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playing a series of very very very annoying games.
Had one game where Random opponent went eng bay block (that's when I learned he was terran, nice early eng bay block), 1 rax expo to hidden expo on other side of big map (antiga), to reactor starport mass medivac with marine/marauder hellion and just mass drops.
I can't even express how annoying that game was.
Though, the last one I just payed was even worse, protoss went mass phoenix/mass cannon with cannons at my nat, cannons all over every base (like 10-20 cannons on each of his bases).
I tried the standard response of extra queens and spores - he just made a bunch more phoenix, came in and lifted all my queens and workers and ignored the losses he took from the spores. Constantly killed workers, queens and OLs all game.
I tried corrupters, couldn't make enough fast enough, tried hydras, too slow to respond to anything, tried pushing with mass roach/ling - too many cannons...
He never actually attacked anything all game till he was on like 5 bases - then he made a mothership and like 20 carriers. And just sniped hatcheries and recalled them back to base.
Plus the usual just mass marine/tank off 2 base that's just a pain in the balls to deal with regardless. The worst is it's like diamond players (mostly) doing this stuff. It's like every time my MMR gets high enough to start facing diamond players I end up just facing a 20-30 game run of nothing but cheese, nonstandard annoyance and 1-2 base all-ins. Is this all Diamond consists of????
I guess the flipside of this is, do I have to play like this to get into Diamond? If so - what does Zerg do to play like this?? All my opponents are T or P. :/
  
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Diamond gets better once you either get up there, or drop from high diamond.
Just keep practicing. Diamond isn't cheesetown.
Although, since you're Zerg, you'll probably be on your way to frown town...
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Well my suggestion is to watch the replays and ask yourself "what can i do better?"
It can be anything trivial like spotting a hidden expo, or something more important like engaging in a terrible position. Besides, you can't always expect standard play. If you can learn to defend cheese and other non-standard play, it'll just make you a stronger player in the end.
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There's a reason "standard play" is standard and that is because it is generally better than unorthodox play. If you frequently lose to that then you'll lose even more often when your opponent of the same level plays standard.
Basically what I'm saying is you're not diamond level yet.
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Just learn how to beat everything, then you are fine.
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The main issues in the terran game were: he was random so I didn't know what to expect. He sent a SUPER early scout and dropped an eng bay, so unless I'm sending my FIRST OL to my nat to look for that, I'm gonna miss it - or unless I'm sending an uber-early scout myself.
After that, 1rax expo, so he's dropping his hidden expo and I've got like - 4 lings scouting. So, that's 1 for each tower and 1 for his base and 1 running around. Finding the expo was a crap shoot. One I lost.
then he's got like a dozen medivacs dropping marines, maruaders and hellions all over my bases. I just don't have the multitask/apm to deal with multiple drops with very few units, since I'm behind on econ at that point.
I'm finding a trend that I just can't deal with being hatch blocked. It messes me up so HORRIBLY and my macro never recovers.
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On August 28 2011 08:10 Feartheguru wrote:
There's a reason "standard play" is standard and that is because it is generally better than unorthodox play. If you frequently lose to that then you'll lose even more often when your opponent of the same level plays standard.
Basically what I'm saying is you're not diamond level yet.
7 tiers in diamond. pretty good chance he is, but most people in diamond are still getting over some pretty large problems in their game play which cause them to lose a lot more to cheese. personally I love the cheese in masters. free ladder points 9 times outta 10 
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On August 28 2011 07:59 Reithan wrote:
Though, the last one I just payed was even worse, protoss went mass phoenix/mass cannon with cannons at my nat, cannons all over every base (like 10-20 cannons on each of his bases).
I tried the standard response of extra queens and spores - he just made a bunch more phoenix, came in and lifted all my queens and workers and ignored the losses he took from the spores. Constantly killed workers, queens and OLs all game.
That guy sounds awesome. And I play Zerg XD upload the replay please.
