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On February 24 2011 08:53 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 08:42 ScarletKnight wrote:On February 24 2011 08:29 Talin wrote:
Liquid: Tyler, Huk, Jinro, Ret, TLO
I'm sorry, but in my own opinion, Haypro has done nothing to prove to be capable of winning a tournament of this caliber. While an excellent player he is, I myself don't believe that he could win an NASL as it stands considering the kind of competition we should see there. So realistically Liquid could front the 5 man limit and still have a favorite to win the whole thing in each division. Lets move on to the other teams now. I really don't think Liquid has more money than the other teams. In fact, I'm fairly sure EG has way more money than Liquid. Liquid didn't simply buy the top players, they made top players by spotting an opportunity in Korea, and through the dedication of their players. A money cap makes sense in certain sports where teams have a geographical advantage, but the cap was never intended to prevent teams from training the best players and using them.A money cap is simply not relevant in esports. All teams start on equal footing and the only advantage teams get is through their own skills. If EG has the most money then more power to them. They didn't get the money because they were based in New York rather than Green Bay, they got it because of their manager's skills. The money thing was more of an analogy. Liquid itself may not be richer but it definitely has more prestige to it than other teams out there which makes it more attractive to players looking for teams. That's more of what I was getting at. Any prestige Liquid has is prestige that they earned in a fair and open field. As I mention, the "cap" that they include in many professional sports is because certain teams have unfair advantages. New York has an advantage because they have a "guaranteed" 15,000,000 supporters. They didn't earn those 15,000,000 supporters. Liquid has no such advantage. You could try to argue that because of the forums, we have more supporters, but the team built these forums, just like Vile could build their own forums. Every advantage that Liquid hasm they earned in an equal playing field, and that's the way its supposed to be.
In my opinion you're not providing the proper amount of context, saying that the team built these forums is quite true, but the first draft of TL.net along with the initial Liquid` clan were very different from the teamliquid we know today. You have to keep in mind that the site thrived independantly of the team for (to my knowledge) most of it's excistence, this new site (largely considered a community hub, not a clan site) then went on to create the SC2 team.
Ofcourse the common factor that is Nazgul isn't neglible, and suffice to say he (probably along with quite a few others) are a better judge on this subject than i.
I would still say, that the team built the forums [insert 10ish years], then the forums built the team. (long after the first team had succumbed to oblivion). Regarding the fairness I can't say, but it's definately a huge advantage.
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On February 24 2011 08:18 ScarletKnight wrote:
While I agree with your argument on Haypro, he is indeed better than most players on other teams, it is his own perogative to be on Liquid and if he wants to participate in the NASL then maybe it's in his best interest to leave the team. Not because he doesn't deserve to be on Liquid mind you, but because for his career maybe it's better to be on a team where he can be "the guy" and not be seen as the 6th string odd man out. Again I take the analogy to real sports. A guy like Andrew Ladd of the Atlanta Thrashers played last year for the Chicago Blackhawks and won the Stanley Cup with them. He played on the 3rd line and was seen as not the best player on the team although he has tons of skill and didn't see much ice time throughout the season. He was traded to Atlanta over the off season and is now the captian of the team and getting more ice time. This has led to a career year in points and he is now widely more recognized for his skill and leadership. This could be a situation Haypro could be in if he were to switch teams. While I do not advocate it, or think he should, it's just something to think about.
Although realistically I don't see Jinro leaving his Code S place in the GSL to come to the US to compete here, so he may get a spot in the NASL anyway.
I don't see how letting a powerhouse team run wild is a good thing. It will do nothing to encourage competition between teams if one team holds everything. If Liquid wins everything the scene will stagnate and become boring as we see the same people winning again and again. Parity is something that is needed for a league to survive and stay interesting.
Look at how much Jinro improved when he joined TL-oGs. What would have happened if GSL had the 5-man rule? "Sure Jinro you can join us but we're massive and stacked so you'll probably never get a chance to play in the tournament" Why should he have to take that into consideration?
