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College: Yes or No?
Many modern societies place a lot of importance on attending college and obtaining a degree. It's pretty much common wisdom that one should go to college. I'm not interested in common wisdom.
The fact is, college is generally considered so important only because it is seen as a ticket to greater wealth. It's not about academics, it's about money (even on a large scale, many societies tend to value education primarily for economic reasons - to be more competitive worldwide, etc). It's true that, generally speaking, those with college degrees can earn a good bit more money over a lifetime than a non-degreed worker can, though even this shouldn't be taken totally for granted, as it is increasingly common to graduate college with a lot of debt and no sign of employment on the horizon. Anyhow, it's sad that college is linked so much with pay, considering a college education really has very little to do with practical skills that are needed for many jobs.
I'd contend that "putting up with" a college education for the sake of obtaining more wealth is a poor reason to go to college. So many people mistakenly believe that money is the key to freedom, but addiction to money and things is the opposite of freedom. It is far easier to become liberated by desiring less.
My feeling is that school should be for those who are passionate about learning in an academic environment, not for those who see education as just the most convenient route to making a lot of money. And school should not be seen as the only means of learning; many can learn just as well on their own, or with other motivated folks, and avoid a lot of debt in the process.
The fact is, however unpopular it may be, that one can live a very contented and meaningful existence without a college degree, even if it means living with less wealth. School is not for everyone, nor is the vigorous pursuit of wealth.
My advice is this: for those who are not particularly interested in college, or not fairly certain what it is they wish to study, I suggest taking some time, perhaps a year or five, and just live. Perhaps work a few jobs, explore hobbies, maybe travel (there is no reason one cannot travel with very little money, you just have to be more creative about it), or hell... maybe even slack a little (or a lot - why not? It's your life). Maybe after a time, you'll have some ideas about what it is you want to do with yourself. Or maybe not; you can just continue exploring and doing whatever.
All this pressure to Achieve is maybe a bit misguided. Look, wealth is not the same as happiness, and fame is fleeting. In the long run, money is meaningless and no one is remembered. Rather than living life in particular ways out of a sense of duty, why not relax? Why not explore? Family, friends, and society may place a lot of pressure on you to "better yourself" via education, and to make a lot of money, but it is you, not they, that has to live your life. And college, wealth, and even ambition, are not for everyone. Some of the most intelligent, well rounded, and happy people you could meet have never obtained a college degree, and many also do not have a lot of money. Why not slow down and enjoy the simple things?
I went to college and graduated, and frankly, in many ways, I wish I had not. The one thing I really got out of college is a shallow sort of confidence; if I hadn't gone, I might feel intimidated by those who had degrees, and feel I had cheated myself or that I was lacking something important. Now I know fully well that if I had never gone to college, it would be perfectly alright, and I'd be a perfectly respectable, decent person anyway. But for that silly sort of confidence, I am now in debt to the tune of 17000 USD (and this is below average debt for a graduate - I'm "lucky.") I'm not the sort of person that wants a lot of money, and I certainly do not want the sort of stress and BS that goes with earning a lot of money. I'm happy - not just content, but HAPPY - living on about 6 thousand USD a year. I'll likely never pay my debt down with the kinds of low stress, low pay jobs I am willing to work (and I purposely spend much time unemployed so that I can enjoy life), so it follows me around.
My debt isn't the only thing I regret. I regret wasting my time in classes. There were many classes I took just because I needed to get the credit towards my degree. Then there were some classes I took because I was genuinely interested, only to find most of the students were not engaging with the material (they were just there for the credit), and that the material was watered down so that your average (ie. uninterested) student could be reasonably expected to pass. There are very, very few instances I can think of where I believe that I learned better in college than I could have learned on my own. College was a waste of my time.
