Hasn't the HoTS preview just been AWESOME?! You'd be stupid not to think so. Let's take a look at some of the new features:
-Carrier and mothership removed because fuck the mothership and it would be just too hard to balance an already implemented unit. -Two new protoss air units added. A flying Thor and one that kind looks like a wadded up piece of paper. -Mineral freeze. Like force-fields but less Starcraft-esque and more we're-shit-out-of-ideas-esque (probably requires more APM to build the unit than to use the ability). -The Nexus now has a recall ability. In other news, you can never base race a Protoss ever again. -The Nexus now has an ability, for 25 energy, to add a gun to a target building. Consider Marauder drops a thing of the past! No one would ever attack a cybercore with a sentry duct taped to the top.
-Zerg now has the equivalent of those sticky hands you slapped your siblings with as a child. -Flying defiler (probably useless but its your fault if it is) -Lurkers that shit broodlings. Because broodlords were just to easy to kill with siege tanks. -The hydra is now an air unit. It has a new, unrevealed unit ability. -Ultralisks can burrow-blink. -Just kidding the hydra is still a ground unit. You probably believed that shit, though. It would have been the most sane change in the list. -Ultralisks can burrow-blink. -Corrupters can now contaminate CC's/Nexus's/Hatches' which gives 1 mineral per second and does 1 dps per second. -Ultralisks can burrow-blink.
-Terran goes full on copyright infringement and adds the Thor (not the Starcraft Thor but the Mech Commander Thor). It does AOE air damage and is faster and smaller than the Thor. Thank god, the thor was always so easy to kill. -Hellions can now transform! More HP, same old eradicate an entire zerg army.
But who the fuck cares about multiplayer. We all play Starcraft for the story. Enter Kerrigan. That girl who says she isn't like other girls. She's out for another man and completely ignores the guy who's always been there for her (Writer's note: really reaching out to the sexually frustrated, teenage audience). Who knows what's in store for us with this all new, *noncliche* storyyyy!!
Other notes: -WoW and "Kung fu Panda" have made a mysterious merger
Did I miss anything? On a serious note, this all looks like it should be in a UMS map.
On October 22 2011 04:21 RohoboK wrote: Well, let's hope your painful pessimism never spreads further than the insignificant doldrums of the TeamLiquid blog space.
I have done nothing but list the new changes. If that's pessimism then we've got a serious problem.
Don't get me wrong, Hwangjae. There are some good ideas. But there are good ideas and then there are applicable and useful ideas. There are ideas relevant and interesting for gameplay. But mostly Blizzard just had cliche, simple ideas. They went for a cool focus rather than a functionality based one.
On October 22 2011 04:21 RohoboK wrote: Well, let's hope your painful pessimism never spreads further than the insignificant doldrums of the TeamLiquid blog space.
I have done nothing but list the new changes. If that's pessimism then we've got a serious problem.
Your blog post was practically drenched in a sarcasm that shown nothing more than utter contempt for Blizzard's ideas.
On October 22 2011 04:33 PopeTimusPrime wrote: Don't get me wrong, Hwangjae. There are some good ideas. But there are good ideas and then there are applicable and useful ideas. There are ideas relevant and interesting for gameplay. But mostly Blizzard just had cliche, simple ideas. They went for a cool focus rather than a functionality based one.
well, the protoss air AOE one makes sense, because other than storm they have no anti-air AOE. I can live with that unit. The manhack thingy is hard to justify/call out because it looks like it....I don't know what it does or how.
Terran stuff = lol. The mecha-hellion is just stupid to me, an unneeded change or addition, and the mini-thor is probably to replace goliaths in an SK Terran kind of build. Bio + Mini-Thors = fast mobile force.
Zerg sticky hands...not sure how that's going to balance out at all, will have to see before we can really judge it, it's a peculiar idea. Lurker-broodling thing...ground version of broodlord? Why?? If they wanted to make a Lurker-like unit, they should have made something like the lurker. Not something that just poops out a pair of broodlings to get killed. Meh, will have to see. I guess its an alternative to super slow Broodlords.
On October 22 2011 04:37 RohoboK wrote: Your blog post was practically drenched in a sarcasm that shown nothing more than utter contempt for Blizzard's ideas.
