EPTOn October 13 2011 13:56 sam!zdat wrote:
It would be awesome to see reapers get spider mines to go with mech.
It would be awesome to see reapers get spider mines to go with mech.
voltures that can jump up and down the cliff? sounds awesome lol :D
The effects of reducing Marine hp by 5 - Page 2
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
voltures that can jump up and down the cliff? sounds awesome lol :D | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On October 13 2011 16:56 baba1 wrote: I don't get why they got that free 5 hp to begin with. Zerglings are still on 35 hp, it just feels like a free buff for marines while lings and zealots stayed the same. I think the biggest deal is that stalkers take 5 shots to kill marines instead of 4. 1-1-1 would not sound that strong all of a sudden. Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe. They would still be cost effective if they had 35 hp anyway ! Not only that but Marine range in BW was 5 with a +1 upgrade but they start as 6 in SC2. I feel like Blizz were trying to force Marine viability, much like Ghosts Also, come to think of it, should T not need a Ghost Academy for scan, shields, stim and shells? Curious | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
On October 14 2011 03:06 Eishi_Ki wrote: Not only that but Marine range in BW was 5 with a +1 upgrade but they start as 6 in SC2. I feel like Blizz were trying to force Marine viability, much like Ghosts Also, come to think of it, should T not need a Ghost Academy for scan, shields, stim and shells? Curious That would make way too much sense bro. And for everyone saying that banes would 1 shot marines and be too strong, you clearly have not been on the receiving end of a siege tanks group that obliterate everything from 13 range, 1 shotting zerglings and banelings without even trying or paying attention. 1 siege tank shot = 10 banelings dead and your siege tank doesn't have to blow himself up in melee range to do dmg. You realise all that gas wasted for zerg just for walking in the 13 range? Sorry if your mineral only marines get killed by a gas heavy melee kamikaze. And it's not like terran can't just stim and run around until tanks 1 shotted all the banes too. | ||
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Spessi
304 Posts
When it doesnt require marines to keep most tier 3 units alive because they need to be babysat by marines...you'll see less marines. And everything that makes marines valuable...makes late game marines just as valuable. So anything like reducing the range and then giving it an upgrade is just going to make a necessary upgrade that MIGHT nerf the early game but effectively won't matter in the mid or late game, because it will become like warpgate. If you're going to make more than 1 marine...you're going to get range, and you'll probably get it as soon as physically possible. unless you're doing a zero gateway unit build...you're going to get warpgate. | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
On October 14 2011 05:02 Spessi wrote: My only thought on the marine is this: When it doesnt require marines to keep most tier 3 units alive because they need to be babysat by marines...you'll see less marines. And everything that makes marines valuable...makes late game marines just as valuable. So anything like reducing the range and then giving it an upgrade is just going to make a necessary upgrade that MIGHT nerf the early game but effectively won't matter in the mid or late game, because it will become like warpgate. If you're going to make more than 1 marine...you're going to get range, and you'll probably get it as soon as physically possible. unless you're doing a zero gateway unit build...you're going to get warpgate. Those kind of small tweaks end up do more to mid-late game than you would imagine. Paying 150/150 and waiting for your rines to get that extra range means your opponent can take an easier expansion which is an advantage that transitions into mid game. What about terran holding early pressure with rines missing that +1 range? I'm sure taking early-game damage is something that would easily snowball into mid game as well. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On October 13 2011 17:34 Itsmedudeman wrote: You think the marine is boring but what unit is exactly "exciting" to you? Marine splitting is basically one of the only worthwhile micro tactics worth watching. Everything is boring as shit because it takes the dexterity of a diamond level player. Sc2 spell casting is a complete joke as it is. Mech in TvZ is infinitely worse to watch from an entertainment perspective. Idk Nestea vs MVP was pretty exciting and he won with mech twice | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
why dont we just nerf the zergling, god damn tier 1 unit that is still used in the late game, nerf it! | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 14 2011 06:33 turdburgler wrote: why are people so mad about "core units" why dont we just nerf the zergling, god damn tier 1 unit that is still used in the late game, nerf it! Zerglings and Zealots DID get nerfed in the transfer from BW. Marines got a massive buff. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On October 14 2011 06:45 zeru wrote: Only zealot got nerfed actually, 10 less shield (but take less time to build pre-warp gate). Lings have the same stats, but also less time to build. Marine more hp, but more time to build. If you consider the fact that adrenal glands are not as good anymore, zerglings took a huge nerf. Marines are definitely problematic as they are very strong vs. all matchups and too strong for a tier 1 unit. 5 health reduction seems perfectly reasonable to me.. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On October 13 2011 16:56 baba1 wrote: Make marines start with 40 hp and then make it +15 with combat shield for 55 total ? Everything that counters marines (colo, infestors, banes, storms, etc...) would still be as effective but lower dps units, especially stalkers, wouldn't suck so bad against them. Maybe. I've always thought this would have been fair. As it is, marines are insanely good early game, and pretty fair late game. This change would nerf terran all-ins without affecting any late game terran play that involve combat shield | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
