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This is mostly just so that I can look at these numbers in writing. You neither need to agree with my opinion or bother reading below unless you're interested in doing a some thinking about an unlikely change.
I've added some comments to try and make it slightly more readable.
Of all the options to adjust the strength of Terran without crippling the race as a whole, I can't help but wonder what effects just reducing marine HP by 5 would have on the game, so here are some important numbers that would get adjusted.
Vs Zerg:
Zergling
- would almost always take 1 less attack to kill a marine compared to the current game. As far as upgrades are concerned, +1 armor would be slightly better for Terran if he can get an upgrade advantage as that would add 2 attacks.
Queen
- would have the potential to kill marines in 5 attacks down from 6. + armor upgrades were always very good vs Queen and would remain so, but is typically irrelevant at later points in the game as Queens kind of suck.
Baneling
- would actually be able to 1-shot a marine or a stimmed/shielded marine if they have +2 melee. No amount of armor upgrades will help here.
Roach
- would remain the same for early-game, but getting +2 range vs 0 armor has the potential of allowing for 2-shots down from 3 for a kill.
Hydralisk
- would still suck
Mutalisk
- a +1 air weapon advantage over the marines armor would reduce required mutalisk shots by 1 to kill a main-targetted marine. Glaive bounce damage would still be highly reduced by any armor upgrades.
Broodlord
- would have the potential of killing stimmed/shielded marines with 2 shots, as long as they are within 1 air weapon compared to infantry armor.
Ultralisk
- would still suck
Fungal Growth
- would still take 2 to kill.
Overall, it would have a pretty meaningful effect on TvZ. Terrans might actually have to mix in more than just marine/medivac/siege tank throughout the mid-game due to the change in the relationship with the Baneling, which I think would be beneficial as marine-splitting is getting pretty ridiculous to the point where Banelings are becoming ineffective in general. Considering the top levels of play I think this would actually be a positive change as a solid siege tank push with massive amounts of marines is boring, but the single best use of your money in the current game.
Vs Protoss:
Zealot
- would 2-shot a stimmed/unshielded marine. A +2 weapon lead would 2-shot a stimmed/shielded marine.
Stalker
- would require 4 shots down from 5 to kill an unshielded marine.
Archon
- would 1-shot a marine or stimmed/shielded marine after +2 weapons, no armor would affect this.
Dark Templar
- would always 1-shot marines after +2 weapons regardless of marine upgrades. Most other interactions would go unchanged.
Immortal
- would 2-shot marines on equal upgrades.
Colossus
- would kill a stimmed/unshielded marine in 1 shot, all other interactions would remain virtually unchanged so long as there are reasonable upgrades (3 vs 3 would leave marines at 1 hp instead of 6).
Void Ray
- would kill a marine with 1 less pulse, 2 less pulses if fully charged, and 1 less pulse if fully charged vs no stim/combat shield.
Phoenix
- would kill a marine in 1 less volley on equal upgrades with no stim/shield or stim/shield but remain unchanged otherwise.
Carrier
- lol
PvT would also benefit a lot here. This would effectively bury the 1-1-1 build deep in the ground with no chance of recovery. Virtually all Protoss units outside of the Zealot would become much more effective vs non-upgraded marines which seems to be a big issue in the match right now. Marines would also become less of a threat throughout the mid-late game as Archons would dominate them very hard. Is it possible that with Marines becoming highly undesirable in the match, Marauders would also fall aside? One can only hope...
Vs Terran:
Marines
- would kill each other faster lol
Marauders
- 1 less shot required to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Reaper
- remain the same
Ghost
- require 1 less shot to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Hellion
- require 1 less shot to kill a marine on equal upgrades
Siege Tank
- remain the same
Thor
- remain the same
Banshee
- remain the same
Viking
- slightly less terrible vs marines on the ground
BC
- 1 less attack to kill a marine or stimmed/shielded marine on equal upgrades, no change vs no stim/shield
I was not much of a fan of the hellion raiding phase of TvT, but I am DEFINITELY not a fan of marine/tank play in that match. There is nothing more frustrating to me than watching a guy with 10 siege tanks and 10 marines lose his whole army in a fight vs an opponent with 30 marines. I would welcome a new round of mech vs mech TvT with slightly-less-effective hellion raid runs.
