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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
All I ever wanted was a macro game.
Believe it or not, I'm one of the three (3) Terran players on the ladder who doesn't ban Tal'Darim Altar... and when we played yesterday, I was in a good mood. After the "gl hf"s were exchanged, I was setting up for my 1 rax FE when I noticed something weird: my barracks had barely started and there was already a probe in my base.
Suddenly my mind was alert with gamer sense, which, slow though it was for me, was telling me that something was afoot.
cheese proxy pylon early scout cannon rush whats he doing why's he so curious why isn't he harassing me whats going on cheese is he cheesing me it's tal darim proxy pylon 2gate 2gate2gate
I immediately peel off an scv to chase his probe, then send another one scouting for his base.
15 Nexus. He wasn't scouting to cheese, he was scouting because he was afraid.
There's no way I can catch up.
With a tear in my eye, I begin my bunker rush. I pull the chase scv off to make another bunker. He scouts them, and pulls probes-- but the bunkers are up against each other, and they both go up. I don't even have units to put in them... I only have a rax and a marine. But he doesn't know that.
No, he thinks I'm cheesing him. He cancels the nexus, and I salvage and go home.
A minute later, my reaper scouts 4 gates in his base. I 1/1/1 allin in response.
</3
I'm sorry, Rangerone. I never meant for it to be this way, I swear. I swear. It's okay that the loser here left without a gg. It wasn't a gg, no, not at all.
I don't even know what I should feel, but I know what I do feel...
Heartbreak.
15 nexus vs 1 rax FE? No, my bad, I meant 4gate against 1/1/1 allin. Damn you, ladder. Damn you to hell.
 
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double expand and profit next time maybe?
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So you punish a greedy economic cheese with some pressure.
Dude, you are no douchebag, you are just a smart player. Don't feel bad because you do what wins, lol.
If you didn't do it this blog might be a balance rant about a 2base push by P.
But your response was kinda weird. You could've won the game right away.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I don't really know how to deal with 15 nex on Tal'darim Altar. Bunker rush seemed appropriate, but there was no way my 1 marine would get there in time to do anything-- and if I hang out and just go ahead with my FE he'll execute a hilarious 2-base timing. Same if I go for a quick third, especially since terran expos cost 550 minerals, and there are rocks at the third base.
I didn't make a 2nd production facility until after he canceled the nexus because I was so surprised. 15 nexus is less common than, like, cannon rush, at least in my experience. And nobody uses cannon rush anyways.
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Haha the tear in my eye line reads like you're putting down a helpless animal. So much regret and distraught, you're trying to tell yourself you're a good person but deep down you're a murderer SILLY CHEESER
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On September 08 2011 02:29 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't really know how to deal with 15 nex on Tal'darim Altar. Bunker rush seemed appropriate, but there was no way my 1 marine would get there in time to do anything-- and if I hang out and just go ahead with my FE he'll execute a hilarious 2-base timing. Same if I go for a quick third, especially since terran expos cost 550 minerals, and there are rocks at the third base.
I didn't make a 2nd production facility until after he canceled the nexus because I was so surprised. 15 nexus is less common than, like, cannon rush, at least in my experience. And nobody uses cannon rush anyways.
Okay look at this way:
If he places a 15 nexus, want kind of production does he have?
None.
Even if you'd just send one marine, with proper micro you could've killed him(Okay maybe thats a bit too much :D). Or at least deal so much damage that his economy goes down heavily.
Now imagine if you'd send 5 marines; or 10.
It's the reason you bunker rush vs 15 hatch: he has no decent production to be safe early enough.
15 Nexus / Hatch is economic cheese in a way that it's expanding without being completely safe. Punishing that is the right way to deal with it.
Don't feel bad, feel good that your gut feeling was completely right.
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this thread actually kinda makes me sad :[
edit;
for the 15 nex thing, maybe try rushing to the reaper
they dont get a stalker for a bit so you kinda just laugh at their zealot O-o.
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LOL
but kidding aside you would feel worse losing to a cheese.
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HAHAHAHAH, this was hilarious!
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lol
just man up and start doing some 111 scv all-ins like every good terran should.
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Um, 1 Rax gas-less FE is just fine against a 15 Nexus and it is not a BO loss at all. Seems like you are trying to justify your cheese by saying that it is an surmountable position. Like the first poster said, just expand to your 3rd early or be aggro and stop the Protoss 3rd. Why do you assume that the P is just going to all in off a two-base timing and not just trying to play a macro game as well?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:20 denzelz wrote:
Um, 1 Rax gas-less FE is just fine against a 15 Nexus and it is not a BO loss at all. Seems like you are trying to justify your cheese by saying that it is an surmountable position. Like the first poster said, just expand to your 3rd early or be aggro and stop the Protoss 3rd. Why do you assume that the P is just going to all in off a two-base timing and not just trying to play a macro game as well?
It was actually going to be a 1 rax reaper FE. I'm fairly sure that it's very hard to hold a 2 base all-in from 15 nexus using a 1 rax FE, because the attack hits substantially quicker and more brutally than a similar attack from a 3gate sentry expo or a 2 gate robo expo.
The fact of the matter is, Protoss has a variety of very very strong 2 base timings off of 15 nexus that are hard to hold as terran, especially on a map like Tal'darim. The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down, and you can't NOT prepare for a 2-base allin against 15 nexus-- assuming quick third from the protoss is very dangerous.
Perhaps if I were a better player and playing at your level, your strategies would apply. Down here, though, I'll have to stick with what works for me. Thanks for the advice though.
