EPT
The effects of reducing Marine hp by 5 - Page 3
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
No one is brainwashed by artosis, most people here have followed 10 years+ of brood war where mech was the standard and required forethought and precision to use - not just 1A or random doom drops and backstabs/suiciding units pretending to be good. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:31 GhostOwl wrote: If you consider the fact that adrenal glands are not as good anymore, zerglings took a huge nerf. Marines are definitely problematic as they are very strong vs. all matchups and too strong for a tier 1 unit. 5 health reduction seems perfectly reasonable to me.. Wonderful sweeping generalizations, watch I can make them too Carriers are too strong, even for a tier 3 unit. Broodlords cost too little gas, they are too good against deathballs. Marauders are too weak and don't see enough use, they should be buffed. Obviously my statements are wrong, but they are easy to make, if you are going to make a generalization like "unit x is too y in z" you better have something to back it up. Proof in other words. Seriously I challenge every person here to prove, empirically that marines are too strong. Not that they are "stronger than in BW " or "really good", but that they are actually overpowered to the point where they need to be nerfed. If you can't then don't bother proposing a change, because your motivation is suspect. | ||
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John Madden
American Samoa894 Posts
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
In terms of the OP, the most meaningful changes are the Baneling, stalker and VR changes. The baneling change would make marines past the fifteen minute useless for anyone in a lower league than masters. What do you propose they change that too? You need to deal with Mutalisks and Zerglings. Hellions can't shoot up, You need a ton of Thors to get cost effective vs Zerglings (and if your opponent can magic box you are completely SOL). How do you deal with Ling/Bling/Muta if you can't marine split like a pro? I could buy the value of the Stalker change, but like the OP states, marines become much less useful late game, probably see even more of the almost pure marauder ghost ground army for Terran. But the decrease compared to the VRs does concern me. The three Gate VR all-ins are already very powerful, capable of punishing most Terran fast expands in the Void Rays can be hidden. This would make those rushes even harder to hold off. This would in turn require safer Terran expands, reducing the power of the Terran army going into the mid/late game that you just nerfed. Changing Marine HP won't have much effect on the TvT meta-game. Marine/Tank vs Mech already incorporates a decent amount of marauders, and hellions die too quick to be very effective in the large late game battles. It isn't until it effects marine vs siege tank that effects start happening The marine is the bread and butter Terran unit - this is why Blizz has probably been so reluctant to nerf it. It is integral to all the Terran match-ups, in that in can deal with everything well. It doesn't really hardcounter anything (except maybe mutalisks), but it can trade well with everything except the high tier AOE units. This means that if you make it unviable, you now have a very large cap to fill, that can't be filled by just one unit, you need two or three, and suddenly Terran armies need twice as many resources (particularly gas) to be effective. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On October 20 2011 13:41 OmniEulogy wrote: just make zlots and 2 shot the marines. How exactly do zealots 2shot marines if marine-hp would be reduced to 40? Two attacks from a zealot would do 32dmg (each attack dealing 2x8dmg). However, I'm also not sure if this would not break early game defence vs certain allins for terrans. You need to be very careful about buffing or nerfing basic units. The thing I'm really curious about is what would happen if scvs only had 40hp compared to 45 (so like the other races)? Basically all those allins or timings that are so hard to deal with use scvs to tank dmg (2rax bunker in tvz, 2 rax reactor-techlab-conc with 8-10scvs vs fe in pvt, marine-scv allins in general, 1-1-1 allin ...). In an actual fight drones and probes don't have time to regenerate their hp (in a rush-szenario). Out of this scvs can repair themselves instead of slowly regenerating (I don't even know the reason why it's harder to kill scvs with phoenix or banelings just because they have more hp with harassment). | ||
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