Please dont close it, not a troll and not in for attention either. I seriously want to know this and hope that someone can answer me.
I read all the pages of the [US] House Passes Healthcare Repeal mentioned thread and I did not want to get into the discussion as I have no REAL idea about the american health care / insurance situation, neither did I want to comment the sense of "lost causes" in the U.S. house of representatives passed when you only have 2 parties present in it and you know how it is going to end (unlike other countries with more parties and the reasonable possibility to form short-term alliances with other partys to get a bill through that you see reasonable for your people even though you might have formed a coalition with another party to rule the country for the period of time you were elected for and disagree with the former).
I only have a question for the american citizens here that always bugged me deep down in my heart. Some of you (most of you? - in this kind of thread at least as far as I know [ and I read all of "those" threads I can find]) always seem to argue THE PEOPLE against THE GOVERNMENT as if all this was some kind of court case. Life is not a court case, political decisions are not a court cases either. I see myself as part of the austrian people AND government as I cannot see how they differ. Although I do not work in the actual or imagined "government" that rules over YOU, the people. We,the people elect them (some of the people ) and we can also bring those persons that we elect down again.
Its not a mystified being that has to be feard, it is your neighbour who is in the senate and your friend who works at the local police station. The people form the government and if it has come so far that you are afraid of your own government and dont want it in your life, you might have to rethink a lot. (And as I am writing this I realize .. has this always been the case in the U.S. ? How come .. Its not like some day the government just appeared and everyone accepted it but thought "better not let them into my life, I am sure this is evil witchcraft)
I never understood this. And if you actually say that democracy works different in your country than in others and that I do not understand the united states citizen and the government they run, I cannot really argue against you. You can also say that I am a leftist european douche who thinks that all life has to be saved and that trees have to be hugged, I can live with that.
Hell I am even a communist (does it really matter what sort and if I believe that there has been no communist government yet?), so bring it on. But I actually dont want to bash your style of life, most cultures differ in many ways and I accept that. Does not mean I like them, does not mean I would even accept their invitation to visit (although I most likely would, to see how it really is there and to make up my own mind unbiased of things that I read/heard although most of our opinions are second hand as we cannot be everywhere and life is short.. But it does mean that we all can talk and argue and learn from each other (or not, WAR). Its not like the EU is perfect in any way (as if, trolo) - permanent changes are the best part of democracy. We do not have the same kind of democracy that we had 50 years ago and in 20 years it will have changed again.
This really is not criticizing a country (a people) I know very little about (well I read a lot and I like to read but reading can only give you so much information - at some point you have to at least talk to U.S. citizens or go over there and experience it personally).
I just want to know if there is a reason behind the fear of the government, this demonized being that cannot be controlled and does what it wants to do and ALWAYS is against you.
And I know sometimes I get a little bit sarcastic so dont quote me on my written words and say "Dear Tufas, I do not think that any of our founder fathers thought that the government was full of witchcraft. Regards, Joe Sixpack." Take it with a grain of salt and some humor, then try to answer this question that always bugged me .. Why do some of you (a lot, does not even have to be the majority - hypothetical 30% of the U.S. is still a lot of people) fear your (own) government ?
And if you feel that I am unfair to the american members of TL.net as you have the same fear regarding your government and I had the nerves to not speak about any other countries, feel free to post as well of course.
Sincerely, Tufas
PS: I really apologize for my grammar and the english non-typical nested sentence, thats how us german speakers roll. I tried to use as much american english opposed to british english as my knowledge allowed me to.
PS PS: I dont like TL:DR. Either read it or do not read it. And if you read all this and respond with "I do not exactly fear my government, I just do not want to have it in my life that much" - please, you know what I mean. PEACE
But the American government has primarily been set up to be adversarial, in that every branch of the government is set up to check some function of the other. I suppose you could explain this by "absolute power absolutely corrupts".
