I was catching up on some random PL games and came across this insane game from Winner's League on Circuit Breaker at the end of January.
Sea (T) <Circuit Breaker> Action (Z)
This was one hell of a game and embodies a lot of what I love so much about BW. This game is incredibly long, clocking in at at least 35-40min, but holy shit, it is never dull.
Sea opens with a ton of pressure. Action manages to defend the three waves of marine pressure Sea puts on, but loses many drones and is forced to put down something like eight sunks in total to defend. He is incredibly behind.
However, once his mutas pop, he catches Sea with his pants down, more or less. His marine count is low due to all the pressure he'd put on, and Action rips through Sea's turret line. Sea loses the lead he'd had.
Action does a great job defending his bases and Sea loses his early midgame timing (before defilers are out). He tech switches to mech play and goes for tanks and vultures. At this point, Action still has the lead. He has been comfortably on 3-4 bases, is able to continue expanding, and was able to transition into hive tech safely and cleanly.
He begins throwing units into Sea's tank lines with macro supported off of as many as six bases at one point in a fashion that would make July proud. However, Sea manages to hold with excellent mines constantly relaid. His tank lines hold and he's able to hold onto his third and fourth bases with few interruptions.
Action continues raining mass amounts of units on top of Sea's forces. Sea eventually begins to get worn down. Unfortunately, this happens at the same time Action's bases are pretty much mined out.
Sea's competitive upgrades and his persistent and constant mine placement won him this game. Action threw away so many damn units to mines, it was ridiculous. For his part, Action's defense early on was very good, and his muta control bringing him back into the game was even better.
Sea's safe switch into mech is what won him the game. As he managed to defend wave after wave of units from Action, he slowly gained momentum while Action slowly fizzled out. Again, his mine use was clutch - not so much the placement, but his constant re-mining.
If you weren't around before SC2, I definitely recommend watching this game. It is incredible. If otherwise, here's a great game in case you missed it. (:
I saw this game with a few friends and i was thinking "No motherfucking way Sea can win this" and in some way Soulkey threw it away by suiciding so many units into him in small chunks
This one is good but really I think the game I saw that most amazed me was bisu vs flash on hb ridge. It was not to long and it made my jaw drop and eyes explode. This is coming from a terran too.
Oh that and upmagic vs luxury on outsider. I fealt like I was watching boxer.
edit- this game was not very enjoyable to me as a zerg player. The whole game I was like, meh this zerg is gonna probably win but he's being really really sloppy. Then he just slopped his way to defeat using ultras vs mech and poor dropship play.
Korean progamers seem to really like using ultras against mech. I'm not exactly sure why.
Zerg play against Terran mech still hasn't completely matured, in my opinion. Once the Terran actually gets transitioned, it always seems like a losing battle for the Z until the T slips up and lets a droom drop or something by. That critical mass of tanks just melts anything the Z can throw at it.
The only thing really keeping the matchup balanced is the huge window of opportunity Z has before T's gotten their deathball up.
ultralisks drops against tanks are really strong, I think that's why they like it. It also nullifies small numbers of tanks, which makes it harder for terran to abuse harass potential (vultures too).
If zerg could just drop lings against tanks, it would be like PvT, but unfortunately they seem to die before any splash can happen, so I think that's why progamers prefer ultras. Of course mass ling/hydra/muta army are also very effective vs mech, but there's comes a point when Terran is just not letting you flank him properly and you have to utilize your lategame tech.
I don't think late game terran mech ball is that powerful. Flash vs Zero was absolutely late game, and Zero was able to fight that army toe to toe. Jaedong also often destroys that late game mech now. For awhile mech was very scary and hard for Zergs to deal with, but then they figured it out and I think that's why we don't see it nearly as much anymore
On February 19 2011 07:34 Chef wrote: ultralisks drops against tanks are really strong, I think that's why they like it. It also nullifies small numbers of tanks, which makes it harder for terran to abuse harass potential (vultures too).
If zerg could just drop lings against tanks, it would be like PvT, but unfortunately they seem to die before any splash can happen, so I think that's why progamers prefer ultras. Of course mass ling/hydra/muta army are also very effective vs mech, but there's comes a point when Terran is just not letting you flank him properly and you have to utilize your lategame tech.
I don't think late game terran mech ball is that powerful. Flash vs Zero was absolutely late game, and Zero was able to fight that army toe to toe. Jaedong also often destroys that late game mech now. For awhile mech was very scary and hard for Zergs to deal with, but then they figured it out and I think that's why we don't see it nearly as much anymore
How do most pros handle Mech? I do worse against mech than bio ><
I've seen more games where Zs have just slowly been steamrolled in late-game ZvT mech. Buuut I haven't been watching a whole lot of BW lately either.
We've seen that midgame T mech doesn't work so well since the T basically loses any and all map control. It also seems to be a really binary style of play: if the deathball manages to crawl its way across the map, Z usually loses. If Z manages to stop the ball, T usually loses.
Over the past year or so, lots of Ts have been spamming out tanks in the late game to defend outlying expansions, then at a certain point, they'd just roll the tanks out with their MM and vessels and just steamroll expansions to finish the Z off. Mines were also used to great effect to deter backstabs.
