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I just wanted to write down some random thoughts on the viability of multiple observers in matchups and get some feed back from the community on the topic. I don't see many pro level players do this, but I have seen MC start to do it recently.
This is something I've always done, moreso versus Terran. On most maps, I'll opt for the 1 gate, fast robo to scout and make a reactive play. I tend to favor the twilight tech after that, which will often leave me with a robo that's made one observer, one or two immortals to help hold early pressure, and then go stagnant.
What I've had some success with is just pumping out 3-4 observers from that robo and placing them in strategic locations around the map. Drops, attack paths, etc. Obviously this isn't so viable if your first observer scouts a potential one base play, but in longer games, it gives me plenty of backup observers should they get scanned and amazing map vision.
I've tried it in games against Zerg with varying degrees of success, but often, when I make the robo in that match up, it's being used to create attacking units the entire time.
The downside to this is obviously that you're not producing an immortal or a collosus, which depending on your situation,could be potentially detremental. I don't know that I'd ever prioritize a secondary observer over a collosus in the obvious situations. The problem that generates more question for me, is whether or not it is viable to drop 75 gas on that many observers, especially early game. Favoring the council tech, each observer is half of a High Templar.
I've often found that even if I had the extra templar or two in situations that I've died, they probably would not have made the difference.
So, what are other Protoss players thoughts on multiple observer play? Is the gas and robo build time too valuable? Or is information the ultimate resource and worth the investment? Let me know your experience with the multi-observer play in all match ups and how you feel about it.
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Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game.
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On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game.
Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea
Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: (
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I honestly think we've moved away from the times when Robotics was just a "Colossus factory" and you'd never dare to spend the production time on anything else. So in that regard, I don't think it's that important anymore, investing in Robo is almost certainly worth it just for Observers, Warp Prisms and early Immortals (and will be especially after patch). Not having Colossi doesn't feel much of a downside at all for me, especially in PvT.
Having a HT or two more in the early midgame (just as you get Storm) should almost certainly make a difference in any encounter that involves Terran bio (which is the case 99% of the time). I don't think that having multiple Observers that early is any more beneficial in comparison at that point in the game.
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On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: (
Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
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On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
Having many observers isn't a bad idea at all.
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Late game, yes. Multiple observers are incredibly helpful to spot drops, counterattacks, or just having prepared backups. They aren't something I would rush for though due to the gas investment. There's also the issue that you can't produce colossus during observer production. So, if I scouted x build and decided colossi would be a good response, I would opt not to build additional observers. On the other hand, if I choose to do some kind of zealot archon ht build, then I would consider getting 2-3 more observers.
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I tend to just make about 2. One for scouting your opponent's base and another one patrolling the drop areas (wide open spaces of air between you and your opponent), then get a DT or a cloaked unit for the watch tower.
My 'standard' build is a 2 gate robo expand so it's pretty handy to get out observers early game. I don't usually like stalkers that much as I tend to build Archons instead of Colossus. It saves gas and it's pretty nice when your opponent thinks you built the Robo Facility for colossus when instead you built it to get obs speed lol
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On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game.
But if your obs spots a drop which you kill without it doing any damage that is a big return on your investment.
And knowing their tech so that you have the optimal response in unit composition even with the new gas restraint can mean you fight more cost effectively and make up for the initial outlay for the observers.
Of course, not a good idea to delay certain key tech timings that are vital for survival.
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The limiting resource here is time (on the robo), not really the gas. You'll find as you face better opponents that you will likely need your robo to build attacking units rather than observers, but if it works for you, then that's great. 
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On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
Constantly scouting with obs and not being vulnerable to drops? That sounds like a pretty solid foundation to grow upon.
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I did this all the time in BW, and it ought to be no different in SC2. Information is everything, and late game there is nothing stopping you from setting a little supply aside for more obs.
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On August 31 2011 12:43 Fontong wrote:
I did this all the time in BW, and it ought to be no different in SC2. Information is everything, and late game there is nothing stopping you from setting a little supply aside for more obs.
It was commonplace in BW for protoss to have basically entire map vision by obs with vision upgrade against terran. It would be amazing in SC2 if you weren't doing a robo-intensive build. A chargelot oriented build would be completely perfect.
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I agree with you OP but I only make 1-2 in the early game, then in the transition as the gas at my expo is starting to kick in fully I'll chrono another 2-3 depending if any died and the map size.
As a former broodwar player I gotta say I love it. it works against high masters and gives me map vision and a good sense of control as I can rally patrol 2 of the obs to cover for drops and to scout possible expansions. My play style early on is heavy chargelot as well so the gas use doesnt throw me off too much.
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On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
I'd like to know why you feel that having more map vision is a strategy that works only against bad players. Logically, one would think that the more knowledge that you had against a 'good' player, the better off you would be.
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On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
Coca is clearly a terribly shitty player.
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On September 01 2011 00:14 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea I'd like to know why you feel that having more map vision is a strategy that works only against bad players. Logically, one would think that the more knowledge that you had against a 'good' player, the better off you would be.
