This is mostly just so that I can look at these numbers in writing. You neither need to agree with my opinion or bother reading below unless you're interested in doing a some thinking about an unlikely change.
I've added some comments to try and make it slightly more readable.
Of all the options to adjust the strength of Terran without crippling the race as a whole, I can't help but wonder what effects just reducing marine HP by 5 would have on the game, so here are some important numbers that would get adjusted.
Vs Zerg:
Zergling - would almost always take 1 less attack to kill a marine compared to the current game. As far as upgrades are concerned, +1 armor would be slightly better for Terran if he can get an upgrade advantage as that would add 2 attacks.
Queen - would have the potential to kill marines in 5 attacks down from 6. + armor upgrades were always very good vs Queen and would remain so, but is typically irrelevant at later points in the game as Queens kind of suck.
Baneling - would actually be able to 1-shot a marine or a stimmed/shielded marine if they have +2 melee. No amount of armor upgrades will help here.
Roach - would remain the same for early-game, but getting +2 range vs 0 armor has the potential of allowing for 2-shots down from 3 for a kill.
Hydralisk - would still suck
Mutalisk - a +1 air weapon advantage over the marines armor would reduce required mutalisk shots by 1 to kill a main-targetted marine. Glaive bounce damage would still be highly reduced by any armor upgrades.
Broodlord - would have the potential of killing stimmed/shielded marines with 2 shots, as long as they are within 1 air weapon compared to infantry armor.
Ultralisk - would still suck
Fungal Growth - would still take 2 to kill.
Overall, it would have a pretty meaningful effect on TvZ. Terrans might actually have to mix in more than just marine/medivac/siege tank throughout the mid-game due to the change in the relationship with the Baneling, which I think would be beneficial as marine-splitting is getting pretty ridiculous to the point where Banelings are becoming ineffective in general. Considering the top levels of play I think this would actually be a positive change as a solid siege tank push with massive amounts of marines is boring, but the single best use of your money in the current game.
Vs Protoss:
Zealot - would 2-shot a stimmed/unshielded marine. A +2 weapon lead would 2-shot a stimmed/shielded marine.
Stalker - would require 4 shots down from 5 to kill an unshielded marine.
Archon - would 1-shot a marine or stimmed/shielded marine after +2 weapons, no armor would affect this.
Dark Templar - would always 1-shot marines after +2 weapons regardless of marine upgrades. Most other interactions would go unchanged.
Immortal - would 2-shot marines on equal upgrades.
Colossus - would kill a stimmed/unshielded marine in 1 shot, all other interactions would remain virtually unchanged so long as there are reasonable upgrades (3 vs 3 would leave marines at 1 hp instead of 6).
Void Ray - would kill a marine with 1 less pulse, 2 less pulses if fully charged, and 1 less pulse if fully charged vs no stim/combat shield.
Phoenix - would kill a marine in 1 less volley on equal upgrades with no stim/shield or stim/shield but remain unchanged otherwise.
Carrier - lol
PvT would also benefit a lot here. This would effectively bury the 1-1-1 build deep in the ground with no chance of recovery. Virtually all Protoss units outside of the Zealot would become much more effective vs non-upgraded marines which seems to be a big issue in the match right now. Marines would also become less of a threat throughout the mid-late game as Archons would dominate them very hard. Is it possible that with Marines becoming highly undesirable in the match, Marauders would also fall aside? One can only hope...
Vs Terran:
Marines - would kill each other faster lol
Marauders - 1 less shot required to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Reaper - remain the same
Ghost - require 1 less shot to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Hellion - require 1 less shot to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Siege Tank - remain the same
Thor - remain the same
Banshee - remain the same
Viking - slightly less terrible vs marines on the ground
BC - 1 less attack to kill a marine or stimmed/shielded marine on equal upgrades, no change vs no stim/shield
I was not much of a fan of the hellion raiding phase of TvT, but I am DEFINITELY not a fan of marine/tank play in that match. There is nothing more frustrating to me than watching a guy with 10 siege tanks and 10 marines lose his whole army in a fight vs an opponent with 30 marines. I would welcome a new round of mech vs mech TvT with slightly-less-effective hellion raid runs.
Anyway... that's the end of my post... I just wanted to see the numbers in a place I could compare. Figured I'd write it here and leave it in case anybody actually cares to look.