Anyway, my point isn't that no one should go to college. If you are academically motivated, and interested in college, give it a shot. If college really is the best route to take towards your goals, then by all means, go to college. Don't go to college just because family and friends and society tell you that it's "The Only Way." Don't go out of some sense of duty or obligation. Live your life the way you want to. Sometimes you may not even know how you want to live, and that's ok too. There are many paths through life, and it is a mistake to think that the unpopular ones are automatically unsatisfying, or somehow not worthwhile.
 
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The fact is, college is generally considered so important only because it is seen as a ticket to greater wealth.
Bzzt, wrong. 200 points have been deducted from your score.
In reality, there are two people who go to college: Those who want a degree and those who just go for their passion.
Make a choice.
The idea of money is just a derivative of what people truly go to college for: a job. The likelihood you get a job without a degree is much smaller even if your degree is A. irrelevant or B. bullshit.
My feeling is that school should be for those who are passionate about learning in an academic environment, not for those who see education as just the most convenient route to making a lot of money.
This is great and all and I'll agree with your mother-goose views, but that's not how the world works and unfortunately, values of passion and desire to learn have been long-gone. Education is not a convenient route, it's nearly an essential route. Plus from a logical standpoint, you can't evaluate passion nor does passion equate to commitment or determination. If you're motivated to get a good job, but are not passionate about class or learning, guess what: you'll get the good grades either way and the motivator plays a heavier role than one's values.
The fact is, however unpopular it may be, that one can live a very contented and meaningful existence without a college degree, even if it means living with less wealth. School is not for everyone, nor is the vigorous pursuit of wealth.
Not fact, but a viewpoint. Happiness is not the equivalent of wealth and you already know this, what you're saying here is rather pointless since we all know this and happiness is set by a large amount of standards and viewpoints.
My advice is this: for those who are not particularly interested in college, or not fairly certain what it is they wish to study, I suggest taking some time, perhaps a year or five, and just live. Perhaps work a few jobs, explore hobbies, maybe travel (there is no reason one cannot travel with very little money, you just have to be more creative about it), or hell... maybe even slack a little (or a lot - why not? It's your life). Maybe after a time, you'll have some ideas about what it is you want to do with yourself. Or maybe not; you can just continue exploring and doing whatever
Disagree, if tutition is cheap in your country. Go and get a degree. It's great and all that you're telling people to "find themselves" but beyond the novel thought-process, a cheap degree is a degree nonetheless and you have something to fall back on while your mind is still active. If you ask anyone who tried to get back into school and learning at a later point in their life, very few will tell you that they breezed it with ease.
You have a lot of time to live. If an opportunity is presented that is cheap, beneficial and worthwhile. Go do it, don't let incertainties prevent you from getting something that is valued more and more in the job market purely because you can't decide what you like.
Here's the bottom-line of your blog: 1. You went to college in the country that has the highest tuition fees.
2. You're telling others to stop and think about their choices because you regret yours which is foreshadowing doubt based on your own regret.
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I'm not going to college for the money
Going to learn, and meet people :p
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What you have hit correctly on the mark is that many people treat college (or university here in Australia) as a ticket towards getting a good job and a good financial future. And yes you're right, a tertiary education is not for everyone, there are those who would be happier if they took an apprenticeship, for instance.
However, you talked about how college gives you very few practical skills needed for jobs. I disagree with that. If you're in an industry related to your degree, the skills/knowledge you learn in college is highly applicable. Sure, you're going to need to learn on the job as well, but the basics you learn in college is very important.
Not only that, employers want to hire graduates because they have "proven themselves" so to speak. In order to graduate, you need to have some work ethic and discipline. If you're in a totally different field, then maybe some of the knowledge may be irrelevant.
Also, how to you live on 6000 USD a year??? Over here in Australia, if you're renting a place (and sharing as well) that will already cost you around $150 per week (lets say it includes utilities as well). That comes to 7.8k a year already and I haven't even factored in food + transportation costs.
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Bzzt, wrong. 200 points have been deducted from your score.
