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Skrelt
Netherlands306 Posts
Or it is just that EG whas sick of the badluck they had in MLG with the Machine vs incontrol. Correct me if i am wrong, but teams like oGs, IM, TSL, Prime and TL all have more than 5 fairly good players right? witch would mean alot of teams out korea woudnt be able to compete here @ full force. The money will be epic and EG will have a bigger shot @ the pricepool this way (along with other teams ofc!) but it isnt how i would like to see it. I dont like it, lead the war tyler! | ||
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DND_Enkil
Sweden598 Posts
On February 24 2011 20:16 BlueFlames wrote: + Show Spoiler + I listened to sotg yesterday and tyler asked the same things. He got an answer and now he starts a thread on his teams website to ask the same thing again? Didnt you read the other thread and could imagine how this would end? And i really think the MODS should step up their game considering that this thread has morphed into a discussion with people infusing pure flame and pure hate. Noone gets banned for implying or even saying directly that eg, fnatic, incontrol or idra are working behind the scenes just to make a tournament they have a huge advantage in. Or other theories that imply that those rules are just there to give teamliquid a disadvantage. I love this website and i love the team and i will support them in any tournament there is. But what you guys are doing right now does not make you look good. If you want to lead this discussion in the open with the participation of YOUR (teams) community than this does not seem like a professional way to begin with, but it could work out as long as you and your moderating stuff make sure that it stays a discussion and not a bashthread with accusations that could not be more ridiculous. In my opinion you have a huge responsibilty to make this a real discussion. I DONT want to imply that Tyler or Nazghul themselves are doing anything else but leading a discussion, but as soon as they say something negative about the rules, the bandwagoning begins and it gets out of hand. I agree with your argument Tyler. This rule might not be the best way to go, because it could have negative effects on teams. Everything you said in your discussion yersterday on stog and in the op is also my concern. I would really like to see a different format for this league. Maybe they will change the rules after a few seasons. Maybe not. BUT you and Nazghul should try to discuss those things with the tournament organisers directly and in the backround. This thread and the thread before where Nazghul answered openly became mostly a thread for bashing everything about the new tournament that could be possibly bashed. Because some people seem to be thinking that its ok to take their words and turn them into the extreme. I really hope you can turn this thread around, because there are a lot of very good arguments against this rule. And even though i dont think this is the best way to go about the issue, i still think it could work as a discussion to collect good points and present them to the tournament organisation. If you check the early NASL details and NASL Q&A threads the issue was brought up by plenty of others before SotG even aired. Showing NASL that there is an opposition towards this rule might be the best way to make them change it. But yeah i agree that people accusing NASL or the people behind them for favorism before we even know who are invited is bad. And as most posters point out, this is not as simple as a rule that is punishing Team Liquid, frankly if it was i would be fine with it since apart from jinro my favorite team is Root... It is the deeper meaning behind it i do not like. Anyways, from the www.nasl.tv website under about nasl they say this: "Third, we will listen to our audience. The community never ceases to amaze us with its ingenuity and determination. We think if we keep you close, we can’t go wrong. And last of all, we must remember why we do this: for the love of the game. " So i hope the show this right away and change the rule. | ||
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
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JaQInTheBox
12 Posts
Basically Tyler is right. The one reason this rule might do anything worthwhile is the Collusion thing. And this can easily be solved by having play teammates on the first playdays and of course spreading them as much as possible. At SotG incontrol and i believe Idra said, that people could still help teammates by influencing results at the later playdays against players on other teams, but be honest: how? They can of course try to win to help a teammate that is competing for the same spot as their opponent, but that is what they should do anyways and is the grounding of every competetive tournament / league / whatever. And they can loose on purpose but I dont see a scenario where having your opponent win will help one of your teammates get a spot for the ro16 or remain a NASL player. Trying to get three people to tie for a spot also seems pretty unreasonable, because what can very well happen is simply both teammates dont get to play the playoffs, and the third player from another team is the only one getting any benefit from it. Just as an example, the german ESL Pro Series especially for WC3 (there has only been one season of SC2 in this very league format) has had similar problems. They also ran a league, everybody played everyone, the top 4 go to the offline playoffs. And of course there were teams with multiple players in the league. But they simply solved the problem with having teammates play on the first day and never had to bother with it again. Of course it is another game and the league was way smaller in terms of players and pricepool, but it shows you do not need