Its not a mystified being that has to be feard, it is your neighbour who is in the senate and your friend who works at the local police station.
Collectively, it also a group of people that often wish to dictate how I should behave, and how I should live my life. In essence, forcing people into paying for a healthcare system that is neither just nor efficient (well, is "worse than the status quo") is exactly that. There's a certain egalitarian streak in the American population that recoils when others crown themselves moral and intellectual superiors and impose all sorts of regulations in the hopes of creating a better world that inconveniently doesn't match up to reality. Its neatly encapsulated in the common belief that "Congress would be better off if they picked names out of a telephone book".
To answer your question: probably not "fear", but a healthy adversarial relationship.
PS:
I see myself as part of the austrian people AND government as I cannot see how they differ.
You self-identify as a communist, so look at the "workers paradises" of the world (and in the dustbins of history) and see how the government differs from the people.
I don't fear our government much at all. A lot of Americans take for granted the things that the government does for citizens at the relatively low cost (compared to other countries) in terms of tax money. As for law enforcement and control, the government is pretty incompetent, and most people that suffer from "crackdowns" probably deserve it. Like in many other countries, Americans on the whole commit tiny crimes every few hours and think nothing of it. There is the law in the books and the law in daily life.
The most damage done by the US government, in my opinion, is through neglect, rather than active censorship or denial of rights.
The key issue is many Americans (those on the right side of the political spectrum) believe in limited government. The reasons for this may include fear, but there are other reasons as well: - belief that the government is inefficient due to monopolization/lack of competition - belief that free market principals (i.e. private companies competing) provide the consumer with the best options, even in areas such as insurance and healthcare. - belief that increased government control/oversight will lead to even more government control/oversight (i.e. the slippery slope), leading to decreased personal freedoms - belief that fiscally, a smaller government is more responsible (spend less on expensive/expansive programs)
There are almost certainly more reasons, but this should give you an idea at least.
I am with you on the mutual monitoring as we cannot trust everyone to do what he is supposed to do. It is like this in every government of course, as people have flaws and are not perfect. I dig that.
Well as I mentioned I cannot really talk about your heal care situation ( I assume you are U.S. citizen) so I cannot really argue specifics ..
I personally think the government speak: us, the people should and can regulate certain basic needs and I count health care to this basic needs for once. I mean you are not afraid that they might control the roads and dont let you drive on them ..
"Congress would be better off if they picked names out of a telephone book". I like that very much, reminds me of antic Athen where they chose random male citizens into political positions and paid them. (well did not work out that well but hey)
edit :
On January 26 2011 07:07 419 wrote: You self-identify as a communist, so look at the "workers paradises" of the world (and in the dustbins of history) and see how the government differs from the people.
I also said that there has not been a communist government yet and if you ask me, in the duskbin of history there is also a lot of "democracy" that does not deserve that name at all and is missleading in many ways compared to the democracies we have now(one small example to proove my point, woman voting right)
I won't argue with whether or not I think the way the EU is ran is better or worse than the USA (especially since it's just a political and economic body and not an actually country like the USA) but I would say there are things I like and dislike about the USA compared to Europe (currently studying in Spain).
I don't fear my government but what I do fear is the ignorance of the public. Too many people will latch onto the radical speeches of politicians or just merely accept the political beliefs of their friends or family. I see it all too often that people defend a political point of view based on spewing out "facts" (can't really trust just one media source's point of view) and blatantly on a desire to be accepted by those around them.
Sure, I sometimes fear what will happen when the political opposition takes power in the government but at the same time it's one of the reasons I love the USA. The people truly decide who will be in power. (Not saying that this isn't true of other countries). However, it's the freedom to elect public officials that is also scary if said officials gain office based on ignorant votes.
PS I hate "Vote of DIE!" posters...Should say "Vote while well-informed or don't vote at all".