I
I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
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On March 03 2011 17:02 gork84 wrote:I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
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The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
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On March 03 2011 16:57 FragKrag wrote:
I'm not going to college for the money
Going to learn, and meet people :p
I would have gone to college just to learn more and get a higher education as well, the "get a job portion" was always secondary. For a while I really wanted to go all the way into grad school get a PhD but plans have changed. Nevertheless, I can't imagine being forced to go to an expensive school for four more years if you didn't somewhat enjoy part of what you're learning, and you learn "how to learn" as well, as weird as that sounds. You can apply some of the lessons to StarCraft, though.
I feel bad for the people who just want to grind it out for four years just to get their degree and shove themselves into the workforce. There are so many interesting things you can pick up from your instructors or by being involved in an extracurricular project.
Also you can play in the CSL and meet more SC nerds to stay up late and watch Proleague and GSL. GG
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On March 03 2011 17:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
Bingo. Even if you are against the fundamental difference between university and high-school diplomas and feel that people "should listen to their heart", the point of the matter is that a college diploma is nothing bad and doing it with the incurred debt is much better than stopping at high-school.
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On March 03 2011 17:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
Whoa there, I sense a slight tinge of negativity. I agree wholeheartedly that the benefits of going to college outweigh the negatives. I just think the vast majority go because that is what is expected of them.
I do however believe the OP does make a point that there is too much obsession over money/success/normalcy. What IS important is that you are happy, whether that means you go to college or not. I know way too many people who have gone to college to end up unable to get a job, being told they are overqualified, or got a degree in a field that is bottoming out and couldn't keep a job. Of course, here in Michigan we are one of the few states that currently has a decreasing population due to people moving away.
A degree isn't what it used to be. Getting one doesn't mean finding or even keeping a job is any easier.
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Hah, NPR just did a program on this topic which I listened to while driving home tonight (http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/03/02/should-everybody-go-to-college). Their topic was focused on "does college really prepare people for jobs / later goals in life" but it did touch on a couple of your points. As someone who always preferred learning-by-doing to learning-by-lecture, I disliked large parts of my secondary and college education because of the big disconnect between college classroom/dorm life and professional life; I really just wanted to go do stuff instead of learn all day, but sadly a high school education in the US is pretty much useless and there isn't a good alternative besides going to college. I ended up going the route of least resistance and got my CS degree at an ivy which did prepare me pretty well, but it was an overpriced and inefficient use of 4 years.
p.s. It is good to see you are still kicking Ink, because you haven't logged onto iccup in months 
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For those who are enjoying college, or have reason to think they will greatly enjoy it, for whatever reason (friends, "hot chicks," fascinating classes, etc): Fantastic! I don't want to discourage you.
For those who are struggling in college, maybe with bad grades, lack of interest, lack of motivation, etc, I suggest CONSIDERING alternatives. Likewise with those who feel pressured to attend college but don't feel any particular drive to pursue education; education is not the only way. I've learned (and continue to learn) far more on my own than I ever learned in college.
And I especially like to reiterate: education is emphasized as a ticket to wealth. And wealth is sought after as a sort of liberation - liberation from worry, from need, from desire. Hey, things are ok.. I don't hate things. I like shelter and food and my bicycle. But ADDICTION to wealth (and I think it's safe to say modern societies are all about addiction to wealth) is the OPPOSITE of liberation. Desire is a tricky thing, because it makes one believe that acquiring the object of desire will alleviate desire. This has never happened. Desire just shifts to new things. If you want to be free, work on desire itself.
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On March 03 2011 17:25 gork84 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 17:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
Whoa there, I sense a slight tinge of negativity. I agree wholeheartedly that the benefits of going to college outweigh the negatives. I just think the vast majority go because that is what is expected of them. I do however believe the OP does make a point that there is too much obsession over money/success/normalcy. What IS important is that you are happy, whether that means you go to college or not. I know way too many people who have gone to college to end up unable to get a job, being told they are overqualified, or got a degree in a field that is bottoming out and couldn't keep a job. Of course, here in Michigan we are one of the few states that currently has a decreasing population due to people moving away. A degree isn't what it used to be. Getting one doesn't mean finding or even keeping a job is any easier.