Oh you! You caught me. I'm not a fan of most of the changes but some of them are genuinely good. That's not what this blog is about, though. This blog is about the creative black hole that is at the center of the Starcraft 2 department at Blizzard.
On October 22 2011 04:40 Chill wrote: Negativity and pessimism on the internet. This is so fresh.
Not fresh. Honest.
On October 22 2011 04:38 Torenhire wrote: well, the protoss air AOE one makes sense, because other than storm they have no anti-air AOE. I can live with that unit. The manhack thingy is hard to justify/call out because it looks like it....I don't know what it does or how.
Yeah I completely agree with the above. AA protoss units have been pretty weak but I'm not entirely sure that this is the unit to fix it (referring to the flying thor).
To everyone else: I'm not commenting on how this will balance the game; I simply don't know. I'm commenting on the way they went about balancing the game.
On October 22 2011 04:37 RohoboK wrote: Your blog post was practically drenched in a sarcasm that shown nothing more than utter contempt for Blizzard's ideas.
Oh you! You caught me. I'm not a fan of most of the changes but some of them are genuinely good. That's not what this blog is about, though. This blog is about the creative black hole that is at the center of the Starcraft 2 department at Blizzard.
What are your ideas? Starcraft 2 is Blizzard's IP and, well, what they design is, I'd like to think, the result of hard work and the bouncing around of a number of ideas and possibilities that they have whittled down to the last, most realistic few.
Obviously they have to create fun-to-use units, because believe it or not, E-SPORTS is not the only audience for Starcraft 2. To then balance new, fun units around the stable, staple units is a tough job, and until you play the game for a few months to discover each of the new units' pros and cons during competitive play, there is really no need to jump on the seemingly popular Blizzard-has-lost-all-creativity bandwagon a couple of hours after they've made the information public.
What are your ideas? Starcraft 2 is Blizzard's IP and, well, what they design is, I'd like to think, the result of hard work and the bouncing around of a number of ideas and possibilities that they have whittled down to the last, most realistic few.
Well not all departments are managed properly and not all companies are lead properly. This isn't unique to industries exterior to the gaming industry. This affects all industries. I can't comment on Blizzard's management process because I've never seen it (though from their results I can guess).
It may not be a management problem. It may be that the company is pushing for an end that is contrary to what would be best for the game. Adding units, for example, for the sake of making it feel like a new game rather than a patch. Adding more obvious abilities to attract a casual audience. These things will undoubtedly help Starcraft sell well (which is, ultimately, Blizzard's only responsibility) but it sacrifices the game's quality for short term success.
In short, Blizzard makes money at the initial release. There is no incentive to provide for a longterm product. With a pay-for-play type system maybe that incentive would be present but, as of right now, its no where to be found. That's not to say companies like Blizzard don't care about their games far into the future. But it is the to say that the development processes have a different focus because of this business strategy.
On October 22 2011 04:55 RohoboK wrote: there is really no need to jump on the seemingly popular Blizzard-has-lost-all-creativity bandwagon a couple of hours after they've made the information public.
Really interested in your thought process here. You don't accuse me of jumping on a bandwagon when I don't purchase less than desirable fruit or vegetable at a market? Why accuse me when I'm commenting on a game that I like to play? I wouldn't buy a rotten fruit and I may even tell the management to restock their shelves. And I won't buy a rotten game and I think its healthy to at least have a discussion about these things.
Ultimately, its at the market's convenience to restock their shelves but if they neglect that rotten fruit for too long I'll simply go somewhere else.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: Hasn't the HoTS preview just been AWESOME?! You'd be stupid not to think so.
Sign me up on the stupid list. Like the very top of it.
I'm totally bummed out tbh, it seems like a whole year of SC2 has been a waste, completely pointless. -_-
It's like we're getting SC3 or something. There's been so many changes that it's a completely random, new game I know nothing about, and there's going to be months of awful play and trash builds and abusive shit all over again like post release, and we're going to have a million more patches to fix everything, and... fuck.