I think its more of an idea that if your getting that many observers and not dying to some sort of timing or have a weaker army comp and not producing units from your robo that you must be better than your opponet. The extra observers probally just help you win a game you would have won anyways. Now if you were playing an extremely good player maybe you couldnt afford to make those observers.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea
No. Practicing a style that works at your level until it stops working is a fantastic idea. Trying to play a grandmaster style when you aren't grandmaster is a terrible idea.
At lower levels, making multiple observers so that you can play reactively is an awesome idea.
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On September 01 2011 00:52 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea No. Practicing a style that works at your level until it stops working is a fantastic idea. Trying to play a grandmaster style when you aren't grandmaster is a terrible idea. At lower levels, making multiple observers so that you can play reactively is an awesome idea.
I think there are better ways to do it though. Isnt it better to have a probe or pylon placed in strategic locations. It seems that would be better way to spend your resources then taking the time away from the robo.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On September 01 2011 00:57 Darkdeath3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 00:52 Chill wrote:On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea No. Practicing a style that works at your level until it stops working is a fantastic idea. Trying to play a grandmaster style when you aren't grandmaster is a terrible idea. At lower levels, making multiple observers so that you can play reactively is an awesome idea. I think there are better ways to do it though. Isnt it better to have a probe or pylon placed in strategic locations. It seems that would be better way to spend your resources then taking the time away from the robo.
You're oversimplifying a complicated problem. If he chooses to play Gateway style and thinks of his Robotics Facility only as a tool to make Observers, then it's fine. Is it better to use Probes? Maybe, but they're harder to manage, see less, are easier to kill, etc. The Observer is better, but is it worth the cost? Maybe. And to the OP, it is.
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On September 01 2011 00:52 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:32 CharlieBrownsc wrote:On August 31 2011 11:24 happyness wrote:On August 31 2011 11:18 Probulous wrote:
Incontrol would like to talk to you...
Information is important but that gas is a massive opportunity cost at that stage of the game. Most of us aren't on grandmaster level though. For most of us I think it's a great idea Having 3-4 observers I feel is great for both PvZ and PvT. Especially with soooo many zerg going for infested marine abuse >: ( Practising a style that only works against shitty players is a terrible idea No. Practicing a style that works at your level until it stops working is a fantastic idea. Trying to play a grandmaster style when you aren't grandmaster is a terrible idea. At lower levels, making multiple observers so that you can play reactively is an awesome idea.
This. Plus, making multiple observers so that you can play reactively is awesome at any level.
Any time I do 1 gate expand into fast charge+archon+etc., as is becomming more popular, I get 3+ observers asap if I made the robo early (sometimes it's not necessary... like if they went 2 rax aggression or something).
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
I love the idea. On top of the points that people have made, I'd like to just add a minor thing that may be obvious, but could still be worth stating, and that's simply; having more observers encourages looking at the mini-map more, as well as setting up nice hot-keys for units/camera positions
If you've invested so much into this map information, then surely you're going to pay more attention to the mini-map, to make this investment worthwhile. I'm a low level player (mid-gold right now, but trying as always) and I can comfortably say that I look at the game screen way too much (and then die when a drop comes into my base)
Camera positions, well you quickly see what's coming so you have slightly more time to react. Win!
Gonna try this next time I roll Protoss
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I like going for a few/multiple obs if I'm planning a non-robo play. Like gateway/upgrades or something. Make obs until like 3 bases then you can just slam a 2nd robo/support bay and go colossi late gate.
It would be like 6 gate + upgrades + robo making obs/prisms on 2 base. something like that.
Typically I go 3 obs. 1 to actively scout. 1 for a drop path. 1 to see the front of his base/keep tabs on his main army. But i won't get the 2nd/3rd until I have my 2nd base going and enough units where I can go "Hey, I am not afraid of dying, but I need to know what going on to not die a few minutes from now."
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I'll try a mass observer thingy too
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On Pylons and probes as scouting devices: I'll absolutely still employ them. I have no quarrel with using probes on both towers early game and I will make an effort to hold them with units etc throughout the remainder of the game. Pylons, I won't start aggressively dropping around the map until later game, although, I've really never ironed out a timing for when I start that, it's more about a feeling.
I also kind of feel like most players who play against Protoss users expect only one observer. They will scan or check over their army for one and a lot of the people I play never make another attempt to check for them. (This is in diamond--so obviously not the highest realm of play.) While having additional observers around, if your opponent is absent mindedly not checking for additional observers, he could end up revealing additional information and give you enough time to react appropriately to tech switches, drops, pushes etc.
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I love it versus terran. I only get it vs zerg if they are going mutas. Then I get 2 or so to watch for the mutas so I can get a head start on them.
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Mass observer is very sexy. I used to only do it vs Terran, but I've enjoyed using it against Infestor / Ling styles in PvZ as well.
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EPT