EDIT Forgot to make a point in this...
Anyway, could you link me those games, Chef? I'm really curious. Personally, I think going more than a few ultras to soak some hits is dumb, and that hydra/ling/muta is really the best bet against massive tank lines.
On February 18 2011 19:49 sc4k wrote: For me it's sad that BW has been sidelined by sc2 just at the time play was being perfected for bw
this game actually shows how terribly hard zvt was. even at that top level gaining a humongous advantage early on resulted in nothing. the amount of work zergs had to do in order to beat a good terran was beyond reasonable compared to other matchups
also this game is a good reminder of what a fuckfest terran mech was. i hope sc2 will not allow for something like this to happen (throughout late days of beta it all started to feel scarily familiar)
ZvT is an incredibly difficult matchup in both directions. MM control and the ridiculous macro and multitasking you need to maintain a strong SK style is very hard. To be honest, Zergs were incredibly strong for a while if they could get defiler tech out safely and had been consistently pruning vessel numbers. Terrans are getting better at defending expansions in the late game now, so we're seeing a shift.
Action lost this game because he really didn't play it well. He got too confident sitting on his bazillion bases and figured he'd just be able to wear down Sea before he lost momentum.
SC2 seems to be stagnating in Korea, tbh. It's getting bigger everywhere else, but GOM's retarded decision to make everyone PAY to watch any of their games is keeping many people from getting into it. It's drawing in a ton of competition, but not many viewers.
BW is getting smaller as well, but I seriously hope players will get back into it. ):
i dont think anyone will get back into it after playing enough sc2. for a casual user actual competitiveness of bw is gone. player base is broken up, the only people that still play are either doing it for fun or simply cant afford the equipment to play sc2. that and a few enthusiasts here and there. its over
On February 19 2011 08:28 PH wrote: Anyway, could you link me those games, Chef? I'm really curious. Personally, I think going more than a few ultras to soak some hits is dumb, and that hydra/ling/muta is really the best bet against massive tank lines.
On February 19 2011 08:49 thehorsebecomesking wrote: i dont think anyone will get back into it after playing enough sc2. for a casual user actual competitiveness of bw is gone. player base is broken up, the only people that still play are either doing it for fun or simply cant afford the equipment to play sc2. that and a few enthusiasts here and there. its over
OK Mr. BW expert with 21 post and who joined TL 5 days ago. Its definitely NOT over. BW is more awesome than you are anyone has yet comprehended, as shown by the video posted by OP. It won't die no matter what new games come out. Plus what do you mean "the casual competitiveness of BW is gone"? I played all day today as a D- zerg who started playing seriously a month ago and GUESS WHAT I LOVED IT. Why don't you get on Fish or ICCUP then tell me how dead it is. EDIT: ok I was way to emotional but I just hate it when someone gets on a good blog like this and spews all this off-topic garbage about how this game is dead. Please just don't comment on something about BW if your not going to provide anything useful.
it means that you are playing for fun, you are not really competing with anyone but yourself. channels are empty, you can rave all you want but the only semi visited place is op teamliquid. if you read my post carefully you will notice that i mentioned some people that still do play. but this is a dead scene now, outside of korea obviously. you can find more people playing d2 atm. not even talking about servers outside of iccup
People like to cast doom and gloom on SC:BW, but imo it's completely unfounded. I'm glad you like SC2, but no one cares that you think BW is dead. It's not. Even outside of Korea, it's going pretty well. So what if some big name foreigners have switched to sc2 for a bit? People who think that matters just don't get BW.
On February 19 2011 11:47 thehorsebecomesking wrote: it means that you are playing for fun, you are not really competing with anyone but yourself. channels are empty, you can rave all you want but the only semi visited place is op teamliquid. if you read my post carefully you will notice that i mentioned some people that still do play. but this is a dead scene now, outside of korea obviously. you can find more people playing d2 atm. not even talking about servers outside of iccup
Im starting to realize you don't actually know anything about BW. If you want to learn some more about it, PM and I could play some practice games with you! Its not that hard to learn if you've got someone there to give you a hand.
On February 19 2011 11:47 thehorsebecomesking wrote: it means that you are playing for fun, you are not really competing with anyone but yourself. channels are empty, you can rave all you want but the only semi visited place is op teamliquid. if you read my post carefully you will notice that i mentioned some people that still do play. but this is a dead scene now, outside of korea obviously. you can find more people playing d2 atm. not even talking about servers outside of iccup
The foreighner pros moved on to sc2 hoping to make money.. for everyone else whether they are playing BW or sc2, they are "playing for fun". You can find games on iccup just as you can find games on sc2 by pushing the find match button. BW chat channels are not always filled and sc2 chat channels just barely were allowed to come into existence.
And why are the BW channels empty? Becuase a lot of broodwar players all came together to mutaually agree that BW is dead becuase artosis said so. Then people like you decided to continually promote the game as dead for absolutely no reason. All you are doing is limiting your options to sc2, a game that has had its growth completly stunted by a very obnoxious corperations.