Anyway... that's the end of my post... I just wanted to see the numbers in a place I could compare. Figured I'd write it here and leave it in case anybody actually cares to look.
 
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..So exactly what units do you wish to see mixed in with late game TvZ armies?
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It would be awesome to see reapers get spider mines to go with mech.
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Actually reapers had the G4 clusterbomb in the beta but I assume it was removed due to it being overpowered.
Marines have 45 HP instead of the Brood War 40 for a reason. SCVs also had 60 hp in the beta (once again, like Brood War).
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On October 13 2011 14:20 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Actually reapers had the G4 clusterbomb in the beta but I assume it was removed due to it being overpowered.
Marines have 45 HP instead of the Brood War 40 for a reason. SCVs also had 60 hp in the beta (once again, like Brood War).
So what's the reason exactly? I know the SCV's had their HP reduced from BW's numbers because marine SCV all-ins were hilariously broken, but what about the marine HP change?
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On October 13 2011 14:43 kyarisan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 14:20 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Actually reapers had the G4 clusterbomb in the beta but I assume it was removed due to it being overpowered.
Marines have 45 HP instead of the Brood War 40 for a reason. SCVs also had 60 hp in the beta (once again, like Brood War). So what's the reason exactly? I know the SCV's had their HP reduced from BW's numbers because marine SCV all-ins were hilariously broken, but what about the marine HP change?
I don't think it was a very specific reason, simply that marines all around were not that good with 40 hp.
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I don't get why they got that free 5 hp to begin with. Zerglings are still on 35 hp, it just feels like a free buff for marines while lings and zealots stayed the same.
I think the biggest deal is that stalkers take 5 shots to kill marines instead of 4. 1-1-1 would not sound that strong all of a sudden.
Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ?
Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe.
They would still be cost effective if they had 35 hp anyway !
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Yeah right one shot banelings lol
Maybe if when you kill them they dont' deal fucking damage like infested terrans in BW, then that'd be reasonable.
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IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything.
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I guess one shot banelings is not defined as crippling? lol?
You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective.
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On October 13 2011 17:30 kidcrash wrote:
IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything.
I don't get how that would nerf anything past a certain point. Early game yeah, but marines are very good all around because of the AI allowing a high DPS unit to spread well automatically. Of course the pros spread them manually but the AI still helps a ton.
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On October 13 2011 17:36 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 17:30 kidcrash wrote:
IMO take away 1 range and give them the range upgrade back like in BW expect put it in the reactor since the tech lab is kind of congested as is. Sort of sick how strong rines became, I mean it's not like zealots became stronger since BW or anything. I don't get how that would nerf anything past a certain point. Early game yeah, but marines are very good all around because of the AI allowing a high DPS unit to spread well automatically. Of course the pros spread them manually but the AI still helps a ton.
True it would only nerf early game but things tend to snowball in starcraft especially as far as advantages go. Less pressure early game (due to lack of range plus the investment in the upgrade) = easier expansions and less dead units which leads to larger army sizes late game. Give tanks back some of their siege damage and terran unit compositions will shift themselves naturally into a more varied direction.
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On October 13 2011 17:34 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I guess one shot banelings is not defined as crippling? lol?
You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective.
Hold on, banes would need +2 melee to 1 shot marines. I'm pretty sure you can get combat shield way before +2 melee.
But I agree that micro is already dumb enough as is in sc2, anything that require micro is good for the game, anything 1a style just makes it less exciting or not exciting at all.
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Right, so when Zeals tank hardcore you want Marines to just melt in TvP? Because lately I've been facing HTs AND Colossi in late game and you just need to split like crazy.
