this blog isn't very organised but it's more of some self musing
over the past few months, i've personally played and watched more sc2 games, and i've definitely been impressed by some games, like Nestea vs MVP blizzcon finals, the recent MMA vs MVP GSL finals, and a few GSL finals and MLGs before that. however, other than some points that i brought up before, such as better casters which has been resolved (thank you OGN for your commentating and the doom zooms), the game itself still has two main aspects that comes to my mind which is preventing it from becoming a more enjoyable spectator sport, some of which i hope can be resolved or looked into.
first is the graphics. i have nothing against how the units look like, but as always, it's hard to distinguish units especially when it's in a ball. units feel like they're one single entity, so it's not that easy to get excited, though with stuff like marine spread against banelings, etc, it has been a been more pleasing on the eyes. this is the game design, so it won't be possible to change this, but it still is a reason why i'm visually turned off by the game as opposed to watching brood war matches.
the second point is sound. before watching this video (from the point i timestamped), i ask you to close your eyes and pay attention to the sound.
what i hear is crispness. intensity. excitement. every movement, every shot, every stim, every attack, it all blends perfectly into a beautiful symphony. it makes the game feel more alive, unlike all sc2 games were, frankly speaking, everything sounds the same except for banelings exploding. mabe blizzard got lazy and decided to cut cost on the sound effect department, but honestly, i was hoping they'd patch this up soon after release. what happened to the tank siege mode sound from bw? i really miss that in sc2, it was the sound of epicness, the feeling of something serious getting ready to fall on you and deal some hurt. in bw, every unit had distinct sounds, from marines, zerglings, zealots (hell, zealots' attacks sound so good in bw), to dragoons, vultures, tanks etc. in SC2, thor and tank sounds the same, zerglings' attack sound feels like they're just scratching with toothpicks against a brick wall, stalkers' attacks sound so bland, and so on. and i'm not talking about just their attacks, i'm talking about their voice acting, as well as death sounds (dragoons, zealots, lurkers, marines, ghosts, medics and... ok actually everything sound so good when they die) well, let's just hope they do so soon :s
SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
On October 29 2011 21:05 Skilledblob wrote: SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
i don't really agree with that. in SC2, the units really tend to stick right next to each other, that's why it's slightly harder to distinguish. combine that with a more zoomed out view, units feel smaller, things look and are more crammed up
On October 29 2011 21:05 Skilledblob wrote: SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
Let's suppose you have really fast hand speed and moving many control groups is almost instantaneous such that it makes no difference how many units are being moved.
The sounds are so mediocre in SC2. Ultralisks attacks are some kind of stupid scissor, and the marine machinegun sounds like a fucking peashooter, not to mention the voices, and all the zerg unit deaths that just sound like poo.
Battles also look like crap. Not just because units don't look cool, but because of the ball syndrom.
oh wow my mind is blown. I read the title and expected something entirely different.
You may have a point though. The ball effect of SC2 units have been discussed to death already since the beta. The sound never struck my mind. I've just taken it for granted. It may be a bit exaggerated to claim that the game is not viewerfriendly cause of the sound though
I think skill ceiling is mentioned way too much by people trying to explain why (they believe) SC2 is not as good a game/esport as BW.
Sound effects, the importance of positional battles (spider mines, lurkers, etc.), harrass potential, micromanagement diversity, battle epicness potential (more than a few seconds that is) are so many things that I, personally, don't find as satisfying in the sequel.
And among them sound effects are like the simplest thing ever Blizzard could adjust.
I like these posts because I love BW but it's like describing the sun to people who have lived in caves their whole lives. The better you describe it the more they are going to deny you and your anti cave dwelling lies. I mean a giant ball of fire 90 million miles away that casts brilliant warm light on everything? Come on, dude.
On October 29 2011 21:23 floor exercise wrote: I like these posts because I love BW but it's like describing the sun to people who have lived in caves their whole lives. The better you describe it the more they are going to deny you and your anti cave dwelling lies. I mean a giant ball of fire 90 million miles away that casts brilliant warm light on everything? Come on, dude.
Looks like someone's being forced to read Plato in school.
But still, look at the spectator numbers, it is what it is. SC2 is newer and shinier, has more money, more foreign casting talent to make it exciting. Somewhere a lot of people decided the tradeoffs make SC2 the more appealing game to watch. Be glad SC2 is what it is, things can be a lot worse.
