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Agree so much with Tylers OP, copypaste my reply to the Q&A-thread:
The 5 player / team is a really bad rule imo punishing the best teams and basicly screwing players over. The three teams i can see this affecting the most, who is likely to have more than five players with the skill and dedication to enter and go past the first group stage, is Team Liquid (TLO, Ret, HuK, Jinro, HayPro and Tyler), EG (IdrA, AxSlav, DeMuslim, InControl, LZGames, Machine and possibly Grubby) and Root (Catz, Minigun, Kiwikaki, QXC, Slush and Drewbie).
Looking at this and comparing to your answer:
"We want to try to create as even a playing field as possible for teams. This is why we have allocated a maximum of 5. Some teams are not big enough to field five players, but we feel that it's a good idea to have a max of five to get as much diversity as possible."
The harm to diversity would be minimal since we are only talking about it affecting a few teams. I do not think the fans would ever agree on it being a good idea to refuse one of Roots players to enter simply because of diversity, and i feel really bad for whoever you will deny this possibility.
Next argument would be to avoid teamkills, i think any team would argue that it is better to have a teamkill than to have one player not even given the chance due to a rule. And teamkills add some extra drama to the tournament.
The third argument would be to avoid players working together/throwing games in the group stage. This would be the "biggest" reason that i can see, and yet not allowing two palyers in a team in the same grooup does not void this problem. It will always be a problem in group stages, players from different team could be firends, players could throw games to avoid future opponents, throw games to indirectly eliminate players they see as a big threat etc. And since you stated that it might be possible for a team to have 6 players in future leagues you know this aswell.
All in all, it just seems like a bad rule that adds very little positive to the tournament while bringing very much negative to it. Not even Korea have a sceen big enough to support 10 strong teams, and yet this is basicly what you are asking from the western scene from the start, forcing good players to leave a premiere team for a "lesser" one. This does not support a proffesional starcraft scene in any way, this works against it since it is unlikely to fully run a top-notch pro team (giving full eco support to players) with "only" five good players in it.
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As someone who watches way more starcraft than actually plays I'd like to think I have the viewpoint that NASL relishes. That of the fan and spectator, the people that that are supporting this massive entity. What it comes down to in the end for me is that I want to be entertained, and I want to see the best of the best duking it out in this tournament. If that means I have to watch 8 guys from one team knock each other out in the first round I have no problem whatsoever with that.
What I do have a problem with is when there are players playing that don't have the skill to duke it out with the best that make it in because we've already reached our quota of elite players. Imagine what GSL Code S would be like if they only allowed 5 players from every team to participate. It would be absolute garbage. Sure we'd see the best players in the world play, but they would be beating on the dredges of the starcraft 2 professional scene. The first few rounds wouldn't be worth watching because we would see a bunch of all ining foU and MVP players get stomped by the MCs and ImMVP's of the world, and no one wants to watch that.
If what the NASL is trying to create here is a league to showcase the best and brightest of the starcraft2 world I think they're making a mistake. I understand trying to make a great league, and creating accountability and all that jazz, but what is happening is the undermining of the quality of games by over regulating the whole tournament. The amount of teams able to field more than 5 players regardless is very low, so I doubt this will be a problem even without the rule.
All this being said I do believe they're trying to do the right thing, but they have to be open to the opinions and criticisms of the community and willing to accommodate to provide the best possible product to its viewers. : )
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Seriously don't understand what is stopping players from just forming "teams"
Tyler Qxc Minigun Slush to form a new team and have a makeshift website. I don't see how they can justify putting the 3rd or 4th best player from team ONE or vvv over these guys. Obviously no disrespect to both clans but these are household names with proven track record.
Artificial rules are bad because essentially Competitive starcraft is a one versus one game. Sure you have proleagues but those are like Davis Cup in Tennis. Multiple one versus one games ( or a few 2v2s but no one takes those seriously). You can't compare that to basketball because basketball is a 5v5 game not 1v1 x 5
And with this NASL, it is very unlikely that Liquid or any team in that matter will recruit more and more people. Especially Liquid because they give equal and fair treatment to all members and support them regardless of achievements.
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Yeah, I don't see why teams are so important. Or being a sponsored player for that matter.
