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Just sorta skimmed through this thread to get a general idea of what the discussion is centered on and all I kept wondering is when did women being in the kitchen and raising children while the man works become such a reviled thing. Its a system that worked for centuries and in many past and present civilizations.
Modern people are too safe and have way too much fuckin time on their hands and so they invest all kinds of emotions in shit that dont really matter. That Homoculus girl's recent post got me wondering if the women of the hunter/gatherer's societies of the ancient world ever question their role. Probably not, because their survival would have been far more difficult to secure than a modern person's. No modern medicines, no highly organized military, and very primitive tools with which they had use to survive in a harsh world where everything is out to kill them. They wouldn't care as long as whatever system they have helped them to survive.
Gender roles are part of a system of survival even in our time.Its a system that works. Its nothing to demonize or get worked up about. There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker.
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Ugh. It's so hard to resist a terrible argument.
Look at that Wikipedia list. Of the first thirty, how many were born in the 20s and 30s? That is, how many of those people went through grad school before there were any significant increases in women's rights?
(Hint: more than 20.)
Again, I know you don't care about my expertise or my field. I really don't give a damn; I'm used to arrogant, condescending jerks telling me how useless I am after demonstrating how totally uninformed they are about what they were pontificating about. I've told you that a large proportion of the useful contributors in my tiny sub-sub-sub-field are women. I know you don't care, and I get that you don't want to care, but please stop asserting that worst you've been 'brought to a stalemate'. You were 100% flat wrong about ancient Greece, and you know absolutely nothing about the state of modern philosophy. Please stop using it as evidence.
Edit: Also, amusingly, here are the people that are, as far as I know, big names:
Adorno
Althusser
Anscombe
Appiah
Arendt
Ayer
1/3 of those are women. Also, it doesn't include every major philosopher born in the 20th century whose name starts with 'A', and all of them were born prior to 1940 with the exception of Appiah.
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On November 20 2011 06:48 SarR wrote:
Just sorta skimmed through this thread to get a general idea of what the discussion is centered on and all I kept wondering is when did women being in the kitchen and raising children while the man works become such a reviled thing. Its a system that worked for centuries and in many past and present civilizations.
Modern people are too safe and have way too much fuckin time on their hands and so they invest all kinds of emotions in shit that dont really matter. That Homoculus girl's recent post got me wondering if the women of the hunter/gatherer's societies of the ancient world ever question their role. Probably not, because their survival would have been far more difficult to secure than a modern person's. No modern medicines, no highly organized military, and very primitive tools with which they had use to survive in a harsh world where everything is out to kill them.
Gender roles are part of a system of survival even in our time.Its a system that works. Its nothing to demonize or get worked up about. There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker.
There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker, there is something inherently wrong with forcing women to not have the equal choices men have to what kind of lifestyle they want.
Not all women want to be homemakers and not all men want to have the responsibility of working, some like taking care of their children and some are fulfilled that way.
The question is choice, women should be given equal choice and civil rights as their counterparts
The rest of your post is purely cynicism and ridiculous. Modern times doesn't have too much free time on their hands, they just have enough tools and technology to open up more opportunities and lifestyles for different kinds of family and no longer the nuclear family, hence a more flexible and diverse ways of living for all genders and races.
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On November 20 2011 06:48 SarR wrote:
Just sorta skimmed through this thread to get a general idea of what the discussion is centered on and all I kept wondering is when did women being in the kitchen and raising children while the man works become such a reviled thing. Its a system that worked for centuries and in many past and present civilizations.
Modern people are too safe and have way too much fuckin time on their hands and so they invest all kinds of emotions in shit that dont really matter. That Homoculus girl's recent post got me wondering if the women of the hunter/gatherer's societies of the ancient world ever question their role. Probably not, because their survival would have been far more difficult to secure than a modern person's. No modern medicines, no highly organized military, and very primitive tools with which they had use to survive in a harsh world where everything is out to kill them. They wouldn't care as long as whatever system they have helped them to survive.
Gender roles are part of a system of survival even in our time.Its a system that works. Its nothing to demonize or get worked up about. There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker.
And in a world where getting eaten by bears and saber toothed tigers was a daily hazard, perhaps such distinctions made sense. But in a modern society? Slavery got shit done too, but it clearly violates the rights of other human beings. On what basis in today's world should we still decide that women should stay home and cook/clean?
May I ask, when was the last time you brought down a mastodon? Are such divisions of social roles still necessary?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker *by choice*. She should not feel like it's her obligation or only option in life.