On October 13 2011 14:20 Demonhunter04 wrote: Actually reapers had the G4 clusterbomb in the beta but I assume it was removed due to it being overpowered.
Marines have 45 HP instead of the Brood War 40 for a reason. SCVs also had 60 hp in the beta (once again, like Brood War).
So what's the reason exactly? I know the SCV's had their HP reduced from BW's numbers because marine SCV all-ins were hilariously broken, but what about the marine HP change?
On October 13 2011 14:20 Demonhunter04 wrote: Actually reapers had the G4 clusterbomb in the beta but I assume it was removed due to it being overpowered.
Marines have 45 HP instead of the Brood War 40 for a reason. SCVs also had 60 hp in the beta (once again, like Brood War).
So what's the reason exactly? I know the SCV's had their HP reduced from BW's numbers because marine SCV all-ins were hilariously broken, but what about the marine HP change?
I don't think it was a very specific reason, simply that marines all around were not that good with 40 hp.
I don't get why they got that free 5 hp to begin with. Zerglings are still on 35 hp, it just feels like a free buff for marines while lings and zealots stayed the same.
I think the biggest deal is that stalkers take 5 shots to kill marines instead of 4. 1-1-1 would not sound that strong all of a sudden.
Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe.
They would still be cost effective if they had 35 hp anyway !
IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything.
I guess one shot banelings is not defined as crippling? lol?
You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective.
On October 13 2011 17:30 kidcrash wrote: IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything.
I don't get how that would nerf anything past a certain point. Early game yeah, but marines are very good all around because of the AI allowing a high DPS unit to spread well automatically. Of course the pros spread them manually but the AI still helps a ton.
On October 13 2011 17:30 kidcrash wrote: IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything.
I don't get how that would nerf anything past a certain point. Early game yeah, but marines are very good all around because of the AI allowing a high DPS unit to spread well automatically. Of course the pros spread them manually but the AI still helps a ton.
True it would only nerf early game but things tend to snowball in starcraft especially as far as advantages go. Less pressure early game (due to lack of range plus the investment in the upgrade) = easier expansions and less dead units which leads to larger army sizes late game. Give tanks back some of their siege damage and terran unit compositions will shift themselves naturally into a more varied direction.
On October 13 2011 17:34 Itsmedudeman wrote: I guess one shot banelings is not defined as crippling? lol?
You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective.
Hold on, banes would need +2 melee to 1 shot marines. I'm pretty sure you can get combat shield way before +2 melee.
But I agree that micro is already dumb enough as is in sc2, anything that require micro is good for the game, anything 1a style just makes it less exciting or not exciting at all.
Right, so when Zeals tank hardcore you want Marines to just melt in TvP? Because lately I've been facing HTs AND Colossi in late game and you just need to split like crazy.
Also, we won't be able to pressure Zerg that well. How do we keep up against a 14 Hatch on the now standard huge 4 players maps?
Not to mention that we couldn't pressure Toss at all, and that a mid game army has no chance to win since it always has Marines. I play Synystr's style (mass Banshee) at high Diamond level so don't pull that "get out of bioball mentality" crap, I haven't used one in weeks. And Marines already melt away as things are right now so...
@DoX.) I would like to see more than Marine/Medivac/Tank be the counter to EVERYTHING through the midgame. Lategame compositions are already fine as they start including Thors, Ravens, Marauders, Ghosts, Vikings, and Hellions. Pretty much the entire gambit of Terran units. Mid game armies are just too dominant being able to streamline production into 1- the highest DPS/cost unit in the game, 2- the longest range unit in the game, and 3- a healer/dropship that makes marines ridiculously good while simultaneously allowing for the best drop harassment currently in the game with no additional investment. Terran should have to invest in SOMETHING else through the mid-game, and I think Marauders would be a fine option.
@ Toppp the Hydra and Ultralisk relationship wouldn't change. A hydra does 36 damage in 3 shots, 48 damage in 4 shots, and 60 damage in 5 shots. The marine would stick in that range regardless of upgrades or changes to hp current or theoretical.
The Ultra is the same way, it does 30/2 45/3 60/4. 3 hits already kill a marine on equal upgrades and that would remain the same. I guess 2 hits would kill a marine without shield but really who doesn't have shield that late in the game?
