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College: Yes or No?
Many modern societies place a lot of importance on attending college and obtaining a degree. It's pretty much common wisdom that one should go to college. I'm not interested in common wisdom.
The fact is, college is generally considered so important only because it is seen as a ticket to greater wealth. It's not about academics, it's about money (even on a large scale, many societies tend to value education primarily for economic reasons - to be more competitive worldwide, etc). It's true that, generally speaking, those with college degrees can earn a good bit more money over a lifetime than a non-degreed worker can, though even this shouldn't be taken totally for granted, as it is increasingly common to graduate college with a lot of debt and no sign of employment on the horizon. Anyhow, it's sad that college is linked so much with pay, considering a college education really has very little to do with practical skills that are needed for many jobs.
I'd contend that "putting up with" a college education for the sake of obtaining more wealth is a poor reason to go to college. So many people mistakenly believe that money is the key to freedom, but addiction to money and things is the opposite of freedom. It is far easier to become liberated by desiring less.
My feeling is that school should be for those who are passionate about learning in an academic environment, not for those who see education as just the most convenient route to making a lot of money. And school should not be seen as the only means of learning; many can learn just as well on their own, or with other motivated folks, and avoid a lot of debt in the process.
The fact is, however unpopular it may be, that one can live a very contented and meaningful existence without a college degree, even if it means living with less wealth. School is not for everyone, nor is the vigorous pursuit of wealth.
My advice is this: for those who are not particularly interested in college, or not fairly certain what it is they wish to study, I suggest taking some time, perhaps a year or five, and just live. Perhaps work a few jobs, explore hobbies, maybe travel (there is no reason one cannot travel with very little money, you just have to be more creative about it), or hell... maybe even slack a little (or a lot - why not? It's your life). Maybe after a time, you'll have some ideas about what it is you want to do with yourself. Or maybe not; you can just continue exploring and doing whatever.
All this pressure to Achieve is maybe a bit misguided. Look, wealth is not the same as happiness, and fame is fleeting. In the long run, money is meaningless and no one is remembered. Rather than living life in particular ways out of a sense of duty, why not relax? Why not explore? Family, friends, and society may place a lot of pressure on you to "better yourself" via education, and to make a lot of money, but it is you, not they, that has to live your life. And college, wealth, and even ambition, are not for everyone. Some of the most intelligent, well rounded, and happy people you could meet have never obtained a college degree, and many also do not have a lot of money. Why not slow down and enjoy the simple things?
I went to college and graduated, and frankly, in many ways, I wish I had not. The one thing I really got out of college is a shallow sort of confidence; if I hadn't gone, I might feel intimidated by those who had degrees, and feel I had cheated myself or that I was lacking something important. Now I know fully well that if I had never gone to college, it would be perfectly alright, and I'd be a perfectly respectable, decent person anyway. But for that silly sort of confidence, I am now in debt to the tune of 17000 USD (and this is below average debt for a graduate - I'm "lucky.") I'm not the sort of person that wants a lot of money, and I certainly do not want the sort of stress and BS that goes with earning a lot of money. I'm happy - not just content, but HAPPY - living on about 6 thousand USD a year. I'll likely never pay my debt down with the kinds of low stress, low pay jobs I am willing to work (and I purposely spend much time unemployed so that I can enjoy life), so it follows me around.
My debt isn't the only thing I regret. I regret wasting my time in classes. There were many classes I took just because I needed to get the credit towards my degree. Then there were some classes I took because I was genuinely interested, only to find most of the students were not engaging with the material (they were just there for the credit), and that the material was watered down so that your average (ie. uninterested) student could be reasonably expected to pass. There are very, very few instances I can think of where I believe that I learned better in college than I could have learned on my own. College was a waste of my time.
Anyway, my point isn't that no one should go to college. If you are academically motivated, and interested in college, give it a shot. If college really is the best route to take towards your goals, then by all means, go to college. Don't go to college just because family and friends and society tell you that it's "The Only Way." Don't go out of some sense of duty or obligation. Live your life the way you want to. Sometimes you may not even know how you want to live, and that's ok too. There are many paths through life, and it is a mistake to think that the unpopular ones are automatically unsatisfying, or somehow not worthwhile.
 
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The fact is, college is generally considered so important only because it is seen as a ticket to greater wealth.
Bzzt, wrong. 200 points have been deducted from your score.
In reality, there are two people who go to college: Those who want a degree and those who just go for their passion.
Make a choice.
The idea of money is just a derivative of what people truly go to college for: a job. The likelihood you get a job without a degree is much smaller even if your degree is A. irrelevant or B. bullshit.
My feeling is that school should be for those who are passionate about learning in an academic environment, not for those who see education as just the most convenient route to making a lot of money.
This is great and all and I'll agree with your mother-goose views, but that's not how the world works and unfortunately, values of passion and desire to learn have been long-gone. Education is not a convenient route, it's nearly an essential route. Plus from a logical standpoint, you can't evaluate passion nor does passion equate to commitment or determination. If you're motivated to get a good job, but are not passionate about class or learning, guess what: you'll get the good grades either way and the motivator plays a heavier role than one's values.
The fact is, however unpopular it may be, that one can live a very contented and meaningful existence without a college degree, even if it means living with less wealth. School is not for everyone, nor is the vigorous pursuit of wealth.
Not fact, but a viewpoint. Happiness is not the equivalent of wealth and you already know this, what you're saying here is rather pointless since we all know this and happiness is set by a large amount of standards and viewpoints.
My advice is this: for those who are not particularly interested in college, or not fairly certain what it is they wish to study, I suggest taking some time, perhaps a year or five, and just live. Perhaps work a few jobs, explore hobbies, maybe travel (there is no reason one cannot travel with very little money, you just have to be more creative about it), or hell... maybe even slack a little (or a lot - why not? It's your life). Maybe after a time, you'll have some ideas about what it is you want to do with yourself. Or maybe not; you can just continue exploring and doing whatever
Disagree, if tutition is cheap in your country. Go and get a degree. It's great and all that you're telling people to "find themselves" but beyond the novel thought-process, a cheap degree is a degree nonetheless and you have something to fall back on while your mind is still active. If you ask anyone who tried to get back into school and learning at a later point in their life, very few will tell you that they breezed it with ease.
You have a lot of time to live. If an opportunity is presented that is cheap, beneficial and worthwhile. Go do it, don't let incertainties prevent you from getting something that is valued more and more in the job market purely because you can't decide what you like.
Here's the bottom-line of your blog: 1. You went to college in the country that has the highest tuition fees.
2. You're telling others to stop and think about their choices because you regret yours which is foreshadowing doubt based on your own regret.
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I'm not going to college for the money
Going to learn, and meet people :p
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What you have hit correctly on the mark is that many people treat college (or university here in Australia) as a ticket towards getting a good job and a good financial future. And yes you're right, a tertiary education is not for everyone, there are those who would be happier if they took an apprenticeship, for instance.
However, you talked about how college gives you very few practical skills needed for jobs. I disagree with that. If you're in an industry related to your degree, the skills/knowledge you learn in college is highly applicable. Sure, you're going to need to learn on the job as well, but the basics you learn in college is very important.