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On November 20 2011 06:35 djbhINDI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 05:55 Haemonculus wrote:Men aren't as good at raising kids? Women are *naturally* better at cooking and cleaning, and so it makes sense that they should do it? What are you basing this on? I would seriously LOVE to hear any factual basis for why women would be more naturally apt at *cleaning*. On a completely unrelated note pertaining to hunter-gatherer societies, the meat men brought back accounted for roughly 15-20% of the caloric intake of the band. The vast majority of food eaten by the band would be provided by the women's labour, in addition to taking care of and raising the children. Again I feel that you are *completely* ignoring socialization and its effect on gender roles. We aren't raised the same as men. Feel free to address anything in my previous post on page 5. Take a look at some images from popular cultures from as recent as 50 years ago. Images and messages like this permeated *every* aspect of society for generations and generations. When my mother was little, teachers used to tell all the girls in class to make sure they were wearing fresh underwear every day in case they had to go to the doctor, (because periods are gross and you should be immaculate every day). There was an old woman in my neighborhood growing up whom lived to be almost 100. I used to do housework for her because she was all old and such, and we talked about a lot. Her husband used to beat her when she was my age, (and this was socially acceptable at the time), and forbade her from ever learning to drive. Watch some old 50's TV shows. Lucy and Ethel routinely get out of shenanigans by saying "My husband is Ricky Ricardo!" In one episode, the police even call Ricky to ask him if he's aware that his wife is out in the city by herself. This is the kind of shit that used to permeate every aspect of our society. How can you say the women who grew up in such a culture are going to accomplish the same as men? Men are told to reach for the stars from the day they're born. 40 years ago, young girls would be told that their options in life were limited to actress, model, nurse, or housewife. Take a look at some of this stuff: + Show Spoiler +And a quick google search will find thousands more pictures like this. This used to be pop-culture reality. Generations and generations of women are taught from a very early age that their place is in the kitchen/bedroom, and that their most important attribute is their appearance. Now I understand that your point is that this is *because* we are naturally inferior at the important things in life, but my point is that many of us were never given a chance. Even today pressures to get married and have kids cause many women to reconsider higher education. Social stigma against single women still exists. I honestly feel you're completely ignorant of the realities of life for many women 50 years ago, and thousands of years ago. Consensual marriage and sex is a relatively modern invention. Before the advent of affordable and accessible birth control, women had very little control over their reproductive lives. Are men really simply "worse" at raising kids? Or has this simply been repeated over and over in pop culture, commercials, and sitcoms so many times that you believe it? Haha, those pictures were pretty funny! (I'm also done with this conversation, I'm not taking anymore risks and it seems nobody will consider an opinion that isn't completely correlative to what they taught was the "correct" way to think about people before spewing nonsensical profanity at it). I'm not sure what you're trying to prove; pop culture is a reflection of current societal values which reinforce said values. Maybe it's a vicious cycle, but we didn't get battleship covers from aliens or anything. Whatevs yo, nobody in 6 pages has refuted any of my arguments save one nitpicky philosophy guy who brought one point to somewhat of a stalemate. I'm bored explaining the same things over and over and getting the same, nonresponsive 'rebuttals'.
Yes, I was incredibly profane when asking you to give me even a single reason as to why women might be natural born housewives.
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Oh, he got banned. Pity that he's going to blame it on liberal, PC oppression rather than general asshattery, but still somewhat satisfying.
Thanks mods!