[15:54] <AresEffort> wtf [15:54] <AresEffort> the hydra is not a air unit [15:54] <AresEffort> now* [15:54] <boesthius> liar [15:54] <AresEffort> [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=277838]http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=277838[/url] [15:54] <AresEffort> ultra can burrow blink [15:54] <AresEffort> wtf [15:54] <[Antoine]> -Just kidding the hydra is still a ground unit. You probably believed that shit, though. It would have been the most sane change in the list. [15:54] <boesthius> liar [15:54] <AresEffort> fuck [15:54] <AresEffort> i didnt get that far yet [15:54] <[Antoine]> owned [15:54] <AresEffort> lol [15:54] <boesthius> raped [15:54] <AresEffort> stfu
On October 22 2011 04:40 Chill wrote: Negativity and pessimism on the internet. This is so fresh.
oh come on this looks god awful
Yea, and you think they won't fix it before releasing it? That's my point.
Well i mean blizzcon is a show, for WoW expansions they tease the shit up to the maximum, it looks good, its "new" and nerds get excited (for some reason).
LOL i love that u said 3 times the ultra thing =), funny blog imo! but HotS looks fun, playing zerg is already fun, but the lack of unit will be solved now =)! gogo blizz
Wow, only 1 big thor available on the map. Really interesting change, but maybe there was something about mass thor they didn't like. Basically a hero unit like the mothership now so I can't say I really like it. I really don't think units like those have a place in starcraft. This isn't wc3.
Mass recall on a nexus seems straight up OP. Again feels like it's moving towards WC3, but you should be able to maneuver around your opponent. This feels like it's just making things way too easy.
Corrupter change is straight up retarded. I have a hard time believing that these anti air units are gonna be flying around apart from the main army to go into the opponent's base to do this. It takes too much apm and multitasking for its return.
Warhounds are good at killing siege tanks. Not sure if that's what terrans wanted. Marauders are pretty effective as well, and there's just a lot of different ways you can break siege tanks as long as it's not a super hard contain.
And holy shit banelings can move while burrowed. I hope to god they make burrow move easier to spot like invis.
Also, I guess this means mech in ZvT is done now? No more thors so where's your anti air gonna come from unless they add like goliaths. I really hope they add a replacement for the thor because I think the thor also just added certain ways for the game to not just get plain stupid, like just plain losing once you get out more vikings.
TimusPrime there is a pay to play element in that blizzard gains roughly 50% of the money accrued from advertisements at every tournament. The implications of this should be obvious....(the larger sc2 becomes as an esport the more money they make + continue putting into the game)
[15:54] <AresEffort> wtf [15:54] <AresEffort> the hydra is not a air unit [15:54] <AresEffort> now* [15:54] <boesthius> liar [15:54] <AresEffort> [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=277838]http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=277838[/url] [15:54] <AresEffort> ultra can burrow blink [15:54] <AresEffort> wtf [15:54] <[Antoine]> -Just kidding the hydra is still a ground unit. You probably believed that shit, though. It would have been the most sane change in the list. [15:54] <boesthius> liar [15:54] <AresEffort> fuck [15:54] <AresEffort> i didnt get that far yet [15:54] <[Antoine]> owned [15:54] <AresEffort> lol [15:54] <boesthius> raped [15:54] <AresEffort> stfu
lol i got ares earlier too, i texted him joking that there was a new type of destructible rock around 9am pst... turns out my trolling wasn't far off..
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: Hasn't the HoTS preview just been AWESOME?! You'd be stupid not to think so.
Sign me up on the stupid list. Like the very top of it.
I'm totally bummed out tbh, it seems like a whole year of SC2 has been a waste, completely pointless. -_-
It's like we're getting SC3 or something. There's been so many changes that it's a completely random, new game I know nothing about, and there's going to be months of awful play and trash builds and abusive shit all over again like post release, and we're going to have a million more patches to fix everything, and... fuck.
Well I'm sure lurkers and all the units that came with BW compared to vanilla SC made people say the same thing. I think the changes are going to be good to watch and see the game develop more. Everyone knew this was coming considering there are 3 releases of SCII.
Either way, Z seems more zergy, ZvT is going to change drastically but I think it is going to be a ton of fun to watch what the pros come up with.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: Hasn't the HoTS preview just been AWESOME?! You'd be stupid not to think so.