Not only that, employers want to hire graduates because they have "proven themselves" so to speak. In order to graduate, you need to have some work ethic and discipline. If you're in a totally different field, then maybe some of the knowledge may be irrelevant.
Also, how to you live on 6000 USD a year??? Over here in Australia, if you're renting a place (and sharing as well) that will already cost you around $150 per week (lets say it includes utilities as well). That comes to 7.8k a year already and I haven't even factored in food + transportation costs.
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Bzzt, wrong. 200 points have been deducted from your score.
I
I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
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On March 03 2011 17:02 gork84 wrote:I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
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The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
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On March 03 2011 16:57 FragKrag wrote:
I'm not going to college for the money
Going to learn, and meet people :p
I would have gone to college just to learn more and get a higher education as well, the "get a job portion" was always secondary. For a while I really wanted to go all the way into grad school get a PhD but plans have changed. Nevertheless, I can't imagine being forced to go to an expensive school for four more years if you didn't somewhat enjoy part of what you're learning, and you learn "how to learn" as well, as weird as that sounds. You can apply some of the lessons to StarCraft, though.
I feel bad for the people who just want to grind it out for four years just to get their degree and shove themselves into the workforce. There are so many interesting things you can pick up from your instructors or by being involved in an extracurricular project.
Also you can play in the CSL and meet more SC nerds to stay up late and watch Proleague and GSL. GG
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On March 03 2011 17:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
Bingo. Even if you are against the fundamental difference between university and high-school diplomas and feel that people "should listen to their heart", the point of the matter is that a college diploma is nothing bad and doing it with the incurred debt is much better than stopping at high-school.
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On March 03 2011 17:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
Whoa there, I sense a slight tinge of negativity. I agree wholeheartedly that the benefits of going to college outweigh the negatives. I just think the vast majority go because that is what is expected of them.
I do however believe the OP does make a point that there is too much obsession over money/success/normalcy. What IS important is that you are happy, whether that means you go to college or not. I know way too many people who have gone to college to end up unable to get a job, being told they are overqualified, or got a degree in a field that is bottoming out and couldn't keep a job. Of course, here in Michigan we are one of the few states that currently has a decreasing population due to people moving away.
A degree isn't what it used to be. Getting one doesn't mean finding or even keeping a job is any easier.
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Hah, NPR just did a program on this topic which I listened to while driving home tonight (http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/03/02/should-everybody-go-to-college). Their topic was focused on "does college really prepare people for jobs / later goals in life" but it did touch on a couple of your points. As someone who always preferred learning-by-doing to learning-by-lecture, I disliked large parts of my secondary and college education because of the big disconnect between college classroom/dorm life and professional life; I really just wanted to go do stuff instead of learn all day, but sadly a high school education in the US is pretty much useless and there isn't a good alternative besides going to college. I ended up going the route of least resistance and got my CS degree at an ivy which did prepare me pretty well, but it was an overpriced and inefficient use of 4 years.
p.s. It is good to see you are still kicking Ink, because you haven't logged onto iccup in months 
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For those who are enjoying college, or have reason to think they will greatly enjoy it, for whatever reason (friends, "hot chicks," fascinating classes, etc): Fantastic! I don't want to discourage you.
For those who are struggling in college, maybe with bad grades, lack of interest, lack of motivation, etc, I suggest CONSIDERING alternatives. Likewise with those who feel pressured to attend college but don't feel any particular drive to pursue education; education is not the only way. I've learned (and continue to learn) far more on my own than I ever learned in college.
And I especially like to reiterate: education is emphasized as a ticket to wealth. And wealth is sought after as a sort of liberation - liberation from worry, from need, from desire. Hey, things are ok.. I don't hate things. I like shelter and food and my bicycle. But ADDICTION to wealth (and I think it's safe to say modern societies are all about addiction to wealth) is the OPPOSITE of liberation. Desire is a tricky thing, because it makes one believe that acquiring the object of desire will alleviate desire. This has never happened. Desire just shifts to new things. If you want to be free, work on desire itself.
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On March 03 2011 17:25 gork84 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 17:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
Oh no, following the conventional norm of getting a higher education to understand the society you fundamentally cooperate with. What a terrible idea, I'm dropping out now.
I think if you know what you want to do, go do it. If you don't know, get that higher education and find out more of all the fields as you learn very useful and good information.
Whoa there, I sense a slight tinge of negativity. I agree wholeheartedly that the benefits of going to college outweigh the negatives. I just think the vast majority go because that is what is expected of them. I do however believe the OP does make a point that there is too much obsession over money/success/normalcy. What IS important is that you are happy, whether that means you go to college or not. I know way too many people who have gone to college to end up unable to get a job, being told they are overqualified, or got a degree in a field that is bottoming out and couldn't keep a job. Of course, here in Michigan we are one of the few states that currently has a decreasing population due to people moving away. A degree isn't what it used to be. Getting one doesn't mean finding or even keeping a job is any easier.
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
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How to live on less than 6000 a year, as one poster asks: a topic for another post, really, and maybe I'll go there. But really, it's not hard. What are the major expenses? You hit on it: housing and transport. So share housing and ditch expensive transport. I share rent and/or mooch housing. I went car-free a year ago and rely on my bicycle instead (this is a huge improvement for me; I wasn't using my car anyway since I hate driving so much). That's the two big expenses. Beyond that, just focus on elimating expenses. Other than spending on food and housing, I spent 2 dollars in the last 7 months. That means: no CD's, no cell phone, etc. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. Most people who frequent TL would NOT be happy with my lifestyle, because they have a lot more desire than I do. So you can do what it takes to acquire what you desire, or you can work on your desire.
I have a friend who lives on less than 4000 a year, and another friend who lives on about 2000 a year (he's an ex college professor that gives most of his money away to poor people).
Ah, and good to see you CoffeeToss! I quit BW without warning a few months back; it was doing me no good. Peace brotha!
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If you know what you want to do, go do it.
If you don't, go to school, figure it out there and meet with millions of other young adults unsure as well.
I think everything else is just pointless drivel trying to persuade the other party that there is another way based on their own personal experience.
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[B]On March 03 2011 17:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
Nothing wrong with a touch of cynicism. Sometimes it's just fun to argue devils advocate as well :D
Eh, one could argue my views are all personal experience anywho. I myself work in a job that has nothing to do with my degree, yet is something I enjoy. I have friends who went to school and ended up with 6 figure salaries and they are some of the most unhappy people I know due to the amount of stress/intensity of their schedule. At the same time I work with people on the other side of the spectrum who don't make nearly as much who are quite happy. It's all what you want and what you make of it. Correlation is not always causation.
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On March 03 2011 17:45 gork84 wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On March 03 2011 17:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Cynicism, but good guess ;D!
Can you blame the obsession whatsoever? I think people focus too much on happiness without considering the path is required to ensure a certain level of happiness? I think a higher education ensures this happiness or possibility. No reason why you can't get a degree then take a blue-collar job. You'll have the credentials on top of that.
