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On February 24 2011 09:30 Sky0 wrote:
I guess you guys don't even realize why they want players on teams. They want teams so they can control the league better and be more financially stable. Instead of dealing with individuals they will deal with the teams leaders so that more people are held accountable for one players actions. it just helps everything to run smoothly and more professionally, I could elaborate but i think you get the point.
Just give the individual players a lesser "security deposit" How many people actually want to oversleep or be BM in the tournament for the hell of it. If they want to though, they lose their 100 dollar safety deposit on themselves. Isn't that easier than punishing the whole team for 1 players BM or tardiness?
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On February 24 2011 09:31 Lobo2me wrote:
If you're a top 30 player and on a team that fits the criteria of being a team, you should get in. The players should be chosen before the teams play a role, not the other way around with sending invites to 10 teams and going "collect 5 good players each to play in the league".
As I understood in the SOTG interview, this may not be the case. If WhiteRa starts team duckload and 4 nobody's join it (hypothetically) they would see more game time then players in the 6+ positions on EG, Liquid, Mouz, Dignitas, etc. teams OR team duckload wouldn't get selected and one of the top players in the world would be excluded.
Am I understanding this correctly?
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On February 24 2011 09:24 RogueStatus wrote:
This whole NASL thing is getting old already! Some egos that have proved to be large to begin with, are now only growing. The power tripping that's going on seems to beexcessive for an event that is yet to be established or developed. It's a shame that it could be a real positive thing for the community and it's becoming a political, poplularity driven snob fest.
Yea, the kind of thing that could make idra and team EG some money at the expense of a possibly great league. Now it's clear why he left Korea to cash in on this.
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Hm. It seems I may be in the wrong on this topic. Hopefully the NASL team will address this in some way.
I concede my arguments. ^^
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South Africa4316 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:40 artoo[ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:24 RogueStatus wrote:
This whole NASL thing is getting old already! Some egos that have proved to be large to begin with, are now only growing. The power tripping that's going on seems to beexcessive for an event that is yet to be established or developed. It's a shame that it could be a real positive thing for the community and it's becoming a political, poplularity driven snob fest. Yea, the kind of thing that could make idra and team EG some money at the expense of a possibly great league. Now it's clear why he left Korea to cash in on this.
I think this accusation is unfair. EG is the team most influenced by this limitation, since they are one of the teams with the best depth. If they wanted to give themselves an advantage, they would simply have no limitation and invite all their players.
On February 24 2011 09:47 ScarletKnight wrote:
Hm. It seems I may be in the wrong on this topic. Hopefully the NASL team will address this in some way.
I concede my arguments. ^^
Haha :>
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On February 24 2011 09:40 artoo[ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:24 RogueStatus wrote:
This whole NASL thing is getting old already! Some egos that have proved to be large to begin with, are now only growing. The power tripping that's going on seems to beexcessive for an event that is yet to be established or developed. It's a shame that it could be a real positive thing for the community and it's becoming a political, poplularity driven snob fest. Yea, the kind of thing that could make idra and team EG some money at the expense of a possibly great league. Now it's clear why he left Korea to cash in on this.
Why be an ass to someone who cares enough about Esports to dedicate his life to being one of the best? You don't do this for the money, you do this because you enjoy the game, the competition and maybe the fame. He sees more opportunity over here to be able to enjoy more tournaments. Please stop degrading EG, they obviously want Esports to grow and flourish in the west.
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Okay, here are 10 SC2 teams (with their entire lineup):
Team Liquid: Jinro, TLO, Nazgul, Huk, Ret, Haypro, Tyler
Root: Catz, Drewbie, Kiwikaki, QXC, Minigun, Slush, ddoRo
EG: Machine, Idra, Incontrol, Demuslin, Axslav, LzGamer, Strifecro
Fnatic: LucifroN, IefNaij, Sen, Gretorp, Fenix, TT1, KawaiiRice
Empire: Aristeo, Beastyqt, Bly, Kas, DieStar, Forsen, Frum, ho8ot, KroLu, Lester, Noname, OutSide
Complexity: Antimage, CrunCher, Firezerg, RyanRushia, Ryze, Stalife, Suggy
Lazarus Gaming: Agh, Inka, Painuser, RaNgeD, Response, sycknesS, Zelniq
Mousesports: Dreiven, GhosTa, HasuObs, Kolll, MaNa, Morrow, Naama, Strelok
Millenium: Adelscott, KleeneX, LaLuSh, MoMaN, Stephano, Tarson, ToD
VT Gaming: Gix, Torch, Spades, Future, Pokebunny, Swu, desRow
I used either team websites or the SC2 team list Here on TL (not all of these teams are listed on the TL website).
Oh, and since it is listed on TL, here's one more team:
Duckload Gaming: White-Ra
After looking at the listing on TL there are 40 teams listed there, but some teams I have heard of are not on the list. I did not include any of the Korean teams.