The case with Ladd isn't exactly analogous either because his major source of income was his salary, not which line he played with. (yes I know there are performance bonuses but these never eclipse salaries in dollar amounts)
If Haypro (to stick with the example) leaves his 5th/6th spot on Liquid for a top spot on Team AtlantaThrashers then a number of things still have to happen for him to qualify. Importantly - AtlantaThrashers has to be one of the teams who gets to compete in the NASL. If everybody's 6th player goes and joins a lesser team we'll still have top players not being able to enter simply because only 10 teams can enter (and arguably 5 are already going to be disproportionately stacked).
Next, he has to worry about sponsorship and management. While Jinro happily gets feedback from oGs without having to worry about working full-time, Haypro's Atlanta Thrashers might fold because there are only 2 names on the team and Intel wants to see its name in the ro32 4 or 5 times.
I just don't think its fair that top level players have to worry not only about being in the top 50 in the NASL, but being so in the context of whether or not their team gets selected and whether or not their selected team decides to play them.
Imagine how GSL would have gone if IM, ST, Liquid-oGs, and Prime could only send 5 players. We've seen dynasties happen in many sports without anyone complaining or losing interest in the sport as a whole. Even in SCBW there have been periods where teams dominate for consecutive years.
From a team sponsor's perspective - you want to add depth to your team and to your brand. The 5 player rule doesn't allow for that. "Hey Intel you can sponsor us but if we end up getting 5 really good players all of the other good players will possibly abandon ship and join your competitor's team because they want a chance to play and they're good enough to place on that other roster"
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I agree with everything tyler said, heres to hoping the NASL organizers can actually listen to the plea of not just the spectators but also the professionals like NoNy himself
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On February 24 2011 09:18 ptell wrote:
Can this rule even be enforced by NASL?
Tyler already mentioned in SOTG that TLAF-Liquid can technically "split" the team into two smaller teams (say Liquid-NA and Liquid-South Korea), hence circumventing the 5-player limit. In the end, it boils down to what constitutes a "team". White-ra might argue that Duckload is indeed a team with only one player.
If TLAF-Liquid does play hardball and split into two teams, what can NASL do? Talk to the lawyers?
I think that nasl would allow it. Otherwise it would be bad blood in this community ;P
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I think NASL's fixation with teams i just them trying to mimic the model set by professional sports. Whether that is a good or bad thing remains to be seen
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Yeah, last night on SOTG I thought you were being a bit harsh on something new, but now I am in the same boat as you.
I think Esports is too new to have 10-20 good sponsored teams. If they need accountability just lower what an individual has to have as his safety deposit to 50 or 100, that is still a big hit to someone that isn't on a team and I doubt anyone who is playing in such a big tournament wants to be late or break any rules.
Lone wolfs also make for good commentary. Someone who has a ton of skill but a team hasn't picked them up makes it more dramatic wondering what teams are trying to bring in that talent.
Also, saying just like basketball you have to team to play is ridiculous. This would be true if you were playing 4v4 3v3 or 2v2. 1v1 is a purely individual competition, the best of the best should play no matter what team they are on. Team kills do suck, but something should be worked out so they don't hit so early on in a tournament.