Yes it still does by the way. Not sure what civilization you are living within, but a degree means finding and keeping a job will be much easier than one who doesn't have one. Might want to save that statement for a few more decades.
Nothing wrong with a touch of cynicism. Sometimes it's just fun to argue devils advocate as well :D Eh, one could argue my views are all personal experience anywho. I myself work in a job that has nothing to do with my degree, yet is something I enjoy. I have friends who went to school and ended up with 6 figure salaries and they are some of the most unhappy people I know due to the amount of stress/intensity of their schedule. At the same time I work with people on the other side of the spectrum who don't make nearly as much who are quite happy. It's all what you want and what you make of it. Correlation is not always causation.
I'm a catholic and throw holy water of perceived truth at you D:< !
Ask those guys working 6-figure salaries if they regret ever cementing their safety of all financial worry and of the relief of getting a good higher education.
Even then, I'll scream anecdotal.
I already touched upon happiness and standards. It's almost irrelevant with diplomas because those are not the goals and the OP misguides the whole idea.
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I hear you on quitting Ink, I cut back too, but I still play a few games a week for fun ^^
On March 03 2011 17:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
The average high school diploma holder without any college earns far less over his/her lifetime than the average bachelor's degree holder here in the U.S. at least. The difference in annual salary is the difference between living on the border of poverty (particularly if you have dependents) and living a relatively comfortable middle class lifestyle.
The counter argument to this statistic is that the majority of people who get a college degree already come from affluent middle class backgrounds, network with their peers at college and with their parents networks, and propagate the cycle.
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16986 Posts
There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872
University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
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Other than spending on food and housing, I spent 2 dollars in the last 7 months. That means: no CD's, no cell phone, etc. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.
So let's see what you've been given free:
Internet
Electricity
Water
Telephone
Self hygiene (toothbrush/toothpaste/shampoo/soap/detergent)
Food/room hygiene (dishwashing detergent/scrubber/mop/broom/garbage bags/tissues/toilet paper)
Appliances (stove/microwave/washing machine/dryer)
Clothes (even thrift store clothes cost money)
And if you're telling me that you didn't spend a single cent on any of those, then I must wonder what you and your dwelling must look like. Fact of the matter is, USA isn't socialist; someone is paying for all of those.
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Trap's point is worth consideration:
On March 03 2011 17:34 Trap wrote:
Hah, NPR just did a program on this topic which I listened to while driving home tonight (http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/03/02/should-everybody-go-to-college). Their topic was focused on "does college really prepare people for jobs / later goals in life" but it did touch on a couple of your points. As someone who always preferred learning-by-doing to learning-by-lecture, I disliked large parts of my secondary and college education because of the big disconnect between college classroom/dorm life and professional life; I really just wanted to go do stuff instead of learn all day, but sadly a high school education in the US is pretty much useless and there isn't a good alternative besides going to college. I ended up going the route of least resistance and got my CS degree at an ivy which did prepare me pretty well, but it was an overpriced and inefficient use of 4 years.
A significant problem with conventional schooling is that it abstracts the learning. One is sealed off from the subject one is studying, learning about it abstractly. And how successful schooling is: it takes, apparently, close to a quarter of the average person's lifespan just to become prepared for "the real world."
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Really depends whether or not you can afford schooling, how much the amenities (fun) of school you would enjoy, and how much you like increased future wages.
Up to you though.
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On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow..
The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea.
In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor.
I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though.
And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview.
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What job are you trying to get, OP?
Unless you have a ridiculous amount of experience with it already, you're not going to be able to compete with those who have a college degree, as employees infer from a degree (either rightfully so or not) that they're going to be more qualified than you at the job, because they've received more education surrounding the field they're going into.
That piece of paper is really important, especially in America, regardless of how much bullshit you had to go through to get it.
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College is only worthwhile if you're studying something that begets the term 'higher education'. A vast majority of degrees offered by schools in the U.S. don't grant any desirable (to a typical employer) knowledge or expand a student's skillset in any particular way.
That said - if you're pursuing math, engineering, chemistry, biology, physics, economics, accounting, law, medicine or computer science (beyond a bachelor's) or a handful of other subjects, then yeah, go to college. That's where you have to go to learn more about that field.
If you're just looking for a job, a 2-year business degree will get you that 9 to 5 fix.
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I worked as a freshman RA for three years and yes, I can confirm that a lot of people go to college out of obligation to parents without a clue of what, exactly, they want out of life.
On the other hand, what 18-year-old really knows what they want out of life? Few do.
This catches up to most people in their second year. It's so common that many university's call it "the sophomore slump" characterized by questioning yourself, doubt on major, and growing up a bit more and discovering what you really want.
Growing up...now THERE'S the key phrase...
No matter what you do, you need to grow up. This means becoming completely self-sustaining, independent, and paving your own way for what you wish to accomplish. Whether you decided to go to college or not, you're going to need to grow up either way.
Another way I look at college is like "the real world - light". I wouldn't consider classroom, homework, and job routines close to what you find in "the real world", but you definitely get a flavor for what to expect when you get out. You can still make decisions that echo through your future (like credit card debt or legal troubles), but you don't have, say, a family and kids to care for while you're living what you think is life. Do you need time to figure yourself out? Yes. Can you do it in college just as easily as in the real world? Yes. You go to college to advance yourself academically, but if in the process you find your passion and you could just as easily do it without a degree, then hasn't college served its purpose?
In closing, if you can go to college, do it. It's a privilege that isn't commonly enjoyed on a global scale. If you decide to go be prepared to advance yourself personally and academically. If you decide not to go to college - do the same thing. Part of growing up is realizing that you're always growing and always learning. You don't need a degree to teach you that, but I could list a bunch of professors that helped me on my way.
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Here's my take on things.
It truly depends on what you want to do with your life. Certain career paths pretty much REQUIRE a college degree. One example is engineering (what I am studying). Another is law, or medicine, or many other scientific fields. There is too much to learn to simply learn on the job. I work in a biomedical research lab in my spare time for some extra money. I often notice that I am falling behind on the basic knowledge of what we are doing when compared to another undergrad in the lab who is actually studying that material in the classroom. Thats not to say I'm not trying to learn, but she has a much better grasp of it than I do.
For certain, for other professions out there the degree is more symbolic than anything. But there are alot that require college.
Another way I look at college is like "the real world - light". I wouldn't consider classroom, homework, and job routines close to what you find in "the real world", but you definitely get a flavor for what to expect when you get out. You can still make decisions that echo through your future (like credit card debt or legal troubles), but you don't have, say, a family and kids to care for while you're living what you think is life. Do you need time to figure yourself out? Yes. Can you do it in college just as easily as in the real world? Yes. You go to college to advance yourself academically, but if in the process you find your passion and you could just as easily do it without a degree, then hasn't college served its purpose?
This is 100% spot on. College gives you the perfect opportunity to kind of "ease" yourself into the real world. I would elaborate on this, but I think Servius_Fulvius said it perfectly.
