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Quite preface before this begins. This isn't some whine post about balance or anything about the state of the game. This is about myself personally and my possible limitations.
I've been thinking for a couple of months now if there are certain people that are just inherently bad at Starcraft 2.
You see players in custom games or the 1v1 Obs games with 200 ladder games and 45 customs (as an example) and sitting in Diamond. .
Between laddering and customs, I've played nearly 1500 games and I'm still in the exact same spot on my Gold ladder as I have been for nearly three months now. I try and map strategies for matchups and certain maps, I read ridiculous amounts of information, I watch tons and tons of games and replays trying to analyze.
I step into a game with a AI opponent, my play is pretty smooth. I hit my opening timings just as I need to and get myself off on a good foot for the game. When I hit the ladder, or even play a friend, that opening falters, the build collapses, tunnel vision sets in and I miss Overlords left and right.
All the upgrades built into my plan suddenly never get made and I just keep making Roaches to stay alive when 45 Void Rays blast me into oblivion. It seems like with all the time and work I've put into this, I should be better than I am.
Perhaps I can blame the Xanax medication I have to take due to my constant anxiety problems, which slows down brain function. That seems like a gigantic cop out to me. Maybe I'm too old and had no experience in BW to help my education, being nearly 30 now.
I don't know what it is, but it seems like I should be much better than this and I don't know how to fix it. I run the multitasking trainer every day, I run the micro trainer as well, use the YABOTs to try and prepare. None of it seems to matter much when a real game starts. People always say to practice more. I've practiced plenty and it has gotten me no where but horizontally.
So, Liquidians, do you think that some people are just physiologically not wired to be good at this game? Looking forward to some good feedback.
Thanks for your time.
 
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Yes some people are just inherently bad at video games. No matter how hard these people train, they'll never be decent at the game. However, I don't think you're focusing on the right things. Sure micro and build orders are important, but the most important things are things like not getting supply blocked, spending your money, and most importantly decision making in the game. These 3 things alone can get you in to diamond. I'm in diamond and never memorized a build order past 18 supply.
Edit: Also, you shouldn't always stick to a plan, scout and react. You should never lose to like 45 void rays and have roaches out.
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Anyone can be good at the game. You just need to have the desire to get better and actually practice correctly. (Not saying theres a wrong way to play the game, but if you're just 6 pooling the whole time, you're not working on your mechanics, which is really important.)
Having said that, 1500 games is a lot, and most people say that practice is the only way to get better... I really have no explanation why you shouldn't be in a higher league...
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Practice advice..
+ Show Spoiler +You've probably heard it a thousand times, but mechanics and macro really is everything up to a certain point where finer strategics start to matter.
I feel like micro/macro/mechanics from broodwar has basically carried me to the top of my master division. The builds or strategic aspects, well, I just think of something that might work or look up builds on liquipedia and execute. I don't think a lot about the game, just the obvious stuff like map characteristics, feigning attacks/hiding shit/typical mind games as in whatever you can come up with in game.
The big thing is always macro. Focus on one thing at the time. One game make sure you are never supply blocked, the next see to it that your min/gas never goes above 300/300 for the entire game. Learn to multi-task a scout while macroing your main. Raise your apm (and don't let anyone tell you that actions per minute in the fastest RTS ever is insignificant).
When you start to get the hang of these things, try playing a bunch of games vs a computer while keeping all that stuff in mind and microing a scout for the entire duration of the game. I don't know if they exist for sc2 but for broodwar there was a macro training exercise where you had to macro up an army, constantly micro a probe away from a zealot and never float minerals, then you had to carry out an attack as well and additionally you had to get drop and rescue a unit from a platform. ^^ That helped me a lot and you could easily train that in a custom vs computer.
Oops only skimmed through your post before writing this, it seems you've been utilizing some form of macro/micro exercise maps already. To be honest, the only thing you could possibly do against tunnel-vision/nerves is playing.. Maybe play some team games to take off the pressure...
I guess you weren't really looking for advice on practice or the game itself. Yes it probably varies a lot how difficult getting good at any given activity is for different people depending on background and such. We're not identical copies, we're individuals. In your case it sounds like nerves being the biggest hindrance.
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Post some replays. Maybe we can find a general trend of why you're losing.