Comparatively, I can grieve about Quake being edged out by newer, shittier FPS games like Halo and CoD, but apparently most people would still rather watch Halo and CoD. That's presumably where the money is. SC2 is nowhere near as bad compared to Halo or CoD for FPS games.
I think there's more that. A lot of the units seem mechanically less interesting. Scouge are so much fun! It’s really hard to split them and so satisfying when you hit Coursairs with 2 Scouge each instead of pilling into the first one. Also Muta’s are epic fun to micro in Broodwar. It’s a skill that just doesn't exist in SC2. Shuttle-Reaver, the little almost miny game of Scouge vs Science Vessels in ZvT (of course it’s incredibly important not just the little fun side show it can look like sometimes). Spider mine's the list goes on. Its almost like everything fun got removed.
Most of the new units don't add anything to the game. Banerlings are the possibly the only exception. But they don't make up for the dullness of no Muta micro, no Scouge, no Defiler swarm. Playing Zerg is just really boring now, so I stopped and went back to Broodwar.
edit: I didn't discuss sound at all. The sound of a proper live Broodwar match been played in real life is so intense. For me the excitement is probably made a lot more intense by watching from home for years and finally actually been there for real in Yongsan or rest in peace Mullae LOOX's. But it’s hard to describe how powerful the sound and atmosphere of a real Broodwar game is.
Powerful and almost without fail great metal fills the studio accompanied by the light chatter and sense of anticipation as everyone’s eagerly awaiting the game. Maybe a scream from the girls as a player is spotted setting up. Then the commentators start yelling out their greetings as the TV audience joins and the crowd filling the excitement greet the TV audience too. Beep, beep beep the magic count down begins and the crowd yells out for their favourite player. The magical Broodwar soundtrack fills the room along with the commentators (seemingly mystical since I don't speak much Korean) banter an introduction of the players locations and what's going to happen. The crowd just starting to settle down hear the first action as a probe is engaged by the lings Thump, Thump,Thump the sound of a ling through a very powerful speaker system.
Its hard to put how magical Broodwar feels in real life. I admit to been biased but SC2 matches I have been to don't compare. Less atmosphere, less intense commentary, less exciting players, less exciting game play. This is my opinion.
edit 2: Why the hell can't I embed this dam I'm getting old I can't work computers any more. Anyway here' a count down from an OSL game. I think It's Stork Vs Hiya so much passion. http://www.facebook.com/v/491311851133=player_embedded
What I agree with the most is SOUND. Overall, the sounds in SC2 are truly underwhelming. I mean:
-SC2 stim v/s BW stim: Such a simple thing, but in BW it sounds like a true junkie. -SC2 ultras v/s BW ultras: Scissor strike?... meh... -SC2 carriers v/s BW carriers: From interceptor launch to fire, BW sounds much stronger -SC2 zerglings v/s BW zerglings: I don't know if it was THAT appropriate in BW, but it sounded more characteristic, you just know this is a zergling and this is how it must sound.
I could carry on, but the point is made. Sound in BW just made every unit have a more solid identity, and a personality of its own, SC2 sounds are just too generic and bland. Music is fine though.
As for the skill ceiling thing... meh... SC2 skill ceiling isn't close to being reached. Remember, nobody though the things pros do in BW were even possible until they figured it out
The worst thing about spectating sc2 for me is the health bars on units. Oddly,I'm one of the few sc2 fans that think so.I think the health bars,production bar should all be turned off when the game is being cast. Might be just a personal preference tho.
On October 29 2011 21:11 Archvil3 wrote: oh wow my mind is blown. I read the title and expected something entirely different.
You may have a point though. The ball effect of SC2 units have been discussed to death already since the beta. The sound never struck my mind. I've just taken it for granted. It may be a bit exaggerated to claim that the game is not viewerfriendly cause of the sound though
i didn't call it being not viewerfriendly
it's just that sounds are a key aspect in making the game greater than it can, and without it, the game's full potential as an enjoyable sport will not be unlocked
On October 29 2011 21:42 TheKefka wrote: The worst thing about spectating sc2 for me is the health bars on units. Oddly,I'm one of the few sc2 fans that think so.I think the health bars,production bar should all be turned off when the game is being cast. Might be just a personal preference tho.