Sometimes a tournament just needs an ActionJesus to spice things up. Especially when there will be entrance videos that let us get to know the players. Didn't they say on SotG that they wanted something comparable to American Idol? How will they get those videos if all the people who are allowed to play are in the master league, on a sponsored team?
Obviously, the majority of players are going to be on teams anyways. Looking at any recent, notable tournament, you can see that that is true. And sometimes, an amazing player who is looking to get on a really good team (and might not be settling for the small, barely-sponsored ones) needs to win or place very high a big tournament like the NASL to get those team's attention.
I say stop with all the red tape and save the team rules for team leagues.
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I guess NASL's reasoning is probably that the added value of one more player from the same team in terms of entertainment value/viewer pull is less than that of a potentially less skilled player from another less represented team, but I don't really see how having many players from the same team really diminishes the value of adding one more (just because there are five other liquid members already in a tournament wont make anyone less excited to see the sixth).
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Oh and to be honest, had this been an amateur league with little prize money and less known organizers, people would outrightly call this rule retarded.
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Talking about Russels "vision" about the future, with ten team of 5 players each, has he grounded this idea with the current team managers/leaders?
Like talked to Nazghul, Scoots, Catz, maybe korean team leaders etc. to see if it is even a realistic posibility? Meaning sponsors, training, 5 players enough to support one manager, building up an infrastructure around five pleyrs etc. Is this vision grounded with the community and the players or is it something he is trying to force on the community?
And before you say that this does not mean teams will be limited to 5 players realisticly they will, or at least to 5 proffesional players recieving eco support. Look at Counter-Strike teams, how many teams have more players on thier rooster (again, getting the eco support) than get to play?
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On February 24 2011 16:50 DND_Enkil wrote:
And before you say that this does not mean teams will be limited to 5 players realisticly they will, or at least to 5 proffesional players recieving eco support. Look at Counter-Strike teams, how many teams have more players on thier rooster (again, getting the eco support) than get to play?
isn't that surprising regarding that counter-strike is a 5vs5 team game!?
i don't understand the whole team thing at all from the NASL. first of all, who is the NASL that they now decide how clans should be managed, if a clan can and wants to support more then 5 players it should be totally up to them and their sponsors.
multiple players from 1 clan in 1 group wont cause any problems at all, as long as you shedule their matches against each other for the first playdays where everybody is still in the race.
it's a 1v1 not a team league, it should be all just about individual efforts and skill, not about what jacket a player wears.
and why does a player in an individual league has to be in a team? that makes even less sense, as long as he can pay the 250 bucks buy-in.
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On February 24 2011 17:15 bmg4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 16:50 DND_Enkil wrote:
And before you say that this does not mean teams will be limited to 5 players realisticly they will, or at least to 5 proffesional players recieving eco support. Look at Counter-Strike teams, how many teams have more players on thier rooster (again, getting the eco support) than get to play? isn't that surprising regarding that counter-strike is a 5vs5 team game!? i don't understand the whole team thing at all from the NASL. first of all, who is the NASL that they now decide how clans should be managed, if a clan can and wants to support more then 5 players it should be totally up to them and their sponsors.
Exactly my point, in a big way this will mean that it is not a good a idea for SC2 teams to have more than 5 strong players on thier team.
And NASL is the guys with the money...
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These artificial rules are retarded.
The scene seems to be saturated for the most part, just look at TL opens, very few unknown people past ro16. People get success and then get recruited by teams, artificially limiting that and trying to grow the scene will just come crashing down if the leagues ever stops. People want ESPORTS to be popular, but right now there isn't enough sponsors to make it work, most seem content with financing tournaments and you can't fail them for that, sponsoring a team is way bigger burden (depending on the contract), at least the way I imagine it and you're probably in for a long trip.
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And the most stupid thing is that on SOTG they said that if White-Ra doesn't have a team he can't join this league. WTF, seriously? Are you serious? Good thing that he recently made his own team with people who help him with his site if I am not mistaken.
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If we can't get rid of the team-requirement and 5-players-per-team rule, maybe a good compromise is to just have a really beefy relegation system--something like bottom 10 get bumped each season (I think it's bottom 4 right now which just seems way too small). That way we can make sure we get rid of the more-garbage players asap. If things settle down after the first few seasons the maybe drop the relegation down to bottom 5 or something. 4 seems too low.
Just a thought.
