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Trap's point is worth consideration:
On March 03 2011 17:34 Trap wrote:
Hah, NPR just did a program on this topic which I listened to while driving home tonight (http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/03/02/should-everybody-go-to-college). Their topic was focused on "does college really prepare people for jobs / later goals in life" but it did touch on a couple of your points. As someone who always preferred learning-by-doing to learning-by-lecture, I disliked large parts of my secondary and college education because of the big disconnect between college classroom/dorm life and professional life; I really just wanted to go do stuff instead of learn all day, but sadly a high school education in the US is pretty much useless and there isn't a good alternative besides going to college. I ended up going the route of least resistance and got my CS degree at an ivy which did prepare me pretty well, but it was an overpriced and inefficient use of 4 years.
A significant problem with conventional schooling is that it abstracts the learning. One is sealed off from the subject one is studying, learning about it abstractly. And how successful schooling is: it takes, apparently, close to a quarter of the average person's lifespan just to become prepared for "the real world."
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Really depends whether or not you can afford schooling, how much the amenities (fun) of school you would enjoy, and how much you like increased future wages.
Up to you though.
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On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow..
The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea.
In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor.
I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though.
And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview.
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What job are you trying to get, OP?
Unless you have a ridiculous amount of experience with it already, you're not going to be able to compete with those who have a college degree, as employees infer from a degree (either rightfully so or not) that they're going to be more qualified than you at the job, because they've received more education surrounding the field they're going into.
That piece of paper is really important, especially in America, regardless of how much bullshit you had to go through to get it.
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College is only worthwhile if you're studying something that begets the term 'higher education'. A vast majority of degrees offered by schools in the U.S. don't grant any desirable (to a typical employer) knowledge or expand a student's skillset in any particular way.
That said - if you're pursuing math, engineering, chemistry, biology, physics, economics, accounting, law, medicine or computer science (beyond a bachelor's) or a handful of other subjects, then yeah, go to college. That's where you have to go to learn more about that field.
If you're just looking for a job, a 2-year business degree will get you that 9 to 5 fix.
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I worked as a freshman RA for three years and yes, I can confirm that a lot of people go to college out of obligation to parents without a clue of what, exactly, they want out of life.
On the other hand, what 18-year-old really knows what they want out of life? Few do.
This catches up to most people in their second year. It's so common that many university's call it "the sophomore slump" characterized by questioning yourself, doubt on major, and growing up a bit more and discovering what you really want.
Growing up...now THERE'S the key phrase...
No matter what you do, you need to grow up. This means becoming completely self-sustaining, independent, and paving your own way for what you wish to accomplish. Whether you decided to go to college or not, you're going to need to grow up either way.
Another way I look at college is like "the real world - light". I wouldn't consider classroom, homework, and job routines close to what you find in "the real world", but you definitely get a flavor for what to expect when you get out. You can still make decisions that echo through your future (like credit card debt or legal troubles), but you don't have, say, a family and kids to care for while you're living what you think is life. Do you need time to figure yourself out? Yes. Can you do it in college just as easily as in the real world? Yes. You go to college to advance yourself academically, but if in the process you find your passion and you could just as easily do it without a degree, then hasn't college served its purpose?
In closing, if you can go to college, do it. It's a privilege that isn't commonly enjoyed on a global scale. If you decide to go be prepared to advance yourself personally and academically. If you decide not to go to college - do the same thing. Part of growing up is realizing that you're always growing and always learning. You don't need a degree to teach you that, but I could list a bunch of professors that helped me on my way.
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Here's my take on things.
It truly depends on what you want to do with your life. Certain career paths pretty much REQUIRE a college degree. One example is engineering (what I am studying). Another is law, or medicine, or many other scientific fields. There is too much to learn to simply learn on the job. I work in a biomedical research lab in my spare time for some extra money. I often notice that I am falling behind on the basic knowledge of what we are doing when compared to another undergrad in the lab who is actually studying that material in the classroom. Thats not to say I'm not trying to learn, but she has a much better grasp of it than I do.
For certain, for other professions out there the degree is more symbolic than anything. But there are alot that require college.
Another way I look at college is like "the real world - light". I wouldn't consider classroom, homework, and job routines close to what you find in "the real world", but you definitely get a flavor for what to expect when you get out. You can still make decisions that echo through your future (like credit card debt or legal troubles), but you don't have, say, a family and kids to care for while you're living what you think is life. Do you need time to figure yourself out? Yes. Can you do it in college just as easily as in the real world? Yes. You go to college to advance yourself academically, but if in the process you find your passion and you could just as easily do it without a degree, then hasn't college served its purpose?