The US is much nicer to its own citizens than to those abroad. Certainly it may be abusive and extremely corrupt, and there's plenty of cases of unjust government action, but most people aren't affected. Elected officials will lose the next election if they do something too questionable. Certainly far less to fear than from a government like China. As far as trusting the government, that's a whole different story.
On January 26 2011 07:11 Flakes wrote: I don't fear our government much at all. A lot of Americans take for granted the things that the government does for citizens at the relatively low cost (compared to other countries) in terms of tax money. As for law enforcement and control, the government is pretty incompetent, and most people that suffer from "crackdowns" probably deserve it. Like in many other countries, Americans on the whole commit tiny crimes every few hours and think nothing of it. There is the law in the books and the law in daily life.
The most damage done by the US government, in my opinion, is through neglect, rather than active censorship or denial of rights.
Of course everyone commits trivial offense .. I dont know anyone who doesnt. Besides, its nearly impossible not to.
But by neglect you then say that your government is not intervening or controlling enough or they DO intervene, just not correctly and thus wasting ressources ?
Two great posts directly together :
On January 26 2011 07:15 Half wrote: Nah, just harbor a profound contempt and distrust for.
I have several friends who are working to become politicians of some variety. Dunno why I'd fear them.
In a democratic nation, if fearing government is a legitimate stance, I don't think its even democratic anymore.
On January 26 2011 07:15 Romantic wrote: Governments should always be feared, challenged, and hated. You'd be a fool if you didn't.
But I think you should work WITH the people YOU send to represent YOUR interests (of course they elect/choose others and you can not vote for the majority of people they introduce - another reason for a transparent government but thats another story .. dont reply on that)
On January 26 2011 07:17 aidnai wrote: The key issue is many Americans (those on the right side of the political spectrum) believe in limited government. The reasons for this may include fear, but there are other reasons as well: - belief that the government is inefficient due to monopolization/lack of competition - belief that free market principals (i.e. private companies competing) provide the consumer with the best options, even in areas such as insurance and healthcare. - belief that increased government control/oversight will lead to even more government control/oversight (i.e. the slippery slope), leading to decreased personal freedoms - belief that fiscally, a smaller government is more responsible (spend less on expensive/expansive programs)
There are almost certainly more reasons, but this should give you an idea at least.
Well I think basic needs should be regulated to assure that they get taken care about but I accept that other people think differently. By limiting your government you limit the people you send in to work for your good - but I know that there are different approaches. To "those on the right side of the political spectrum" i just bluntly and randomly say republicans - I still dont see how you do not want to trust those who... reign at the highest plains.
On January 26 2011 07:21 discipled_iu wrote: I won't argue with whether or not I think the way the EU is ran is better or worse than the USA (especially since it's just a political and economic body and not an actually country like the USA) but I would say there are things I like and dislike about the USA compared to Europe (currently studying in Spain).
I don't fear my government but what I do fear is the ignorance of the public. Too many people will latch onto the radical speeches of politicians or just merely accept the political beliefs of their friends or family. I see it all too often that people defend a political point of view based on spewing out "facts" (can't really trust just one media source's point of view) and blatantly on a desire to be accepted by those around them.
Sure, I sometimes fear what will happen when the political opposition takes power in the government but at the same time it's one of the reasons I love the USA. The people truly decide who will be in power. (Not saying that this isn't true of other countries). However, it's the freedom to elect public officials that is also scary if said officials gain office based on ignorant votes.
PS I hate "Vote of DIE!" posters...Should say "Vote while well-informed or don't vote at all".
Rest assured that it is not a U.S. phenomenon that people often vote on .. underinformed and not well self-reflected opinions. We (or I) have the same problem with a lot of austrian citizens. A good way to work against that is a very well formed and thought-through free public education .. in my opinion.
On January 26 2011 07:21 Lightwip wrote: The US is much nicer to its own citizens than to those abroad. Certainly it may be abusive and extremely corrupt, and there's plenty of cases of unjust government action, but most people aren't affected. Elected officials will lose the next election if they do something too questionable. Certainly far less to fear than from a government like China. As far as trusting the government, that's a whole different story.