I'd contend that "putting up with" a college education for the sake of obtaining more wealth is a poor reason to go to college. So many people mistakenly believe that money is the key to freedom, but addiction to money and things is the opposite of freedom. It is far easier to become liberated by desiring less.
OP, I feel like many people, including myself, go to college not for the wealth (I have absolutely no desire to be "rich"), but to be able to be qualified for the job I want. Also, colleges can give you great connections to recruiters in the workforce, connections that you would have troubles finding elsewhere. I recently accepted an internship position for the summer (which I am extremely excited for!) that I would have never been able to get without attending college.
Besides, there are tons of fun experiences to be had at college. It is the last time in your life where you can have an excuse to act like an immature kid from time to time 
I agree college is not for everyone, many people simply have nothing to gain from it. However, I think it is the perfect thing for people who are either looking into math/science/law/engineering/etc. OR for people who are simply looking to explore their options!
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The answer to the thread title is (drumroll) yes! The only people who should avoid college are the dumb, lazy, or poor. It makes you a well rounded person (if you do it right) and as you joked about earlier in the thread, it does prepare you for the real world. Although, if one wants to skip college, I'm sure the world will be much much more real for that person. Struggling to do everything and having wildlife in your apartment all the time is about as real as it gets.
The exceptions to this rule are few and far between. My job freakin' owns and I wouldn't have gotten it without my degree. College is never a waste of time if you know what you're doing and actually care.
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If you don't have anything better to do, why not? It can help you get things sorted out or at least eliminate what you DON'T want to do for the rest of your life. Worst case scenario, you don't get anything educational-wise, but networked with a bunch of people that can help you for the rest of your life.
But, if you're already interested in a specific occupation that doesn't require a college degree, then go for it.
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Personally, I feel the greatest benefits of college/university have very little to do with what classes you take but rather the atmosphere you are exposed to and how it can affect you - if you let it.
University is a great opportunity to get outside of your comfort zone. It's a chance to meet and interact with types of people you may otherwise not be exposed to. It's a chance to have your biases challenged and be exposed to opinions you would not have considered. It's a way to get our of your small pond and become more self-aware.
In that sense, I would recommend it to almost anybody.
Obviously it's only one way to grow as a person - the same benefits can be achieved in other ways. But university provides one of the more obvious, reasonable, and accessible means to this end.
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Money doesn't tend to motivate people. Increase someone's paycheck by 10% and they're not going to be 10% more productive, or even an ounce more productive. Pride is the best motivator.
Definitely, definitely go to college. It's the best learning and social experience you'll ever have. You'll learn just as much about the world as you will about yourself. Contrary to popular belief, teenagers don't know everything.
Like flaccid said, it takes you out of your small pond and throws you into a giant lake. Its up to you whether you're going to sink or swim, and being motivated to get a good career and find a job you really enjoy is the best way to swim.
And, word of warning, if you end up picking a course of study because you felt obligated to through your parents, or you couldn't think of anything better, (like I did), you'll set yourself back even more than if you just joined the workforce. Pick something you love, no matter how much it pays. A 30-year career in a job you hate isn't worth any amount of money. Having said that, its not all-bad if you make mistakes in course study. My first degree was a bad choice, but I learned a lot about myself, improved my ability to interact socially by a factor of a billion. It taught me problem solving and analytical skills that I've applied constantly since.
Education is what you make of it. The amount you gain from it depends entirely on how much work you're willing to put in and I would even suggest paying for everything yourself (through loans etc., of course). Having it all paid for you just makes you lazy and complacent (like I was!). If you're paying for it yourself, then every moment you waste is your own decision. Again, pride is a good motivator.
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I would not argue that everyone should attend college. If you love working with cars, and know what you're doing, why not take a job right out of high school. If you are just good at coming up with ideas and selling them to people, why not jump right into starting your own business.
I would disagree though with the idea that you should not attend college if you don't have a specific purpose for it (Comp Sci, Nursing, etc.). The way this argument is given makes it sound like college (I use this word interchangeably with uni, cause there's not much difference in US; Idk about elsewhere) is solely about classroom learning. Nothing is further from the truth, in my mind. The value of college comes from interacting with people from all over the world, of all different cultures, religions, worldviews, and backgrounds, in order to broaden your own mind. It also acts as a transition step between high school, when your parents take care of everything still, and the 'real world', when you become responsible for everything. If you aren't getting those things out of college, go to a better college. If you have to go into debt for school, work harder and get a scholarship.
Having grown up in a home where affording food was often not possible, I have come to be content with the very basic necessities, and see no need for money beyond food, shelter, and clothing. Just because I see no need doesn't mean I don't desire more than the bare minimum-- I enjoy giving Christmas presents to my siblings, and having a computer, and occasionally buying Chinese food--but I don't want any tremendous amount of wealth. I have no plans to pursue a job that would pay in the 6 figures, and I am 'studying' something that really you don't need to a college degree for if you are good at it and self-motivated. I think the 'educational' system is a bit of a travesty, and very little real 'education' actually occurs in it. By your reasoning, it seems I should not be at college.
For the experience though, I am paying $60k a year (I use paying to including the earning of various scholarships as well as the actual jobs I work to provide for myself), and I would say it is totally worth it. If you have no good reason not to go to college, there's no reason you should miss out on the learning opportunity.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I don't think you are qualified to give advice in any way.
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Don't go unless you already know for sure what you degree you want and what job you want, and have a good plan of getting from A to B. For example, don't get a degree in music, go to graduate school for music, and then when it's all said and done be like "gee, I guess now I'll start looking around the country and see what jobs I can get with this degree". Know ahead of time that you want to work in that field, and that people will want to hire you because you have X degree.
For anther example, I know and work with people who went comp-sci because they "liked working with computers" only to realize way too late that they suck at or hate programming. So now they are sitting in a low-ish paid job as a fairly brainless sales/marketing rep with a comp-sci degree that isn't paying for itself. When if you are interested in computers, there are plenty of very high paying jobs you can get with just going for certs instead a degree, which are both cheaper and more directly related to on the job work. The same is true for many different fields though, depending on what you want to do it might be both cheaper and more effective if you go for specialized certifications instead of a degree.
Just plan ahead, it's way too much money to be half assed about. Like in starcraft, if you spend the money on it, you want it to AT LEAST break even later on in the game.
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On March 03 2011 17:02 gork84 wrote:I would say otherwise. I think most people go to college because they have yet to truly learn to think for themselves. It's just one more step along the stairs of "what you're supposed to do." You graduate, you go to college. I'm not against going to college, I'm actually far from it. Education is always a plus and the experience in something worthwhile if for no other reason than the friendships and relationships you forge that can follow you throughout your life. Plus, lots of hot chicks. Did I mention the hot chicks?
for the same reason but looked at in another way, thats actually why i go to college. im ignorant and i want to learn.
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To the OP~
I'm just confused to exactly where you live that 6000 USD a year can support you.
Okay, with careful budgeting, you might get by with the bare necessities, but what happens when you break a bone without medical insurance? Or work dries up in your immediate area? Or rent goes up? The contingencies in life are the problem, not the standard day by day.