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On February 24 2011 09:15 ScarletKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 08:53 Daigomi wrote:On February 24 2011 08:42 ScarletKnight wrote:On February 24 2011 08:29 Talin wrote:On February 24 2011 08:18 ScarletKnight wrote:
Liquid: Tyler, Huk, Jinro, Ret, TLO
I'm sorry, but in my own opinion, Haypro has done nothing to prove to be capable of winning a tournament of this caliber. While an excellent player he is, I myself don't believe that he could win an NASL as it stands considering the kind of competition we should see there. So realistically Liquid could front the 5 man limit and still have a favorite to win the whole thing in each division. Lets move on to the other teams now. I really don't think Liquid has more money than the other teams. In fact, I'm fairly sure EG has way more money than Liquid. Liquid didn't simply buy the top players, they made top players by spotting an opportunity in Korea, and through the dedication of their players. A money cap makes sense in certain sports where teams have a geographical advantage, but the cap was never intended to prevent teams from training the best players and using them.A money cap is simply not relevant in esports. All teams start on equal footing and the only advantage teams get is through their own skills. If EG has the most money then more power to them. They didn't get the money because they were based in New York rather than Green Bay, they got it because of their manager's skills. The money thing was more of an analogy. Liquid itself may not be richer but it definitely has more prestige to it than other teams out there which makes it more attractive to players looking for teams. That's more of what I was getting at. Any prestige Liquid has is prestige that they earned in a fair and open field. As I mention, the "cap" that they include in many professional sports is because certain teams have unfair advantages. New York has an advantage because they have a "guaranteed" 15,000,000 supporters. They didn't earn those 15,000,000 supporters. Liquid has no such advantage. You could try to argue that because of the forums, we have more supporters, but the team built these forums, just like Vile could build their own forums. Every advantage that Liquid hasm they earned in an equal playing field, and that's the way its supposed to be. I'm sorry if I don't follow or am misinterpreting you here, but I don't believe it is on even ground as it stands right now. While I agree that from the beginning Liquid was on even ground to build itself up from the beginning, as of the present this site and the team has more support and a following than any other foreigner SC2 team. Liquid would have a "guaranteed" support base as of now based on these forums alone. They would be the odds on favorite (maybe not skills wise, but definitely fan support wise) of any match because of this website and these forums, regardless of the fact that the team and the site are not one in the same. And my point is that the advantage that Liquid has right now may be too much for some teams to overcome. Which is why the 5-man limit would help. Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:00 Talin wrote:
But it isn't in his best interest. Obviously there are more competitions than NASL, but for the sake of argument and principle let's assume otherwise - in that situation, there is no good decision for Haypro. If he stays on TL, he can't compete in the highest profile tournament. If he quits and joins another team, he will lose a (probably) great contract with TL as well as many other benefits necessary for his career to progress (practice partners etc). No matter what he decides, his career will take a step for the worse, because there is no way he can improve as much outside of TL as he can within it (+ the financial factor will kick in), and he can't improve in TL either because he can't play in the most important tournament on the planet. It's a lose-lose situation. I see your point. I'll concede that arguement to you. Show nested quote +Look, while I do appreciate with effort, every single analogy made in this topic was just bad, including that one. Instead of making superficial analogies with other sports disregarding all the essential differences, we should just focus on what's best for the actual Starcraft scene where, again, IT IS NOT ABOUT TEAMS. There isn't even a single team-based competition that is considered important right now (There was GCPL and that Machinima tournament that Liquid or Fnatic for example didn't even take seriously because they are irrelevant to the grand scheme of things).
Starcraft is an individual sport, if you want to make analogies, make analogies to individual sports. But I would prefer no analogies as analogies suck in general to be honest. =P I agree it is not about the teams themselves per-se but the argument is based around a team restriction so unfortunately the teams will be affected. That I believe was the root of this topic in the first place. And I'll lay off the analogies now ^_^ Show nested quote +Liquid doesn't win things, the players do. Competition between players is what drives Starcraft, not competition between teams. It's Ret that won the Assembly, not Liquid. It's Jinro that made it to back-to-back semifinals in GSL, not Liquid. And if Jinro and Ret have to play each other, it will be between Jinro and Ret, not a Liquid and Liquid.
Even in Korea that did eventually grow a team league competition and it became reasonably popular, a player achieves greatness only and ONLY by winning a Starleague (or a few), and all the legendary players are remembered for their performance in the individual leagues.
Besides, if you want a team-based competition, first of all the NASL format is wrong from the beginning because it's structured like an individual league, not a team league. Second of all, you need actual pro teams. If you expect teams to just become professional by limiting powerhouses like Liquid so the others can catch up, you're just screwing up the powerhouses that drive the scene forward. I mean, Root as it is (a kickass team) can't get decent sponsorship deals, how do you expect other teams which are not nearly as good to catch up? While I see your point, I addressed that in my other response above. The whole root of this issue is the fact that teams cannot send more than 5 players. And while it is in fact individuals creating the results, they are still associated with their team and representing their team. Jinro of TEAM LIQUID make back to back semi's. Ret of TEAM LIQUID won Assembly. Idra of EG won MLG DC. Huk of TEAM LIQUID won MLG Raleigh. And so on. I agree it's a problem that some players will not be able to go because of the team restrictions, but maybe this will create chances other players might not have had in the first place. Who knows? I'm willing to wait and find out. Again, I say Tyler made great points and I agree with most of them, I'm just playing Devils advocate here.