So much this. I HATE watching sc2 and the only thing you actually see is a bunch of healthbars going down. it's like a 200/200 zerg and a 200/200 terran army clash in an all out skirmish, you see a fuckton of healthbars but can't really see who's winning.
i find it amusing to listen to casters go "and it looks like this zerg will come out on top" and two seconds later "and the terran holds!!!!". makes you go like "wat".
On October 29 2011 21:05 Skilledblob wrote: SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
Hardly. It's a matter of play, not technical limitations. All of the top players in BW would be unlikely to put all that many more units into one group anyway, even if they were able to, precisely because it causes lack of control and inevitable balling/clumping. That's just asking to be picked off by tanks and storms. That's one of the weaknesses of large control groups that is commonly stated in threads regarding SC2 micro: even the top players currently only use 2 or 3 groups, when they could be using 7 or 8 for more refined and precise control. Who cares if those groups only have 5 units each? It's a million times better than having 1 group of 40 units all balling up and getting destroyed by AOE.
On October 29 2011 21:37 mordk wrote: -SC2 stim v/s BW stim: Such a simple thing, but in BW it sounds like a true junkie.
I don't think that Blizzard wants to send the image that bio terran units are junkies doing drugs...That sends a bad image to the viewers and people might think that Blizzard is encouraging the use of drugs.
On October 29 2011 21:37 mordk wrote: -SC2 stim v/s BW stim: Such a simple thing, but in BW it sounds like a true junkie.
I don't think that Blizzard wants to send the image that bio terran units are junkies doing drugs...That sends a bad image to the viewers and people might think that Blizzard is encouraging the use of drugs.
Stim in BW sounds like it's actually dangerous, and in the sense of drugs are bad for your health yO Pretty much every sound is more pronounced in BW for some reason, and if you're already accustomed to listening to that, SC2 sounds seem kind of bland.
On October 29 2011 22:00 T.O.P. wrote: You just miss the Korean commentators.
I know I do t.t I dislike knowing EVERYTHING that is happening in the game before the commentators say it because of the production tab. No other sport you watch will you know the play before the commentator lol (very rarely anyway)
I think what's missing most sound-wise from SC2 is the fanatical fans and their fighting chant at the start of the game. That is so awesome to listen to.
Strangely enough, NASL finals were 10x more interesting when the projectors were broken. The production tab + food count couldn't be seen so that when 25 broodlords popped out of nowhere, the days of BW seemed to return.. T_T
I never really noticed, but the sound is definitely an issue for me in SC2. I felt like I could understand the role of a unit by its sound. Now, peashooter marines do more DPS than their sound effect suggests and it's just confusing.
On October 29 2011 22:42 hazelynut wrote: Strangely enough, NASL finals were 10x more interesting when the projectors were broken. The production tab + food count couldn't be seen so that when 25 broodlords popped out of nowhere, the days of BW seemed to return.. T_T
I never really noticed, but the sound is definitely an issue for me in SC2. I felt like I could understand the role of a unit by its sound. Now, peashooter marines do more DPS than their sound effect suggests and it's just confusing.
I agree so much on the sound part. I miss archons attacks sounds, cracklings attacks sounds, hydras attack sounds so much...
SC2: *bkajd Ptew *cough*cough* ugh let me lie down for a minute sorry I have laryngitis*
Same thing happened IMO from Halo 1 to 2 and 3, especially with the assault rifle. Halo 1 weapons had soooooo much more impact to the sound (And not just rumble lol) it is actually unbelievable. I was actually a bit pissed off when I played Halo 3 because things looked shiny but none of the weapons felt powerful, even the rocket launcher. Then they gimped assault rifle from 60 --> 32 rounds but thats something different lol
On October 29 2011 22:42 hazelynut wrote: I never really noticed, but the sound is definitely an issue for me in SC2. I felt like I could understand the role of a unit by its sound. Now, peashooter marines do more DPS than their sound effect suggests and it's just confusing.
So much this. It's so weird if I play BW, then play a game of SC2. It's like my units aren't doing any damage. Lings, Hydras, Mutas, all of them when I hear them in BW I feel that damage, in SC2 it's like what? The blog is spot on. 5\5
Ever since SC2 first came out I distinctly remember alot of BW fans had issues with the voices of the units in general.
Everything in BW just sounded incredibly unique. Each character had their own voice, their own characteristics and even the death sounds all sounded different. Even if you were blind, in BW you KNEW which units died and how many just because of their unique death sound.
