• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:59
CEST 04:59
KST 11:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research8Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool51Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win4
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group E [ASL21] Ro24 Group F Azhi's Colosseum - Foreign KCM
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Chess Thread NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
China Uses Video Games to Sh…
TrAiDoS
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Electronics
mantequilla
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9617 users

Advice on car purchase

Blogs > TadH
Post a Reply
Normal
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 19:57:15
April 23 2011 21:25 GMT
#1
So due to the large number of "you got ripped off" posts, I did some research and indeed it was a bad choice.

So I backed out of the deal which cost me 200 bucks and I decided to buy something else.

+ Show Spoiler +
FULLY LOADED AWD 7 Passenger SUV with ALL options!!!

Heres just a few: Leather, Sunroof, TV/DVD player, Factory REMOTE start, HEATED Seats, PARKING Sensors and Assist, Active AWD system, FULL information Center for fluid levels, fuel tracking, system analysis, Keyless Entry, Touch pad Entry, Power seats, STOW AND GO rear seats fold down and out of the way, EVERY option you could even THINK OF!!!
so many more toooo much to list!

ALL highway miles driven back and forth from calgary to edmonton weekly!!!!

Car Specs

I talked this guy down about a grand with no tax.

$5750

And this is what I'm buying.

[image loading]







+ Show Spoiler +
Just want some feedback on a purchase.

I just bought a 2001 Pontiac Aztek for 3,600

Carfax report had nothing bad in it, regular maintenance etc etc

The SUV has 280,000 km's

The body is in excellent shape, the gas meter is broken and the windshield has a crack in it.

[image loading]
[image loading]

[image loading]


Old post


tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19200 Posts
April 23 2011 21:28 GMT
#2
Soooo.....what?

You want advice, but you already bought the car?

I say you should post earlier next time :|
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
April 23 2011 21:28 GMT
#3
Also the bluebook price lists it at $3825
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
April 23 2011 21:29 GMT
#4
I mean, do you guys think it was a good deal?
Mickey
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2606 Posts
April 23 2011 21:32 GMT
#5
On April 24 2011 06:29 TadH wrote:
I mean, do you guys think it was a good deal?

Are you serious?....
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
April 23 2011 21:34 GMT
#6
I'm surprised the condition of the car looks good for 280k km on it haha
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
April 23 2011 21:34 GMT
#7
On April 24 2011 06:32 Mickey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2011 06:29 TadH wrote:
I mean, do you guys think it was a good deal?

Are you serious?....


Yes, I'm just wondering, I don't have a lot of experience buying cars.
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
April 23 2011 21:39 GMT
#8
Well, it is an Aztek. Considered one of Pontiac's failures. Supposively their worst selling vehicle or whatever....I always liked them though, lol.

Good job?
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
nitdkim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1264 Posts
April 23 2011 21:39 GMT
#9
On April 24 2011 06:34 TadH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2011 06:32 Mickey wrote:
On April 24 2011 06:29 TadH wrote:
I mean, do you guys think it was a good deal?

Are you serious?....


Yes, I'm just wondering, I don't have a lot of experience buying cars.

too late...
PM me if you want random korean images translated.
Headlines
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States482 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-23 21:50:33
April 23 2011 21:47 GMT
#10
3,600 what? Dollars? Way too expensive for your SUV, especially in that condition. 280,000 km is like... 220,000 miles? Not sure what the exact ratio is, but that's quite a lot of traveling your car has done. And I'm guessing you're going to drive by how many km you've driven before you need to put in gas since your gas meter is broken, right? And I don't know about Canada, but gas prices are getting pretty steep down here in the U.S. I feel a lot of pity for all the trucks, suvs, and vans that I share the road with my 28 mpg Ford.

In my opinion, if I had $3,600 to spend, I'd put a very good down-payment on a better car that's around the $10,000 range, and start paying it off monthly. It may be more expensive, but the car would be in a much better condition in... say 10 or more years.

And exactly how long did you search for a car?



sc2isfun
Profile Joined April 2011
Algeria3 Posts
April 23 2011 21:48 GMT
#11
you got RIPPED OFF hardcore..3.6k for THAT? id take a bat to the guy who fucked you over.
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
April 23 2011 21:52 GMT
#12
On April 24 2011 06:47 Headlines wrote:
3,600 what? Dollars? Way too expensive for your SUV, especially in that condition. 280,000 km is like... 220,000 miles?


It's like 174k, little less.
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
SeRenExZerg
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States401 Posts
April 23 2011 21:59 GMT
#13
do I think it was worth it? hell no. for 3600 there are so many other sicker cars you could get, but thats just my opinion.

also, asking after youve bought the car only sets you up for disapointment. i really have no clue what youre trying to accomplish now, sounds to me like you have quite a bit of buyers remorse- and for that i am sorry.
One thing about deer: They have good vision. One thing about me: I am better at hiding than they are at vision.
Gatsbi
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1134 Posts
April 23 2011 22:01 GMT
#14
why didnt you just get like a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord/Civic. Those cars are beasts, even older ones. They will never stop working
"IF WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW IS MORE THAN WHAT YOU HAVE KNOWN. THEN YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ANYTHINIG YET." - Rev Kojo Smith
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
April 23 2011 22:03 GMT
#15
What if he wanted / needed an SUV? At the very least don't bash him for what TYPE of car he bought.
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-23 22:10:13
April 23 2011 22:10 GMT
#16
Could have gotten a nicer, younger or more reliable SUV if he really needed one.
At leas the color's unique I guess.