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Yes, this question has an obvious answer. In every field of life there are people who are naturally better than others; ranging from sports, academics, fine arts to computer games. I, myself don't read about people's strategies nor do I watch pro games but I went into masters for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 all in one game after they got released. Prior to this I got placed into the highest league that I could be placed, (at times platinum and diamond) and moved up to the highest league in the length of approximately up to 30 games. I understand that there are a lot of bad players, because I beat them to get into masters but don't feel discouraged. Someone has to be on top, and that can't be everyone since ranks are relative. You can accept your league and be content, rather than fight against nature. The most important thing for great players is a great mind, and the passion to achieve. If you have the passion for this game though you should keep trying. Though if you want to face the facts there are naturally gifted people out there that you may never beat.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199432
This thread was largely but not entirely about the oppersite. In which I was trying to argue that there is such a thing as talent and saying that if you practiced as much as Flash and Jaedong you would be just as good as them is just not true. So YES I think there are people that are just better and people that are just worse. However with people that are bad its normally things you can work on like mechanics and timings so a bit of practice will definately help a lot at a lower level. However at the top there will always be people that no matter how you practice they are just better than you.
It also sounds like you get very nervous and you need to try not to some how (about the least useful words ever) . Its just a game, your just playing for fun right? Try to enjoy your self and not care to as much whether you win or lose. I know half the fun is winning and getting better but come on why play if your just beating your self and getting pissed off. Yes try and improve try and think what went wrong and try and not do it next time. but don't beat your self up to much
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A lot of good advice is given here but as I tried to say in the OP, I have tried and tried to work on all these things. I know macro is the biggest part of any low league game and I do try, damn hard to do it. In my AI games, I can execute it just fine. Real games just don't really work for me.
As for posting replays, I don't need analysis about where my game play is bad. I know that for sure. It's just a matter of all my practice and study and learning just doesn't translate over into the game. It's easy to say to keep an eye on my supply the whole game, but when I'm fighting off a bunch of stuff, I don't have the multitasking ability to keep an eye out. I'm trying to handle things when things are going on.
I don't know. It just seems like the hundreds and probably thousands of hours I've invested into the game and all it has to offer community wise, I'm still just a chump in the Gold league. Discouragement is getting very hard to stave off when spending so much time and getting no where.
Hopefully I can keep my head up long enough to keep playing. I want to be one of those players that plays this game for ten years and wets his pants at the announcement of the next one. I know I'll never be a top Masters player. I never had that notion at all when starting and I don't now. Just seems like I should be able to handle more than I can now.
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On March 11 2011 09:34 Greg_J wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199432This thread was largely but not entirely about the oppersite. In which I was trying to argue that there is such a thing as talent and saying that if you practiced as much as Flash and Jaedong you would be just as good as them is just not true. So YES I think there are people that are just better and people that are just worse. However with people that are bad its normally things you can work on like mechanics and timings so a bit of practice will definately help a lot at a lower level. However at the top there will always be people that no matter how you practice they are just better than you. It also sounds like you get very nervous and you need to try not to some how (about the least useful words ever) . Its just a game, your just playing for fun right? Try to enjoy your self and not care to as much whether you win or lose. I know half the fun is winning and getting better but come on why play if your just beating your self and getting pissed off. Yes try and improve try and think what went wrong and try and not do it next time. but don't beat your self up to much
Please forgive the double post but this one does make the most sense. I was thinking last night that to Hades with my ladder score and forget about promotions and things of that nature. Hit the Random button and just go crazy with things and let the games play out as they do. It's something I should try and not worry so much about getting to a certain "place" in my play and just play as it should be. For fun.
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post reps dude. theres no reason you should be in gold league after that many games, especially in a game as inherently easy as starcraft2.
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On March 11 2011 09:40 Treetop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:34 Greg_J wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199432This thread was largely but not entirely about the oppersite. In which I was trying to argue that there is such a thing as talent and saying that if you practiced as much as Flash and Jaedong you would be just as good as them is just not true. So YES I think there are people that are just better and people that are just worse. However with people that are bad its normally things you can work on like mechanics and timings so a bit of practice will definately help a lot at a lower level. However at the top there will always be people that no matter how you practice they are just better than you. It also sounds like you get very nervous and you need to try not to some how (about the least useful words ever) . Its just a game, your just playing for fun right? Try to enjoy your self and not care to as much whether you win or lose. I know half the fun is winning and getting better but come on why play if your just beating your self and getting pissed off. Yes try and improve try and think what went wrong and try and not do it next time. but don't beat your self up to much Please forgive the double post but this one does make the most sense. I was thinking last night that to Hades with my ladder score and forget about promotions and things of that nature. Hit the Random button and just go crazy with things and let the games play out as they do. It's something I should try and not worry so much about getting to a certain "place" in my play and just play as it should be. For fun.