Well the US should care about its citizens more then those of other countries (or lets say at least differently, I feel thats better put) - the only problem there is is war of course. When you (sorry for all those who dont see it that way) invade other countries, you force yourself to help them rebuild, especially if you were the aggressor. At least in the 21st century
I am really sorry for all that bad grammar .. reading it the 4th and 5th time I still find many errors and I did not even get to correct my response to your responses
Would you say that it is a very republican thing to do ? Be afraid of your government ? Or is that absolutely false and does in no way represent the political reality ..
I always thought this was more wide-spread than republican fear mongering about everything that keeps you working(grain of salt, remember?) but maybe I was wrong. I just thought there was more behind it :/
The US sovernment better fear americans or else we americans aren't doing our job properly.
The united states is a very philosophical place. We have so much diversity that the citizens cannot agree even on simple cultural principles. In many countries, societies can exist peacefully since all of the citizens are born and raised with similar ideologies and thoughts about the role of government and all outsiders are fringe minority who either get along or get out. The united states cannot afford this luxury. Whites are basically the largest minority and whites are generally not even close to having similar cultural experiences. The united states is also the third largest country in the world and the largest country to not have 90% or more of a single ethnicity.
There is only one other country that is remotely close to the US which is india, but that suffers from a caste system so I still cannot compare. The only other comparison is the EU, but the EU lacks the authority to override its member states.
In the US, state government dictates and enforces most of the laws. When you live in a state you are basically a citizen of that state. The united states is a collection of states with a single goal of mutual protection. States elect leaders via the electoral college and those leaders run a government for the sole purpose of protecting the land from foreign invaders and enforcing supreme law.
Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
The only thing that i am afraid of is one side taking control of all 3 parts (pres., senate, house). This always leads to terrible decisions being made, and always hurts the people. I have faith in them if a balance of power is restored, but otherwise, not at all.
Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one.
How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either.
On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote: Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear .. Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff. Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal )
But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
On January 26 2011 08:20 Tufas wrote: Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one.
How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either.
On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote: Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear .. Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff. Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal )
But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
No we are too big of a country to be run by a single centralized government and we have too much diversity even among the states. If you compare say california to nevada, they are very similar, but if you compare california to texas, there are a ton of differences. Americans are free to live where they want and often people identify themselves by the state they grew up. I'm californian, I have friends who are texan, etc, but a lot of people also identify with the US, but only to foreigners. The differences might not be as drastic as the EU, but they still exist.
The original united states was a very loose confederation of states and has only really become more centralized when the government made the federal reserve. Without the federal reserve to finance all of the wars and government spending, the federal government would probably still be really small.
The majority of Americans do not fear the government. In fact, I don't think anyone in their right mind really fears the government. Some people are DISPLEASED with it. But people definitely don't fear American government. The government in America would never hurt it's own citizens. I think most people express displeasure at the inefficiency of government, but most rational people know that the government will never threaten it's own people.
About the political parties, the two U.S. parties are basically the same, with only minor differences. It's very unlikely one party would seize control, but even if it happened, things would likely stay the same, because they would still have to fear reelection in two years.
Also, the opinions of TL are highly skewed and not your average American.
And also, most people aren't going to make posts about how great the government is, because only the negative aspects make for good news and discussion.
In my opinion, the government doesn't even affect myself. I will vote for people that I like and agree with, but overall, the government plays a very small part in my life.
On January 26 2011 08:20 Tufas wrote: Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one.
How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either.
On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote: Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear .. Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff. Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal )
But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
This also makes the parties a lot differently focused. Americans tend to focus on several very important issues and general philosophy rather than on small things. The federal government makes decisions about war, diplomacy and some domestic spending. State governments run the schools, and welfare. There are many, like myself, who believe that social programs on the state level are fine, but that are a waste on the federal level. This is why you have republican governors who support supposedly democratic provisions for state government and vice versa.