Sign me up on the stupid list. Like the very top of it.
I'm totally bummed out tbh, it seems like a whole year of SC2 has been a waste, completely pointless. -_-
It's like we're getting SC3 or something. There's been so many changes that it's a completely random, new game I know nothing about, and there's going to be months of awful play and trash builds and abusive shit all over again like post release, and we're going to have a million more patches to fix everything, and... fuck.
Well I'm sure lurkers and all the units that came with BW compared to vanilla SC made people say the same thing. I think the changes are going to be good to watch and see the game develop more. Everyone knew this was coming considering there are 3 releases of SCII.
Either way, Z seems more zergy, ZvT is going to change drastically but I think it is going to be a ton of fun to watch what the pros come up with.
The difference is that very few people played SC1 super actively and on a high level before BW, things were just developing at that point and the expectations were smaller, so the impact of the changes was much less painful. This is basically a complete redesign of the game - it invalidates everything that's been learned and done for a year, all the strategies, all the builds, all the timings, all the control techniques, standard unit compositions, everything.
SC2 already took a really long time to achieve some sort of stability and consistency in gameplay. Remember how awful the first few months of SC2 were? We're going to have to go through all of that again. Even assuming the HoTS balance is perfect, and obviously that's highly unlikely and will be a whole different problem on top of everything else.
And once things stabilize again, they're going to hit us with the 3rd expansion and hit a reset button AGAIN. So why invest time and money into Heart of the Swarm in the first place, it'll only last for a year as well.
How can this be anything other than incredibly frustrating, I just don't understand.
Well, it IS an expansion after all. Even adding 1 unit per race is gonna be game changing. How you could not have foreseen this is what really surprises me. The mechanics are going to be the same, and so will the general concept. If builds and the metagame changes, so be it, but I think good sc players will always be good sc players.
Adding 1 unit wouldn't be game changing to this extent, it's pretty straightforward to work the 1 unit into the existing metagame with small gradual adjustments to builds and strategies.
This isn't even only adding units, it's adding pretty drastic features (Nexus recall actually does change the "general concept" for example). I don't think anyone can honestly say they expected such massive changes.
some of the abilities and units seem pretty cheap. Viper grab, replicant cloning, town portal for protoss, baneling burrow move? And then terran just got the shaft LOL
On October 22 2011 08:14 Itsmedudeman wrote: I can't wait to see proxy nexus becoming a legitimate strat
Well proxy hatch is a quite legitimate strategy against Protoss already as well so I hope you weren't being sarcastic :o
Can't wait for Protoss being able to build marines either.
On October 22 2011 08:15 SpoR wrote: some of the abilities and units seem pretty cheap. Viper grab, replicant cloning, town portal for protoss, baneling burrow move? And then terran just got the shaft LOL
Screw Terran they have bunker salvage and marauders. LOL.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: -Terran goes full on copyright infringement and adds the Thor (not the Starcraft Thor but the Mech Commander Thor). It does AOE air damage and is faster and smaller than the Thor. Thank god, the thor was always so easy to kill.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: -Terran goes full on copyright infringement and adds the Thor (not the Starcraft Thor but the Mech Commander Thor). It does AOE air damage and is faster and smaller than the Thor. Thank god, the thor was always so easy to kill.
Joking aside, I do feel better to learn I'm not the only one who looked at the warhound and instantly thought "Battletech".
There was a show when I was little, I think it was called...Robotech? On cartoon network. The main ship they lived in stood up and had cannons, and it looked like the new goliath/thor/thing being added, half buried in the ground. that's what i thought of.
My personal opinion on this matter is that they took the ideas the community gave them such as:
ZERG
"We want lurker/siege unit" "We want Dark Swarm"
Terran
"We need spider mines/ unit to shield siege tanks/control ground" "We want goliath/ support AA unit"
Protoss
"We want scouting without commiting to robo" "We want usable units other than MS/carrier"
and then they were too stubborn and obstinate to implement them as is and added a ridiculous twist that fucked this dynamic in a totally OP way. Maybe I will be proven wrong, as Chill says, but at the moment this is my take on the subject, for what its worth.