Ultras can have some minor arguments to their utility, but generally they're horrible unless you're already WAY ahead. Hydras are always bad in ZvT, sorry.
@Kukaracha Honestly, I could care less what unit compositions you use in platinum. Nobody at the highest levels is using anything other than 1-1-1 and mass marauder with ghost/marines sprinkled in. Everybody who knows anything about Starcraft hates the Marauder and what it's done to SC2 TvP. I am not saying reducing marine HP would steer Terrans away from Marauders either. I honestly don't know, I am just hoping.
To all the haters, I am not saying Terran just needs a straight nerf and leave it that way. I am all for buffing other things, I think siege mode siege tanks could use +10 damage vs armored for one. My hate is directed at the Marine, not necessarily Terran as a whole.
For the Baneling 1-shotting Marines, yes... it would be vastly different compared to current gameplay. However, top-level terrans are facing down mid-game zerg armies with 30+ banelings and only 5-7 are connecting in current gameplay. All I am suggesting is that those 5-7 guarantee marine kills instead of dealing 60% of their HP worth of damage. Adding Marauders would definitely help there, but have reduced effectiveness against lings/mutas, an effect I would be ok with in the match.
Right now, I don't consider Banelings an adequate counter to Marines, and if you do, you're not watching the pros enough, banelings generally aren't doing what they set out to do. If 1-shotting marines proves to be too OP in the end, I would be all for a reduction in baneling damage before increasing marine HP again if needed.
For a laughable comparison, imagine if siege tanks self-destructed after 3 shots. Would they still be a viable counter to lings? I highly doubt it.
Blizzard seems to have forgotten "meaningless" range upgrades in general. The only range upgrades currently in the game are the hydralisk and the colossus, and I would go so far as to say the hydra upgrade should have been removed as well rather than nerfing marines and stalkers back to equivalent stupidity.
Banelings killing Marines in one hit rather than 2 would be quite interesting. It'd be super imba for ladder noobs though as their splits aren't that great. But I think it would be really interesting at the professional level where Banelings really... are pretty bad for their cost.
On October 13 2011 16:56 baba1 wrote: I don't get why they got that free 5 hp to begin with. Zerglings are still on 35 hp, it just feels like a free buff for marines while lings and zealots stayed the same.
I think the biggest deal is that stalkers take 5 shots to kill marines instead of 4. 1-1-1 would not sound that strong all of a sudden.
Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe.
They would still be cost effective if they had 35 hp anyway !
Not only that but Marine range in BW was 5 with a +1 upgrade but they start as 6 in SC2. I feel like Blizz were trying to force Marine viability, much like Ghosts
Also, come to think of it, should T not need a Ghost Academy for scan, shields, stim and shells? Curious
On October 13 2011 16:56 baba1 wrote: I don't get why they got that free 5 hp to begin with. Zerglings are still on 35 hp, it just feels like a free buff for marines while lings and zealots stayed the same.
I think the biggest deal is that stalkers take 5 shots to kill marines instead of 4. 1-1-1 would not sound that strong all of a sudden.
Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe.
They would still be cost effective if they had 35 hp anyway !
Not only that but Marine range in BW was 5 with a +1 upgrade but they start as 6 in SC2. I feel like Blizz were trying to force Marine viability, much like Ghosts
Also, come to think of it, should T not need a Ghost Academy for scan, shields, stim and shells? Curious
That would make way too much sense bro.
And for everyone saying that banes would 1 shot marines and be too strong, you clearly have not been on the receiving end of a siege tanks group that obliterate everything from 13 range, 1 shotting zerglings and banelings without even trying or paying attention.
1 siege tank shot = 10 banelings dead and your siege tank doesn't have to blow himself up in melee range to do dmg. You realise all that gas wasted for zerg just for walking in the 13 range?
Sorry if your mineral only marines get killed by a gas heavy melee kamikaze. And it's not like terran can't just stim and run around until tanks 1 shotted all the banes too.
When it doesnt require marines to keep most tier 3 units alive because they need to be babysat by marines...you'll see less marines.