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
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How to live on less than 6000 a year, as one poster asks: a topic for another post, really, and maybe I'll go there. But really, it's not hard. What are the major expenses? You hit on it: housing and transport. So share housing and ditch expensive transport. I share rent and/or mooch housing. I went car-free a year ago and rely on my bicycle instead (this is a huge improvement for me; I wasn't using my car anyway since I hate driving so much). That's the two big expenses. Beyond that, just focus on elimating expenses. Other than spending on food and housing, I spent 2 dollars in the last 7 months. That means: no CD's, no cell phone, etc. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. Most people who frequent TL would NOT be happy with my lifestyle, because they have a lot more desire than I do. So you can do what it takes to acquire what you desire, or you can work on your desire.
I have a friend who lives on less than 4000 a year, and another friend who lives on about 2000 a year (he's an ex college professor that gives most of his money away to poor people).
Ah, and good to see you CoffeeToss! I quit BW without warning a few months back; it was doing me no good. Peace brotha!
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If you know what you want to do, go do it.
If you don't, go to school, figure it out there and meet with millions of other young adults unsure as well.
I think everything else is just pointless drivel trying to persuade the other party that there is another way based on their own personal experience.
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[B]On March 03 2011 17:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
Nothing wrong with a touch of cynicism. Sometimes it's just fun to argue devils advocate as well :D
Eh, one could argue my views are all personal experience anywho. I myself work in a job that has nothing to do with my degree, yet is something I enjoy. I have friends who went to school and ended up with 6 figure salaries and they are some of the most unhappy people I know due to the amount of stress/intensity of their schedule. At the same time I work with people on the other side of the spectrum who don't make nearly as much who are quite happy. It's all what you want and what you make of it. Correlation is not always causation.
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On March 03 2011 17:45 gork84 wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On March 03 2011 17:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
Nothing wrong with a touch of cynicism. Sometimes it's just fun to argue devils advocate as well :D Eh, one could argue my views are all personal experience anywho. I myself work in a job that has nothing to do with my degree, yet is something I enjoy. I have friends who went to school and ended up with 6 figure salaries and they are some of the most unhappy people I know due to the amount of stress/intensity of their schedule. At the same time I work with people on the other side of the spectrum who don't make nearly as much who are quite happy. It's all what you want and what you make of it. Correlation is not always causation.
I'm a catholic and throw holy water of perceived truth at you D:< !
Ask those guys working 6-figure salaries if they regret ever cementing their safety of all financial worry and of the relief of getting a good higher education.
Even then, I'll scream anecdotal.
I already touched upon happiness and standards. It's almost irrelevant with diplomas because those are not the goals and the OP misguides the whole idea.
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I hear you on quitting Ink, I cut back too, but I still play a few games a week for fun ^^
On March 03 2011 17:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
The counter argument to this statistic is that the majority of people who get a college degree already come from affluent middle class backgrounds, network with their peers at college and with their parents networks, and propagate the cycle.
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16996 Posts
There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872
University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
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Other than spending on food and housing, I spent 2 dollars in the last 7 months. That means: no CD's, no cell phone, etc. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.
So let's see what you've been given free:
Internet
Electricity
Water
Telephone
Self hygiene (toothbrush/toothpaste/shampoo/soap/detergent)
Food/room hygiene (dishwashing detergent/scrubber/mop/broom/garbage bags/tissues/toilet paper)
Appliances (stove/microwave/washing machine/dryer)
Clothes (even thrift store clothes cost money)
And if you're telling me that you didn't spend a single cent on any of those, then I must wonder what you and your dwelling must look like. Fact of the matter is, USA isn't socialist; someone is paying for all of those.
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EPT