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kenkou
United States235 Posts
Also, early game usage of forcefield would seem extremely powerful. Being able to outrange marines would have the same effect as forcefielding roaches. I'm not too sure how it would effect TvZ, as the only units that have similar range to marines are hydra's. Even then, they start out with 5 range. There would be some overall damage reduction early on, but nothing much else. I can't say I agree with the HP decrease, to me the baneling would seem too powerful. If banelings can 1 shot marines at any point, speed banes on creep just seems to be too punishing. People are getting very good at spreading creep and there are periods where you MUST engage on creep to do damage. Makes those situations completely lopsided if it wasn't already before. Overall instead of diversifying the matchup, I think people might stop using marines completely. TvT a month back was majority mech, as the hellion was a very effective unit against marines pre-1.4 (it still is though, just not as good). I believe the same thing would happen in the other two matchups and we'll have another reaper like unit. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 14 2011 06:45 zeru wrote: Only zealot got nerfed actually, 10 less shield (but take less time to build pre-warp gate). Lings have the same stats, but also less time to build. Marine more hp, but more time to build. *sigh* OK, here's a StarCraft history lesson for those who don't know. Effects on base units going from BW to SC2: The Marine: -The Marine got a massive DPS boost, +5hp, and +1 range out-the-door. -Stimpack got nerfed from a 100% DPS increase down to 50%, this, in conjunction with the massive boost to baseline marine DPS means that stimmed marines do roughly equal damage between the two games in comparison to the majority of units, SC2 marines might do slightly more but not significantly so. -Stimpack got a massive movement speed boost. I am not absolutely sure of the stats on the BW stimpack as they don't list movement in easy-to-read places, but stimmed marines were nowhere near as fast as they are in SC2. -Combat Shield is a completely new upgrade providing an additional 10hp on top of their already increased HP total, this has huge ramifications in both TvZ and TvP as a SC2 marine is worth nearly 1.5 BW marines if you're counting hp or hits-to-kill. Marines were NOT VIABLE in BW TvP because even with stim and medivacs, they still got 2 shot by Zealots before they could deal their damage. -The way units clump up in SC2 causes marines to have a massive amount of damage-per-space due to their small size and 5 range. A roach with 145 hp and 1 base armor will die in under one second on the approach to shoot at a group of 215 marines, dealing 0 damage in the process. -SC2 Marines take 1 second longer to build than in BW. Other units that affect the Marine: -Medivacs heal more efficiently, faster, and at a longer range than Medics did. Medivacs also provide for 8 marine drops with a healer built in rather than 7+healer or 8 marines with 0 healing from Brood War, making drops significantly more robust and powerful. -Thors provide better coverage vs Mutalisks, allowing Marines to spread out without issue in mid-late game TvZ not to mention the increased speed and HP makes it much more dangerous for mutas to dive in for a few kills anyway. In BW, Mutalisks could CONSTANTLY pick at your marine count. -Reactors mean that a Terran can produce marines at a much faster rate through the mid-game. Where as 8-10 Barracks was a good number for all your marine/medic/firebat in BW, it's not uncommon to see 14+ marines being produced per cycle in SC2. Literally the only negative changes to the Marine coming over from BW is +1 second to their build time and reduction in stim DPS, which isn't really a nerf at all... The Zergling: -Zerglings deal significantly less damage compared to their BW counterpart. -Zerglings stack up tightly when moving, but somehow manage to find less surface-area when attacking units/buildings compared to BW. This has the effect of both making them more susceptible to splash damage while approaching units and reducing effective DPS because only 2 or 3 Zerglings seem to be able to attack where 3 or 4 would have in BW. -Metabolic Boost makes Zerglings slightly faster than their BW counterparts. This is especially notable when combined with the 30% speed boost on creep, making Zerglings on creep the fastest unit in the game by almost 2 full units per second. -Adrenal Glands got reduced to 15% down from 20%, making endgame ling dps laughable when compared to their BW counterparts. -Unlimited unit selection probably has more bonus for Zerglings than any other unit in the game. With the simple combination of 1-A-Click you can send over 100 zerglings to attack a specific area on the map with no more micro required. Other unit changes that affect the Zergling: -The lack of the Defiler and Dark Swarm makes Zerglings a significantly reduced threat in the late game. -The Baneling forces marine splits, allowing for the fatter Zergling in SC2 to be able to gain surface area when fighting vs marines, somewhat increasing their effective DPS. -The Inject Larva mechanic makes Zerglings in SC2 much more plentiful than they were in BW. Zerglings have always been cheap, but Queens are half the price of a hatchery and actually