You could also feel this from War2 and War3. Remember how the Footman in War2 Died? "URHURHURHURRAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" and in War3 "urf *clank*"
My personal feeling is that, the Observers are way better in BW than they are in SC2, they catch things observers in SC2 often miss and as if that wasn't enough, in BW we actually see what the commentators see, the commentators aren't always in their own world looking at stuff they feel like looking at while we're stuck watching something else. Commentators should not be observing IMO.
On October 30 2011 00:19 2WeaK wrote: My personal feeling is that, the Observers are way better in BW than they are in SC2, they catch things observers in SC2 often miss and as if that wasn't enough, in BW we actually see what the commentators see, the commentators aren't always in their own world looking at stuff they feel like looking at while we're stuck watching something else. Commentators should not be observing IMO.
this is how it worked in Korea
They had 2 different observers, 1 for the mainscreen and 1 for backup The commentators would commentate from the mainscreen perspective while the 2nd screen remained as a backup incase shit hit the fan
This allowed the Korean commentators to stay in contact with the Audience, which really was one of the key things of BW success
imo the foreign casting scene still needs some changes But there are tons of people who would disagree with me (Like 3 Caster Format is much superior than the 2 man format)
then again I understand Korean so most of you won't really know what Im talking about
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
On October 29 2011 21:05 Skilledblob wrote: SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
Incorrect. In SC1 you can actually surpass the unit selection cap with a hack, and even when manipulating armies on a 1 control group basis, they never conglomerate to the extent that SC2 armies do.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about SC2 as a spectator sport.
How much longer will the skill ceiling be pushed in SC2 before the metagames and builds just go round and round? Has the golden era of high rate discoveries and innovations (e.g, unit micro, metagaming shifts, builds and special tactics) already ended? Will the esports scene stagnant in the coming years? Will the masses rashly switch over to HotS? So many questions, so little answers one year on.
TL;DR - skill ceiling, the pool of possible strategies within the game in its entirety being too small and HotS
I don't like the sounds. I don't like the animation either. Everything feels really flimsy in the game in terms of being fun to watch.
It's fun to play, but it just doesn't seem fun to watch. All of the sounds probably have a LOT to do with it. All of my units and abilities just sound inferior.
On October 30 2011 00:19 2WeaK wrote: My personal feeling is that, the Observers are way better in BW than they are in SC2, they catch things observers in SC2 often miss and as if that wasn't enough, in BW we actually see what the commentators see, the commentators aren't always in their own world looking at stuff they feel like looking at while we're stuck watching something else. Commentators should not be observing IMO.
this is how it worked in Korea
They had 2 different observers, 1 for the mainscreen and 1 for backup The commentators would commentate from the mainscreen perspective while the 2nd screen remained as a backup incase shit hit the fan
This allowed the Korean commentators to stay in contact with the Audience, which really was one of the key things of BW success
imo the foreign casting scene still needs some changes But there are tons of people who would disagree with me (Like 3 Caster Format is much superior than the 2 man format)
then again I understand Korean so most of you won't really know what Im talking about
This is what I meant. I love BW commentating, even though I don't understand Korean, I could tell the commentators weren't so focused on the minimap as much as what's on the main screen (because the observers were taking care of that) and you can tell they're much more into it and they feel surprised when something unexpected happens that the observers caught.
I think a lot of it is just being familiar with what you know. The BW sounds and music all evoke emotion from me, but on the other hand I find comfort in hearing the Protoss sounds and unit lines in SC2. To a lesser extent I think the same can be said for graphics - but I do agree that for a newcomer to spectating, BW units are more distinguishable because of their simpler design.
Great post. Those two reasons are definitely amongst those which keep me away from enjoying to watch SC2. Obviously MBS and spells smartcast also contribute a lot, I'm not sure I need to detail why here.
What also annoys me the most is how everything is so dark and how poor the contrast is. Most maps have a dark gray/dark blue background, just like most units. Except on maps with forest, everything looks dark grayish blueish on a dark grayish blueish background. Where are the shiny yellow protoss units ? It's all surrounded by a useless blue glow now.
The lack of defender's advantage is also bothering.