to constrict the number of players per team. All in all, I think the idea to avaoid collusion is important and 100% necessary, but I don't agree with the way NASL tries to implement it. Then, Tylers arguments about diversity and accountability seem to be enough to show the negative parts of the rule already and i can completely follow his thoughts there, but I'd like to add another one ( or expand on a few points i guess ): The assumption to have 10 or more well run teams with good sponsors and a good management just seems a bit utopic for the western world of esports right now. Of course, if you look at SC1 in Korea, they had that many. But in the western world esports is becoming a bigger thing now, but it is not as big yet to attract sponsors that are not directly connected to esports. Plus, western esports is far more internatioal, leaving us mostley with sponsors that are interested in selling internationally. After all, it is very difficult for teams to attract enough sponsors and / or sponsors willing to spend enough money to really become a professional team. At the time, the teams that are able to provide a professional management, the possibility to travel to large events like the MLG or Dreamhack and may even be able to pay a little sallary are problably Mousesports, EG, TL and probably fnatic(?!), maybe dignitas as well. SK and MYM do have the infrastructure i think (also there have been problems with MYM in the past) but do not have a strong SC2 team yet. In all honesty, I cannot see this list expanding to much in the future. Now for players there are still differences between these teams: The sallary may differ? Maybe you dont get along well with your Teammates und Team A, but you are frriends with players of Team B? Team C may have some kind of teamhouse in Korea, making it much easier to do this trip to the GSL you always wanted to do? Then, on Team B there are mostley Americans while you live in Europe, making it harder to train with your teammates? These are all possible reasons why a player may choose on team over the other. The 5 Player per Team rule takes a large chunk away from that and intruduces a new, arbitrary factor: Can i play on this huge league on this team? Can I get a spot? And then, if the NASL will be this super huge thing (which i hope it will be), players will join less professional teams, with teammates they may or maynot like, is not offering the possibility to go to Korea or whatever else. The point is, this will not help smaller teams as much as NASL thinks it will, because becoming a one of the big players in esports is much more than having good people on your team. Thats my take on it, became quit a wall of text and the last part is probably a little sloppy, but hey, I m getting tiered here. It just seems very unfair against larger teams. Also, I cant see esports growing because of this rule. And the main reason for its implementation, collusion, is just simply not a reason at all. After all, I think the NASL is a great thing. Its a big opportunity for western esports. I would just like them to be big in every regard, without stupid rules the community will fight about for the rest of existance. Like extended series. Still, keep up the great work @ NASL, i m looking forward to the first season -.- | ||
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
In Korea, I'm sure KESPA exerts some control, arguably too much, so that they don't end up with a Yankees team. (American Baseball reference) Since they can't do either, why is it unreasonable for them to exert some way to make sure that the regular/ladder part of a season has a large variety of teams*? It even encourages team leagues. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:50 Daigomi wrote: I think this accusation is unfair. EG is the team most influenced by this limitation, since they are one of the teams with the best depth. If they wanted to give themselves an advantage, they would simply have no limitation and invite all their players. Haha :> Have they honestly got the best depth though? Idra is their main player, Demuslim is good, and the rest are just average and are regularly beaten by random people. I bet if this wasn't an invitational only Idra and Demuslim would qualify. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
One obvious point that I don't think was stressed enough on SotG or in the OP here is that this rule will necessarily prevent NASL from hosting the best 50 players in the world. Geoff made the argument that there are no other teams but Liquid` with a solid 6th man, but I see every 6th and 7th man on the more established non-Korean teams as at least capable of proving himself by playing in NASL. Now that guy doesn't have a shot at all. And what about the Korean teams? I feel like NASL almost presumed, when crafting this rule, that they would not be interested in participating. Each major Korean team has more than five guys who might be in the top 50 players in the world. We only need to look to OSL/MSL to see that leaving the number of players per team capped isn't tournament-breaking. | ||
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
There are plenty of players that are not in the top 50 that will make it into this "star league". If they really want the best 50 players they need to suck it up and admit they were wrong and be men about it. Listen to the community and adjust their ruling. I think upping the security deposit to $500 is an acceptable compromise to allow the best of the best to play ensuring no funny business | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
