|
Please dont close it, not a troll and not in for attention either. I seriously want to know this and hope that someone can answer me.
I read all the pages of the [US] House Passes Healthcare Repeal mentioned thread and I did not want to get into the discussion as I have no REAL idea about the american health care / insurance situation, neither did I want to comment the sense of "lost causes" in the U.S. house of representatives passed when you only have 2 parties present in it and you know how it is going to end (unlike other countries with more parties and the reasonable possibility to form short-term alliances with other partys to get a bill through that you see reasonable for your people even though you might have formed a coalition with another party to rule the country for the period of time you were elected for and disagree with the former).
I only have a question for the american citizens here that always bugged me deep down in my heart. Some of you (most of you? - in this kind of thread at least as far as I know [ and I read all of "those" threads I can find]) always seem to argue THE PEOPLE against THE GOVERNMENT as if all this was some kind of court case.
Life is not a court case, political decisions are not a court cases either.
I see myself as part of the austrian people AND government as I cannot see how they differ. Although I do not work in the actual or imagined "government" that rules over YOU, the people. We,the people elect them (some of the people ) and we can also bring those persons that we elect down again.
Its not a mystified being that has to be feard, it is your neighbour who is in the senate and your friend who works at the local police station. The people form the government and if it has come so far that you are afraid of your own government and dont want it in your life, you might have to rethink a lot. (And as I am writing this I realize .. has this always been the case in the U.S. ? How come .. Its not like some day the government just appeared and everyone accepted it but thought "better not let them into my life, I am sure this is evil witchcraft)
I never understood this. And if you actually say that democracy works different in your country than in others and that I do not understand the united states citizen and the government they run, I cannot really argue against you. You can also say that I am a leftist european douche who thinks that all life has to be saved and that trees have to be hugged, I can live with that.
Hell I am even a communist (does it really matter what sort and if I believe that there has been no communist government yet?), so bring it on. But I actually dont want to bash your style of life, most cultures differ in many ways and I accept that. Does not mean I like them, does not mean I would even accept their invitation to visit (although I most likely would, to see how it really is there and to make up my own mind unbiased of things that I read/heard although most of our opinions are second hand as we cannot be everywhere and life is short.. But it does mean that we all can talk and argue and learn from each other (or not, WAR).
Its not like the EU is perfect in any way (as if, trolo) - permanent changes are the best part of democracy. We do not have the same kind of democracy that we had 50 years ago and in 20 years it will have changed again.
This really is not criticizing a country (a people) I know very little about (well I read a lot and I like to read but reading can only give you so much information - at some point you have to at least talk to U.S. citizens or go over there and experience it personally).
I just want to know if there is a reason behind the fear of the government, this demonized being that cannot be controlled and does what it wants to do and ALWAYS is against you.
And I know sometimes I get a little bit sarcastic so dont quote me on my written words and say "Dear Tufas, I do not think that any of our founder fathers thought that the government was full of witchcraft. Regards, Joe Sixpack."
Take it with a grain of salt and some humor, then try to answer this question that always bugged me .. Why do some of you (a lot, does not even have to be the majority - hypothetical 30% of the U.S. is still a lot of people) fear your (own) government ?
And if you feel that I am unfair to the american members of TL.net as you have the same fear regarding your government and I had the nerves to not speak about any other countries, feel free to post as well of course.
Sincerely, Tufas
PS: I really apologize for my grammar and the english non-typical nested sentence, thats how us german speakers roll. I tried to use as much american english opposed to british english as my knowledge allowed me to.
PS PS: I dont like TL:DR. Either read it or do not read it. And if you read all this and respond with "I do not exactly fear my government, I just do not want to have it in my life that much" - please, you know what I mean.
PEACE
|
I am afraid of what might come.
Dont hurt me.
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Its not a bad question.
But the American government has primarily been set up to be adversarial, in that every branch of the government is set up to check some function of the other. I suppose you could explain this by "absolute power absolutely corrupts".
Its not a mystified being that has to be feard, it is your neighbour who is in the senate and your friend who works at the local police station.
