On October 30 2011 00:19 2WeaK wrote: My personal feeling is that, the Observers are way better in BW than they are in SC2, they catch things observers in SC2 often miss and as if that wasn't enough, in BW we actually see what the commentators see, the commentators aren't always in their own world looking at stuff they feel like looking at while we're stuck watching something else. Commentators should not be observing IMO.
this is how it worked in Korea
They had 2 different observers, 1 for the mainscreen and 1 for backup The commentators would commentate from the mainscreen perspective while the 2nd screen remained as a backup incase shit hit the fan
This allowed the Korean commentators to stay in contact with the Audience, which really was one of the key things of BW success
imo the foreign casting scene still needs some changes But there are tons of people who would disagree with me (Like 3 Caster Format is much superior than the 2 man format)
then again I understand Korean so most of you won't really know what Im talking about
This is what I meant. I love BW commentating, even though I don't understand Korean, I could tell the commentators weren't so focused on the minimap as much as what's on the main screen (because the observers were taking care of that) and you can tell they're much more into it and they feel surprised when something unexpected happens that the observers caught.
I think a lot of it is just being familiar with what you know. The BW sounds and music all evoke emotion from me, but on the other hand I find comfort in hearing the Protoss sounds and unit lines in SC2. To a lesser extent I think the same can be said for graphics - but I do agree that for a newcomer to spectating, BW units are more distinguishable because of their simpler design.
Great post. Those two reasons are definitely amongst those which keep me away from enjoying to watch SC2. Obviously MBS and spells smartcast also contribute a lot, I'm not sure I need to detail why here.
What also annoys me the most is how everything is so dark and how poor the contrast is. Most maps have a dark gray/dark blue background, just like most units. Except on maps with forest, everything looks dark grayish blueish on a dark grayish blueish background. Where are the shiny yellow protoss units ? It's all surrounded by a useless blue glow now.
The lack of defender's advantage is also bothering.
I've forced myself to watch TSL3 because it's fucking TSL, and I don't need to remind anyone how amazing it was that legends such as Boxer would compete in a TL organized tournament back then. I could totally imagine how the staff who organized it would feel, like an old child dream becoming true... I must say I've honestly never been so bored watching a video game stream. No offense to TSL staff, it seemed that organization was top notch as usual, it was just because of the game itself.
the suspense of dragoons inching their way around siege tanks, suddenly without warning taking a hit BOOM by accident, then scrambling to get back out of the way before the next shot goes off - quick quick quick BOOM...!!
Seriously, if you listen to SC2 zerg sounds you can see that the sound designer almost exclusively used water/liquid based sounds for everything, trying to give it a squelchy, squishy feeling. Which is fine for some units, I can see it working with say Infestors or Hydras but when my zergling attack sounds like wet noodles slapping against the wall, it feels like they are several magnitudes less powerful than they actually are.
I also think that smartcasting is easily the worst single thing in SC2. Spells simply are not all that exciting anymore, both a product of design and smartcasting. Any masters played will pretty much have indistinguishable EMPs/Fungals from the top players. The phrase "Oh some great [spell name]!!" is completely overused and inappropriate simply due to the ease of use of said spell. Forcefields are pretty much the only spell that can be consistently interesting and skillful to watch and use and that is one spell of many.
Also units like the Marauder and Colossus really really kill a lot of enjoyment; in a game where A-move is quite prevalent, these units exemplify almost zero micro required insta-DPS blobs. It frustrates me that TvP (and most P matchups) revolve around these units as it makes them quite boring to watch.
That said, I still consume an obscene amount of SC2 and think it is a embryonic, flawed but growing spectator sport that still has an enormous legacy to contend with in BW, one perhaps it cannot hope to match.
On October 30 2011 00:13 MrHoon wrote: You could also feel this from War2 and War3. Remember how the Footman in War2 Died? "URHURHURHURRAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
That doesn't sound like dying, that sounds like yelling.
and in War3 "urf *clank*"
Now that's more realistic.
I agree the tournament organizers could take a look at their sound options in SC2.
well as u can see there's more to it than sounds (as people migrate from talking about sounds)
the root of it is "exciting things" and some sounds are more exciting than others, some game mechanics are more exciting than others, some graphics are more exciting than others (lookin at you stalker), and so on..
i can openly agree with BW sounds being cooler than SC2 but i am still 99% reserved about saying anything against mechanics and gameplay until the game develops to its potentially unseen potential. if smartcasting psi-storm leads to people being able to devote their focus to performing epic micro with another unit in the battle then maybe it turns out to be a good thing
i guess some of the pros must have a pretty strong opinion about this but im not well-informed (watch sotg sometimes)
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
On October 30 2011 03:47 phiinix wrote: so.... sc2 isn't a spectator sport because of it's sounds?....
I sure as hell don't watch tennis for the sounds, grunting and squeaking isn't an orchestrated symphony by any means. Maybe it is for you though.
It's not like tennis is supposed to have sound effects made by people who worked hundreds of hours on it, and were able to do much better 12 years earlier. Horrible analogy.
While I think SC2 still has a lot of unexplored potential as a spectator sport, I do agree that sometimes all the dark palates and shadow effects and everything make it hard to see what's happening on a screen from a casual perspective.
I also agree that the sounds in BW felt so good. Sure, they were probably really low quality and not terribly realistic. But the aesthetic and feel from those sounds just felt right. Hearing those marines go DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA, the DAKA-DAKA-DAKA of zerglings or WHIRRR-WHIRRRR of Carriers just made battles feel so much more vibrant and engaging.
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
This is completely untrue and pretty insulting. If you're never seen a good sc2 tvz, why don't you ask for some vods.
On October 30 2011 03:47 phiinix wrote: so.... sc2 isn't a spectator sport because of it's sounds?....
I sure as hell don't watch tennis for the sounds, grunting and squeaking isn't an orchestrated symphony by any means. Maybe it is for you though.
It's not like tennis is supposed to have sound effects made by people who worked hundreds of hours on it, and were able to do much better 12 years earlier. Horrible analogy.
The analogy is that for him sounds don't matter at all to enjoy a spot. I don't see how what you said contradicts that.
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
This is completely untrue and pretty insulting. If you're never seen a good sc2 tvz, why don't you ask for some vods.
please tell/show me how it's not true. I would LOVE for it turn out ive just coincidentally only watched boring SC2 matches and the game is actually way better.
For all my criticism of the state of SC2 when I watch MLG and know I am part of a huge online crowd of 100,000+ or hear the insane cheers from Blizzcon I think that there must be something to all this <3
EPT
But there are tons of people who would disagree with me (Like 3 Caster Format is much superior than the 2 man format)
I love BW commentating, even though I don't understand Korean, I could tell the commentators weren't so focused on the minimap as much as what's on the main screen (because the observers were taking care of that) and you can tell they're much more into it and they feel surprised when something unexpected happens that the observers caught.
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