I've forced myself to watch TSL3 because it's fucking TSL, and I don't need to remind anyone how amazing it was that legends such as Boxer would compete in a TL organized tournament back then. I could totally imagine how the staff who organized it would feel, like an old child dream becoming true... I must say I've honestly never been so bored watching a video game stream. No offense to TSL staff, it seemed that organization was top notch as usual, it was just because of the game itself.
the suspense of dragoons inching their way around siege tanks, suddenly without warning taking a hit BOOM by accident, then scrambling to get back out of the way before the next shot goes off - quick quick quick BOOM...!!
Seriously, if you listen to SC2 zerg sounds you can see that the sound designer almost exclusively used water/liquid based sounds for everything, trying to give it a squelchy, squishy feeling. Which is fine for some units, I can see it working with say Infestors or Hydras but when my zergling attack sounds like wet noodles slapping against the wall, it feels like they are several magnitudes less powerful than they actually are.
I also think that smartcasting is easily the worst single thing in SC2. Spells simply are not all that exciting anymore, both a product of design and smartcasting. Any masters played will pretty much have indistinguishable EMPs/Fungals from the top players. The phrase "Oh some great [spell name]!!" is completely overused and inappropriate simply due to the ease of use of said spell. Forcefields are pretty much the only spell that can be consistently interesting and skillful to watch and use and that is one spell of many.
Also units like the Marauder and Colossus really really kill a lot of enjoyment; in a game where A-move is quite prevalent, these units exemplify almost zero micro required insta-DPS blobs. It frustrates me that TvP (and most P matchups) revolve around these units as it makes them quite boring to watch.
That said, I still consume an obscene amount of SC2 and think it is a embryonic, flawed but growing spectator sport that still has an enormous legacy to contend with in BW, one perhaps it cannot hope to match.
On October 30 2011 00:13 MrHoon wrote: You could also feel this from War2 and War3. Remember how the Footman in War2 Died? "URHURHURHURRAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
That doesn't sound like dying, that sounds like yelling.
and in War3 "urf *clank*"
Now that's more realistic.
I agree the tournament organizers could take a look at their sound options in SC2.
well as u can see there's more to it than sounds (as people migrate from talking about sounds)
the root of it is "exciting things" and some sounds are more exciting than others, some game mechanics are more exciting than others, some graphics are more exciting than others (lookin at you stalker), and so on..
i can openly agree with BW sounds being cooler than SC2 but i am still 99% reserved about saying anything against mechanics and gameplay until the game develops to its potentially unseen potential. if smartcasting psi-storm leads to people being able to devote their focus to performing epic micro with another unit in the battle then maybe it turns out to be a good thing
i guess some of the pros must have a pretty strong opinion about this but im not well-informed (watch sotg sometimes)
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
On October 30 2011 03:47 phiinix wrote: so.... sc2 isn't a spectator sport because of it's sounds?....
I sure as hell don't watch tennis for the sounds, grunting and squeaking isn't an orchestrated symphony by any means. Maybe it is for you though.
It's not like tennis is supposed to have sound effects made by people who worked hundreds of hours on it, and were able to do much better 12 years earlier. Horrible analogy.
While I think SC2 still has a lot of unexplored potential as a spectator sport, I do agree that sometimes all the dark palates and shadow effects and everything make it hard to see what's happening on a screen from a casual perspective.
I also agree that the sounds in BW felt so good. Sure, they were probably really low quality and not terribly realistic. But the aesthetic and feel from those sounds just felt right. Hearing those marines go DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA, the DAKA-DAKA-DAKA of zerglings or WHIRRR-WHIRRRR of Carriers just made battles feel so much more vibrant and engaging.
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
This is completely untrue and pretty insulting. If you're never seen a good sc2 tvz, why don't you ask for some vods.
On October 30 2011 03:47 phiinix wrote: so.... sc2 isn't a spectator sport because of it's sounds?....
I sure as hell don't watch tennis for the sounds, grunting and squeaking isn't an orchestrated symphony by any means. Maybe it is for you though.
It's not like tennis is supposed to have sound effects made by people who worked hundreds of hours on it, and were able to do much better 12 years earlier. Horrible analogy.
The analogy is that for him sounds don't matter at all to enjoy a spot. I don't see how what you said contradicts that.
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
This is completely untrue and pretty insulting. If you're never seen a good sc2 tvz, why don't you ask for some vods.
please tell/show me how it's not true. I would LOVE for it turn out ive just coincidentally only watched boring SC2 matches and the game is actually way better.
