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With so many threads and posts about NASL (most of them arguing whether or not to let Koreans in or not), I thought I'd make a blog entry about it.
To start off, I knew about the NASL before it was announced, and I hoped it would be exclusive to NA players only, which is of course selfish to a great extent. I thought with the name being North American and all, it would be something like WCG nationals, where only players from certain nationalities would be able to compete.
Now, I think it would be an excellent opportunity (if I do get picked as one of top 50) to play against MVP or Nestea. In the previous FXO tournaments, I had to go against oGsJ and oGsSuperNova. I lost both series (no surprise) but I felt like the skill difference was paper thin. I made some crucial mistakes in the games and was not able to capitalize on my advantages. I went 1-2 vs oGsJ (he baneling bust me ftw one of the games) and went 0-2 vs SuperNova but both of the games being 25+ minutes (I was ahead most of the times, but I lost focus and threw them away in the end). Of course I was pretty bummed out that I got knocked out, but they were pretty cool experiences for me regardless.
Great thanks to the organizers and I respect them a lot for all their hard work in the community. I know how much Xeris and Incontrol puts so much of their time and effort to grow e-sports. They've done a fantastic job so far and I'm sure they will continue to do so. I'm just really disappointed that no matter who is chosen to play in the NASL, people are going to complain.
I feel like a series of offline tournaments (something like MLG) would solve a lot of the issues.. In the end, top 16 players are going to compete in the offline grand finals. Perhaps an online qualifiers for 6 spots, and series of offline tournaments in California for 10 spots could be a possibility. This would enable non-NA players to compete, and at the same time give some home ground advantage to NA-based players. Also, dedicated EU/KOR players could come fly to compete in the offline tournaments too.
/rant
 
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true, realistically with less emphasis being put on north american players only it is much more likely that only a handful of north americans will be selected, all of which are highly skilled but also importantly popular and well known.
I like the idea of offline qualification as well, but obviously creating a series of major LAN's is no small task in itself.
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That's pretty interesting. I was wondering if I could ask you to go more in detail about how foreigners compare to the koreans. We've seen Jinro and Idra make it far in the GSL(and Huk just made code S), so I'm wondering whether there really is a huge difference in the skill level. But on the contrast, Ace plowed his way through IEM and so did Moon. And OGs Hero and theSTC made 1st and 2nd in the FXOpen. I didn't get to see many of the games though, so I was wondering where exactly we lie.
Obviously the top koreans(MC,Nes Tea, MVP) are WAY ahead everyone else, but they're also ahead of most of the koreans as well. In your experience playing Koreans, (or if any pros can comment), how exactly "behind" are we? If we invite pros from korea, do we stand a chance?
I definitely feel like this tournament should be mostly NA/EU, just because its geared towards growing western E-sports. We definitely need credibility though, so having koreans come and compete would not only be fair to them, but help the league as well. After all, how can the tournament claim "The best players will compete...." and exclude 50% of the good players.
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Considering few foreigners play regularly against Koreans except those in Korea thats a question better posed at those who have trained/lived there. That being said, if you read jinro's post in
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201568
you see pretty clearly that the worst of code A players still took out all top foreigners, although the skill gap isn't as big as could be extrapolated from that one instance.
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On March 16 2011 07:40 Pandain wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I was wondering if I could ask you to go more in detail about how foreigners compare to the koreans. We've seen Jinro and Idra make it far in the GSL(and Huk just made code S), so I'm wondering whether there really is a huge difference in the skill level.
Obviously the top koreans(MC,Nes Tea, MVP) are WAY ahead everyone else, but they're also ahead of most of the koreans as well. In your experience playing Koreans, (or if any pros can comment), how exactly "behind" are we? If we invite pros from korea, do we stand a chance?
I definitely feel like this tournament should be mostly NA/EU, just because its geared towards growing western E-sports. We definitely need credibility though, so having koreans come and compete would not only be fair to them, but help the league as well. After all, how can the tournament claim "The best players will compete...." and exclude 50% of the good players.
The only players I played were oGsJ and oGsSuperNova. I understand these players are not top notch Korean players, and I'm certainly not a top notch NA player either. It's difficult to tell by playing them only few games, but I did not feel like I was being totally dominated or feeling ridiculously helpless like in BW. (I hit A on iccup, but every game against progamers would be me getting toyed around like a D- player).