And everything that makes marines valuable...makes late game marines just as valuable. So anything like reducing the range and then giving it an upgrade is just going to make a necessary upgrade that MIGHT nerf the early game but effectively won't matter in the mid or late game, because it will become like warpgate. If you're going to make more than 1 marine...you're going to get range, and you'll probably get it as soon as physically possible. unless you're doing a zero gateway unit build...you're going to get warpgate.
On October 14 2011 05:02 Spessi wrote: My only thought on the marine is this:
When it doesnt require marines to keep most tier 3 units alive because they need to be babysat by marines...you'll see less marines.
And everything that makes marines valuable...makes late game marines just as valuable. So anything like reducing the range and then giving it an upgrade is just going to make a necessary upgrade that MIGHT nerf the early game but effectively won't matter in the mid or late game, because it will become like warpgate. If you're going to make more than 1 marine...you're going to get range, and you'll probably get it as soon as physically possible. unless you're doing a zero gateway unit build...you're going to get warpgate.
Those kind of small tweaks end up do more to mid-late game than you would imagine. Paying 150/150 and waiting for your rines to get that extra range means your opponent can take an easier expansion which is an advantage that transitions into mid game.
What about terran holding early pressure with rines missing that +1 range? I'm sure taking early-game damage is something that would easily snowball into mid game as well.
On October 13 2011 17:34 Itsmedudeman wrote: You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective.
Idk Nestea vs MVP was pretty exciting and he won with mech twice
On October 14 2011 06:33 turdburgler wrote: why are people so mad about "core units"
why dont we just nerf the zergling, god damn tier 1 unit that is still used in the late game, nerf it!
Zerglings and Zealots DID get nerfed in the transfer from BW.
Marines got a massive buff.
Only zealot got nerfed actually, 10 less shield (but take less time to build pre-warp gate). Lings have the same stats, but also less time to build. Marine more hp, but more time to build.
If you consider the fact that adrenal glands are not as good anymore, zerglings took a huge nerf.
Marines are definitely problematic as they are very strong vs. all matchups and too strong for a tier 1 unit.
5 health reduction seems perfectly reasonable to me..
On October 13 2011 16:56 baba1 wrote: Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe.
I've always thought this would have been fair. As it is, marines are insanely good early game, and pretty fair late game. This change would nerf terran all-ins without affecting any late game terran play that involve combat shield
With the 1 less range with early game marines, I would presume voidray allins would be too powerful. Having both stalkers and voidray have the same range as bunkered marines will make wallins too easily punishable. Being able to target down depots with both stalkers and voids without getting hit would be way to easy to break, and no amount of SCV repair will help.
Also, early game usage of forcefield would seem extremely powerful. Being able to outrange marines would have the same effect as forcefielding roaches.
I'm not too sure how it would effect TvZ, as the only units that have similar range to marines are hydra's. Even then, they start out with 5 range. There would be some overall damage reduction early on, but nothing much else.
I can't say I agree with the HP decrease, to me the baneling would seem too powerful. If banelings can 1 shot marines at any point, speed banes on creep just seems to be too punishing. People are getting very good at spreading creep and there are periods where you MUST engage on creep to do damage. Makes those situations completely lopsided if it wasn't already before.
Overall instead of diversifying the matchup, I think people might stop using marines completely. TvT a month back was majority mech, as the hellion was a very effective unit against marines pre-1.4 (it still is though, just not as good). I believe the same thing would happen in the other two matchups and we'll have another reaper like unit.
On October 14 2011 06:33 turdburgler wrote: why are people so mad about "core units"
why dont we just nerf the zergling, god damn tier 1 unit that is still used in the late game, nerf it!
Zerglings and Zealots DID get nerfed in the transfer from BW.
Marines got a massive buff.
Only zealot got nerfed actually, 10 less shield (but take less time to build pre-warp gate). Lings have the same stats, but also less time to build. Marine more hp, but more time to build.
*sigh*
OK, here's a StarCraft history lesson for those who don't know.
Effects on base units going from BW to SC2:
The Marine:
-The Marine got a massive DPS boost, +5hp, and +1 range out-the-door.
-Stimpack got nerfed from a 100% DPS increase down to 50%, this, in conjunction with the massive boost to baseline marine DPS means that stimmed marines do roughly equal damage between the two games in comparison to the majority of units, SC2 marines might do slightly more but not significantly so.