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On February 24 2011 11:43 Ribbon wrote:
What's to stop Tyler, TLO, and Haypro from leaving Team Liquid, forming "Team TTH" (Also sponsored by TLAF, at no cost to them!), playing in the NASL alongside HuK, Ret and Jinro, and rejoining Team Liquid later?
I posted this before listening to state of the game and learning they were doing exactly this.
I kind of like you, Tyler.
Edit: Why don't they just do what the GSL does? In the GSL, there's a notable difference between 3rd place of a group and 4th. If NASL makes a difference between 6th place in a 10-man group and 7th, it'd help a lot.
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You will never get the best players when you have people like white-ra etc and if you dont want a team? you should suffer for that?! and also getting in a team is not the most easy thing to do... all teams are alrdy packed and why would they want more players when its a 5man cap? that is just wrong....
or maybe you could just make your own team and pay some yourself? tho that dosent feel worth it att al...
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I agree entirely with Tyler, I'd very much like to see more commentary by big players on the NASL. There seems to be so many rules and restrictions that seem to add very little value, or actually hurt the tournament, and voicing concern seems to get you abused if you are just some unknown person.
Odd logic, considering, I an unknown person, am the likely consumer of their products. Surely a tournament that wants to make ESPORTS big in the west should be listening to their viewers. It doesn't even matter if everyone was wrong, and that teams were the best idea ever, if viewers don't like it, then it's not a good idea.
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Teams should have nothing to do with an indivdual tournament. I don't know why they muddied the waters with such a strange rule.
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On February 24 2011 19:13 faseman wrote:
Teams should have nothing to do with an indivdual tournament. I don't know why they muddied the waters with such a strange rule.
A million times this.
I really don't understand why they are choosing to make NASL a team league. Sure the individual will win the tournament, but having this 5 person per team rule and then saying people who are in the tournament have to be apart of a team is making this league a team league. There's no sugar-coating about it. NASL is a team league and it just feels wrong for it to be that way. I am almost positive just having the $250 deposit would be enough for legitimacy of a player showing up on time, I don't think a lot of people would be willing to just throw away $250 to not show up to a game. Heck you could probably even make it $400 if you felt like SC2 semi-pro and pro-gamers are that irresponsible.
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On February 24 2011 19:13 faseman wrote:
Teams should have nothing to do with an indivdual tournament. I don't know why they muddied the waters with such a strange rule.
This is probably the simplest/best way to put it.
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I listened to sotg yesterday and tyler asked the same things. He got an answer and now he starts a thread on his teams website to ask the same thing again? Didnt you read the other thread and could imagine how this would end? And i really think the MODS should step up their game considering that this thread has morphed into a discussion with people infusing pure flame and pure hate. Noone gets banned for implying or even saying directly that eg, fnatic, incontrol or idra are working behind the scenes just to make a tournament they have a huge advantage in. Or other theories that imply that those rules are just there to give teamliquid a disadvantage.
I love this website and i love the team and i will support them in any tournament there is. But what you guys are doing right now does not make you look good.
If you want to lead this discussion in the open with the participation of YOUR (teams) community than this does not seem like a professional way to begin with, but it could work out as long as you and your moderating stuff make sure that it stays a discussion and not a bashthread with accusations that could not be more ridiculous. In my opinion you have a huge responsibilty to make this a real discussion.
I DONT want to imply that Tyler or Nazghul themselves are doing anything else but leading a discussion, but as soon as they say something negative about the rules, the bandwagoning begins and it gets out of hand.
I agree with your argument Tyler. This rule might not be the best way to go, because it could have negative effects on teams. Everything you said in your discussion yersterday on stog and in the op is also my concern. I would really like to see a different format for this league. Maybe they will change the rules after a few seasons. Maybe not. BUT you and Nazghul should try to discuss those things with the tournament organisers directly and in the backround. This thread and the thread before where Nazghul answered openly became mostly a thread for bashing everything about the new tournament that could be possibly bashed. Because some people seem to be thinking that its ok to take their words and turn them into the extreme.
I really hope you can turn this thread around, because there are a lot of very good arguments against this rule. And even though i dont think this is the best way to go about the issue, i still think it could work as a discussion to collect good points and present them to the tournament organisation.
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From these 16 pages, what I can deduce from it is...
NASL needs to get their shit incontrol.
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EPT