Also, I don't necessarily see work as something that decreases my enjoyment of life, as you might perceive it to be. That's the entire point of finding work in an area you're interested in.
On March 04 2011 03:11 Treemonkeys wrote:
Don't go unless you already know for sure what you degree you want and what job you want, and have a good plan of getting from A to B. For example, don't get a degree in music, go to graduate school for music, and then when it's all said and done be like "gee, I guess now I'll start looking around the country and see what jobs I can get with this degree". Know ahead of time that you want to work in that field, and that people will want to hire you because you have X degree.
Disagree here too. There's nothing wrong with going to college with a job in mind afterwards, but there's nothing wrong with going to college without a job in mind. If your end goal is only money, sure, planning ahead for a job immediately after college is fine, but it's a little sad if your only goal is money.
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On March 03 2011 20:55 Hellhammer wrote:Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow.. The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea. In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor. I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though. And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the American public can't be effective engineers, doctors, physicists, chemists, or much else that actually requires tertiary education. We live in an economy where most jobs simply don't require a college degree. Think cashiers, factory workers, cleaners, garbage collectors, etc. Jobs which require advanced technical training (think plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, etc.) are better served by students coming from vocational schools rather than traditional colleges.
Think about it: would you rather have your car serviced by someone who spent 2 years in technical school and then working as an apprentice at a local shop, or by a communications major who, in the course of four years, learns virtually nothing that deals with cars? And before someone makes the point of "communications majors don't generally go into automotive repair," I'd like to contend that the majority of communications majors don't end up doing anything with their degree, and most will end up being baristas or cashiers or whatever. It would've saved them time and energy if they just got a job straight out of college instead of going into massive debt.
The country is graduating legions of communications majors from second rate schools, and it's in no one's best interest (except that of the schools, of course) for those students to do anything except drink five nights a week and occasionally show up to class. Of course you have the rare communications student who is intellectually curious and works to perfect his writing and rhetoric, but let's not delude ourselves here.
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17000 USD? O wow. I graduated from UofT debt-free  .
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The op makes much more sense if you understand that inky, while cool, is the biggest hippie you'll find on this site by far
but the thread title and the discussion following is a bit misleading. He's arguing for a more bohemian lifestyle or whatever you wanna call it, not that you can make bank by skipping school.
there's def good points if you consider that while reading
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On March 04 2011 04:13 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 20:55 Hellhammer wrote:On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce. Lol. I usually agree with the things you say, but wow.. The reason why so many companies hire foreign labor is exactly because of what you just said. If you want your country to get further and further behind, by all means. But trade schools and work force is absolutely the wrong idea. In fact, education in America is so poor and far behind, that if people don't go to university to learn how to correct their education system, America will not only stand alone as the stupidest developed country, but also the poorest, wealth wise, and also the most diverse among rich and poor. I don't know much about community colleges in America. I imagine they aren't that bad, just have a bad rap. But wow, no university? I don't mean to come on so strong, I would like to hear what you have to say though. And one more thing about entering the work force from high school education... While you CAN learn the skills on the job even better than in school (in some ways), in todays job market, that is impossible. You can not enter a job interview at any large scale company without formal education. They (as in well known companies you want to work for) will not even give you the time for an interview. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the American public can't be effective engineers, doctors, physicists, chemists, or much else that actually requires tertiary education. We live in an economy where most jobs simply don't require a college degree. Think cashiers, factory workers, cleaners, garbage collectors, etc. Jobs which require advanced technical training (think plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, etc.) are better served by students coming from vocational schools rather than traditional colleges. Think about it: would you rather have your car serviced by someone who spent 2 years in technical school and then working as an apprentice at a local shop, or by a communications major who, in the course of four years, learns virtually nothing that deals with cars? And before someone makes the point of "communications majors don't generally go into automotive repair," I'd like to contend that the majority of communications majors don't end up doing anything with their degree, and most will end up being baristas or cashiers or whatever. It would've saved them time and energy if they just got a job straight out of college instead of going into massive debt. The country is graduating legions of communications majors from second rate schools, and it's in no one's best interest (except that of the schools, of course) for those students to do anything except drink five nights a week and occasionally show up to class. Of course you have the rare communications student who is intellectually curious and works to perfect his writing and rhetoric, but let's not delude ourselves here.
I wasn't clear enough on my last point, and that's my fault. Let me explain:
While I don't think that trade schools or tech schools is a bad idea, I think the institutions are not very necessary. I actually went to a trade school myself out of high school, which I believe was a mistake, but for my own personal reasons. I do agree with you that if you want to hit the workforce right out of high school, or enter a tech school, so be it. But what I was disagreeing with is how few educated people there are already, and you suggest to even decrease that number more. In no way will I agree that there should be fewer students in Universities, but maybe more educated students going in to University.
What I mean is, if Joe the plumber is a smart cookie, and thinks University is important just because, University is important, he should follow your track; I hope that is common sense. But if Joe wants to create more opportunities for himself, he should attend University, and get a degree. A degree gives you so many options, and if down the line Joe were to injure his hand, or decide that plumbing isn't for him, he has the option to switch. Versus taking the alternative route and ends up hating his dead-end job, or is skill-less and can't do anything about his hand injury.
To my dismay though, when I left my 1st year of training to go to work, literally 99% of the theory and code I had learned was completely useless. This went for the 2nd and 3rd year too, yet I was expecting this at that point and didn't really care, I was only attending to get my certificate. Everything was learned on the job, and usually from your superior/ Journeyman. I could have skipped school completely, and actually been much more successful at my job because I wouldn't have any conflicting information in my head. Also to note, this wasn't just in my trade specifically, as all trades are like this. You can easily learn all the theory in a 2 month course, and never have to set foot inside a classroom again. All practical labs is 'work' anyway. Completely unnecessary, and a waste of time and money.
What I would like to address is at the high school level. The lack of teaching important subjects, and the lack of quality of teachers. While social and history is important, it has very little place in high school, and the practical real world. I know this is a bold statement, but this subject should be removed for engineering or advanced math courses. This sets students up with a lot more knowledge and teaches them to look at the world in a better view point. This will literally make our world smarter and more efficient.
The reason why US graduates useless students, in terms of practicality to the real world, is the way middle-high school sets them up for failure. Public schools are in such ruin, from the 70s to present, is the reason why America is in a very poor state. A lot of students don't even know what they want to study in post-secondary, even after a year or two of studying at said college. If public schools are fixed, this will set up proper 'tracking'. More people who want to be Joe the plumber, can be Joe the plumber, without regretting going to school. While at the same time, more people who thought they wanted to be a communications major wouldn't bother studying it in the first place, if the high schools were doing their job in the first place.
If public school systems were 'correct', in return colleges would be tenfold better and more efficient and Universities would never, ever, graduate a useless student. There would be no wrong direction a student could move to. I think Bill Gates says it best "We can not sustain an economy based on innovation unless we have citizens well educated in math, science, and engineering. If we fail at this, we won't be able to compete in the global economy."