The biggest issues are the following 1. Federal tax level (and spending) 2. Size and role of military 3. Abortion
Democrats say 1. Increase taxes to keep programs alive. 2. Reduce size of military during times of peace 3. Abortion should stay legal
Republicans say 1. Decrease programs so that taxes don't go up. 2. Keep the military always ready even during peace 3. Abortion should be illegal.
Other than that, republicans and democrats are very similar on a ton of different ideas. Republicans are slowly becoming more libertarian too since the failure of bush and the relaxing of high moral standards espoused by the baby boomers. Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
A former professor of mine lived in the U.S. in the 80 - very late 90s and he always said that americans have only 2 parties for a lot do not really care about them .. they vote their state representatives (or senators, I am not sure anymore) on their actions and then on their ideas, not on their color (red or blue) - a word by word translation I was never sure if he was trolling us or not - that guy had the best humor in the world (diplomat .. all of them a bunch of wackos)
Where are most of your laws made anyway ? Or set into order .. Your state that you live in or the central government in washington (pretty sure it was washington :D ) I guess that there are a bunch of basic laws that are country wide and then every state can work on the refinement / small allowed changes ..
Do you differ between your state and the "nation-wide" government ? I know that there IS a difference, no need to tell me that. But do you actually talk like "oh a new nation-wide law has been made .. lets hope our state does something against it" .. so do you actually take them as 2 different parts ? And where this is leading - are the people afraid of their state or of this maybe abstract building in washington that rules over them.
On January 26 2011 08:36 Enervate wrote: The majority of Americans do not fear the government. In fact, I don't think anyone in their right mind really fears the government. Some people are DISPLEASED with it. But people definitely don't fear American government.
I know that there is no basic FEAR of the government and I also tried to say that in the blog.
On January 26 2011 06:59 Tufas wrote:
PS PS: And if you read all this and respond with "I do not exactly fear my government, I just do not want to have it in my life that much" - please, you know what I mean.
On January 26 2011 08:36 Enervate wrote:
Also, the opinions of TL are highly skewed and not your average American.
And also, most people aren't going to make posts about how great the government is, because only the negative aspects make for good news and discussion.
I know that TL.net is not at all representative in age, race and education .. but when 10 people respons and you take it with a slight suspiciousness, you might actually get some good information out of it. Well I also did not want to hear how great the government is (if it is or not, maybe as is it), I wanted to know why some (and I think a fair bunch) of people seem to "fear" their government or at least not have the biggest affection towards it.
This also makes the parties a lot differently focused. Americans tend to focus on several very important issues and general philosophy rather than on small things. The federal government makes decisions about war, diplomacy and some domestic spending. State governments run the schools, and welfare. There are many, like myself, who believe that social programs on the state level are fine, but that are a waste on the federal level. This is why you have republican governors who support supposedly democratic provisions for state government and vice versa.
The biggest issues are the following 1. Federal tax level (and spending) 2. Size and role of military 3. Abortion
Democrats say 1. Increase taxes to keep programs alive. 2. Reduce size of military during times of peace 3. Abortion should stay legal
Republicans say 1. Decrease programs so that taxes don't go up. 2. Keep the military always ready even during peace 3. Abortion should be illegal.
Other than that, republicans and democrats are very similar on a ton of different ideas. Republicans are slowly becoming more libertarian too since the failure of bush and the relaxing of high moral standards espoused by the baby boomers. Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
3. I mean "us" europeans (EU at least,but I am pretty sure that I can legit write europeans) have a hard time arguing about abortion .. but from other TL thread that focused on the U.S. like how to foreigners think about u.s. politics, I got that abortion is not that big of a discussion in the U.S. and no one actually thinks that this law is going to be changed and abortion is going to be illegal agian.