But here's the rub, making the cut down to 50 and limiting the participants to 5 per team might be hard. And I'm not only just talking about making teams having to decide who to send; it's a matter of enough of the smaller teams being able to send someone to the Ro16 if they make it there. Yes, a travel allowance was mentioned, but where are they staying, how long are they staying, and if they are on a team from outside the US the ticket price is high.
Since we've not seen a breakdown of how much money is involved in each place, it might not be feasible for a smaller team to send someone to the Ro16 if there is no money prize in the 8-16 brackets.
NASL might have to scrap the 5 person team limit simply because it might be hard to get enough people with sponsored teams willing to foot their travel expenses.
Anyway, my .02
Cheers.
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incontroll used a very telling metaphor with the nba in state of the game this week. he compared his vision for starcraft leagues like the nba, you have to have financial backing a responsibility to be proffesional and other things. i think he used this reasoning to say that, like the draft picks in american football (i dont know about your other college sports) teams are encouraged to be equal, to make the league more exciting year on year, less dominated by a giant team.
but the nasl is still an indevidual league. huk isnt going to refuse to play tyler, and i dont honestly think they would throw a match if they were in the same group. if there was some system of demotion, like in code a, the people who do the worst have to requalify, then no matter how badly person x from team liquid is doing, they wouldnt throw a lose to person y, because it would harm their chances next season.
i also think some easy way of throwing off the "dead" weight is important for any league. maybe ive missed it in the league details but it seems no matter how badly a player does, there seems to be no clear cut way to remove them, and to get new blood in, something crucial for any sport; if they already have plans for this, surely this answers my first point and the team cap makes no sense from a competition stand point.
if they are just worried about too much TLAF-liquid'x then i for one, welcome our new team gaseous overlords
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On February 24 2011 09:37 x_plorer2 wrote:
As I understood in the SOTG interview, this may not be the case. If WhiteRa starts team duckload and 4 nobody's join it (hypothetically) they would see more game time then players in the 6+ positions on EG, Liquid, Mouz, Dignitas, etc. teams OR team duckload wouldn't get selected and one of the top players in the world would be excluded.
Am I understanding this correctly?
The teams are not being selected. The individuals are. So even if Team Duckload has white-ra and 4 other unknown people, it does not mean those 5 people make it into the league. The NASL is an individual league and is primarily invitational with 1 out of the 50 spots being open.
In regards to the general OP, I agree with Tyler's points. Having the number of people on a team allowed to enter restricted in an individual league is not something I've seen before in Starcraft E-Sports but I could be wrong. I've looked at how the GSL, OSL. TSL and MSL do things regarding seeds, open spots with qualifiers and the like and I agree with those models more then what the NASL has planned.
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I don't understand the hard focus on team in a individual league, i have seen people compare it with NBA and other things like that, but in reality a individual league is like a track race, or ski race, yes you have a team you train with, but in the end you fight for you own victories.
I like Tylers point with that you can have the players from the same team playing vs each-other first, after that, with the "top 50" players in the world playing these divisions should be so even that you cant drop a game to help your team mate out because then you would lose the chance to get to the next stages yourself.
( and btw sorry if this have been said befor, i dident read all the 13 pages )
i love the Nasl ide, but i think Tyler raises some good points here
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the bottom 15 get cut i think is what i read
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Further teams: FXO, mtw, ieS, MYM, ESC, aTn, PwR, Prae, srs, ONE, myR, NRG. GosuGamers. Then add the korean teams. The point being, it is not obvious that the five player limit will be a problem short term. There might be problems further ahead, but don't forget that though NASL is a big deal, ESL pumps out a lot more $ into esport competitions. In other words, don't base your predictions of the development of teams solely on the rules of NASL. It will be important, but probably not game changing.
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If worst comes to worst, any SC2 team that has more 5 players could split up into "Team Liquid A" and "Team Liquid B", so I don't see how the five-man limit necessarily hurts already established teams. It's the future that I'm more worried about.
The only part of the 5-man team like I don't like is the choice of the number 5. I understand that they chose 5 because it's convenient for their broadcasting schedule. But it makes no sense for an SC2 team.
It seems to me that an ideal SC2 team would need to have at least 6 people, at least 2 people per race, more if you include randoms. And in reality you'd want more than that, to cover alternates and provide greater training variety. Anything less than that means that at least one of your players won't have a practice partner for a matchup.
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Maybe it's that NASL organizers don't want our darling westerners to deal with more than 5 Koreans in the tournament.