I'm sure Jinro or Huk could comment (and it would be more accurate) on the matter of "how behind" NA players are. Imo, we are pretty behind (as in... perhaps we'll win 2~4 games out of 10), but not totally behind as in we'd be lucky to take 1 game off of a Korean progamer).
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On March 16 2011 07:46 stalife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:40 Pandain wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I was wondering if I could ask you to go more in detail about how foreigners compare to the koreans. We've seen Jinro and Idra make it far in the GSL(and Huk just made code S), so I'm wondering whether there really is a huge difference in the skill level.
Obviously the top koreans(MC,Nes Tea, MVP) are WAY ahead everyone else, but they're also ahead of most of the koreans as well. In your experience playing Koreans, (or if any pros can comment), how exactly "behind" are we? If we invite pros from korea, do we stand a chance?
I definitely feel like this tournament should be mostly NA/EU, just because its geared towards growing western E-sports. We definitely need credibility though, so having koreans come and compete would not only be fair to them, but help the league as well. After all, how can the tournament claim "The best players will compete...." and exclude 50% of the good players. The only players I played were oGsJ and oGsSuperNova. I understand these players are not top notch Korean players, and I'm certainly not a top notch NA player either. It's difficult to tell by playing them only few games, but I did not feel like I was being totally dominated or feeling ridiculously helpless like in BW. (I hit A on iccup, but every game against progamers would be me getting toyed around like a D- player). I'm sure Jinro or Huk could comment (and it would be more accurate) on the matter of "how behind" NA players are. Imo, we are pretty behind (as in... perhaps we'll win 2~4 games out of 10), but not totally behind as in we'd be lucky to take 1 game off of a Korean progamer).
I think that may have more to do with differences between SC2 and BW though. I feel its harder to make mistakes in SC2 with both the improved AI and easier macro mechanics so naturally all games will be closer.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Seems like you want the tournament run one way simply for your own benefit. I mean yea I'd like if the TSL was actually called the ChillSL and only I could qualify, but come on.
You wrote your suggestion in the final paragraph as "solving the issues". What exactly are these issues? From a fan perspective and organizer perspective, allowing Europeans and Koreans in is a no-brainer.
I just can't get your suggestion. It's like we could have the qualifiers online where everyone can easily participate, or we can make them fly to California for no reason except to separate those who are willing to spend a lot of money and those who aren't. Why not just have an entry tax based on location lol?
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On March 16 2011 07:40 Pandain wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I was wondering if I could ask you to go more in detail about how foreigners compare to the koreans. We've seen Jinro and Idra make it far in the GSL(and Huk just made code S), so I'm wondering whether there really is a huge difference in the skill level. But on the contrast, Ace plowed his way through IEM and so did Moon. And OGs Hero and theSTC made 1st and 2nd in the FXOpen. I didn't get to see many of the games though, so I was wondering where exactly we lie.
Obviously the top koreans(MC,Nes Tea, MVP) are WAY ahead everyone else, but they're also ahead of most of the koreans as well. In your experience playing Koreans, (or if any pros can comment), how exactly "behind" are we? If we invite pros from korea, do we stand a chance?
I definitely feel like this tournament should be mostly NA/EU, just because its geared towards growing western E-sports. We definitely need credibility though, so having koreans come and compete would not only be fair to them, but help the league as well. After all, how can the tournament claim "The best players will compete...." and exclude 50% of the good players.
there is no inherent talent gap between foreign and korean players. never has been. its not genetic or something, its just they have prohouses and live and play starcraft all day. Jinro and Idra were successful in the gsl because they lived like koreans do.
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On March 16 2011 08:47 Chill wrote:
Seems like you want the tournament run one way simply for your own benefit. I mean yea I'd like if the TSL was actually called the ChillSL and only I could qualify, but come on.
You wrote your suggestion in the final paragraph as "solving the issues". What exactly are these issues? From a fan perspective and organizer perspective, allowing Europeans and Koreans in is a no-brainer.
I just can't get your suggestion. It's like we could have the qualifiers online where everyone can easily participate, or we can make them fly to California for no reason except to separate those who are willing to spend a lot of money and those who aren't. Why not just have an entry tax based on location lol?