I would say just forget about build orders completely and just build whatever you want and focus on not getting supply blocked.
There was a useful practice method where you would build a huge army and just send it out to attack and not even look at the battle and focus solely on macroing back at home. I suggest you try it a couple times, because even I get caught up in all the battle action and realize that I'm not really doing anything useful
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Some people seem to be somehow inherently good ie. MorroW, Kolll, so yeah i guess some people must be inherently bad too.
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i feel like i'm the only person that doesn't believe in talent, or inherent skill.
i DO feel that some people pick up things faster, but with the right training, training frequency, and mindset you can make up for it.
i'd highly recommend having a skilled friend watch you when you play and give you advice. it really works wonders. you might think you're doing something well, but you're not. you get analysis with the same information you had available to you at the time.
make sure you write down the advice and keep it in mind for next time because if you spend too much time relearning what you forgot you'll never learn anything new.
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I think it mostly lies in how quickly thing's "click" when you're trying to understand a game. Especially if you didn't play bw (or other rts at a high level) it's going to be much more difficult for your brain to really make decisions quickly and accurately in-game, especially if you're nervous.
I know people that played counter strike with me for years, and wouldn't improve at all after hundreds of hours played. Then suddenly, something would click (they don't even know what they did differently) and suddenly improvement started happening, and at a very rapid rate.
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I do believe some people are just inherently bad at this game. Most of my friends that play are decent, but one is pretty bad and since beta we have been trying to teach him the basics and he just cant grasp how to properly play. It'll be 10 minutes into a game and he will still be on 10 drones. The idiot insists on opening 10pool because once in a while he gets a free win, and then if he doesnt get the free win he doesnt build more drones. He just masses units non stop. Doesnt matter how many times we explain this is a bad way to play he still does it.
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I don't think many people are per definition unable to be successful at SC2 or any other game for that matter. It's also mentionworthy that the people with <200 games diamond are most likely players with substantial rts or gaming experience.
I believe in the main benefactor for success is will, or how much you want that master badge / insert goal, sure some individuals have certain handicaps but they're both a. a minority and b. in many cases able to overcome said disadvantage, just look at the TL Deaf interviews.
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I think this is a common scenario in rts games in general. I know people who've remained at the d/d+ level for years on iccup back in bw. Albeit they didn't play for hours and hours everyday, but they did play regularly. I'd suggest making friends with higher level players or people you know you could learn from to get some perspective. I'm no pro, but players of different skill levels view the game entirely differently.
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On March 11 2011 09:52 kainzero wrote:
i feel like i'm the only person that doesn't believe in talent, or inherent skill.
i DO feel that some people pick up things faster, but with the right training, training frequency, and mindset you can make up for it.
i'd highly recommend having a skilled friend watch you when you play and give you advice. it really works wonders. you might think you're doing something well, but you're not. you get analysis with the same information you had available to you at the time.
make sure you write down the advice and keep it in mind for next time because if you spend too much time relearning what you forgot you'll never learn anything new.
I have a friend who's really book smart and studies a lot but would usually do poorly on any pop quizzes and such. He can be decent at the game if he practices, but it's clear that he has no on-the-fly decision making. This is something that people cannot develop. He'll go into a game with a certain plan and try to execute that plan without taking any risks or deviating from it. Sure if he got training from the best players in the world he would get better, but he would still be missing that critical decision making element.
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I think you just need some good practice partners or someone willing to point things out for you.
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Lazy post inc... tbh icba to read the responses. so sorry if its repost. The reason you are still in gold is prolly that you are grinding out ladder games. take a break and watch stream/Gsl. talk to people about strats / read strat frum on tl.. tbh if you dont have anyone close to you that playes you have an disatvantage. other than that .... day9?
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EPT