This is 100% spot on. College gives you the perfect opportunity to kind of "ease" yourself into the real world. I would elaborate on this, but I think Servius_Fulvius said it perfectly.
I'd contend that "putting up with" a college education for the sake of obtaining more wealth is a poor reason to go to college. So many people mistakenly believe that money is the key to freedom, but addiction to money and things is the opposite of freedom. It is far easier to become liberated by desiring less.
OP, I feel like many people, including myself, go to college not for the wealth (I have absolutely no desire to be "rich"), but to be able to be qualified for the job I want. Also, colleges can give you great connections to recruiters in the workforce, connections that you would have troubles finding elsewhere. I recently accepted an internship position for the summer (which I am extremely excited for!) that I would have never been able to get without attending college.
Besides, there are tons of fun experiences to be had at college. It is the last time in your life where you can have an excuse to act like an immature kid from time to time 
I agree college is not for everyone, many people simply have nothing to gain from it. However, I think it is the perfect thing for people who are either looking into math/science/law/engineering/etc. OR for people who are simply looking to explore their options!
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The answer to the thread title is (drumroll) yes! The only people who should avoid college are the dumb, lazy, or poor. It makes you a well rounded person (if you do it right) and as you joked about earlier in the thread, it does prepare you for the real world. Although, if one wants to skip college, I'm sure the world will be much much more real for that person. Struggling to do everything and having wildlife in your apartment all the time is about as real as it gets.
The exceptions to this rule are few and far between. My job freakin' owns and I wouldn't have gotten it without my degree. College is never a waste of time if you know what you're doing and actually care.
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If you don't have anything better to do, why not? It can help you get things sorted out or at least eliminate what you DON'T want to do for the rest of your life. Worst case scenario, you don't get anything educational-wise, but networked with a bunch of people that can help you for the rest of your life.
But, if you're already interested in a specific occupation that doesn't require a college degree, then go for it.
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Personally, I feel the greatest benefits of college/university have very little to do with what classes you take but rather the atmosphere you are exposed to and how it can affect you - if you let it.
University is a great opportunity to get outside of your comfort zone. It's a chance to meet and interact with types of people you may otherwise not be exposed to. It's a chance to have your biases challenged and be exposed to opinions you would not have considered. It's a way to get our of your small pond and become more self-aware.
In that sense, I would recommend it to almost anybody.
Obviously it's only one way to grow as a person - the same benefits can be achieved in other ways. But university provides one of the more obvious, reasonable, and accessible means to this end.
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Money doesn't tend to motivate people. Increase someone's paycheck by 10% and they're not going to be 10% more productive, or even an ounce more productive. Pride is the best motivator.
Definitely, definitely go to college. It's the best learning and social experience you'll ever have. You'll learn just as much about the world as you will about yourself. Contrary to popular belief, teenagers don't know everything.
Like flaccid said, it takes you out of your small pond and throws you into a giant lake. Its up to you whether you're going to sink or swim, and being motivated to get a good career and find a job you really enjoy is the best way to swim.
And, word of warning, if you end up picking a course of study because you felt obligated to through your parents, or you couldn't think of anything better, (like I did), you'll set yourself back even more than if you just joined the workforce. Pick something you love, no matter how much it pays. A 30-year career in a job you hate isn't worth any amount of money. Having said that, its not all-bad if you make mistakes in course study. My first degree was a bad choice, but I learned a lot about myself, improved my ability to interact socially by a factor of a billion. It taught me problem solving and analytical skills that I've applied constantly since.
Education is what you make of it. The amount you gain from it depends entirely on how much work you're willing to put in and I would even suggest paying for everything yourself (through loans etc., of course). Having it all paid for you just makes you lazy and complacent (like I was!). If you're paying for it yourself, then every moment you waste is your own decision. Again, pride is a good motivator.
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I would not argue that everyone should attend college. If you love working with cars, and know what you're doing, why not take a job right out of high school. If you are just good at coming up with ideas and selling them to people, why not jump right into starting your own business.
I would disagree though with the idea that you should not attend college if you don't have a specific purpose for it (Comp Sci, Nursing, etc.). The way this argument is given makes it sound like college (I use this word interchangeably with uni, cause there's not much difference in US; Idk about elsewhere) is solely about classroom learning. Nothing is further from the truth, in my mind. The value of college comes from interacting with people from all over the world, of all different cultures, religions, worldviews, and backgrounds, in order to broaden your own mind. It also acts as a transition step between high school, when your parents take care of everything still, and the 'real world', when you become responsible for everything. If you aren't getting those things out of college, go to a better college. If you have to go into debt for school, work harder and get a scholarship.