For all my criticism of the state of SC2 when I watch MLG and know I am part of a huge online crowd of 100,000+ or hear the insane cheers from Blizzcon I think that there must be something to all this <3
Just because units blob up and become difficult to see does not automatically make a game unwatchable. For example, American football frequently ends up in a giant mosh-pit, where the fans, and sometimes even officials cannot see what is going on, yet American football is still the largest spectator sport in America.
As for sound, I feel that it is a relatively minor issue, but having more distinctive sounds certainly cannot hurt.
I dunno what everybody's beef with the ling / tank sounds are. Zerglings look awesome when you've got 70+ of them and they're just flooding over a base and eating everything, and the bw "gwaaa" kind of got annoying after awhile. The sound of zealots slicing into lings with that meaty-slushy sound is so gross. Tanks splattering stuff from a distance feels a lot more impressive to me than in BW.
On the other hand, marines...WHY.
Go watch a bio / tank TvT.. EERRR AAAH GRUUU UUUHH EERRR AAAH GRUUU EERRRR AAAH EEERRR UUUHH.
I hate marines enough already as it is, but why did they have to get replace their guns, which made the most iconic sound (other than the supplyblock / minerals / my wife for hire / sieging / so many others) in the Starcraft universe, and then make them sound so stupid when they died...
Go watch a BW ZvT that goes to 4 bases. Ultralisks sweeping over a terran army and pimp-slapping marines, making them yell AAAWAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGH and break into pieces was the best thing in the entire world. I swear, Blizzard's decision making just get's more and more confusing as the years go by.
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
I've never seen a TvZ in sc2 that was nearly as fun to watch as a standard tvz in BW (that makes it to late game at least).
99% of every TvZ in SC2 ive seen this year is just "both players get on 2 base. terran makes marines tanks and medivacs. zerg expands and makes a lot of banelings and zerglings and (either infestors or mutas). 1 fight happens (sometimes 2 or 3). winner wins match.''
the few I've seen with mech were a little more interesting and less prone to just have 1 battle and the game ends (like the blizzcon final game), but still sorta meh. there's just nothing close to all the great parts of bw TvZ in SC2 TvZ (muta micro, marines vs lurkers, dark swarm vs irradiate, scourge vs vessel, etc). and it's not because pros havent learned to do things better, its just that there's nothing there to make it more interesting.
This is completely untrue and pretty insulting. If you're never seen a good sc2 tvz, why don't you ask for some vods.
please tell/show me how it's not true. I would LOVE for it turn out ive just coincidentally only watched boring SC2 matches and the game is actually way better.
I'm looking for my fav matches, there's been a bunch of tvz's where we see long macro play, massive amounts of simultaneous drops, runbys, and technical positional play. I'm not going to say there's been a ton of them (yet), but they do exist. One thing we're not seeing enough of is baneling landmines (but we will, because its good). Also,it's worth noting that none of our current sc2 pros have enough apm to do continual muta harass like bw players, or really come close to doing all the things they should do.
Looking for some games, will post in a sec I can't find any vods because they're all either gsl or mlg games that dont have youtube vids that are good
) Note: terrible caster. Also, this is an old game before zergs used landmines or infestors IMNestea vs Scfou GSL semifinals game series IMNestea vs STVirus GSL daybreak STBomber vs EGIdra mlg orland (all macro games, admittedly not particularly exciting)
There was one really good SC2 game I've watched a while back. I think it was Idra vs MVP in a battle.net match. It kinda convinced me to try out SC2 and I played for some time although I already lost interest and haven't played in months now.
Soooo true. The sound effects are so memorable in BW. I will never forget them even in a hundred years. Also the music. I know that the pros play without music but as a spectator the music was a big part of the atmosphere. The terran theme sends chills down my spine and I have it as a ringtone on my cellphone :D
Audio production and gaming development is very lacking in many games. Its just not Starcraft 2. Many games lack the "oomph" behind what you're doing. For example in Halo 3 the assault rifle made sounds that felt like I was using a peashooter or some shit, I absolutely hated that gun. There are very few games that focus on audio development and one of the best audio production I've ever came across in this modern generation is probably Dead Space and the BF franchise.
Music is a different story by the way, I meant sound production like gunfire. Old bit era music were almost always better and or classics because they were more simple and had a more catchy tune to them. Its just something that works better. That and nostalgia.
Now that you do mention it, yeah the audio is lacking in SC2. But the same could be said for almost every modern games that come out: audio is just not prioritized over eye candy. Its something you don't immediately notice.