Even if we assume your statement about TL supporters being greater, I don't see how that factors into a tournament. Seahawks have some of the loudest fans in NFL, and yet they still suck. The only case in which fan support can equate to better standing is when support equates gain in income, like the Yankees, even then they are getting better players to complement their TEAM. But the structuring of this league is an individual one, so having better teammates doesn't affect the performance of the individual.
The root of the debate is on team restrictions, which should have no bearings on an individual based competition.
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On February 24 2011 09:20 Alur wrote:
In my opinion you're not providing the proper amount of context, saying that the team built these forums is quite true, but the first draft of TL.net along with the initial Liquid` clan were very different from the teamliquid we know today. You have to keep in mind that the site thrived independantly of the team for (to my knowledge) most of it's excistence, this new site (largely considered a community hub, not a clan site) then went on to create the SC2 team.
Ofcourse the common factor that is Nazgul isn't neglible, and suffice to say he (probably along with quite a few others) are a better judge on this subject than i.
I would still say, that the team built the forums [insert 10ish years], then the forums built the team. (long after the first team had succumbed to oblivion). Regarding the fairness I can't say, but it's definately a huge advantage.
Uhm yea the original TL.net basically used the teams name and fame to get people to come to our news/forum website. After that initial exposure it was the people from the community that built this site on and on and on. Then after that we used that to give a pro-team a shot in SC2. I think you got most of that right 
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This whole NASL thing is getting old already! Some egos that have proved to be large to begin with, are now only growing. The power tripping that's going on seems to beexcessive for an event that is yet to be established or developed. It's a shame that it could be a real positive thing for the community and it's becoming a political, poplularity driven snob fest.
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While I agree with the OP to a certain extent, I feel there are pieces to the puzzle still missing that are preventing us from seeing the whys in the decisions they have made thus far.
It seems to me that they (NASL) are trying to cultivate a more major league type atmosphere, similar to lets say the NFL or really any other Western competitive entertainment.
A regular season (the 9 week divisional play), Win your division (or top 2 as it seems in this case) = a spot in the playoffs. Wildcard week to fill out 5 of the six remaining spots + the open to allow anyone to be able to say they tried.
If this is what they are going for then I would argue that the rule will be needed at some point as they have stated their dream would be to have 10 teams with 5 players each, but with the league as new as it is I don't think there will be enough high end teams to field this.
Or could the rule simply be there to prevent the Korean mega teams with double digit rosters from sending hoards of top end talent to try and dominate.
So in closing the rule will probably be necessary at some point but maybe not yet. I don't want to say we shouldn't be trying to help make the league better with our criticisms, but I don't think we should get too defensive about it until all the details (how will the up down system work after the initial invite only season 1, is the league willing to expand to more divisions with fewer people per division if there is too much demand for more players but no more truly deserving teams, how interested will the Koreans be in this tournament) are out and in the open.
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What if you're a top 30 player but your team depth is such that they aren't selected to participate in the tournament? You have to join a better team, but not one that is so good so as to put you at risk of being number 5 or 6?
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I guess you guys don't even realize why they want players on teams. They want teams so they can control the league better and be more financially stable. Instead of dealing with individuals they will deal with the teams leaders so that more people are held accountable for one players actions. it just helps everything to run smoothly and more professionally, I could elaborate but i think you get the point.
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While I don't disagree with any of Tyler's points I don't think this needs to be a major point of contention. Yes the rule exists but even Liquid, I don't believe, has more than 5 of the top 50 foreigners in the world, and even so, it is absolutely nice to see some diversity, as even if a team has 5 men entered, the rule applies to everyone.
Its unfortunate for Liquid yes, but the rule does have backing points behind it, and anyone can throw "what ifs" around to argue their side but its largely useless. I guess it is what it is.