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On February 24 2011 07:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 07:01 infinity2k9 wrote:On February 24 2011 06:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On February 24 2011 06:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 24 2011 06:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
Overall, I feel that nobody wins with your criticisms (you also didn't make any specific solutions. Should they just scrap a lot of what you suggested?). Players lose with these limitations, teams lose with these limitations, the league loses if they remove some or all forms of accountability or attempt to diversify the teams. Well, I'm just saying I don't understand the existence of these rules related to teams for an individual league. I think there are two rules, the first being one team can't have more than 5 people invited, and the second being that you must be on a team to participate. I bring up the 3 (kind of 4) issues that are surrounding these 2 rules and argue that the rules aren't helping the issues. So I'm just saying I still don't understand why they have these rules and I'm implying that they shouldn't have these rules. I'll agree that the idea of someone needs to be on a team in order to compete is silly. It's counter-productive for people who want to get into the professional-scene and it kind of portrays NASL as an elite league moreso than a convenient one for many North-American players. With the 250$ refundable tax, I agree that the need of being on a team is only showing little faith in the willingness of lone aspiring players. Am I making sense here or what? I think the 5 people invited is fine. My comparison here is going to be nit-picked and wrong and to be honest, I'm inviting you to do so. But I feel it's not different than having some players sit on the bench in a baseball match. It also creates more strategy for the team managers: we just recruited this new players, he's not very well-known and I'm confident in his ability to win, I'm going to send him in the NASL with two other aggressive Terrans and a conservative Protoss. My from your standpoint, it may seem unfair, but I think there are a lot of what ifs in there and to be honest, do the pros way out the cons or vice-versa? Why should there be any team strategy? It's not Proleague its a totally individual league with people trying to win prizes for themselves and no one else. So all top players LOVE eliminating their team mates? Sounds completely reasonable. If you're not on a team.
No... All top players LOVE winning, whether they play a teammate or not.
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IncontroL won't even get to play in his own league, heh.
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On February 24 2011 10:01 ziggymondais wrote:Okay, here are 10 SC2 teams (with their entire lineup): Team Liquid: Jinro, TLO, Nazgul, Huk, Ret, Haypro, Tyler Root: Catz, Drewbie, Kiwikaki, QXC, Minigun, Slush, ddoRo EG: Machine, Idra, Incontrol, Demuslin, Axslav, LzGamer, Strifecro Fnatic: LucifroN, IefNaij, Sen, Gretorp, Fenix, TT1, KawaiiRice Empire: Aristeo, Beastyqt, Bly, Kas, DieStar, Forsen, Frum, ho8ot, KroLu, Lester, Noname, OutSide Complexity: Antimage, CrunCher, Firezerg, RyanRushia, Ryze, Stalife, Suggy Lazarus Gaming: Agh, Inka, Painuser, RaNgeD, Response, sycknesS, Zelniq Mousesports: Dreiven, GhosTa, HasuObs, Kolll, MaNa, Morrow, Naama, Strelok Millenium: Adelscott, KleeneX, LaLuSh, MoMaN, Stephano, Tarson, ToD VT Gaming: Gix, Torch, Spades, Future, Pokebunny, Swu, desRow I used either team websites or the SC2 team list Here on TL (not all of these teams are listed on the TL website). Oh, and since it is listed on TL, here's one more team: Duckload Gaming: White-Ra Cheers.
Based on those lists, here are the players that may be cut off with a limit of 5. This is obviously just speculation based on my own opinion. I'm not trying to rate the players, I'm only using it as an example of what sort of talent will NASL be giving up by enforcing this rule:
TL: likely Haypro or Jinro if he focused exclusively on Korea
ROOT: 2 out of Catz, Slush, ddoro
EG: 3 out of Incontrol, StrifeCro, LzGamer, Grubby(!)
FNATIC: JF or Gretorp (Lucifron doesn't play sc2 actively anymore, right? If he does, then him too)
Millenium: Stephano, ToD
I mean sure, it doesn't LOOK like much to give up, but just think of the sort of players that will probably be filling up the brackets instead. You'll get nowhere near the same quality. I mean you might justify it if oGs, ST and IM participated with 5 players each, but I wouldn't hold my breath (and even if they did participate, the principle of "best players get a spot" would still apply better).
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What is Nasl definition of a team then? Maybe a teal like TL could eventually field a team of 20 players. Maybe we could see smaller teams be feeder teams for the bigger ones signing contracts for induvidual players for specific seasons.
Or start a B.team. Team liquor.
Maybe someone representing NASL can tell us what their definition of a team is and why they dont want teams to be succesfull.
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On February 24 2011 10:23 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 10:01 ziggymondais wrote:
EG: Machine, Idra, Incontrol, Demuslin, Axslav, LzGamer, Strifecro
EG: 3 out of Incontrol, StrifeCro, LzGamer, Grubby(!)
Weird, how did I miss Grubby =\
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On February 24 2011 06:15 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Diversity:You want to have a wide variety of teams participating so that this diversity can enhance story lines and the drama of the competition
Just a quick objection, Russ said on SotG, that NASL ideally had 10 teams with 5 players each and that this would be out of the question for season 1, but it stands as a longterm goal.
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EPT