EDIT: Okay, so what I said was misconstrued so I'll reiterate it again in a more understandable fashion. I believe in the idea that tournaments are supposed to show who the best players are, which should be their ultimate goal. Allowing people to get easier paths in or barring top players in favor of lesser players makes a tournament "worthless" in terms of attaining that goal. It just comes down to what you look for in the winner of a major NA tourney -- the best player, or the best player who was allowed to compete due to unfortunately planned out rules.[/QUOTE] Tournaments are supposed to show the best player on that day, but leagues are supposed to show continued competition between mainstay factions which have a player following. I totally agree with the goal of Fostering a team environment in SC2... particularly in the west as its what mainstream sporting enthusiasts are used to. Franchises and coaches and players. | ||
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Bleb
Croatia278 Posts
that being said I'm pretty sure they'll change that rule if you really want to make league more diverse you could have few wildcards or smthng... I'm writting jiberish cause I'm mad atm : ( | ||
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Hammurabio
152 Posts
On February 24 2011 10:01 ziggymondais wrote: EG: Machine, Idra, Incontrol, Demuslin, Axslav, LzGamer, Strifecro Will Incontrol be playing as well as running things? Conflict of interest? | ||
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
On February 25 2011 01:19 Hammurabio wrote: Will Incontrol be playing as well as running things? Conflict of interest? You read about his position in this league right? Its the same thing as saying that Artosis should not be allowed to play in the GSL. Its true that incontrol has a few more tasks in this project, but nothing that would allow him to influence the chances of him succeeding in the tournament. | ||
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BluePabs
United States317 Posts
The only argument that I agree with is that for this league to obtain the amount of success that it wants is to have the 50 best players possible compete. If this rule prohibits someone like haypro from competing because a lesser player from another team is allowed, that hurts the tournament. I understand the logic they used when coming up with the 5 person limit per team and 5 divisions. But I'll be a lot less likely tuning into to seeing a lesser known player play from a team than I would have been if someone like Haypro was playing. | ||
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
On February 25 2011 01:19 Hammurabio wrote: Will Incontrol be playing as well as running things? Conflict of interest? iNc doesn't run things, hes just the main caster. Like how Artosis doesn't run GSL yet tries to qualify. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On February 25 2011 01:47 Terrakin wrote: iNc doesn't run things, hes just the main caster. Like how Artosis doesn't run GSL yet tries to qualify. Isnt Inc a bit more than the "caster for the unimportant English stream"? Or is Artosis more involved in GSL/GOM (that I dont know of)? More on topic: I understand that they might fear that we get 1 powerhouse team which recruits all good people and rocks the league without competition. Like 10+ people. But there doesnt exist such a team atm. So just clarify that you look down upon such behaviour and that you will implement rules which prevents such things, if a team tries to do this. Also what about people who are on multiple teams (i.e. Torch @ ST & VT)? Can ST field 5 players, and can Torch play as a member of VT? So basically ST has 6 players in the league? At the moment we dont have a lot of players on multiple teams (because of brand/team/sponsor recognition) - but if it would be benefitial - why not create "mirror" teams with identical rosters/sponsors? You wouldnt even have to leave your original team (in regards of teamleagues) and can circumvent the system. Overall I dont like restrictions on what players can participate (5 players / team, you need a team) - it almost feels like a "pro gaming license" - kespaish to me. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 25 2011 02:13 Zocat wrote: Isnt Inc a bit more than the "caster for the unimportant English stream"? Or is Artosis more involved in GSL/GOM (that I dont know of)? GSL also has less to worry about because they actually had open tournaments for qualifiers. Even if you are worried Artosis was in a secret position of power the most he could have done was fix brackets. It's automatically going to add to the bad perception of NASL when you have arbitrary selections combined with players in the tournament also representing the league, regardless of what truly happens behind the scenes. Ultimately though, just because GSL does it doesn't mean much, it has been a very good thing for the GSL English stream that Artosis hasn't qualified since season one. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On February 25 2011 01:22 BlueFlames wrote: You read about his position in this league right? Its the same thing as saying that Artosis should not be allowed to play in the GSL. Its true that incontrol has a few more tasks in this project, but nothing that would allow him to influence the chances of him succeeding in the tournament. There's a less ambiguous hierarchy of command for GSL. At least I doubt on some Korean forum there's 3 guys contradicting each other on how the tournament operates, for example. From the limited amount of stuff we've heard from Russ I would imagine he relies greatly on Incontrol's input, as well as Xeris and whoever else. But we can all agree that a) Inc is very opinionated and b) he has quite a bit of say in how things go | ||
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After7days
Denmark52 Posts
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Loophole
United States867 Posts
This rule kind of feels like a bill of attainder targeting TeamLiquid specifically. | ||
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