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On February 24 2011 09:27 x_plorer2 wrote:
What if you're a top 30 player but your team dept is such that they aren't selected to participate in the tournament? You have to join a better team, but not one that is so good so as to put you at risk of being number 5 or 6?
If you're a top 30 player and on a team that fits the criteria of being a team, you should get in. The players should be chosen before the teams play a role, not the other way around with sending invites to 10 teams and going "collect 5 good players each to play in the league".
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The big question in my eyes is how the participants are chosen. What is the criteria for selection? Most probably fame, in which case the five man limit is a hindrance in obtaining the fame of the liquid players. If accomplishments, I don't see the five-man limit as a problem. Ret/Jinro/Huk/TLO/? I say that with respect, I have much love for the TL-team. But if we're honest, those are the players from the team who've achieved top-50 results in SC2.
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So I think that the organizers probably aren't talking too much about one of the major reasons for this rule. One of the ways they are trying to make ESPORTS popular in the West is through an increased use of backstory and player storylines in their shows. My guess is, they want to really play up the team affiliations of players in making these storylines. They would be trying to bring teams into the individual event because they think that's the best way to make esports exciting to a new audience.
Of course, this is speculation, but I think it's the most probable thing.
If my speculation is correct - I think that the nasl rule deserves more sympathy than it's getting. I'm still not sure if it's worthwhile to exclude a couple players who might otherwise be qualified, but at least there's a good reason (ESPORTS).
Also - is this really a problem? Is Jinro planning on playing on US from Korea? Judging by GCPL play, the lag hurts a lot. If he stays focused on GSL, doesn't that leave only 5 Liquidians? Or am I miscounting? (Ofc I would love to see Jinro play, not saying he shouldn't, just thinking.)
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On February 24 2011 09:30 Sky0 wrote:
I guess you guys don't even realize why they want players on teams. They want teams so they can control the league better and be more financially stable. Instead of dealing with individuals they will deal with the teams leaders so that more people are held accountable for one players actions. it just helps everything to run smoothly and more professionally, I could elaborate but i think you get the point.
Forcing a player to be on a team and limiting the amount of players who represent a given team are two different things.
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you can have 5 players per team but GROUPINGS should be random...not fixed to avoid team kills..every man for them selves please.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:15 ScarletKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 08:53 Daigomi wrote:On February 24 2011 08:42 ScarletKnight wrote:On February 24 2011 08:29 Talin wrote:On February 24 2011 08:18 ScarletKnight wrote:
Liquid: Tyler, Huk, Jinro, Ret, TLO
I'm sorry, but in my own opinion, Haypro has done nothing to prove to be capable of winning a tournament of this caliber. While an excellent player he is, I myself don't believe that he could win an NASL as it stands considering the kind of competition we should see there. So realistically Liquid could front the 5 man limit and still have a favorite to win the whole thing in each division. Lets move on to the other teams now. I really don't think Liquid has more money than the other teams. In fact, I'm fairly sure EG has way more money than Liquid. Liquid didn't simply buy the top players, they made top players by spotting an opportunity in Korea, and through the dedication of their players. A money cap makes sense in certain sports where teams have a geographical advantage, but the cap was never intended to prevent teams from training the best players and using them.A money cap is simply not relevant in esports. All teams start on equal footing and the only advantage teams get is through their own skills. If EG has the most money then more power to them. They didn't get the money because they were based in New York rather than Green Bay, they got it because of their manager's skills. The money thing was more of an analogy. Liquid itself may not be richer but it definitely has more prestige to it than other teams out there which makes it more attractive to players looking for teams. That's more of what I was getting at. Any prestige Liquid has is prestige that they earned in a fair and open field. As I mention, the "cap" that they include in many professional sports is because certain teams have unfair advantages. New York has an advantage because they have a "guaranteed" 15,000,000 supporters. They didn't earn those 15,000,000 supporters. Liquid has no such advantage. You could try to argue that because of the forums, we have more supporters, but the team built these forums, just like Vile could build their own forums. Every advantage that Liquid hasm they earned in an equal playing field, and that's the way its supposed to be. I'm sorry if I don't follow or am misinterpreting you here, but I don't believe it is on even ground as it stands right now. While I agree that from the beginning Liquid was on even ground to build itself up from the beginning, as of the present this site and the team has more support and a following than any other foreigner SC2 team. Liquid would have a "guaranteed" support base as of now based on these forums alone. They would be the odds on favorite (maybe not skills wise, but definitely fan support wise) of any match because of this website and these forums, regardless of the fact that the team and the site are not one in the same. And my point is that the advantage that Liquid has right now may be too much for some teams to overcome. Which is why the 5-man limit would help.