-Stimpack got a massive movement speed boost. I am not absolutely sure of the stats on the BW stimpack as they don't list movement in easy-to-read places, but stimmed marines were nowhere near as fast as they are in SC2.
-Combat Shield is a completely new upgrade providing an additional 10hp on top of their already increased HP total, this has huge ramifications in both TvZ and TvP as a SC2 marine is worth nearly 1.5 BW marines if you're counting hp or hits-to-kill. Marines were NOT VIABLE in BW TvP because even with stim and medivacs, they still got 2 shot by Zealots before they could deal their damage.
-The way units clump up in SC2 causes marines to have a massive amount of damage-per-space due to their small size and 5 range. A roach with 145 hp and 1 base armor will die in under one second on the approach to shoot at a group of 215 marines, dealing 0 damage in the process.
-SC2 Marines take 1 second longer to build than in BW.
Other units that affect the Marine:
-Medivacs heal more efficiently, faster, and at a longer range than Medics did. Medivacs also provide for 8 marine drops with a healer built in rather than 7+healer or 8 marines with 0 healing from Brood War, making drops significantly more robust and powerful.
-Thors provide better coverage vs Mutalisks, allowing Marines to spread out without issue in mid-late game TvZ not to mention the increased speed and HP makes it much more dangerous for mutas to dive in for a few kills anyway. In BW, Mutalisks could CONSTANTLY pick at your marine count.
-Reactors mean that a Terran can produce marines at a much faster rate through the mid-game. Where as 8-10 Barracks was a good number for all your marine/medic/firebat in BW, it's not uncommon to see 14+ marines being produced per cycle in SC2.
Literally the only negative changes to the Marine coming over from BW is +1 second to their build time and reduction in stim DPS, which isn't really a nerf at all...
The Zergling:
-Zerglings deal significantly less damage compared to their BW counterpart.
-Zerglings stack up tightly when moving, but somehow manage to find less surface-area when attacking units/buildings compared to BW. This has the effect of both making them more susceptible to splash damage while approaching units and reducing effective DPS because only 2 or 3 Zerglings seem to be able to attack where 3 or 4 would have in BW.
-Metabolic Boost makes Zerglings slightly faster than their BW counterparts. This is especially notable when combined with the 30% speed boost on creep, making Zerglings on creep the fastest unit in the game by almost 2 full units per second.
-Adrenal Glands got reduced to 15% down from 20%, making endgame ling dps laughable when compared to their BW counterparts.
-Unlimited unit selection probably has more bonus for Zerglings than any other unit in the game. With the simple combination of 1-A-Click you can send over 100 zerglings to attack a specific area on the map with no more micro required.
Other unit changes that affect the Zergling:
-The lack of the Defiler and Dark Swarm makes Zerglings a significantly reduced threat in the late game.
-The Baneling forces marine splits, allowing for the fatter Zergling in SC2 to be able to gain surface area when fighting vs marines, somewhat increasing their effective DPS.
-The Inject Larva mechanic makes Zerglings in SC2 much more plentiful than they were in BW. Zerglings have always been cheap, but Queens are half the price of a hatchery and actually produce MORE larva, making the cheap zergling a natural use of larva.
Almost every change to the Zergling affects it in a negative way. The two major bonuses being that they are faster and easier to produce in large numbers. They are not nearly as cost-effective as they were in BW however, so you're not getting as good a deal as it may seem.
The Zealot
-The Zealot got -10 to shield health crossing over from BW, but their shields are considered light where a BW shield took maximum damage from all damage types as well as the fact that shields regenerate significantly faster after a few seconds out of combat.
-Charge is generally not as good as Leg Enhancement. While it sounded exciting initially, Charge has proven to provide significantly less of a general speed buff to Zealots and only gives the minor utility of a short-distance charge when they are already under fire. In many ways, charge makes retreating with a Zealot force undesirable due to their lower natural speed. Charge also makes Zealots significantly worse at worker harass than in BW.
Other units affecting the Zealot:
-The Zealot gains the utility of Warp Gate in SC2, allowing it to be warped in anywhere there is a power field, this includes your enemies base or in the middle of a battle, provided there is a pylon or warp prism nearby.
-Guardian Shield, when combined with +armor upgrades can make Zealots very tanky vs quick, ranged, light-damage attacks, specifically the Marine.