1. Well I can only bring on my point of view but thats not going to help.
2. Well I know that the U.S. plans on disengaging from the middle-east (or allready is!) - but you actually seem to have a lot of war, when I am allowed to say that. If you want to spend your money like that in the future, you might as well keep it ... for what ever reason . (oil or not to oil, thats the question.) Sorry, I do not want to even start.. it leads to nothing. Dont respond to that .... (and I could just delete it and noone would ever know I wrote it and by not deleting it it seems like I want you to respons, but dont.)
I don't see the US government as malicious. Merely powerful and sometimes (many times) incompetent. There's collateral damage when a big guy is clumsy, and sometimes that damage is the citizens.
So yes, I'm afraid of the US government in about the same way that I'm afraid of lightning.
Two different ways to answer that question. Some people fear government, any government- those are the tea partier types who are stockpiling guns and want to stop paying any taxes. But others (like me) just fear the U.S. government as it currently exists. It's influenced so much by rich corporate interests, while doing so little to help regular people. And as we've seen recently in the case of Bradley Manning, it as the power to throw people into prison without even a trial, and basically torture them there in solitary confinement. We have one of the world's toughest prison systems and highest inprisonment rates. I'd say that's good reason to fear the government.
sc4k, well we all know those citizens who may not even know what parties there are.
Luddite: Do you feel like there is any chance of changing this ? Or do you actively try to change this (I know this is much to ask and do not want to hear specifics, I am just interested if you actually want to change the situation ) or do you have hope for change at least
On January 26 2011 08:44 Tufas wrote: A former professor of mine lived in the U.S. in the 80 - very late 90s and he always said that americans have only 2 parties for a lot do not really care about them .. they vote their state representatives (or senators, I am not sure anymore) on their actions and then on their ideas, not on their color (red or blue) - a word by word translation I was never sure if he was trolling us or not - that guy had the best humor in the world (diplomat .. all of them a bunch of wackos)
Where are most of your laws made anyway ? Or set into order .. Your state that you live in or the central government in washington (pretty sure it was washington :D ) I guess that there are a bunch of basic laws that are country wide and then every state can work on the refinement / small allowed changes ..
Do you differ between your state and the "nation-wide" government ? I know that there IS a difference, no need to tell me that. But do you actually talk like "oh a new nation-wide law has been made .. lets hope our state does something against it" .. so do you actually take them as 2 different parts ? And where this is leading - are the people afraid of their state or of this maybe abstract building in washington that rules over them.
There are no nation-wide laws. The government can only create laws that affect governments or prevent states from enacting certain laws. The only law the government has ever made that affected the whole nation is the prohibition law back in the 1920s to ban alcohol. It was later revoked. Marijuana possession is still a federal crime, but is currently being fought in the states. Most of the federal government involves regulating certain commercial activities and immigration. Public schooling is partially paid for by the US government, but the states do everything other than that.
Most laws like forbiding a certain activity or behaviour are on the state or county level. Gay marriage and marajuana possession is an example which is being fought for in all of the different states. Eventually polygamy will be fought for too. Most of these issues end up in the supreme court which usually rules in the favor of more freedom. States cannot deprive citizens of their rights and it is the job of the supreme court to ensure this.
Here's how different it is. The united states doesn't have an official language. Most states have adopted english or english/spanish, but hawaii includes hawaiin in their official languages. There are several states which post all government information in both english and spanish. This is why english literacy is not necessarily a requirement for being a US citizen.
I would say that 50% of my day to day life is affected by city laws, 40% by state, and 10% by the federal government. State taxes have been hurting me a lot more than federal taxes recently.
Although I knew that there is no official language, I thought that more than half of the states adoptet english or bilingual-trilingual as "official" languages starting from the late 80s . I think this is a very meltingpot-ish thing to do, and I like that there is no official language although I always thought it was strange as it was clearly founded by english speaking man and woman. (13 colonies were english - but you can argue that the U.S. was not founded there :D )
Well, you are very informing and thats good but I think I will not get much more to my original question.