Having grown up in a home where affording food was often not possible, I have come to be content with the very basic necessities, and see no need for money beyond food, shelter, and clothing. Just because I see no need doesn't mean I don't desire more than the bare minimum-- I enjoy giving Christmas presents to my siblings, and having a computer, and occasionally buying Chinese food--but I don't want any tremendous amount of wealth. I have no plans to pursue a job that would pay in the 6 figures, and I am 'studying' something that really you don't need to a college degree for if you are good at it and self-motivated. I think the 'educational' system is a bit of a travesty, and very little real 'education' actually occurs in it. By your reasoning, it seems I should not be at college.
For the experience though, I am paying $60k a year (I use paying to including the earning of various scholarships as well as the actual jobs I work to provide for myself), and I would say it is totally worth it. If you have no good reason not to go to college, there's no reason you should miss out on the learning opportunity.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I don't think you are qualified to give advice in any way.
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Don't go unless you already know for sure what you degree you want and what job you want, and have a good plan of getting from A to B. For example, don't get a degree in music, go to graduate school for music, and then when it's all said and done be like "gee, I guess now I'll start looking around the country and see what jobs I can get with this degree". Know ahead of time that you want to work in that field, and that people will want to hire you because you have X degree.
For anther example, I know and work with people who went comp-sci because they "liked working with computers" only to realize way too late that they suck at or hate programming. So now they are sitting in a low-ish paid job as a fairly brainless sales/marketing rep with a comp-sci degree that isn't paying for itself. When if you are interested in computers, there are plenty of very high paying jobs you can get with just going for certs instead a degree, which are both cheaper and more directly related to on the job work. The same is true for many different fields though, depending on what you want to do it might be both cheaper and more effective if you go for specialized certifications instead of a degree.
Just plan ahead, it's way too much money to be half assed about. Like in starcraft, if you spend the money on it, you want it to AT LEAST break even later on in the game.
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On March 03 2011 17:02 gork84 wrote:I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
for the same reason but looked at in another way, thats actually why i go to college. im ignorant and i want to learn.
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To the OP~
I'm just confused to exactly where you live that 6000 USD a year can support you.
Okay, with careful budgeting, you might get by with the bare necessities, but what happens when you break a bone without medical insurance? Or work dries up in your immediate area? Or rent goes up? The contingencies in life are the problem, not the standard day by day.
Also, I don't necessarily see work as something that decreases my enjoyment of life, as you might perceive it to be. That's the entire point of finding work in an area you're interested in.
On March 04 2011 03:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
Don't go unless you already know for sure what you degree you want and what job you want, and have a good plan of getting from A to B. For example, don't get a degree in music, go to graduate school for music, and then when it's all said and done be like "gee, I guess now I'll start looking around the country and see what jobs I can get with this degree". Know ahead of time that you want to work in that field, and that people will want to hire you because you have X degree.
Disagree here too. There's nothing wrong with going to college with a job in mind afterwards, but there's nothing wrong with going to college without a job in mind. If your end goal is only money, sure, planning ahead for a job immediately after college is fine, but it's a little sad if your only goal is money.
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16986 Posts
On March 03 2011 20:55 Hellhammer wrote:Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow.. The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea. In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor. I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though. And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the American public can't be effective engineers, doctors, physicists, chemists, or much else that actually requires tertiary education. We live in an economy where most jobs simply don't require a college degree. Think cashiers, factory workers, cleaners, garbage collectors, etc. Jobs which require advanced technical training (think plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, etc.) are better served by students coming from vocational schools rather than traditional colleges.
Think about it: would you rather have your car serviced by someone who spent 2 years in technical school and then working as an apprentice at a local shop, or by a communications major who, in the course of four years, learns virtually nothing that deals with cars? And before someone makes the point of "communications majors don't generally go into automotive repair," I'd like to contend that the majority of communications majors don't end up doing anything with their degree, and most will end up being baristas or cashiers or whatever. It would've saved them time and energy if they just got a job straight out of college instead of going into massive debt.
The country is graduating legions of communications majors from second rate schools, and it's in no one's best interest (except that of the schools, of course) for those students to do anything except drink five nights a week and occasionally show up to class. Of course you have the rare communications student who is intellectually curious and works to perfect his writing and rhetoric, but let's not delude ourselves here.