On October 30 2011 05:00 Bagration wrote: Just because units blob up and become difficult to see does not automatically make a game unwatchable. For example, American football frequently ends up in a giant mosh-pit, where the fans, and sometimes even officials cannot see what is going on, yet American football is still the largest spectator sport in America.
As for sound, I feel that it is a relatively minor issue, but having more distinctive sounds certainly cannot hurt.
That's not the point. The blobbing up into a ball is a side-effect of putting all your units in 1 or 2 control groups. This means less control of your army overall, and more vulnerability to AOE possibly vaporizing the army in seconds. If players utilized more control groups with less units in each, not only would we get to see units acting independently of each other, which is just far more interesting than 1 giant clump, it could lead to battles that last longer than 10 seconds, and it's just better gameplay overall.
I really dislike all of the zerg sounds (so slimy and squishy), except the one the ovies make when they pop out of the egg. Pop! So cute :D
I just really wish engagements were more interesting and required much more micro. From a spectator POV the most enjoyable thing is watching the battle, but when it just becomes ball vs. ball it's pretty dissatisfying and a lot of stuff just isn't as impressive as BW when people engage. Every time I watch some sort of highlight reel on youtube it's either marine splitting, some gimmicky battle with motherships or neurals, or just one player having more stuff.
On October 29 2011 21:05 Skilledblob wrote: SC1 units would blob up as well if you could get more units into one group. But you cant and that's the only reason why SC1 looks more spread out even though that is just a side effect.
Let's suppose you have really fast hand speed and moving many control groups is almost instantaneous such that it makes no difference how many units are being moved.
Is it even fair to show a video of EVER OSL '09 with Flash in it...because that OSL was fucking ridiculous. Flash just shoved everybody into a trash can and rolled them down the street, that's how dominant he looked then.
On October 30 2011 00:13 MrHoon wrote: Ever since SC2 first came out I distinctly remember alot of BW fans had issues with the voices of the units in general.
Everything in BW just sounded incredibly unique. Each character had their own voice, their own characteristics and even the death sounds all sounded different. Even if you were blind, in BW you KNEW which units died and how many just because of their unique death sound.
You could also feel this from War2 and War3. Remember how the Footman in War2 Died? "URHURHURHURRAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" and in War3 "urf *clank*"
Omg it's the guy that wrote the SC2 in Korea blog :O
I love BW to death but don't diss WC3 like that! Their sounds were still pretty unique and distingushable.
Cmon, Blademaster? OHHHHGGHWOOAHHGHH Tauren? MOOOOOOOooOOOO!! And that Pulverize... Demon Hunter goes AHH *stabs self* YAHHHHHHH
Still heaps better than SC2 sound, and that race music...
On October 30 2011 00:11 TaShadan wrote: sc2 is just boring to watch thats why iam really sad about the fact that pro teams play sc2 now T_T
Well that's not true anymore imo. I would have agreed some months ago, some sc2 games were good to watch but the normal games were not. During this time I was really worried about sc2's "future". Now some matchups are really exciting and nearly as good to watch as a bw matchup (namely TvZ and TvT) Everything that include protoss is still boring tho (that's less true for like one month, but that's still true) so I hope this will change. In fact for the first time I was thinking that sc2 was heading in the good direction, and now I fear the expansion will ruin it all haha.
It always sad that "almost as good as BW" is used as a compliment for SC2. So many years of esports development gone to waste.
I feel, SC1 unit design is to make the game fun, and players adapt from there. if I am not wrong, the way they design Marine, Zealot, Zergling, Vulture is to have basic unit being cost effective ppl will feel good purchasing them
Then they make advanced units have some attractive properties that can make u jizz in ur pants, like, goliath able to hit both land and air good range good dmg. Siege tank very big range and high dmg.
Or dark templar passive invisible high dmg, mutalisk able to hit multiple units, Lurker able to be invisible and hit multiple units... Carrier able to fly, high shield hp and extremely amount of dmg by just A...etc..
In SC2, I feel they design the unit they have balance in mind. Because I dont feel thor attractive walk so slow, I dont feel banshee attractive because it cannot hit air, I dont feel viking attractive because u need to switch...
I feel, SC2 design main focus is balance and competition, the fun factor is not the focus.
EPT
But there are tons of people who would disagree with me (Like 3 Caster Format is much superior than the 2 man format)