Zealots were never very good in BW to begin with. Their best use was in PvT to assist mech armies in killing themselves by dropping on top of them and allowing their massive, friendly splash damage to do all the work. That being said, SC2 hasn't helped their case any, they are generally slower, weaker, and nobody uses mech so who cares.
TLDR: Marines got all the good, Zerglings got all the bad, and Zealots could have probably used a boost, but went the opposite direction instead.
-The Zealot gains the utility of Warp Gate in SC2, allowing it to be warped in anywhere there is a power field, this includes your enemies base or in the middle of a battle, provided there is a pylon or warp prism nearby.
TLDR: Marines got all the good, Zerglings got all the bad, and Zealots could have probably used a boost, but went the opposite direction instead.
So what? You got the ability to warp in Zealots anywhere on the map and in 5 seconds. I'll take that over my Brood War Zealots anyday.
On October 14 2011 07:38 kenkou wrote: With the 1 less range with early game marines, I would presume voidray allins would be too powerful. Having both stalkers and voidray have the same range as bunkered marines will make wallins too easily punishable. Being able to target down depots with both stalkers and voids without getting hit would be way to easy to break, and no amount of SCV repair will help.
Also, early game usage of forcefield would seem extremely powerful. Being able to outrange marines would have the same effect as forcefielding roaches.
I'm not too sure how it would effect TvZ, as the only units that have similar range to marines are hydra's. Even then, they start out with 5 range. There would be some overall damage reduction early on, but nothing much else.
I can't say I agree with the HP decrease, to me the baneling would seem too powerful. If banelings can 1 shot marines at any point, speed banes on creep just seems to be too punishing. People are getting very good at spreading creep and there are periods where you MUST engage on creep to do damage. Makes those situations completely lopsided if it wasn't already before.
Overall instead of diversifying the matchup, I think people might stop using marines completely. TvT a month back was majority mech, as the hellion was a very effective unit against marines pre-1.4 (it still is though, just not as good). I believe the same thing would happen in the other two matchups and we'll have another reaper like unit.
Terran would actually require scouting and reaction (imagine that) if they wanted to survive a void ray all in. Scan the toss base and respond with a quick +1 range upgrade and you are all set.
A stalker wall bust would be a bit scary but I think it would warrant quick factory + siege mode builds. I for one would be content with seeing more mech play in TvP and I wouldn't be against giving siege tanks some of their damage back in compensation for marines losing the built-in +1 range.
As far as losing the range making forcefield too powerful, I think that would be completely fair. Sentry costs more than a marine, why shouldn't it be stronger than terrans most basic unit?
On October 14 2011 02:41 arsenic wrote: Banelings killing Marines in one hit rather than 2 would be quite interesting. It'd be super imba for ladder noobs though as their splits aren't that great. But I think it would be really interesting at the professional level where Banelings really... are pretty bad for their cost.
Banelings are brilliant at the level I play at but then I watch MKP split marines and I realise how awful banelings are at a decent level. I think that something has to be donw about this as there is no point in having a unit in the game that becomes more and more worthless the higher level of skill you play at. :/.
(edit: Oh wait, we are getting a baneling launcher LOL)
Horrible idea. Changes too much in the game for no reason. The HPs of zealots/marines/zerglings are fine how they are, as they're all the core units you first make. Fuckin that up fucks everything up.
Play the game as it is, or make equivalent thread discussing reducing Zergling HP and Zealot HP. Take the nerf Terran propaganda bandwagon to the blizzard bnet forums.
I hate mech tvt. Too many people are brainwashed by artosis and follow his anti bio stance. Bio is infinitely more exciting to watch then people cut maps in half for 40 mins with siege tanks. Down with the mech whores! Long live bio! Unfortunately, as MVP has shown, mech is far from dead and sadly still beats out bio.
Anyone that thinks repeatedly suiciding marines and marauders into tank lines is exciting to watch and uses brainpower...dunno what to tell them.
No one is brainwashed by artosis, most people here have followed 10 years+ of brood war where mech was the standard and required forethought and precision to use - not just 1A or random doom drops and backstabs/suiciding units pretending to be good.
On October 14 2011 06:33 turdburgler wrote: why are people so mad about "core units"
why dont we just nerf the zergling, god damn tier 1 unit that is still used in the late game, nerf it!