The point is that Liquid earned its advantage by being the most consistent and dedicated team (both in terms of their play and the forums) over a long period of time. Blaming TL for that is like blaming a team for interacting with fans better than other teams. Any team could have done it, and can still do it, but it takes time and effort and TL was the only team willing to invest that and make it what it is. The fact that they now have a "big" advantage is of no consequence, that big advantage was earned fair and square. If you apply it to training, it would be like artificially preventing a team's players from playing at their best because the players' hard work made them too good. If the advantage is earned fairly, then other teams must just do their best to catch up. EG, for example, seem to have very good business connections which they used to get sponsorships and build a great team. They earned those business connections, just like TL earned its fan base, and as such they should not be limited because of them.
Flash is a great SC player, and he earned that through hardwork. Just because his lead seems to be insurmountable does not make it fair to give him a predetermined disadvantage. As long as he built up that lead in fair conditions, he deserves it. Similarly, Liquid has built up its fanbase through its long Starcraft tradition. The forums started out as a place where the team could discuss games, strategies, and Starcraft in general. Through the leadership of Nazgul, and the participation of the Liquid members, other people joined the website and formed the current fanbase. It is the Liquid Team's hardwork (in an equal environment) which created the current fanbase, and as such they deserve to get the benefits of such a fanbase (whatever it may be in this situation).
Speaking of the advantage, what tangible insurmountable advantage does Liquid have, other than the best players (which they created)? You could say that HuK joined the team because of the (fairly earned) prestige of the website since he was established before he joined Liquid, and maaaaybe you could make an argument for TLO. However, TL did way less "purchasing" of top players than any of the current top teams. TL's players were made thanks to hard work, dedication, and an eye for talent. TL also took a large risk in going to Korea, a risk anyone else could have taken, to improve their players, which paid off. So what exactly is the insurmountable advantage that Liquid has, and why is it unfair?
Anyway, we're starting to get off topic...
On February 24 2011 09:20 Alur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 08:53 Daigomi wrote:On February 24 2011 08:42 ScarletKnight wrote:On February 24 2011 08:29 Talin wrote:
Liquid: Tyler, Huk, Jinro, Ret, TLO
I'm sorry, but in my own opinion, Haypro has done nothing to prove to be capable of winning a tournament of this caliber. While an excellent player he is, I myself don't believe that he could win an NASL as it stands considering the kind of competition we should see there. So realistically Liquid could front the 5 man limit and still have a favorite to win the whole thing in each division. Lets move on to the other teams now. I really don't think Liquid has more money than the other teams. In fact, I'm fairly sure EG has way more money than Liquid. Liquid didn't simply buy the top players, they made top players by spotting an opportunity in Korea, and through the dedication of their players. A money cap makes sense in certain sports where teams have a geographical advantage, but the cap was never intended to prevent teams from training the best players and using them.A money cap is simply not relevant in esports. All teams start on equal footing and the only advantage teams get is through their own skills. If EG has the most money then more power to them. They didn't get the money because they were based in New York rather than Green Bay, they got it because of their manager's skills. The money thing was more of an analogy. Liquid itself may not be richer but it definitely has more prestige to it than other teams out there which makes it more attractive to players looking for teams. That's more of what I was getting at. Any prestige Liquid has is prestige that they earned in a fair and open field. As I mention, the "cap" that they include in many professional sports is because certain teams have unfair advantages. New York has an advantage because they have a "guaranteed" 15,000,000 supporters. They didn't earn those 15,000,000 supporters. Liquid has no such advantage. You could try to argue that because of the forums, we have more supporters, but the team built these forums, just like Vile could build their own forums. Every advantage that Liquid hasm they earned in an equal playing field, and that's the way its supposed to be. In my opinion you're not providing the proper amount of context, saying that the team built these forums is quite true, but the first draft of TL.net along with the initial Liquid` clan were very different from the teamliquid we know today. You have to keep in mind that the site thrived independantly of the team for (to my knowledge) most of it's excistence, this new site (largely considered a community hub, not a clan site) then went on to create the SC2 team. Ofcourse the common factor that is Nazgul isn't neglible, and suffice to say he (probably along with quite a few others) are a better judge on this subject than i. I would still say, that the team built the forums [insert 10ish years], then the forums built the team. (long after the first team had succumbed to oblivion). Regarding the fairness I can't say, but it's definately a huge advantage.