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On November 20 2011 06:56 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:35 djbhINDI wrote:On November 20 2011 05:55 Haemonculus wrote:Men aren't as good at raising kids? Women are *naturally* better at cooking and cleaning, and so it makes sense that they should do it? What are you basing this on? I would seriously LOVE to hear any factual basis for why women would be more naturally apt at *cleaning*. On a completely unrelated note pertaining to hunter-gatherer societies, the meat men brought back accounted for roughly 15-20% of the caloric intake of the band. The vast majority of food eaten by the band would be provided by the women's labour, in addition to taking care of and raising the children. Again I feel that you are *completely* ignoring socialization and its effect on gender roles. We aren't raised the same as men. Feel free to address anything in my previous post on page 5. Take a look at some images from popular cultures from as recent as 50 years ago. Images and messages like this permeated *every* aspect of society for generations and generations. When my mother was little, teachers used to tell all the girls in class to make sure they were wearing fresh underwear every day in case they had to go to the doctor, (because periods are gross and you should be immaculate every day). There was an old woman in my neighborhood growing up whom lived to be almost 100. I used to do housework for her because she was all old and such, and we talked about a lot. Her husband used to beat her when she was my age, (and this was socially acceptable at the time), and forbade her from ever learning to drive. Watch some old 50's TV shows. Lucy and Ethel routinely get out of shenanigans by saying "My husband is Ricky Ricardo!" In one episode, the police even call Ricky to ask him if he's aware that his wife is out in the city by herself. This is the kind of shit that used to permeate every aspect of our society. How can you say the women who grew up in such a culture are going to accomplish the same as men? Men are told to reach for the stars from the day they're born. 40 years ago, young girls would be told that their options in life were limited to actress, model, nurse, or housewife. Take a look at some of this stuff: + Show Spoiler +And a quick google search will find thousands more pictures like this. This used to be pop-culture reality. Generations and generations of women are taught from a very early age that their place is in the kitchen/bedroom, and that their most important attribute is their appearance. Now I understand that your point is that this is *because* we are naturally inferior at the important things in life, but my point is that many of us were never given a chance. Even today pressures to get married and have kids cause many women to reconsider higher education. Social stigma against single women still exists. I honestly feel you're completely ignorant of the realities of life for many women 50 years ago, and thousands of years ago. Consensual marriage and sex is a relatively modern invention. Before the advent of affordable and accessible birth control, women had very little control over their reproductive lives. Are men really simply "worse" at raising kids? Or has this simply been repeated over and over in pop culture, commercials, and sitcoms so many times that you believe it? Haha, those pictures were pretty funny! (I'm also done with this conversation, I'm not taking anymore risks and it seems nobody will consider an opinion that isn't completely correlative to what they taught was the "correct" way to think about people before spewing nonsensical profanity at it). I'm not sure what you're trying to prove; pop culture is a reflection of current societal values which reinforce said values. Maybe it's a vicious cycle, but we didn't get battleship covers from aliens or anything. Whatevs yo, nobody in 6 pages has refuted any of my arguments save one nitpicky philosophy guy who brought one point to somewhat of a stalemate. I'm bored explaining the same things over and over and getting the same, nonresponsive 'rebuttals'. Yes, I was incredibly profane when asking you to give me even a single reason as to why women might be natural born housewives.
Why, it's due to the larger basin of matured women and their underdeveloped shoulders (comparable to men, who have broad square shoulders). This allows women to bend over more appropriately to put uncooked meats in the oven since their hips gives a better, heavier foundation so they don't topple over.
In addition, their lack of broad shoulders makes them more flexible and thus have an easier time cleaning in those more difficult areas such as behind the fridge, under the couch and the ceiling fan's blades.
How could you not know this?
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On November 20 2011 06:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker, there is something inherently wrong with forcing women to not have the equal choices men have to what kind of lifestyle they want.
Nothing was forced on them. It just fell into place and got accepted as the norm.
On November 20 2011 06:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
The rest of your post is purely cynicism and ridiculous. Modern times doesn't have too much free time on their hands, they just have enough tools and technology to open up more opportunities and lifestyles for different kinds of family and no longer the nuclear family, hence a more flexible and diverse ways of living for all genders and races.
This modern iPod Blackberry Facebook generation do have too much time on their hands and use it to complain about all types of bullshit.
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On November 20 2011 07:00 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:56 Haemonculus wrote:On November 20 2011 06:35 djbhINDI wrote:On November 20 2011 05:55 Haemonculus wrote:Men aren't as good at raising kids? Women are *naturally* better at cooking and cleaning, and so it makes sense that they should do it? What are you basing this on? I would seriously LOVE to hear any factual basis for why women would be more naturally apt at *cleaning*. On a completely unrelated note pertaining to hunter-gatherer societies, the meat men brought back accounted for roughly 15-20% of the caloric intake of the band. The vast majority of food eaten by the band would be provided by the women's labour, in addition to taking care of and raising the children. Again I feel that you are *completely* ignoring socialization and its effect on gender roles. We aren't raised the same as men. Feel free to address anything in my previous post on page 5. Take a look at some images from popular cultures from as recent as 50 years ago. Images and messages like this permeated *every* aspect of society for generations and generations. When my mother was little, teachers used to tell all the girls in class to make sure they were wearing fresh underwear every day in case they had to go to the