Edit: facts: 123 million jobs will be high skilled, high paid by 2020. Only 50 million Americans will be qualified to preform those jobs. So how many cashiers do you think America needs 
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16986 Posts
To be fair, there is] a value in an education that has a strong focus on the liberal arts and the humanities; for example, a "classical" education provides experience with such topics as the nature of science (this could be taught as a philosophy course, for example), critical thinking (happens in ethics courses, classics courses, etc.), as well as courses which teach students how to think and approach learning (think foreign languages or literary critique). For the students who are passionate about learning those topics, such an education will do much more for them than anything else could - these students end up applying the skills they learned as, say, a religion major, by becoming effective lawyers, politicians, speakers, journalists, etc.
I know for a fact that many Chinese universities, which traditionally put immense emphasis on the natural sciences, physical sciences, and math, actually envy the American "liberal arts" model.
I'll agree with you in the sense that America is falling behind other countries in terms of research innovation in fields such as engineering, physics, chemistry, etc. However, there's no simple way to address that issue. America has an amazing public school system; I'd venture to say that all of its major state schools are among the best in the world, and provide tremendous opportunities to students. However, I don't think that most students should consider college simply the next step after high school. I wish that universities were more selective, and that only the best students could take advantage of the numerous opportunities that colleges offer. Quality over quantity, I guess.
While it'd be nice if our high schools actually prepared students for a good college experience, reform of that magnitude is probably never going to happen (especially today). With that being said, I'd rather see a restriction on who "gets" to go to college, with the rest of the students (who are either unwilling or unable to handle the hard work that goes with school) having to go directly into the work force, than a system that is more welcoming and churns our masses of useless communications majors.
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On March 04 2011 07:51 Hellhammer wrote:
All this stuff!
Better public schooling isn't going to help that much.
I went to a public magnet high school tailored to engineering - I took college level courses from the second half of my freshman year on and got credits for them. That first half-year was spent picking between Electrical and Computer engineering or Civil/Mechanical engineering studies. Junior and Senior year electives were either special topics courses taught by the -ridiculously- overqualified staff or afternoon classes at the community college our campus was adjacent to. Suffice to say, every single class in that school was a trial of the human soul. Kids who failed out - over 25% of our freshman class - went to normal high schools got straight A's and 4s or 5s on their AP exams. Electrical Engineering students got technicians' certificates on their way out because we were -required to-.
Out of the 28 students in my graduating class, all but 15 switched out of engineering after a year or two in college, some into extremely different things like Journalism, others into similarly difficult fields like Pharmacology or Physics. Out of those 15, I'd say only 5 really enjoy the engineering field they're still in - the other ten are being held ransom by their parents to finish their Bachelor's and get a job. I went from Engineering Science (an invite-only program at Penn State that requires a thesis and research participation, resulting in a 5-year bachelor's) to Industrial Engineering to Pre-law to Economics after two years just because each of those were enticing on their own and I've been beasting my way through the entire time.
My education was rock solid and I think it would have absolutely destroyed the average high school student. I have a hard time imagining a lesser degree of intensity when it comes to engineering studies - anything less than the meatgrinder that was my high school would be a forlorn tease for those interested in electronics or computer engineering, and it would -truly- set them up to fail in college unless engineering on the whole somehow gets massively easier. None of that stopped me, or many of my friends, from being curious, indecisive or eager to explore in college, and while I've embraced the education I received, that hasn't stopped around 40% of my extremely qualified class from going into 'useless' majors like communications.
I think what sets people up to fail isn't their high school's preparatory efforts but the common belief that university is the 'next step' after college. I've met many, many people who would be more suited to the work that being a trade school student lends toward, and a surprising amount of others who are pursuing staggeringly hard sciences degrees only to stop after attaining their bachelor's and teach high school chemistry or something else droll. Far above either of these numbers are the people who -shouldn't fucking be in college-. I'm 100% with Empyrean - many majors are there for you to show up to school on rare occasions, drink all week and live a luxurious manchild's life for four years - only, you have to pay a shitload for it, and nothing you've 'learned' will help you make that money back. Those who are truly interested in a subject will find a place to apply it, but the majority - those that chose it 'just because' - aren't going to see value.
Alas, college in our country, much like prison, is a business, so we'll never see useless routes of study expunged or the social dogma that 'university > community college & trade school' washed away.
@Empyrean - I've noticed that an astounding majority of liberal arts classes possess a curriculum reminiscent of an extremely focused history class. In two and a half years of college, I've only had two such classes wherein the professor actually sought to improve our writing or expressive ability as well as helping us identify the nuance in subject material. Same professor, actually. What are your thoughts on this?
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Unless you have a valuable skill or talent already, college is a must. The money and jobs that a college grad will get are 2x better than a non-grad.
There are plenty of articles that cite a college degree is useless due to the debt burden and lack of employment prospects. I call BULLSHIT on all of those articles.
1. DO NOT MAJOR IN LIBERAL ARTS
You can major in liberal arts if your school is nationally recognized and ranked. Only major in liberal arts if you plan to pursue a graduate degree or lawschool/medschool. Double majoring is a great way to study your passion but combine it with something practical. No company visits the liberal art school to recruit, they aim for the business school or engineering school. If you want to rake up debt and rely on your Asian American Studies degree then don't hold your breath if companies don't seek you out during recruiting season.
2. DO NOT TAKE CLASSES ABROAD
Only go abroad if you have the available funds and do not have to take out a student loan. There are people who take out loans to go abroad and complain about their debt load and lack of job offers. Here is a quick tip! If you go abroad during the wrong time, you can not apply for internships and therefore hurt your future employment opportunities.
3. A COLLEGE GRAD WILL OUT EARN A NON-COLLEGE GRAD
Starting salary for a recent grad is usually $55,000 + $4500 signing bonus + $8000 cash bonus = $67,500. (mid-end example) Find me a job that does not require a college degree and offers a new employee that amount. Its impossible to find! This example does not include the fact that your career trajectory is unlimited.
Unless you are amazing at stock picking and join a firm as a trader, then you will never out earn a college grad.
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The only reason to take inky's advice is if you are perfectly content living off of other's charity and kindness and expect that absolutely nothing will ever go wrong in your life. Education, whether it's from a technical/vocational school, 4 year degree, professional degrees (nursing, dental hygiene, etc), or even learning in the school of hard knocks (real estate, owning your own business, etc) are all far better options than what inky is proposing. If you don't want to go to college, that's fine, but get a mentor, enter an apprenticeship, learn sales and support yourself.
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Can you live a meaningful life without a college degree? By all means yes! But seriously how easy do think it will be to attain a fulfilling life with a college degree. Money is going to be an issue whether you like it or not, so going without a degree is going to cause you some hassle no matter how much you try to beautify the abstract nonconformist-ish thought of not going to college solely because it is not a necessity.
Plus going to college just to come out with a nice job to earn good money is the wrong way to think about college in the first place.
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On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
Exactly. The united states has become a "race to the top". With all of my intelligent friends going into biomedical engineering, I'm left to wonder who will do the "lowly" job of mechanic or plumber.