Sorry man :x
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SeRenExZerg
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States401 Posts
April 23 2011 22:10 GMT
#17
On April 24 2011 07:03 Torenhire wrote:
What if he wanted / needed an SUV? At the very least don't bash him for what TYPE of car he bought.


i dont mean to bash him at all. but even for 3600, i dont think the aztec is a good buy- which is essentially what his question was. In my opinion, there are quite a few different makes/models i would choose with the constraints he has.

this is part of the problem with asking for criticism AFTER buying the car, anything that is not positive will only disappoint.
One thing about deer: They have good vision. One thing about me: I am better at hiding than they are at vision.
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-23 22:20:04
April 23 2011 22:18 GMT
#18
Well the thing is, I'm in a bind and needed a car asap. Some unfortunate circumstances happened with my 2009 focus, so I don't have a choice in being picky. It's more of a necessity right now.

I don't think I was "ripped off" The bluebook listing for that model with the same km's is like 200 dollars more.

But thanks for the input, maybe next time I'll be a little more diligent.

And I really did need something larger, got a kid and all, so I thought maybe it was on the high end, but reasonable.

edit: also, I wanted to put a down payment on a new car, but my credit is shot, so the interest on financing would have been like 20-30% which is retarded, so that wasn't an option.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
April 23 2011 22:21 GMT
#19
Why didn't you rent until you found something?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
April 23 2011 22:26 GMT
#20
On April 24 2011 07:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Why didn't you rent until you found something?


Rentals here in alberta are rather expensive with the insurance and everything. And I feel like if I'm paying money for something I should own it in the end, otherwise it seems like a waste? I don't know if that makes sense. All in all I'm happy with my decision, and I can actually get to work now, so it's all good.


sc2isfun
Profile Joined April 2011
Algeria3 Posts
April 23 2011 22:29 GMT
#21
i thought blue book only showed new price. Anyway, 3.6k is way too much for 200k+ km. you really should have waited and found something better. hate to say it but that azteks engine is probly on the way out. wouldnt be surprised to see a post about engine trouble from you soon xD
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
April 23 2011 22:34 GMT
#22
On April 24 2011 07:10 SpooN) wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2011 07:03 Torenhire wrote:
What if he wanted / needed an SUV? At the very least don't bash him for what TYPE of car he bought.


i dont mean to bash him at all. but even for 3600, i dont think the aztec is a good buy- which is essentially what his question was. In my opinion, there are quite a few different makes/models i would choose with the constraints he has.

this is part of the problem with asking for criticism AFTER buying the car, anything that is not positive will only disappoint.


didn't mean you, meant the people telling him to get smaller cars for this or that reason
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
powerbygood
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States54 Posts
April 23 2011 22:47 GMT
#23
Damn, kinda expensive dont you think? Honestly, I think you could of low-balled him some more. With your budget you can pretty much get any reliable car quick if you tell them you pay upfront cash.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
April 23 2011 23:28 GMT
#24
so, you like the looks of the aztek?
starleague forever
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
April 23 2011 23:41 GMT
#25
On April 24 2011 07:26 TadH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2011 07:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Why didn't you rent until you found something?


Rentals here in alberta are rather expensive with the insurance and everything. And I feel like if I'm paying money for something I should own it in the end, otherwise it seems like a waste? I don't know if that makes sense. All in all I'm happy with my decision, and I can actually get to work now, so it's all good.



A car doesn't hold value anyways. In your situation leasing a car for 2-3 years would be a far better option in my opinion. "Having something" to show for your investment is nice and all, but cars are not that something you want to show off. Whenever you're driving it around showing it off it's becoming less valuable.

You almost certainly got ripped off. I'm not familiar with blue book values, but any car with over 100k miles on it isn't worth more than the scrap metal it's made of in my opinion. You're playing with fire on when it is going to die or need a large investment into repairs.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Crush404
Profile Joined November 2010
United States27 Posts
April 24 2011 00:13 GMT
#26
Does it run well? Do you like the looks? Happy with the size/space it provides?

Honestly, people so often judge vehicles on how many miles the vehicle has, but more often than not miles have little to do with it. (take it to get it checked out by a mechanic, or at the very least a friend that knows his shit. Theres a few exceptions, aka in theory if 50% of 1998 dodge trucks transmissions went bad between 100-110k miles, then you probably don't want to buy a truck that has 95k on it.

I'd say you can't go that wrong on 3,600. Hell, we just sold a 1994 ford F-150 with 202k miles on it for 2,000 after only having it for sale for a week.
Thrill
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
2599 Posts
April 24 2011 00:56 GMT
#27
Wtf is that? Never seen that model, what a weird looking car lol.