I think what he's saying makes perfect sense, but I agree with you in the sense that its unnecessary are the selection for this league is afaik made almost arbitrarily. Also he isn't saying to disallow them from participating just make it more limited.
I don't know all the intricacies and details of the NASL but from what I understand (as the organizers are american) is that the focus is on north america (i might be wrong here). I don't really know the reason why its called the NASL and not the world starleague but my guesses would start with things like the sponsor is targeting a north american audience or the organizers are trying to promote the growth of esports in north america. Neither of these would benefit from having 20% North Americans in the tournament. That being said, with the selection process at hand its pretty easy to have a good amount of north americans in it rather than having a open tournament where the majority of top 50 would likely be asian or european.
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On March 16 2011 08:47 Chill wrote:
Seems like you want the tournament run one way simply for your own benefit. I mean yea I'd like if the TSL was actually called the ChillSL and only I could qualify, but come on.
You wrote your suggestion in the final paragraph as "solving the issues". What exactly are these issues? From a fan perspective and organizer perspective, allowing Europeans and Koreans in is a no-brainer.
I just can't get your suggestion. It's like we could have the qualifiers online where everyone can easily participate, or we can make them fly to California for no reason except to separate those who are willing to spend a lot of money and those who aren't. Why not just have an entry tax based on location lol?
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Stalife, you seem to be frustrated with your current situation. This would be that you, a person who is considered an above average starcraft 2 player, will more than likely be knocked out of the NASL very early if they actually bring in the best players. Contrary to what you may believe, the skill gap IS THAT BIG. It is not paper thin as you have described. Case in point, 3 code A players taking the top 3 spots at IEM. Keep in mind these 3 code A players did not even make it out of the round of 32 this season in the GSL and they beat some of the "best in the world outside Korea." I am going to watch the NASL because I believe they will bring in the best and provide an extremely entertaining tournament for us. Good luck getting in.
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I agree with Chill here. Also, seeing as North America is very large, I don't think that having offline qualifiers in California would necessarily help keep things advantageous for all of NA. It would really only just help those out who are able to go to California cheaply. If somebody were to come from say, Quebec, and lose the qualifier, that's a lot of lost money. I like the idea of having everything online until the ro16 because it ensures that nobody is losing a lot of money by partaking in the offline tournament. I do think that there should be a greater weight placed on NA players during the selection process, but it shouldn't be a factor for the qualifications.
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It will be interesting to see what NASL's business model and invite criteria end up being. Clearly there is some sort of demand for an Americans only starleague, the question is if such a league is sustainable.
Personally I'll pay for something like MLG now and then because it is interesting to see the state of foreigner SC and all the personalities from this scene get together. There is no way, however, I'd subscribe to a league and watch it nightly if it excluded Koreans, especially with the GSL running non-stop. At least not until the white dudes stop getting owned by the guys eliminated in the first half of Code A.
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I do think the skill level in korea is higher, but I think there's evidence that this has to do with traning, let's look at our 3 MLG winners:
1) Liquid`HuK
2) EGIdrA
3) Liquid`Jinro
All 3 of them have competed or will compete in code S.
However, it wasn't until they had training in Korea that they made it to that level. Jinro failed to qualify (quite a bit of luck involved) for seasons 1 and 2 of GSL, IdrA had already been in korea for 2 years, and HuK failed to qualify for GSL season 3 before obviously getting much better while training in Korea. I think there's some evidence that Korean training is better than in the US, but this is somewhat circular:
1) Korea has the highest level tournaments because they have the best players.
2) Korean players train hard because they have the highest level tournament.
3) Korean players are the best because they train with other Koreans.
4) Korean players become the best because they have the best tournaments to train for.
I'm not denying there are some cultural differences, but I do think having more tournaments and better tournaments in NA will definitely close that gap and all it will take is 1 or 2 ridiculously strong results in the US by NA players over the best Korean players to really spark starcraft 2 in the west the same way Bobby Fischer did for chess in NA in the 70s.
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I agree that Koreans shouldn't be in this. Maybe in later seasons if it's expanded to 75 or 100 players, or if there was a more robust qualification process that allowed for a hard cap on Korean players, but for now I would much rather see a great foreigner tournament to counterbalance the GSL. Maybe even have a GSL vs NASL championship match to end the season.
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EPT