Lol XXGeneration somehow your post was the one that revealed the winner for me.
To the guy that says bw is over, it's actually way bigger in Korea than sc2. And kind of paradoxical but if you actually played bw you'd know that the player base is hardly "broken up."
What were you trying to point out by "the only people left playing are the ones who think it's fun..." like, no really? Why do you play games period if it's not fun?
im not one of 'those people' that come into a thread to proclaim the death of bw just because they are bitter for never being able to tame or understand it. i actually think that bw is a vastly superior game, both in terms of skill and entertainment. i am simply stating facts as i see them. last time i played sc2 was during beta, my computer is not good enough to run it otherwise i would be playing it now. i still play iccup here and there, played it since the death of pgt
like i said, some still play for fun. to me though as soon as competition is gone the game is gone too. im not talking about koreans, of course they still play a ton of bw. what i mean is the scene that i cared for, like beating shitty clans in clanleagues, doing better than other foreigners on the ladder, ranking in top 20 or 40 or whatever in country rankings. we all knew it was stupid and hopeless trying hard to get your name out there but as long as there was some respect to be gained it was exciting. i still mess around on icup but i lost the passion for the grind. since i dont want to do something that is the essense of the game anymore the game is over
On February 19 2011 08:28 PH wrote: Personally, I think going more than a few ultras to soak some hits is dumb, and that hydra/ling/muta is really the best bet against massive tank lines.
On February 19 2011 13:29 thehorsebecomesking wrote: im not one of 'those people' that come into a thread to proclaim the death of bw just because they are bitter for never being able to tame or understand it. i actually think that bw is a vastly superior game, both in terms of skill and entertainment. i am simply stating facts as i see them. last time i played sc2 was during beta, my computer is not good enough to run it otherwise i would be playing it now. i still play iccup here and there, played it since the death of pgt
like i said, some still play for fun. to me though as soon as competition is gone the game is gone too. im not talking about koreans, of course they still play a ton of bw. what i mean is the scene that i cared for, like beating shitty clans in clanleagues, doing better than other foreigners on the ladder, ranking in top 20 or 40 or whatever in country rankings. we all knew it was stupid and hopeless trying hard to get your name out there but as long as there was some respect to be gained it was exciting. i still mess around on icup but i lost the passion for the grind. since i dont want to do something that is the essense of the game anymore the game is over
Im sorry I judged you as to quickly as being just another troll. I don't really understand what you mean though about competition. The ISL is a pretty competitive and top players will be revered through out the foreign BW community in the whole world. Plus, theres still WCG and weekly defiler tournaments. Then theres the ICCUP ladder and having your stream featured. Theres plenty for a good player to gain lots of respect. I know I respect almost any top level foreigner. who is still playing BW and didn't sell out for SC2.
I hate to say it, but BW outside of Korea really is either dead or dying. Before SC2 was announced, it was already shrinking outside of Korea. After SC2 was announced, there was a big boom for BW. People excited fro SC2 were getting nostalgia attacks and were coming back to BW for a while. After SC2 came out, nearly every big name in foreigner BW has gone to SC2.
In Korea, BW will continue to stay strong for a while, but once the current generation of players starts moving on, what's going to happen? The proteams are shrinking in size. Bisu mentioned in an interview that SKT has gone from having 20 people staying in the team house to 10. Hell, we've lost two pro teams in the last year or so, and ACE isn't going to be around much longer if there aren't enough decent players to fill up its roster with. There's just not enough new blood.
SC2 is taking away all the players willing to compete. The only thing keeping it afloat right now is the GSL's utter retardation in handling its tournament. They're keeping their viewership a niche by forcing payment to watch games, and their live events have been a joke.
Once they learn, it's going to go over. I hate it as much as the next person, but BW fans like us are a minority. People like new and shiny things.
On February 20 2011 11:36 PH wrote: I hate to say it, but BW outside of Korea really is either dead or dying. Before SC2 was announced, it was already shrinking outside of Korea. After SC2 was announced, there was a big boom for BW. People excited fro SC2 were getting nostalgia attacks and were coming back to BW for a while. After SC2 came out, nearly every big name in foreigner BW has gone to SC2.
In Korea, BW will continue to stay strong for a while, but once the current generation of players starts moving on, what's going to happen? The proteams are shrinking in size. Bisu mentioned in an interview that SKT has gone from having 20 people staying in the team house to 10. Hell, we've lost two pro teams in the last year or so, and ACE isn't going to be around much longer if there aren't enough decent players to fill up its roster with. There's just not enough new blood.
SC2 is taking away all the players willing to compete. The only thing keeping it afloat right now is the GSL's utter retardation in handling its tournament. They're keeping their viewership a niche by forcing payment to watch games, and their live events have been a joke.
Once they learn, it's going to go over. I hate it as much as the next person, but BW fans like us are a minority. People like new and shiny things.
Well I still don't believe it. The best things always survive. Thats just nature. Natural selection. BW is the best game ever played and the most enjoyable sport ever watched. Just like classical music has been popular science the dawn of modern artistic expression, BW will survive.
EPT
what an amazing game.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MdKP4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zYu2u.jpg)