produce MORE larva, making the cheap zergling a natural use of larva. Almost every change to the Zergling affects it in a negative way. The two major bonuses being that they are faster and easier to produce in large numbers. They are not nearly as cost-effective as they were in BW however, so you're not getting as good a deal as it may seem. The Zealot -The Zealot got -10 to shield health crossing over from BW, but their shields are considered light where a BW shield took maximum damage from all damage types as well as the fact that shields regenerate significantly faster after a few seconds out of combat. -Charge is generally not as good as Leg Enhancement. While it sounded exciting initially, Charge has proven to provide significantly less of a general speed buff to Zealots and only gives the minor utility of a short-distance charge when they are already under fire. In many ways, charge makes retreating with a Zealot force undesirable due to their lower natural speed. Charge also makes Zealots significantly worse at worker harass than in BW. Other units affecting the Zealot: -The Zealot gains the utility of Warp Gate in SC2, allowing it to be warped in anywhere there is a power field, this includes your enemies base or in the middle of a battle, provided there is a pylon or warp prism nearby. -Guardian Shield, when combined with +armor upgrades can make Zealots very tanky vs quick, ranged, light-damage attacks, specifically the Marine. Zealots were never very good in BW to begin with. Their best use was in PvT to assist mech armies in killing themselves by dropping on top of them and allowing their massive, friendly splash damage to do all the work. That being said, SC2 hasn't helped their case any, they are generally slower, weaker, and nobody uses mech so who cares. TLDR: Marines got all the good, Zerglings got all the bad, and Zealots could have probably used a boost, but went the opposite direction instead. | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
-The Zealot gains the utility of Warp Gate in SC2, allowing it to be warped in anywhere there is a power field, this includes your enemies base or in the middle of a battle, provided there is a pylon or warp prism nearby. TLDR: Marines got all the good, Zerglings got all the bad, and Zealots could have probably used a boost, but went the opposite direction instead. So what? You got the ability to warp in Zealots anywhere on the map and in 5 seconds. I'll take that over my Brood War Zealots anyday. | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:38 kenkou wrote: With the 1 less range with early game marines, I would presume voidray allins would be too powerful. Having both stalkers and voidray have the same range as bunkered marines will make wallins too easily punishable. Being able to target down depots with both stalkers and voids without getting hit would be way to easy to break, and no amount of SCV repair will help. Also, early game usage of forcefield would seem extremely powerful. Being able to outrange marines would have the same effect as forcefielding roaches. I'm not too sure how it would effect TvZ, as the only units that have similar range to marines are hydra's. Even then, they start out with 5 range. There would be some overall damage reduction early on, but nothing much else. I can't say I agree with the HP decrease, to me the baneling would seem too powerful. If banelings can 1 shot marines at any point, speed banes on creep just seems to be too punishing. People are getting very good at spreading creep and there are periods where you MUST engage on creep to do damage. Makes those situations completely lopsided if it wasn't already before. Overall instead of diversifying the matchup, I think people might stop using marines completely. TvT a month back was majority mech, as the hellion was a very effective unit against marines pre-1.4 (it still is though, just not as good). I believe the same thing would happen in the other two matchups and we'll have another reaper like unit. Terran would actually require scouting and reaction (imagine that) if they wanted to survive a void ray all in. Scan the toss base and respond with a quick +1 range upgrade and you are all set. A stalker wall bust would be a bit scary but I think it would warrant quick factory + siege mode builds. I for one would be content with seeing more mech play in TvP and I wouldn't be against giving siege tanks some of their damage back in compensation for marines losing the built-in +1 range. As far as losing the range making forcefield too powerful, I think that would be completely fair. Sentry costs more than a marine, why shouldn't it be stronger than terrans most basic unit? | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
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Cain0
United Kingdom608 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:41 arsenic wrote: Banelings killing Marines in one hit rather than 2 would be quite interesting. It'd be super imba for ladder noobs though as their splits aren't that great. But I think it would be really interesting at the professional level where Banelings really... are pretty bad for their cost. Banelings are brilliant at the level I play at but then I watch MKP split marines and I realise how awful banelings are at a decent level. I think that something has to be donw about this as there is no point in having a unit in the game that becomes more and more worthless the higher level of skill you play at. :/. (edit: Oh wait, we are getting a baneling launcher LOL) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Play the game as it is, or make equivalent thread discussing reducing Zergling HP and Zealot HP. Take the nerf Terran propaganda bandwagon to the blizzard bnet forums. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
lol  | ||
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