doctor, (because periods are gross and you should be immaculate every day). There was an old woman in my neighborhood growing up whom lived to be almost 100. I used to do housework for her because she was all old and such, and we talked about a lot. Her husband used to beat her when she was my age, (and this was socially acceptable at the time), and forbade her from ever learning to drive. Watch some old 50's TV shows. Lucy and Ethel routinely get out of shenanigans by saying "My husband is Ricky Ricardo!" In one episode, the police even call Ricky to ask him if he's aware that his wife is out in the city by herself. This is the kind of shit that used to permeate every aspect of our society. How can you say the women who grew up in such a culture are going to accomplish the same as men? Men are told to reach for the stars from the day they're born. 40 years ago, young girls would be told that their options in life were limited to actress, model, nurse, or housewife. Take a look at some of this stuff: + Show Spoiler +And a quick google search will find thousands more pictures like this. This used to be pop-culture reality. Generations and generations of women are taught from a very early age that their place is in the kitchen/bedroom, and that their most important attribute is their appearance. Now I understand that your point is that this is *because* we are naturally inferior at the important things in life, but my point is that many of us were never given a chance. Even today pressures to get married and have kids cause many women to reconsider higher education. Social stigma against single women still exists. I honestly feel you're completely ignorant of the realities of life for many women 50 years ago, and thousands of years ago. Consensual marriage and sex is a relatively modern invention. Before the advent of affordable and accessible birth control, women had very little control over their reproductive lives. Are men really simply "worse" at raising kids? Or has this simply been repeated over and over in pop culture, commercials, and sitcoms so many times that you believe it? Haha, those pictures were pretty funny! (I'm also done with this conversation, I'm not taking anymore risks and it seems nobody will consider an opinion that isn't completely correlative to what they taught was the "correct" way to think about people before spewing nonsensical profanity at it). I'm not sure what you're trying to prove; pop culture is a reflection of current societal values which reinforce said values. Maybe it's a vicious cycle, but we didn't get battleship covers from aliens or anything. Whatevs yo, nobody in 6 pages has refuted any of my arguments save one nitpicky philosophy guy who brought one point to somewhat of a stalemate. I'm bored explaining the same things over and over and getting the same, nonresponsive 'rebuttals'. Yes, I was incredibly profane when asking you to give me even a single reason as to why women might be natural born housewives. Why, it's due to the larger basin of matured women and their underdeveloped shoulders (comparable to men, who have broad square shoulders). This allows women to bend over more appropriately to put uncooked meats in the oven since their hips gives a better, heavier foundation so they don't topple over. In addition, their lack of broad shoulders makes them more flexible and thus have an easier time cleaning in those more difficult areas such as behind the fridge, under the couch and the ceiling fan's blades. How could you not know this?
Stfu, MAN. Now get your ass back in the garage and fix my car.
On November 20 2011 08:10 SarR wrote:
Nothing was forced on them. It just fell into place and got accepted as the norm.
What is the difference? In times where women had no other options but to be wives or homemakers, how are they not forced?
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On November 20 2011 08:10 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker, there is something inherently wrong with forcing women to not have the equal choices men have to what kind of lifestyle they want.
Nothing was forced on them. It just fell into place and got accepted as the norm. Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
The rest of your post is purely cynicism and ridiculous. Modern times doesn't have too much free time on their hands, they just have enough tools and technology to open up more opportunities and lifestyles for different kinds of family and no longer the nuclear family, hence a more flexible and diverse ways of living for all genders and races. This modern iPod Blackberry Facebook generation do have too much time on their hands and use it to complain about all types of bullshit.
You really have no idea what you are talking about and if it wasn't forced, why can't they want equal choices and opportunities. It was an accepted norm back then because there was a falsehood of scientific basis to what women were good for or capable of doing (biologically, smaller physical brains meant people were dumber, which is entirely false and laughable). Now that we can see that biologically, women are equally, if not more (see China) capable to reach the same levels of intelligence or cooperation with society as a contributor to the marketplace, there is no reason to stick with those norms.
Tradition isn't always the way to go. Conflict theory in Sociology dictates that the world can't progress if it isn't constantly changing. To withhold women the rights to be equal as a person and not equal to men (because no comparison should be made socially speaking) is holding back society's right to technological advancements along with medicine, foreign political ties etc.
Conflict theories are perspectives in social science that emphasize the social, political or material inequality of a social group, that critique the broad socio-political system, or that otherwise detract from structural functionalism and ideological conservativism. Conflict theories draw attention to power differentials, such as class conflict, and generally contrast historically dominant ideologies.
This modern iPod Blackberry Facebook generation do have too much time on their hands and use it to complain about all types of bullshit.
That's cute, because this has been a battle since the 30s and then 60s and so on. So... which generation are you referring to or do you just enjoy making sweeping generalizations on generations based on convenient technologies that you personally dislike.
What a joke, honestly.
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On November 20 2011 06:48 SarR wrote:
Its a system that worked for centuries and in many past and present civilizations.
Its a system that works. Its nothing to demonize or get worked up about. There is nothing wrong with a woman being a homemaker.
Name one patriarchal civilization that worked better than modern time non-patriarchal first world democracies. Really, just one. Not restricting women's rights is a pretty good thing - and if they want to be a homemaker, then that's fine by me.