I think I adressed most of this earlier in my post. It's a huge advantage in getting popular votes for things like the NASL, but I still think the success of the players is largely due to the work of the players themselves, and the leadership of Nazgul. TL picked up lots of players before they were successful in SC2, and these players could have been picked up by any team. Maybe the forums gave TL a bit more prestige making it more likely that players would join TL, but ultimately I don't think this advantage is that big (not as big as a slightly larger contract, for example). Anyway, it's not like TL used that advantage to pick up the top players at the time. If I'm not mistaken, five of TL's six current players were unsigned when they joined the team. Other teams could have picked them up if they wanted to, and other teams have picked up top players from smaller teams on a much larger scale than TL has.
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On February 24 2011 09:15 ScarletKnight wrote:
While I see your point, I addressed that in my other response above. The whole root of this issue is the fact that teams cannot send more than 5 players. And while it is in fact individuals creating the results, they are still associated with their team and representing their team. Jinro of TEAM LIQUID make back to back semi's. Ret of TEAM LIQUID won Assembly. Idra of EG won MLG DC. Huk of TEAM LIQUID won MLG Raleigh.
And so on.
I agree it's a problem that some players will not be able to go because of the team restrictions, but maybe this will create chances other players might not have had in the first place. Who knows? I'm willing to wait and find out.
Again, I say Tyler made great points and I agree with most of them, I'm just playing Devils advocate here.
Actually, HuK of Team Liquid didn't win MLG Raleigh, HuK of Millenium won MLG Raleigh (unless I'm terribly wrong in which case this whole post will be embarrasing, but I think he wasn't on TL yet at that point xD).
I didn't mean to nitpick, this actually leads into an important point - only players on top teams become top players. Sure Huk of Millenium won MLG Raleigh, but would Huk of Millenium be competing in GSL and be widely regarded as one of (if not the) best non-Korean Protoss? No. There is no way that would have happened. Ever.
Most teams apart from the "powerhouses" don't have the infrastructure and the financial backing to support their players in progressing their careers. No matter how much you limit the powerhouses, that won't really change in the foreseeable future. So at the end of the day absolutely nobody benefits from it, because this is what happens:
1) The players on worse teams can't join better teams, because better teams are full = no financial stability and no opportunity to improve. They're stuck with their small semi-pro team that can't support them in being a full-time professional player and their talent goes to waste.
2) Careers of genuinely good players on top teams are damaged because they can't play in their team, and take a major step back if they join a lesser team, so their talent and work they put in goes to waste too. Keep in mind that these may actually be sick good players (eg Haypro).
3) Top teams can't expand their playerbase and produce more top players, hence we have less quality on the scene, fall back further behind Koreans, and end up with a lot of wasted talent.
4) The rule doesn't help smaller teams in any way whatsoever. Sure they get some players in a competition that they wouldn't get if the powerhouses weren't limited, but these players are just going to get rolled in online division stage anyway. No ifs or buts, they will get rolled. The rule doesn't give smaller teams money, it doesn't make sure they can pay their players sufficiently or attract a top player, it doesn't guarantee them sponsors (again, even Root can't get good deals with the stacked lineup they have already), it just lets their players into the brackets even though some of them may not be nearly good enough to be there.
The only superficial benefit is for the league itself, because hey, "they don't want team kills and teammates throwing games to each other". Well the price to pay for that is way too high, considering NASL aims to be the most influential competition in the foreign scene.
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EPT