On January 26 2011 08:41 darmousseh wrote: Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
Wanting to abolish the tenth amendment because one believes it would make the federal government more efficient would not make one a socialist; it would make one a supporter of a unitary state.
Abolishing the tenth amendment would not actually make the federal government stronger anyway. The tenth amendment does not actually do anything. The federal government between 1788 and 1791 was not somehow stronger because the tenth amendment had not yet been ratified; the federal government was restricted to the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Madison referred to the tenth amendment as a declaration because he too saw that it was legally unnecessary.
Well they have always controlled my life and made shit difficult for me and I know the power the country wields. So right now I wouldn't say I fear it, but I fear something bad to set off some kind of revolution or social unrest which will give me a real reason to fear the gov't.
So to put it short, I don't fear them (yet) but I feel owned.
On January 26 2011 08:41 darmousseh wrote: Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
Wanting to abolish the tenth amendment because one believes it would make the federal government more efficient would not make one a socialist; it would make one a supporter of a unitary state.
Abolishing the tenth amendment would not actually make the federal government stronger anyway. The tenth amendment does not actually do anything. The federal government between 1788 and 1791 was not somehow stronger because the tenth amendment had not yet been ratified; the federal government was restricted to the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Madison referred to the tenth amendment as a declaration because he too saw that it was legally unnecessary.
This is some serious U.S. history lession for me, I liked most of the comments so far And is a unitary state so bad ? Or is is ist just that it wasnt founded that way. It does not need to be unitary at all, but thats not bad and neither do you say so to clear that. Well, no real idea where I am going at at the moment. :/
Edit : Lets watch Flash destroy Really really bad. Edit2: That was easy. For one of them. No spoiling here !
I can't seem to view it as 'fear of the government,' it's more like a 'fear my rights will be taken away,' and you can't really say 'the government' or characterize 'the government' as if it is a purely public entity independant from private interests. We have an incredibly strong nexus between moneyed interests and officeholders in our country.
Also, the line between patriot and loyalist has been blurred in our country, namely the word loyalist has been replaced by the word patriot.
Luddite: Do you feel like there is any chance of changing this ? Or do you actively try to change this (I know this is much to ask and do not want to hear specifics, I am just interested if you actually want to change the situation ) or do you have hope for change at least
Of course I want to change it. But it's a big task... there's so many things wrong with the government right now I don't know where to begin. Mostly I just try and learn about it as much as I can, and talk about it with anyone who will listen. But I don't expect it to change any time soon. I expect the government to go on trampling human rights for a long time, just like it always has.
You can vote out the politicians but you cant vote out big business. So really the people (read: CEOs) who are feeding the politicians with money stays in power. So no matter who gets elected to congress or whatever you have, they will, after some time, be controlled by big business. Thats why you should fear the government, because after the politicans are inside congress they will no longer listen to you but to the moneys that is provided by big business.
Maybe fear is not the correct word here but at least you shouldnt blindly trust the government and think they will do what the majority of the voteable population demands.
This isnt something new, this way of governing the state/nation has existed for many decades. The politicans and big business continously develop more and more advanced techniques so they can deceive everyone and make the population think that what the government is doing is infact what the majority of the population demands. But really what happens is just that they are serving big business.
A Prince should therefore disregard the reproach of being thought cruel where it enables him to keep his subjects united and obedient. For he who quells disorder by a very few signal examples will in the end be more merciful than he who from too great leniency permits things to take their course and so to result in rapine and bloodshed; for these hurt the whole State, whereas the severities of the Prince injure individuals only.
The only crime in America (and elsewhere in the world for that matter) is to be poor. If you have money, you can get away with murder. A poor homeless dude and you better watch out where you park your shopping cart. So no, there's no fear of our government especially for those with some money.
American government isn't inefficient at all; Just don't be middle class!