Well I'm just glad Protoss is getting a counter to mutas considering we clearly did not have 4 units that destroy them easily.
And since our new units seem to suck so far, I'm assuming the idea is that we'll have to use Replicants. (which is a great, great name by the way - I'd like to know how they came up with something so brilliant)
Advanced technology was so great, we have to steal your stuff and "harass" with our "harass unit" to be on equal grounds.
But bitching is useless cause things will change a lot by the time it's released.
It feels like the WC3 -> TFT transition, rather than the SC -> BW transition. The Frozen Throne completely changed how armor types worked, changed attack types, etc. The game was completely revamped. Brood War simply added units to create a more interesting, balanced game.
Feels like they don't know what to do with SC2. I would have rather seen them change some of the spells and units that already feel out of place such as Forcefield, Colossus, Roach, etc.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: -Terran goes full on copyright infringement and adds the Thor (not the Starcraft Thor but the Mech Commander Thor). It does AOE air damage and is faster and smaller than the Thor. Thank god, the thor was always so easy to kill.
Joking aside, I do feel better to learn I'm not the only one who looked at the warhound and instantly thought "Battletech".
Yeah, I thought Warhammer before Thor. Warhammer -> Warhound. Close enough.
But Warhammers are cool, and Goliaths were pretty cool, so Warhounds are also pretty cool.
I'd probably be offended that Blizzard would remove the Carrier and not the Colossus, but we're not even in beta yet and things will most certainly be changed.
On October 22 2011 04:08 PopeTimusPrime wrote: Hasn't the HoTS preview just been AWESOME?! You'd be stupid not to think so.
Sign me up on the stupid list. Like the very top of it.
I'm totally bummed out tbh, it seems like a whole year of SC2 has been a waste, completely pointless. -_-
It's like we're getting SC3 or something. There's been so many changes that it's a completely random, new game I know nothing about, and there's going to be months of awful play and trash builds and abusive shit all over again like post release, and we're going to have a million more patches to fix everything, and... fuck.
Well I'm sure lurkers and all the units that came with BW compared to vanilla SC made people say the same thing. I think the changes are going to be good to watch and see the game develop more. Everyone knew this was coming considering there are 3 releases of SCII.
Either way, Z seems more zergy, ZvT is going to change drastically but I think it is going to be a ton of fun to watch what the pros come up with.
The difference is that very few people played SC1 super actively and on a high level before BW, things were just developing at that point and the expectations were smaller, so the impact of the changes was much less painful. This is basically a complete redesign of the game - it invalidates everything that's been learned and done for a year, all the strategies, all the builds, all the timings, all the control techniques, standard unit compositions, everything.
SC2 already took a really long time to achieve some sort of stability and consistency in gameplay. Remember how awful the first few months of SC2 were? We're going to have to go through all of that again. Even assuming the HoTS balance is perfect, and obviously that's highly unlikely and will be a whole different problem on top of everything else.
And once things stabilize again, they're going to hit us with the 3rd expansion and hit a reset button AGAIN. So why invest time and money into Heart of the Swarm in the first place, it'll only last for a year as well.
How can this be anything other than incredibly frustrating, I just don't understand.
I agree with you completely, SC2 finally is having some sort of stable gameplay and introducing 3 random units completely screws things up.
On October 22 2011 14:03 Ganjamaster wrote: My personal opinion on this matter is that they took the ideas the community gave them such as:
ZERG
"We want lurker/siege unit" "We want Dark Swarm"
Terran
"We need spider mines/ unit to shield siege tanks/control ground" "We want goliath/ support AA unit"
Protoss "We want scouting without commiting to robo" "We want usable units other than MS/carrier"
and then they were too stubborn and obstinate to implement them as is and added a ridiculous twist that fucked this dynamic in a totally OP way. Maybe I will be proven wrong, as Chill says, but at the moment this is my take on the subject, for what its worth.
Hallucinate?
But yes, I will agree they took the ideas and "added a ridiculous twist". Dark swarm is like reverse darkswarm (or AOE blind), siege unit isn't really a siege unit or lurker, shredder seems really weird.
EPT