I don't know what to say other than upload a replay if you want to know what you did wrong. This doesn't sound like non standard play, it sounds like cheesy openings then very good play. If you're asking is this what diamond is like, then yes. It's people using strategies that are difficult to cope with.
On August 28 2011 08:15 Rotodyne wrote:
Just learn how to beat everything, then you are fine.
unless I'm sending an uber-early scout myself.
After that, 1rax expo, so he's dropping his hidden expo and I've got like - 4 lings scouting. So, that's 1 for each tower and 1 for his base and 1 running around. Finding the expo was a crap shoot. One I lost.
Antigas huge. The latest scout you should send is with your 10th drone, if not your 9th. As in rally it from the egg. A lot of this is just bad luck. Sure you could (and verse forge first protoss SHOULD) patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp every time to prevent this from ever happening. But chances are its not something vs Terran you really need to actively defend against. Most players aren't reliant on abusive openings like walling the bottom of your ramp.
Thank god nobody uses ladder versions of maps :D it's only annoying to deal with this kind of stuff cos I know I can play better maps in cw/koths
Conclusion: I get cheesed way freaking more by platinums with absurd MMRs than Diamonds.
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diamond like any other league is about winning...
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On August 28 2011 08:29 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 08:10 Feartheguru wrote:
There's a reason "standard play" is standard and that is because it is generally better than unorthodox play. If you frequently lose to that then you'll lose even more often when your opponent of the same level plays standard.
Basically what I'm saying is you're not diamond level yet. 7 tiers in diamond. pretty good chance he is, but most people in diamond are still getting over some pretty large problems in their game play which cause them to lose a lot more to cheese. personally I love the cheese in masters. free ladder points 9 times outta 10
But you don't ladder. :/
Also I find it ironic that you post in a non standard games thread LOL
@op you can still get wins in diamond by having more stuff. If he's going mass air why not hydras? Or even better, go kill him with roach ling because all he has is a few Phoenix. O.o.
If you have trouble with stupid stuff how do you hold a good 6 gate push?
For the terran game, did you not check his natural and look for an expo? O.o.
I'll practice with you if you'd like (if I ever play) but I don't think getting to masters because there's no cheese orstupid there is valid. 
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On August 28 2011 08:38 Probe1 wrote:
That guy sounds awesome. And I play Zerg XD upload the replay please.
Thank god nobody uses ladder versions of maps :D it's only annoying to deal with this kind of stuff cos I know I can play better maps in cw/koths
Conclusion: I get cheesed way freaking more by platinums with absurd MMRs than Diamonds.
All my replays are always available here, and what is CW?
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Oh, and disclaimer, was pretty pissed after a few games like this, so there's a little BM... I kinda drug out that ZvT a little. >.>
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On August 28 2011 08:43 Juliette wrote:@op you can still get wins in diamond by having more stuff. If he's going mass air why not hydras? Or even better, go kill him with roach ling because all he has is a few Phoenix. O.o. If you have trouble with stupid stuff how do you hold a good 6 gate push? For the terran game, did you not check his natural and look for an expo? O.o. I'll practice with you if you'd like (if I ever play) but I don't think getting to masters because there's no cheese orstupid there is valid.
I did get hydra eventually, but usually I don't go hydra against air, because usually it's just 2-3 phoenix to get you to make hydras, then they crush you with colosuss...
I also did try hitting with roach/ling, but he lifted half my roaches with his 20 phoenix, and the 6 cannons finished everything else off (numbers here are made up, but that's around about what hapened  ).
I did check the terran's nat, even had an OL off to the side there, he never expanded to his nat.
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Part of the game. Scout better and you will win!
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You need to learn how to scout and react effectively. No point in saying your opponents just aren't playing right.
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It's not so much that they're not playing right, it's that I'm not learning right. When you ask for advice/training/coaching/practice/help, people tell you how to beat common openings, how to scout against people who don't scout block, and how to react to common transitions.