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17000 USD? O wow. I graduated from UofT debt-free  .
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The op makes much more sense if you understand that inky, while cool, is the biggest hippie you'll find on this site by far
but the thread title and the discussion following is a bit misleading. He's arguing for a more bohemian lifestyle or whatever you wanna call it, not that you can make bank by skipping school.
there's def good points if you consider that while reading
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On March 04 2011 04:13 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 20:55 Hellhammer wrote:On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce. Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow.. The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea. In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor. I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though. And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the American public can't be effective engineers, doctors, physicists, chemists, or much else that actually requires tertiary education. We live in an economy where most jobs simply don't require a college degree. Think cashiers, factory workers, cleaners, garbage collectors, etc. Jobs which require advanced technical training (think plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, etc.) are better served by students coming from vocational schools rather than traditional colleges. Think about it: would you rather have your car serviced by someone who spent 2 years in technical school and then working as an apprentice at a local shop, or by a communications major who, in the course of four years, learns virtually nothing that deals with cars? And before someone makes the point of "communications majors don't generally go into automotive repair," I'd like to contend that the majority of communications majors don't end up doing anything with their degree, and most will end up being baristas or cashiers or whatever. It would've saved them time and energy if they just got a job straight out of college instead of going into massive debt. The country is graduating legions of communications majors from second rate schools, and it's in no one's best interest (except that of the schools, of course) for those students to do anything except drink five nights a week and occasionally show up to class. Of course you have the rare communications student who is intellectually curious and works to perfect his writing and rhetoric, but let's not delude ourselves here.
I wasn't clear enough on my last point, and that's my fault. Let me explain:
While I don't think that trade schools or tech schools is a bad idea, I think the institutions are not very necessary. I actually went to a trade school myself out of high school, which I believe was a mistake, but for my own personal reasons. I do agree with you that if you want to hit the workforce right out of high school, or enter a tech school, so be it. But what I was disagreeing with is how few educated people there are already, and you suggest to even decrease that number more. In no way will I agree that there should be fewer students in Universities, but maybe more educated students going in to University.
What I mean is, if Joe the plumber is a smart cookie, and thinks University is important just because, University is important, he should follow your track; I hope that is common sense. But if Joe wants to create more opportunities for himself, he should attend University, and get a degree. A degree gives you so many options, and if down the line Joe were to injure his hand, or decide that plumbing isn't for him, he has the option to switch. Versus taking the alternative route and ends up hating his dead-end job, or is skill-less and can't do anything about his hand injury.
To my dismay though, when I left my 1st year of training to go to work, literally 99% of the theory and code I had learned was completely useless. This went for the 2nd and 3rd year too, yet I was expecting this at that point and didn't really care, I was only attending to get my certificate. Everything was learned on the job, and usually from your superior/ Journeyman. I could have skipped school completely, and actually been much more successful at my job because I wouldn't have any conflicting information in my head. Also to note, this wasn't just in my trade specifically, as all trades are like this. You can easily learn all the theory in a 2 month course, and never have to set foot inside a classroom again. All practical labs is 'work' anyway. Completely unnecessary, and a waste of time and money.
What I would like to address is at the high school level. The lack of teaching important subjects, and the lack of quality of teachers. While social and history is important, it has very little place in high school, and the practical real world. I know this is a bold statement, but this subject should be removed for engineering or advanced math courses. This sets students up with a lot more knowledge and teaches them to look at the world in a better view point. This will literally make our world smarter and more efficient.
The reason why US graduates useless students, in terms of practicality to the real world, is the way middle-high school sets them up for failure. Public schools are in such ruin, from the 70s to present, is the reason why America is in a very poor state. A lot of students don't even know what they want to study in post-secondary, even after a year or two of studying at said college. If public schools are fixed, this will set up proper 'tracking'. More people who want to be Joe the plumber, can be Joe the plumber, without regretting going to school. While at the same time, more people who thought they wanted to be a communications major wouldn't bother studying it in the first place, if the high schools were doing their job in the first place.
If public school systems were 'correct', in return colleges would be tenfold better and more efficient and Universities would never, ever, graduate a useless student. There would be no wrong direction a student could move to. I think Bill Gates says it best "We can not sustain an economy based on innovation unless we have citizens well educated in math, science, and engineering. If we fail at this, we won't be able to compete in the global economy."
Edit: facts: 123 million jobs will be high skilled, high paid by 2020. Only 50 million Americans will be qualified to preform those jobs. So how many cashiers do you think America needs 
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EPT