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Empyrean says a lot here that I agree with. He notes that a lot of people are coming out of college with economically useless degrees (his example is communications, and we could add plenty more). These are economically useless not only because you likely won't make much money with such degrees, but also because the economy just can't absorb so many people with useless degrees. They end up as clerical workers or cashiers. It's a silly arrangement.
Empyrean also gets at a somewhat elitist idea that I agree with: the colleges should be way more selective. From my experience and an academic standpoint, most of my class mates had no business being in college. They were shallow and uninterested and unwilling to engage with the subject matter. A lot of those students, probably most of them, were in school for the piece of paper and the increased income it is supposed to bring. But the result is that education is ridiculously watered down for the people who actually might excel academically.
In other words, a lot less people should be in college. They will never gain useful skills to apply in the work world, and they don't really care about a classical education, which is indeed a worthwhile thing to pursue (and which can largely be had independent of an education institution).
But, for absurd reasons, pay is linked with educational achievement (a degree), not practical competence. The fact is this: most jobs really have nothing to do with college education (even if you are in a specialized technical field in college, you likely have to take a lot of classes that have nothing to do with your field just to get the degree). This is what Empyrean didn't say, but I will: We should do more to ensure reasonable and more equitable pay for all workers, and reduce the academic requirements for jobs that really have nothing to do with academic achievement, and then leave colleges for the training of the intellectual class.
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16986 Posts
On March 04 2011 08:47 maahes wrote:
@Empyrean - I've noticed that an astounding majority of liberal arts classes possess a curriculum reminiscent of an extremely focused history class. In two and a half years of college, I've only had two such classes wherein the professor actually sought to improve our writing or expressive ability as well as helping us identify the nuance in subject material. Same professor, actually. What are your thoughts on this?
You might've just been extremely unlucky. I've had history classes in which the professor would assign readings (usually a book or series of journal articles), and in the following week, invite the authors of the readings to class to defend his work. In virtually all of my humanities classes, we were simply expected to read and write a lot :/ ... there's not really hand holding in terms of "let's work on your writing," but the class was structured around discussion, and you generally had to defend yourself against other students or the professor.
On March 04 2011 10:17 itzme_petey wrote:
3. A COLLEGE GRAD WILL OUT EARN A NON-COLLEGE GRAD
Starting salary for a recent grad is usually $55,000 + $4500 signing bonus + $8000 cash bonus = $67,500. (mid-end example) Find me a job that does not require a college degree and offers a new employee that amount. Its impossible to find! This example does not include the fact that your career trajectory is unlimited.
Unless you are amazing at stock picking and join a firm as a trader, then you will never out earn a college grad.
I highly doubt the median starting salary for a recent college graduate is 55k. Maybe for engineers or computer scientists, but certainly not for all graduates.
I honestly don't think the ROI of a college degree is worth it except in cases such as majors in computer science, engineering, etc. Not only do you pay the actual cost of tuition, etc., but you also pay for opportunity cost of four years of your life when you could be 1) making actual money, 2) learning an applicable skill, and 3) working in the real world and expanding your network of contacts.
Unless you're an exceptional student at a major public university or a select handful of private schools, I honestly don't consider college worth it. Especially with a music degree or whatever.
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On March 04 2011 15:17 Empyrean wrote:
Unless you're an exceptional student at a major public university or a select handful of private schools, I honestly don't consider college worth it. Especially with a music degree or whatever.
Exactly. I'll go to a major university, get a computer science/engineering degree. And probably make a mean of 55k out of school. But bob, who goes to Fresno state university, and gets a degree in South East Asian culture probably would have been better working their way up the food chain in a "worse" job. All too often do I see at SAT prep places incredibly overqualified individuals teaching courses.
Stanford Masters graduates in art.
English Majors from Colombia.
Journalism Majors from Northwestern...
And sure, only major in engineering? So everyone should major in engineering?
The big thing I take issue with is that your'e saying that you CAN't outearn a college grad. Sure, it helps, but once you're in the workplace it's not terribly true. Sure, you need an engineering job to get into the field, but Bill Gates outearns you !!
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On March 04 2011 15:17 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 08:47 maahes wrote:
@Empyrean - I've noticed that an astounding majority of liberal arts classes possess a curriculum reminiscent of an extremely focused history class. In two and a half years of college, I've only had two such classes wherein the professor actually sought to improve our writing or expressive ability as well as helping us identify the nuance in subject material. Same professor, actually. What are your thoughts on this? You might've just been extremely unlucky. I've had history classes in which the professor would assign readings (usually a book or series of journal articles), and in the following week, invite the authors of the readings to class to defend his work. In virtually all of my humanities classes, we were simply expected to read and write a lot :/ ... there's not really hand holding in terms of "let's work on your writing," but the class was structured around discussion, and you generally had to defend yourself against other students or the professor. Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 10:17 itzme_petey wrote:
3. A COLLEGE GRAD WILL OUT EARN A NON-COLLEGE GRAD
Starting salary for a recent grad is usually $55,000 + $4500 signing bonus + $8000 cash bonus = $67,500. (mid-end example) Find me a job that does not require a college degree and offers a new employee that amount. Its impossible to find! This example does not include the fact that your career trajectory is unlimited.
Unless you are amazing at stock picking and join a firm as a trader, then you will never out earn a college grad. I highly doubt the median starting salary for a recent college graduate is 55k. Maybe for engineers or computer scientists, but certainly not for all graduates. I honestly don't think the ROI of a college degree is worth it except in cases such as majors in computer science, engineering, etc. Not only do you pay the actual cost of tuition, etc., but you also pay for opportunity cost of four years of your life when you could be 1) making actual money, 2) learning an applicable skill, and 3) working in the real world and expanding your network of contacts. Unless you're an exceptional student at a major public university or a select handful of private schools, I honestly don't consider college worth it. Especially with a music degree or whatever.
You're points are fairly debatable.
It really boils down to how much money you can expect to make directly out of high school, the potential for increases in pay salary from a job out of high school, the quality of the job that you work from there vs how much money you make out of college, how long / large to pay increases from a college job, and how much more you like your college job.
Frankly, I don't think the pay you get directly out of highschool and the potential for increases in salary are high enough to make up for the extra 4 years of work you get, as opposed to always (pretty much) having an increased pay salary for the rest of your working life because of having a degree (assuming you major in something that is practical in the working world [finance, accounting, engineering, etc etc].
Of course, there are certain cases where going to college will not make sense. IE: if you are Bill Gates and you have the potential for a ridiculous salary, don't go. Also, if you plan on dying soon, it might not be worth going to college. Also, if you have a very high discount rate, working right away might be the best for you.
Often, (put simply) you won't get jobs because you didn't go to college - one of the justifications behind further education is that you signal to employers that you are a more productive, higher ability worker because you applied yourself in college.
EDIT: however, if this is for a degree that isn't as applicable in the job market (see: music, probably psychology etc etc), then your points hold true in most circumstances.
EDIT 2: depending on what you major, starting salaries out of college tend to be far closer to the 40,000-45,000 range, unless you major in engineering / further your education beyond a bachelors degree. However, after an initial time period, pay salaries tend to go up quite a bit.
EDIT3: Not really targeting you in general Empyrean, I guess just stating my opinion on the value of a college degree.