Sorry to hear about your credit, hope things get better.
SeRenExZerg
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States401 Posts
April 24 2011 01:23 GMT
#28


You almost certainly got ripped off. I'm not familiar with blue book values, but any car with over 100k miles on it isn't worth more than the scrap metal it's made of in my opinion. You're playing with fire on when it is going to die or need a large investment into repairs.[/QUOTE]


this is an unfair generalization. there are a TON of makes and motors that will easily easily pull 300-400k miles within their lifetime (albeit pontiac/GM aren't notorious for these). most of the D and B series honda motors arent really even broken in until 100k miles, i would be genuinely surprised to see someone concerned about the life of the car on a honda when buying it even with high 100k-low 200k miles.

yes, for this car and a GM v6, i would be quite afraid to buy it with 200k miles. but saying "any car with 100k is worth scrap metal value" is not really true. to the contrary, there are probably more older, reliable cars with 100k miles that you can expect fewer issues from than some of the brand new stuff that is on the market today.

One thing about deer: They have good vision. One thing about me: I am better at hiding than they are at vision.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32130 Posts
April 24 2011 04:26 GMT
#29
you got ripped off big time. Never ever buy an american suv with that many miles, much less a pontiac

no one buys those things. if time wasnt an issue, you could have come back in a few months and that dude would have probably still have been selling it
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Joementum
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
787 Posts
April 24 2011 06:11 GMT
#30
you're first mistake was buying an SUV. You're 2nd was buying an SUV w/ that many kms on it. You definitely could've found something better for less.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Mickey
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2606 Posts
April 24 2011 14:42 GMT
#31
Don't take the crap from people saying you got ripped off without at least providing facts/proper argument as to why you got ripped off.

You said it yourself you got it below Blue Book value, so it seems decent.
Golden Ghost
Profile Joined February 2003
Netherlands1041 Posts
April 24 2011 19:59 GMT
#32
I actually agree with you about liking the car. It looks really nice. As I have no idea about general car prices in your area I won't comment on that besides that if the blue book price was 200 dollars more as what you paid you should have gotten a bigger discount because you have to fix your windscreen and gas meter asap (assuming those things aren't already included in the blue book price).
The mileage should normally not be a problem.
Life is to give and take. You take a vacation and you give to the poor.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 13:39:10
April 25 2011 13:37 GMT
#33
On April 24 2011 23:42 Mickey wrote:
Don't take the crap from people saying you got ripped off without at least providing facts/proper argument as to why you got ripped off.

You said it yourself you got it below Blue Book value, so it seems decent.


He very clearly didn't put in mileage in the blue book.

http://www.edmunds.com/pontiac/aztek/2001/tmv-appraise-results.html

and even if he didn't, paying that much for a 10 year old car that was among the all time worst made by a manufacturer so shitty that it's out of business now is not a good choice. Any car at 175k miles/280km is going to have problems. A pontiac at that mileage is a miracle it still runs

live and learn and stuff, but please dont think this was a good deal by any means. For that kind of money, you could have found a much better car or suv
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
April 25 2011 19:53 GMT
#34
UPDATE read OP

Thanks for all the feedback and saving me a shit ton of money.

Read OP for update plz
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
April 25 2011 20:00 GMT
#35
How did you back out when you said you already got it?
Either way, nice move. I don't know much about cars, but glad you're asking for advice before purchasing!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 20:06:03
April 25 2011 20:04 GMT
#36
On April 26 2011 05:00 Torte de Lini wrote:
How did you back out when you said you already got it?
Either way, nice move. I don't know much about cars, but glad you're asking for advice before purchasing!



Some smooth talking!

No but I was fucking lucky, trust me.

And I think I was a little "desperate" having just lost my car and was kind of in a rushed state of mind.

But yeah, I'm happy with the comments and the advice you guys gave me

edit: Every time I read your post count it goes up by like 500. haha
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32130 Posts
April 25 2011 21:08 GMT
#37
good move getting outta that aztek deal. What did you pay for this and what is the mileage??

lesson learned: dont buy under duress!!! much better to suck it up and just bus everywhere for a week or whatever.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 21:10:48
April 25 2011 21:10 GMT
#38
On April 26 2011 06:08 Hawk wrote:
good move getting outta that aztek deal. What did you pay for this and what is the mileage??

lesson learned: dont buy under duress!!! much better to suck it up and just bus everywhere for a week or whatever.



it has 204k km's, paid 5750
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft347
RuFF_SC2 189
WinterStarcraft168
ProTech121
ROOTCatZ 60
Ketroc 55
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5569
ggaemo 110
Nal_rA 90
NaDa 22
Bale 21
Noble 20
Shinee 15
Dota 2
monkeys_forever602
NeuroSwarm100
League of Legends
JimRising 660
Counter-Strike
tarik_tv4913
m0e_tv379
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor126
Other Games
summit1g17493
Artosis446
ViBE98
C9.Mang043
Nina43
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1064
BasetradeTV153
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH197
• Hupsaiya 128
• davetesta16
• Light_VIP 10
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki23
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo655
Other Games
• Scarra993
• Shiphtur134
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
7h 1m
Wardi Open
7h 1m
Replay Cast
21h 1m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 7h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
BSL
5 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.