And they chant 'macro' and 'scout' like it's a magic spell.
But when the opponent is doing all they can to block scouting: sniping OLs, denying ling scouts, etc, and they're opening with crazy weird non-standard openings, and transitioning to things you've never even seen before....
Everything you've learned and practice is worth NOTHING.
So, I'm not mad at my opponents. I'm mad at me, and I'm mad at me for blindly listening to people's advice on how to get better. I've spent months just practicing macro macro macro macro and trying to learn scouting timings and things...and it's just worthless. I lose in the first 3 minutes to things I wasn't able to scout before I can even get an opening up, much less any sort of real macro.
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You need to learn timings, aka watch some day9 wednesday frienday and also other pro gamer streams. As zerg you oftentimes can't scout, simply because it will be denied. So you have to make educated guesses quite often. For instance if you scout a factory you don't know if your opponent is going helions or banshee, you just have to figure it out based on what you see. Also, be mindful that if your opponent is over turtling, you can always expand aggressively. Also, in the protoss game you mentioned it seems like he completely outplayed you, even though it was unorthodox. Getting cannon contained into phoenix while taking heavy losses then allowing the 5 base without applying much counter pressure is auto loss. In your terran game you should've just expanded elsewhere and harassed both his main / far away expo like how he was dropping you. If you are struggling against terran 2 base pushes you just need to improve. It is hard to hold but complaining about the difficulty won't make you better. If you want to beat these people you just have to be better, then you won't lose to unorthodox play 20-30 games in a row, but more like every 2-3 out of 20-30.
Edit: Ebay block sucks, there's a reason why high level terrans don't do it. Not only does it mess up the terran's timing it is usually easily avoided. 150 minerals early game is a lot. BTW if your opponent is using phoenixes offensively you can definitely loop around an overseer to check on whether or not he's continuing air production. If he goes for a fast robo bay, regardless of how stupid this sounds, transition into mutaling (it's what Ret does). Or just rush him super quickly with roaches and drop tech, 3 phoenixes kinda sucks.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining because I want someone to 'fix SC2' or I'm giving up, or anything, I'm still laddering right now. I'm mainly just making observations on what I suck at and venting a little.
Besides, if someone points out something good, maybe I'll be able to make some good improvement or re-focus on something.
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Just wait till you get to grandmasters...
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Just played a ZvT on XNC.
Sent my scout at TEN, as suggested, tried to go for 15 hatch.
Terran's already there with the eng bay block. So I pull back, drop pool and gas. He cancels eng bay and drops THREE bunkers at bottom of my ramp to block it. FML.
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koth is obvious king of the hill
cw is clan war (usually the start of my friday night)
Give us the links to the games where you're getting cheesed and I at least will watch them and look for what could have helped.
l(Whats up with all the engineering bay blocks.)
>>15 hatch on XNC. You KNOW he's going to bunker rush.
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On August 28 2011 10:08 avilo wrote:
Just wait till you get to grandmasters...
Says the most boring player to play against ever.
On a serious note, there's always more little things you can do, especially at diamond like control towers, better OL positioning etc. Run your lings around the map actively.
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On August 28 2011 10:12 Probe1 wrote:
cw is clan war (usually the start of my friday night)
Give us the links to the games where you're getting cheesed and I at least will watch them and look for what could have helped.
l(Whats up with all the engineering bay blocks.)
>>15 hatch on XNC. You KNOW he's going to bunker rush.
Already posted the link, but here it is again.
As for clan war, I'm not in a clan, and every time I get try to find a practice partner, they play like 3 games, then never log on again. rofl. No clan, also. Dunno anything about cw, really. And koth's always empty.
I have no idea what's up with all the eng bay blocks, but like EVERY Game tonight is eng bay blocks, pylon blocks, cannon rushes...I'd kill for a standard bunker rush - I know how to deal with that.