Zerglings and Zealots DID get nerfed in the transfer from BW.
Marines got a massive buff.
Only zealot got nerfed actually, 10 less shield (but take less time to build pre-warp gate). Lings have the same stats, but also less time to build. Marine more hp, but more time to build.
If you consider the fact that adrenal glands are not as good anymore, zerglings took a huge nerf.
Marines are definitely problematic as they are very strong vs. all matchups and too strong for a tier 1 unit.
5 health reduction seems perfectly reasonable to me..
Wonderful sweeping generalizations, watch I can make them too
Carriers are too strong, even for a tier 3 unit.
Broodlords cost too little gas, they are too good against deathballs.
Marauders are too weak and don't see enough use, they should be buffed.
Obviously my statements are wrong, but they are easy to make, if you are going to make a generalization like "unit x is too y in z" you better have something to back it up. Proof in other words.
Seriously I challenge every person here to prove, empirically that marines are too strong. Not that they are "stronger than in BW " or "really good", but that they are actually overpowered to the point where they need to be nerfed.
If you can't then don't bother proposing a change, because your motivation is suspect.
All this Brood War comparison stuff is bull-shit. Different games, different units, easier to macro, larger control groups, more clumped units. It is entirely different. Buffs/Nerfs should only evaluated in terms of the current game, not on another game simply because some of the units have the same names.
In terms of the OP, the most meaningful changes are the Baneling, stalker and VR changes. The baneling change would make marines past the fifteen minute useless for anyone in a lower league than masters. What do you propose they change that too? You need to deal with Mutalisks and Zerglings. Hellions can't shoot up, You need a ton of Thors to get cost effective vs Zerglings (and if your opponent can magic box you are completely SOL). How do you deal with Ling/Bling/Muta if you can't marine split like a pro?
I could buy the value of the Stalker change, but like the OP states, marines become much less useful late game, probably see even more of the almost pure marauder ghost ground army for Terran.
But the decrease compared to the VRs does concern me. The three Gate VR all-ins are already very powerful, capable of punishing most Terran fast expands in the Void Rays can be hidden. This would make those rushes even harder to hold off. This would in turn require safer Terran expands, reducing the power of the Terran army going into the mid/late game that you just nerfed.
Changing Marine HP won't have much effect on the TvT meta-game. Marine/Tank vs Mech already incorporates a decent amount of marauders, and hellions die too quick to be very effective in the large late game battles. It isn't until it effects marine vs siege tank that effects start happening
The marine is the bread and butter Terran unit - this is why Blizz has probably been so reluctant to nerf it. It is integral to all the Terran match-ups, in that in can deal with everything well. It doesn't really hardcounter anything (except maybe mutalisks), but it can trade well with everything except the high tier AOE units. This means that if you make it unviable, you now have a very large cap to fill, that can't be filled by just one unit, you need two or three, and suddenly Terran armies need twice as many resources (particularly gas) to be effective.
I actually really love the idea of marines starting at 40 hp and combat shields giving them +15 instead of +10 as previously stated. it MIGHT make protoss early game too strong against them though ... 4 gate warp prism all-in ... just make zlots and 2 shot the marines. Also might make them too weak to 3 gate VR. but thats just my opinion on that mu.
On October 20 2011 13:41 OmniEulogy wrote: just make zlots and 2 shot the marines.
How exactly do zealots 2shot marines if marine-hp would be reduced to 40? Two attacks from a zealot would do 32dmg (each attack dealing 2x8dmg).
However, I'm also not sure if this would not break early game defence vs certain allins for terrans. You need to be very careful about buffing or nerfing basic units.
The thing I'm really curious about is what would happen if scvs only had 40hp compared to 45 (so like the other races)? Basically all those allins or timings that are so hard to deal with use scvs to tank dmg (2rax bunker in tvz, 2 rax reactor-techlab-conc with 8-10scvs vs fe in pvt, marine-scv allins in general, 1-1-1 allin ...). In an actual fight drones and probes don't have time to regenerate their hp (in a rush-szenario). Out of this scvs can repair themselves instead of slowly regenerating (I don't even know the reason why it's harder to kill scvs with phoenix or banelings just because they have more hp with harassment).
EPT