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16986 Posts
On March 04 2011 15:17 Empyrean wrote:
Unless you're an exceptional student at a major public university or a select handful of private schools, I honestly don't consider college worth it.
On March 04 2011 15:26 Froadac wrote:
The big thing I take issue with is that your'e saying that you CAN't outearn a college grad.
Come again?
EDIT: I'm not saying you can't outearn a college graduate, I'm saying in many cases you will, but in certain cases you won't. I'm merely suggesting that people actually consider whether or not their specific course of study will result in more earning potential in the future. People seem to think that college automatically guarantees higher lifetime income, when that's untrue in many cases.
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Of course, there are certain cases where going to college will not make sense. IE: if you are Bill Gates and you have the potential for a ridiculous salary, don't go. Also, if you plan on dying soon, it might not be worth going to college. Also, if you have a very high discount rate, working right away might be the best for you.
Bill gates or other entrepenuers are outliers and are not the average case. Using them in an argument against college is like saying "Don't need to save for retirement, going to win lottery". People win the lottery all the time, chances you will are slim. Plan for the 99% chance of not having a great idea or invention, rather than bet on the 1% chance of success.
A high discount rate makes sense when you are already making $100k annually and are deciding to go to law school (terrible choice btw). However, just out of highschool, you will never have a job that pays more than $55k annually. Therefore, there is not a high discount rate in almost all cases.
Often, (put simply) you won't get jobs because you didn't go to college - one of the justifications behind further education is that you signal to employers that you are a more productive, higher ability worker because you applied yourself in college.
I'm reading this as, you have to go to college to get most/all decent jobs. The double negative threw me off. Is that what you meant here?
I highly doubt the median starting salary for a recent college graduate is 55k. Maybe for engineers or computer scientists, but certainly not for all graduates.
You're right, not all undergrads will make that much. Business grads will. To my point, do not graduate with a liberal arts degree alone, double major if you want to learn something you are passionate about and study something practical...
Mccombs School of Business (University of Texas)
BBA Class of 2009 $58,428
avg. salary: $52,502
avg. bonus: $5,926
http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/news/facts/#Average Salaries
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As others have stated, most people make their decision about college during their senior year of highschool (at least in the US educational system). Problem is that 99% of these young adults (myself being one of them) make the decision to go to college because its the norm and all your friends are doing it. Luckily for me, I got accepted to a very good school and left pretty much everything behind. Looking back at some of my old buddy's facebooks, turns out a vast majority of them are attending some mid-tier college for a bullshit major. Its almost sad tbh.
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On March 04 2011 10:17 itzme_petey wrote:
3. A COLLEGE GRAD WILL OUT EARN A NON-COLLEGE GRAD
Starting salary for a recent grad is usually $55,000 + $4500 signing bonus + $8000 cash bonus = $67,500. (mid-end example) Find me a job that does not require a college degree and offers a new employee that amount. Its impossible to find! This example does not include the fact that your career trajectory is unlimited.
Unless you are amazing at stock picking and join a firm as a trader, then you will never out earn a college grad.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jul/02/news/adna-sand2
I make $45 an hour. Take that degree and shove it.
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Each day, about 170 sandhogs laboring around the clock begin their workday with a rumbling, four-minute elevator trip straight down a narrow mine shaft to a metal mesh platform overlooking the blasted cavity they call the "bell out" area.
The work is strenuous, and it can be dangerous -- 24 sandhogs have died working on Water Tunnel No. 3. Accidents are a risk, and despite ventilation improvements, many sandhogs suffer some degree of the dust-related lung disease silicosis.
Richard Fitzsimmons, 46, business manager for the tunnel workers union Local 147, says about 80% of his sandhogs are eligible for workers' compensation upon retirement -- mostly because of respiratory problems.
For some, it's the camaraderie and the paycheck -- they are among the highest paid construction workers in the nation, earning about $100,000 in salary and benefits.
NY pay (adjust for living costs and you get roughly about 75-80k or less in annual real pay)
I more envious of the risks involved such as death or worse long term respiratory problems.. Maybe I'm envious of the worker's comp that is paid to me for getting sick. 100k in salary AND benefits is pretty easy to achieve after a few years with a college degree. Many people just see the base salary and judge a position on that. Add all the benefits and you can hit the 6 figures. Plus I like my schedule to be normal so I do not work night shifts or early morning stuff.
However, if you enjoy the job, then you have achieved what many others (even myself) seek. A high paying job that people enjoy doing. Congrats.
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The newspapers exaggerate everything. Using a respirator > silicosis. my shift is from 3pm to 11pm hardly around the clock. I sleep in till 1 some days :O
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On March 04 2011 08:14 Empyrean wrote:
To be fair, there is] a value in an education that has a strong focus on the liberal arts and the humanities; for example, a "classical" education provides experience with such topics as the nature of science (this could be taught as a philosophy course, for example), critical thinking (happens in ethics courses, classics courses, etc.), as well as courses which teach students how to think and approach learning (think foreign languages or literary critique). For the students who are passionate about learning those topics, such an education will do much more for them than anything else could - these students end up applying the skills they learned as, say, a religion major, by becoming effective lawyers, politicians, speakers, journalists, etc.
I agree, but is it worth the 200k + interest (which could easily balloon to half a million) in loans incurred?
Oh, and I disagree with your implicit assertion that the average university teaches critical thinking in its college curricula. But that's a discussion for another time and another thread.
The answer to the thread title is (drumroll) yes! The only people who should avoid college are the dumb, lazy, or poor.
This is so wrong as to be self-parodic. To be honest, college is ~life without responsibility~ for a good amount of students. I have more respect for the person who pursues a vocation out of high school than someone who burns hundreds of thousands of their parent's money to go "find what they want to do" and do it poorly to boot.
I'm really quite astounded at the number of people here who don't even address the monetary cost of college in their arguments. Its an investment. A good investment in some cases, but that doesn't mean there's no risk involved at all.
America has an amazing public school system; I'd venture to say that all of its major state schools are among the best in the world, and provide tremendous opportunities to students.
Oh dear, I do hope you're talking about higher education...
Alas, college in our country, much like prison, is a business, so we'll never see useless routes of study expunged or the social dogma that 'university > community college & trade school' washed away.
What do you think pays for your research equipment
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On March 03 2011 18:08 Empyrean wrote:There was a thread on this a while back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181872University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
Community college leaves you just as unprepared for real jobs as a 4 year university. Trade schools and working actual jobs (without a degree) are another matter entirely and here I have to agree with you.
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On March 06 2011 19:13 Sadistx wrote:Community college leaves you just as unprepared for real jobs as a 4 year university. Trade schools and working actual jobs (without a degree) are another matter entirely and here I have to agree with you.
But it's far cheaper than a 4 year university, so assuming the student is paying and stuff it's not going to set the person back as much financially.
Haven't read through the entire thread but some majors like Music, Film have to do with networking as much as the study, which I think is a neglected point, but I guess all of them aren't necessarily going to pursue careers in their major and even less likelihood of actual success in their career.
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EPT