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Dude I have no idea which games you were cheesed in. Post the individual replay link -_-
I entered a clan recruitment tournament cos I disliked playing three games with practice partners. And koths are never empty for dia+
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Loss - opponent on Shakuras went 7-pool and dropped a spine on my creep while I was microing my drones to kill his lings.
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On August 28 2011 10:24 Probe1 wrote:Dude I have no idea which games you were cheesed in. Post the individual replay link -_- I entered a clan recruitment tournament cos I disliked playing three games with practice partners. And koths are never empty for dia+
Pretty much all of them. I think Artful dodger didn't JuiceLayerII didn't.
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On August 28 2011 10:24 Probe1 wrote:And koths are never empty for dia+
What do you mean? If I hit 'join' on the koth map - no one's in there. Ever.
If I join the koth or icjug channel - it's empty most of the time.
That's what I mean.
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On August 28 2011 10:14 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 10:08 avilo wrote:
Just wait till you get to grandmasters... Says the most boring player to play against ever. On a serious note, there's always more little things you can do, especially at diamond like control towers, better OL positioning etc. Run your lings around the map actively.
Nice random hate...
My point was that if you think there's "cheese" at just diamond level, wait till you hit grandmasters. It's just about the same if not worse for people doing all-ins on ladder.
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On August 28 2011 10:59 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 10:14 Vlare wrote:On August 28 2011 10:08 avilo wrote:
Just wait till you get to grandmasters... Says the most boring player to play against ever. On a serious note, there's always more little things you can do, especially at diamond like control towers, better OL positioning etc. Run your lings around the map actively. Nice random hate... My point was that if you think there's "cheese" at just diamond level, wait till you hit grandmasters. It's just about the same if not worse for people doing all-ins on ladder.
It's not random hate. I think you're a very good player. Just every time I see you play you do this brutally boring mech style that is simply un-enjoyably 
And yes, GM cheese/higher level cheese is probably much worse than diamond cheese.
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lol what do you mean 'probably'. anyway i'm going to have a look at a few of the replays.
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On August 28 2011 11:21 Probe1 wrote:
lol what do you mean 'probably'. anyway i'm going to have a look at a few of the replays.
Well, I haven't been in diamond since diamond was the highest league. So I am in no position to claim what's going on there. And I don't get cheesed THAT much on ladder, so I say probably because I am not 100% certain. What I am certain of is that the high level cheese is much stronger and more refined for sure.
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Definitely agree ^_^
Especially the refined part. Gold cheese is just happenstance meh. Combatex cheese has a planned transition LOL
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LiquidTyler in the MLG is pulling a mass phoenix vs Zerg right now, as I speak.
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Replay 1: + Show Spoiler +Yes blocking your natural with an eng bay is annoying. I thought you were referring to walling off the bottom of your ramp with a eng/bunker. That's much more annoying to me.
I just ignore it and expand at the gold or closest mineral line if there isn't one. Terran already put themselves behind wasting resources on the bay so you can pretty much take the gold and afford to drone AND make an army to defend it.
You dropped a baneling nest and roach warren at the same time :S I'd only do that if I were completely uncertain of what Terran was doing and was scared of an all in. Considering your expo was delayed- it put you really behind to get both techs at the same time. Send overlords close to his base so you can scout it. A line of OLs would have also helped you spot the drop and prevent it from doing damage. Remember- lings underneath medivacs Queen right clicked on medivacs. Killing the marines faster is okay but killing the medivac is the best.
Anyway, you had no spire and no way to catch up, gg.
Fun fact: I get my baneling nest when my lair is 1/8th complete.