Also, we won't be able to pressure Zerg that well. How do we keep up against a 14 Hatch on the now standard huge 4 players maps?
Not to mention that we couldn't pressure Toss at all, and that a mid game army has no chance to win since it always has Marines. I play Synystr's style (mass Banshee) at high Diamond level so don't pull that "get out of bioball mentality" crap, I haven't used one in weeks. And Marines already melt away as things are right now so...
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On October 13 2011 13:41 Jermstuddog wrote:
Vs Zerg:
Hydralisk
- would still suck
Ultralisk
- would still suck
Wut... neither Ultras (especially) or Hydras suck and you could atleast give some insight to the change for these units....
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Ohh responses, and not all terrible hate!
@DoX.)
I would like to see more than Marine/Medivac/Tank be the counter to EVERYTHING through the midgame. Lategame compositions are already fine as they start including Thors, Ravens, Marauders, Ghosts, Vikings, and Hellions. Pretty much the entire gambit of Terran units. Mid game armies are just too dominant being able to streamline production into 1- the highest DPS/cost unit in the game, 2- the longest range unit in the game, and 3- a healer/dropship that makes marines ridiculously good while simultaneously allowing for the best drop harassment currently in the game with no additional investment. Terran should have to invest in SOMETHING else through the mid-game, and I think Marauders would be a fine option.
@ Toppp
the Hydra and Ultralisk relationship wouldn't change. A hydra does 36 damage in 3 shots, 48 damage in 4 shots, and 60 damage in 5 shots. The marine would stick in that range regardless of upgrades or changes to hp current or theoretical.
The Ultra is the same way, it does 30/2 45/3 60/4. 3 hits already kill a marine on equal upgrades and that would remain the same. I guess 2 hits would kill a marine without shield but really who doesn't have shield that late in the game?
Ultras can have some minor arguments to their utility, but generally they're horrible unless you're already WAY ahead. Hydras are always bad in ZvT, sorry.
@Kukaracha
Honestly, I could care less what unit compositions you use in platinum. Nobody at the highest levels is using anything other than 1-1-1 and mass marauder with ghost/marines sprinkled in. Everybody who knows anything about Starcraft hates the Marauder and what it's done to SC2 TvP. I am not saying reducing marine HP would steer Terrans away from Marauders either. I honestly don't know, I am just hoping.
To all the haters, I am not saying Terran just needs a straight nerf and leave it that way. I am all for buffing other things, I think siege mode siege tanks could use +10 damage vs armored for one. My hate is directed at the Marine, not necessarily Terran as a whole.
For the Baneling 1-shotting Marines, yes... it would be vastly different compared to current gameplay. However, top-level terrans are facing down mid-game zerg armies with 30+ banelings and only 5-7 are connecting in current gameplay. All I am suggesting is that those 5-7 guarantee marine kills instead of dealing 60% of their HP worth of damage. Adding Marauders would definitely help there, but have reduced effectiveness against lings/mutas, an effect I would be ok with in the match.
Right now, I don't consider Banelings an adequate counter to Marines, and if you do, you're not watching the pros enough, banelings generally aren't doing what they set out to do. If 1-shotting marines proves to be too OP in the end, I would be all for a reduction in baneling damage before increasing marine HP again if needed.
For a laughable comparison, imagine if siege tanks self-destructed after 3 shots. Would they still be a viable counter to lings? I highly doubt it.
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Remember marines also got free range upgrade comparing to bw.
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Blizzard seems to have forgotten "meaningless" range upgrades in general. The only range upgrades currently in the game are the hydralisk and the colossus, and I would go so far as to say the hydra upgrade should have been removed as well rather than nerfing marines and stalkers back to equivalent stupidity.
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Banelings killing Marines in one hit rather than 2 would be quite interesting. It'd be super imba for ladder noobs though as their splits aren't that great. But I think it would be really interesting at the professional level where Banelings really... are pretty bad for their cost.
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EPT