I fear what they would do to us in an open revolt. I also fear how much power the government has. Another thing I fear is our war mongering attitude and arrogance. But fear of the government itself no not at all, they can only do what we allow, unfortunately that's about whatever they want to do. So all in all I think I fear the people.
On January 26 2011 23:20 exeexe wrote: You can vote out the politicians but you cant vote out big business. So really the people (read: CEOs) who are feeding the politicians with money stays in power. So no matter who gets elected to congress or whatever you have, they will, after some time, be controlled by big business. Thats why you should fear the government, because after the politicans are inside congress they will no longer listen to you but to the moneys that is provided by big business.
Maybe fear is not the correct word here but at least you shouldnt blindly trust the government and think they will do what the majority of the voteable population demands.
This isnt something new, this way of governing the state/nation has existed for many decades. The politicans and big business continously develop more and more advanced techniques so they can deceive everyone and make the population think that what the government is doing is infact what the majority of the population demands. But really what happens is just that they are serving big business. is that a coincidence?
I am not quite sure how to respond as I am not sure if you are talking about the U.S. or about denmark.
Of course there will always be private interests that you can nothing do about but you can actually plan demonstations or meet up with people and discuss those problems. My only problem is when people think that a lot is going wrong and then shut down and keep in to themselves. Thats not good. You should never blindly trust your government of course, I think there are very few people one can actually trust. But when you really think that your government only serves big businesses I can see why you do not trust it. But I see why you want to change anything about it - and I bet you are not alone. Thats the thing. If there actually is something about your government that is messed up, it is your duty to try and correct it. I know this is easy said, but thats how it is. And there can be a lot more done that most people think. When everyone and does not speak about the matters, nothing will happen. Easy as that.
On January 27 2011 02:59 Bajadulce wrote: The only crime in America (and elsewhere in the world for that matter) is to be poor. If you have money, you can get away with murder. A poor homeless dude and you better watch out where you park your shopping cart. So no, there's no fear of our government especially for those with some money.
American government isn't inefficient at all; Just don't be middle class!
Sarcastic obviously with the last part but I have to tell you that if the state controls a fair amount of the basic needs and regulates it, everyone can at least live at a decent leven. Everyone who wants more than that, can try to do so. Everyone who can well live without a house on the sea, a second car or a lot more, can stay low. Also a big problem I see in the U.S. : In austria I play 0 Euros right now for my studies, in fact I get payed 160 € + 450 € for family + study allowance. From the tax payers. I study political science in Vienna on the main university, and it does not have a bad reputation at all. In fact, it even has a good one. In the U.S. you have to spend a big amount of money and you HAVE to work to pay it off. I dont.
On January 27 2011 05:06 muse5187 wrote: I fear what they would do to us in an open revolt. I also fear how much power the government has. Another thing I fear is our war mongering attitude and arrogance. But fear of the government itself no not at all, they can only do what we allow, unfortunately that's about whatever they want to do. So all in all I think I fear the people.
You fear what they would do to you if YOU engaged in an open revolt against your government ? That is a tough situation as they should most likely sustain the status quo. And of course the government has the power, that is what they are elected for. And I also fear those mindless zombies living next to me
On January 27 2011 09:26 GreatFall wrote: You could actually be denied US citizenship if you claim to be communist. Just letting you know...
Thats plain ridiculous and not compatible with most international laws/treatys/proclamations/resolutions ... you name it. Is this for real ? Did not know that. Interesting,
Btw did any of you know that Marx thought his precious revolution would either be in germany or the U.S.A. ? Funny thing ...- "Russia ? Well, why not." original quote
As an American I don't fear our government, but I do hold a certain amount of contempt for the fact that it has so many faults. Then I consider how much worse it could be and I think perhaps it isn't so bad.
I fear that its them leading us. How many spy satellites, aircraft carriers, nuclear missles, airport xrays and marines does it take to prevent terrorism?