Replay 2:+ Show Spoiler + I see a probe. I put a drone on a probe. Every time. Always. No exceptions. If I don't I deserve to lose. That's the end of the story. If you scout forge first, patrol another drone at the bottom of your ramp. If you're forced to expand at 7 minutes you need to double expand or all in. Then expand again at 12 minutes. Hydras and spore crawlers were the correct choice. Corruptors suck shit against micro'd phoenixes, even if its a gold player. Also scout way way way more often. Send a ling to die to try and see his composition all the time. Sac overlords. Changelings, whatever you can do to know whats going on. Or else, surprise 12 phoenixes. Roach Hydra is also pretty good at breaking a cannon wall. Too bad they're not good against anything else. Here's a replay with a few general ideas on how to respond to being caught unaware by forge fe when you've opened pool first. http://bit.ly/rt2JEi
Replay 3: + Show Spoiler +See a worker attack a worker. No exceptions for scvs or drones. The minute someone builds some shit in your house then pull 4 drones to kill it (pylon/cannon) or 2 to kill the scv and 1 to patrol close by to see if reinforcements are coming
Replay 4: + Show Spoiler +... It was the worst 10 pool I've ever seen, it was only one spine crawler and you could see the drone just sitting there. You should always attack a drone near your creep anyway. For exactly that reason. You could have held it off if you hadn't laid down in the snow and died though. Next time: 1. Don't make two spines. Make zerglings. 2. Don't let your morphing spines die. You lost 150 minerals (the drone cost added in) twice which means his early aggression gambit already broke even if you held it off perfectly. 3. You got the surround on the lings which was good but then you just sat there. Not good. Every second counts. Did you notice my apm in the replay? It's like 80 but I don't have the same problems you do. I focus on what I need to do (as much as I can for a casual player ). I let myself be angry or frustrated after I lose. Which usually involves lighting a cigarette, slamming my fist into my desk or angrily watching the replay. I'm not perfect but I try my best during the game.
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Tyler was one of the Protoss that popularized it. It fell out of popularity around the time MorroW was showing exactly how dumb it is. Just mass drone/ling/spore and right click your overlords on top of your hatcheries.
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On August 28 2011 11:52 Reithan wrote:
LiquidTyler in the MLG is pulling a mass phoenix vs Zerg right now, as I speak.
yeah, and we all see how that turned out. lolsup
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haypro is sc2 bonjwa
+ Show Spoiler +
No seriously, if Tyler can't make it work then some random gold player shouldn't either. Learn from Haypro.
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That was actually very informative.
Speaking of which, I know a couple of you offered to practice a bit - I'm in game still now, if you're up for any of that
Xanthus.730
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Next time try a bit of analysis of a replay, post it in strategy with a [H] header and you'll get people better than me doing the same thing ^_^
gl hf
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I was actually talking about the Liquid Tyler game, but your analysis was good, too. LOL, Sorry about that.
The replay was really good, but I didn't think it was the FFE itself that threw me off. There were a few things you pointed out in your analysis that I hadn't FULLY thought about, so that was real helpful, too.
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On August 28 2011 08:59 Reithan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 08:43 Juliette wrote:@op you can still get wins in diamond by having more stuff. If he's going mass air why not hydras? Or even better, go kill him with roach ling because all he has is a few Phoenix. O.o. If you have trouble with stupid stuff how do you hold a good 6 gate push? For the terran game, did you not check his natural and look for an expo? O.o. I'll practice with you if you'd like (if I ever play) but I don't think getting to masters because there's no cheese orstupid there is valid. I did get hydra eventually, but usually I don't go hydra against air, because usually it's just 2-3 phoenix to get you to make hydras, then they crush you with colosuss... I also did try hitting with roach/ling, but he lifted half my roaches with his 20 phoenix, and the 6 cannons finished everything else off (numbers here are made up, but that's around about what hapened ). I did check the terran's nat, even had an OL off to the side there, he never expanded to his nat.
more than 3 phoenix, or no nat should be warning signs!
added ^^ we can play some games sometime
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Sounds like BW all over again. In BW people do the most gay faggotry to Zerg. Poor Zergs just cant catch a break.
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EPT