EDIT: And by the way, if a guy uses a build that seems to automatically lose to a bunker rush, I'm not sure that's really my fault. If he went 1 gate FE, for example, which is economically worse than a 15 nexus, but substantially safer, we would both be chilling and doing our thangs with a normal macro game. It's also worth noting that for a while I was only mining with 9 scvs (1 was making a refinery, 1 was making a rax, 1 was chasing his probe and 1 was scouting) due to the fear of cheese, somewhat delaying my expo, etc. I wasn't economically doing too hot.
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This guy went 15 nexus against me on Shattered Temple. He tried to like forge 3 cannon block his front. Which would of worked if I hadn't gone 2 rax reaper and let my minerals skyrocket to 2k while killing all his probes.
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On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down
What?
Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack.
Too many excuses - if you want to play a macro game, play a macro game.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:31 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down What? Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack. Too many excuses.
That's a fair point. If I hold the tower between our bases I should be able to see probes/stalkers or whatever coming. I have trouble doing this though, after a stalker comes out. Should I be sending marauders and committing a small force to do this, or just retreat from the tower after he's poking around with his stalker?
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On September 08 2011 03:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 03:31 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down What? Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack. Too many excuses. That's a fair point. If I hold the tower between our bases I should be able to see probes/stalkers or whatever coming. I have trouble doing this though, after a stalker comes out. Should I be sending marauders and committing a small force to do this, or just retreat from the tower after he's poking around with his stalker?
Terran is far more able to split up their forces in that matchup, you can afford to leave a marauder or whatnot at the tower against a stalker. His unit count won't be high early on due to the 15nex, so I'd say scouting aggressively and controlling the map is important for seeing his midgame shenanigans.
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one marauder + one marine should be enough
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:36 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 03:34 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 03:31 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down What? Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack. Too many excuses. That's a fair point. If I hold the tower between our bases I should be able to see probes/stalkers or whatever coming. I have trouble doing this though, after a stalker comes out. Should I be sending marauders and committing a small force to do this, or just retreat from the tower after he's poking around with his stalker? Terran is far more able to split up their forces in that matchup, you can afford to leave a marauder or whatnot at the tower against a stalker. His unit count won't be high early on due to the 15nex, so I'd say scouting aggressively and controlling the map is important for seeing his midgame shenanigans.
That makes sense. As an aside, does 15 Nexus (when scouted) suffer build order loss from any Terran builds, or is it safe? Because if I can get a free win from 15 Nexus, I'd rather take that than play a somewhat risky/tricky midgame scouting deal. It seems like the bunker rush might be an effective, if cheesy solution-- but maybe a concussive shells or stim timing can slip in?
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On September 08 2011 03:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 03:36 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:34 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 03:31 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down What? Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack. Too many excuses. That's a fair point. If I hold the tower between our bases I should be able to see probes/stalkers or whatever coming. I have trouble doing this though, after a stalker comes out. Should I be sending marauders and committing a small force to do this, or just retreat from the tower after he's poking around with his stalker? Terran is far more able to split up their forces in that matchup, you can afford to leave a marauder or whatnot at the tower against a stalker. His unit count won't be high early on due to the 15nex, so I'd say scouting aggressively and controlling the map is important for seeing his midgame shenanigans. That makes sense. As an aside, does 15 Nexus (when scouted) suffer build order loss from any Terran builds, or is it safe? Because if I can get a free win from 15 Nexus, I'd rather take that than play a somewhat risky/tricky midgame scouting deal. It seems like the bunker rush might be an effective, if cheesy solution-- but maybe a concussive shells or stim timing can slip in?
Ehh, I don't use 15 nex myself so I have no idea on this one. I'd assume something like 2rax would punish it as much as it hurts any other sort of extremely quick expansion (huks 20nex, normal 1gate fe, etc). Then, as you notice, you can force 1base vs 1base.
Or you can just expand and outmacro like a boss, warm in the knowledge you kicked his ass despite the earlygame econ lead.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:50 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 03:40 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 03:36 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:34 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 03:31 Dfgj wrote:On September 08 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:
The third is blocked by rocks, which means you need to vacate your bunkers to break them down What? Just send a few units earlier in the game to start wearing down the rocks. You can have units in more than one place. And hold the towers, so you can pull whatever you send back in case of a (scoutable) timing attack. Too many excuses. That's a fair point. If I hold the tower between our bases I should be able to see probes/stalkers or whatever coming. I have trouble doing this though, after a stalker comes out. Should I be sending marauders and committing a small force to do this, or just retreat from the tower after he's poking around with his stalker? Terran is far more able to split up their forces in that matchup, you can afford to leave a marauder or whatnot at the tower against a stalker. His unit count won't be high early on due to the 15nex, so I'd say scouting aggressively and controlling the map is important for seeing his midgame shenanigans. That makes sense. As an aside, does 15 Nexus (when scouted) suffer build order loss from any Terran builds, or is it safe? Because if I can get a free win from 15 Nexus, I'd rather take that than play a somewhat risky/tricky midgame scouting deal. It seems like the bunker rush might be an effective, if cheesy solution-- but maybe a concussive shells or stim timing can slip in? Ehh, I don't use 15 nex myself so I have no idea on this one. I'd assume something like 2rax would punish it as much as it hurts any other sort of extremely quick expansion (huks 20nex, normal 1gate fe, etc). Then, as you notice, you can force 1base vs 1base. Or you can just expand and outmacro like a boss, warm in the knowledge you kicked his ass despite the earlygame econ lead.
Hm. I think I'll stick with that, then, rather than giving the letting the protoss take an unpunished early economical lead.
Ugly though it is, I think this is what I must do when I see 15 Nexus on the ladder.
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EPT