We live more comfortably than ever. If you figure that it worked back then based on the fact that we didn't go extinct, that's pretty funny, really. Just look at how terrible their quality of life was and try to make the argument that everything was so great back then.
On November 20 2011 08:10 SarR wrote:
Nothing was forced on them. It just fell into place and got accepted as the norm.
At first it fell into place - perhaps for convenience. Then it was forced onto them because "the norm" was comfortable to males which were stronger and more educated because of "the norm". Vicious circle that kept women down for thousands of years.
Note: lol at the crazy person getting banned on the other page... he's probably pretty convinced that his argumentation actually was sound -_-
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A lot of people don't know the difference between being treated equally and being treated the same.
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On November 20 2011 09:20 Djzapz wrote:
Name one patriarchal civilization that worked better than modern time non-patriarchal first world democracies. Really, just one. Not restricting women's rights is a pretty good thing - and if they want to be a homemaker, then that's fine by me.
You're going to have to first define what makes a better society. Is it economic power, or military power or general standard of living. If we are to substitute for a moment, successful in place of better then I submit that Rome, the Ottoman empire, the Russian empire and the various dynasties of ancient China were all massively successful political entities in their respective time periods and all were patriarchal societies. Note that while women in these societies didnt have much in terms of political power or any kind of significant power, that their roles in these various societies were important.
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What women want and what women says they want are very different things.
Once you understand that, you understand all.
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Osaka27174 Posts
On November 19 2011 00:42 Nytefish wrote:
I think it's fair for insurance companies to give lower rates to female drivers. But then you also have to be consistent in other areas. When comparing two identical candidates for a job (except for their gender) it seems to be reasonably logical to give the woman a lower wage, or hire the man, because of the chance that she may go on maternity leave.
You know men can go on maternity leave too right?
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On November 20 2011 14:36 haduken wrote:
What women want and what women says they want are very different things.
Once you understand that, you understand all.
Yep, always this.
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On November 20 2011 14:15 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 09:20 Djzapz wrote:
Name one patriarchal civilization that worked better than modern time non-patriarchal first world democracies. Really, just one. Not restricting women's rights is a pretty good thing - and if they want to be a homemaker, then that's fine by me.
You're going to have to first define what makes a better society. Is it economic power, or military power or general standard of living. If we are to substitute for a moment, successful in place of better then I submit that Rome, the Ottoman empire, the Russian empire and the various dynasties of ancient China were all massively successful political entities in their respective time periods and all were patriarchal societies. Note that while women in these societies didnt have much in terms of political power or any kind of significant power, that their roles in these various societies were important.
And slaves were incredibly crucial to the economic development of the early US. Sure they might have not had any rights or freedom, but the US needed cheap labor and this class of people served that function. They were very important.
If you read any pro-slavery propaganda from the 17 and 1800's, you'll see that the authors make the exact same arguments you're making. It's for their own good, they're actually very happy in slavery, they don't know anything different, they provide a needed function to the country, they simply aren't capable of freedom, etc.
On November 20 2011 14:46 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:36 haduken wrote:
What women want and what women says they want are very different things.
Once you understand that, you understand all. Yep, always this.
Sigh. "Don't tell me what you want, let me tell you what you want, because you clearly can't make the correct decisions for yourself."
How does this shit still fly?
And regardless of what your little quote says, please tell me the practical implications of your reasoning. Do we all secretly want to be oppressed, but we're just too shy to come out and say it, and thus gender stratification is good? What's your point?
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On November 20 2011 06:48 SarR wrote:
Just sorta skimmed through this thread to get a general idea of what the discussion is centered on and all I kept wondering is when did women being in the kitchen and raising children while the man works become such a reviled thing. Its a system that worked for centuries and in many past and present civilizations.
Define "worked." Looking at the history of various "civilizations" and the sorry state of the world today, how can you say that this system works, exactly?
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In my own personal experiences I know more girls who have had or do have DUIs right now like over 8 at least. In fact I know a girl who has at least 5 or 6 of them and is in jail AGAIN for dui. I think maybe only like 1 dude ive known has had a DUI and my ex's uncle or something.
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On November 20 2011 14:46 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:36 haduken wrote:
What women want and what women says they want are very different things.
Once you understand that, you understand all. Yep, always this.
You're an idiot. Female biology isn't so different from men's that they're completely illogical. Women know what women want as well as men know what men want. Our brains are far more similar than dissimilar.
The purpose of a generalisation like yours is simply to make you feel like your sexist attitude is OK. It's not based on any evidence at all.
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