Collectively, it also a group of people that often wish to dictate how I should behave, and how I should live my life. In essence, forcing people into paying for a healthcare system that is neither just nor efficient (well, is "worse than the status quo") is exactly that. There's a certain egalitarian streak in the American population that recoils when others crown themselves moral and intellectual superiors and impose all sorts of regulations in the hopes of creating a better world that inconveniently doesn't match up to reality. Its neatly encapsulated in the common belief that "Congress would be better off if they picked names out of a telephone book".
To answer your question: probably not "fear", but a healthy adversarial relationship.
PS:
I see myself as part of the austrian people AND government as I cannot see how they differ.
You self-identify as a communist, so look at the "workers paradises" of the world (and in the dustbins of history) and see how the government differs from the people.
|
I don't fear our government much at all. A lot of Americans take for granted the things that the government does for citizens at the relatively low cost (compared to other countries) in terms of tax money. As for law enforcement and control, the government is pretty incompetent, and most people that suffer from "crackdowns" probably deserve it. Like in many other countries, Americans on the whole commit tiny crimes every few hours and think nothing of it. There is the law in the books and the law in daily life.
The most damage done by the US government, in my opinion, is through neglect, rather than active censorship or denial of rights.
|
Nah, just harbor a profound contempt and distrust for.
I have several friends who are working to become politicians of some variety. Dunno why I'd fear them.
In a democratic nation, if fearing government is a legitimate stance, I don't think its even democratic anymore.
|
Governments should always be feared, challenged, and hated. You'd be a fool if you didn't.
|
The key issue is many Americans (those on the right side of the political spectrum) believe in limited government. The reasons for this may include fear, but there are other reasons as well:
- belief that the government is inefficient due to monopolization/lack of competition
- belief that free market principals (i.e. private companies competing) provide the consumer with the best options, even in areas such as insurance and healthcare.
- belief that increased government control/oversight will lead to even more government control/oversight (i.e. the slippery slope), leading to decreased personal freedoms
- belief that fiscally, a smaller government is more responsible (spend less on expensive/expansive programs)
There are almost certainly more reasons, but this should give you an idea at least.
|
Answer to the first person ..
I am with you on the mutual monitoring as we cannot trust everyone to do what he is supposed to do. It is like this in every government of course, as people have flaws and are not perfect. I dig that.
Well as I mentioned I cannot really talk about your heal care situation ( I assume you are U.S. citizen) so I cannot really argue specifics ..
I personally think the government speak: us, the people should and can regulate certain basic needs and I count health care to this basic needs for once.
I mean you are not afraid that they might control the roads and dont let you drive on them ..
"Congress would be better off if they picked names out of a telephone book". I like that very much, reminds me of antic Athen where they chose random male citizens into political positions and paid them. (well did not work out that well but hey)
edit :
On January 26 2011 07:07 419 wrote:
You self-identify as a communist, so look at the "workers paradises" of the world (and in the dustbins of history) and see how the government differs from the people.
I also said that there has not been a communist government yet and if you ask me, in the duskbin of history there is also a lot of "democracy" that does not deserve that name at all and is missleading in many ways compared to the democracies we have now(one small example to proove my point, woman voting right)
|
I won't argue with whether or not I think the way the EU is ran is better or worse than the USA (especially since it's just a political and economic body and not an actually country like the USA) but I would say there are things I like and dislike about the USA compared to Europe (currently studying in Spain).
I don't fear my government but what I do fear is the ignorance of the public. Too many people will latch onto the radical speeches of politicians or just merely accept the political beliefs of their friends or family. I see it all too often that people defend a political point of view based on spewing out "facts" (can't really trust just one media source's point of view) and blatantly on a desire to be accepted by those around them.
Sure, I sometimes fear what will happen when the political opposition takes power in the government but at the same time it's one of the reasons I love the USA. The people truly decide who will be in power. (Not saying that this isn't true of other countries). However, it's the freedom to elect public officials that is also scary if said officials gain office based on ignorant votes.
PS I hate "Vote of DIE!" posters...Should say "Vote while well-informed or don't vote at all".
|
The US is much nicer to its own citizens than to those abroad. Certainly it may be abusive and extremely corrupt, and there's plenty of cases of unjust government action, but most people aren't affected. Elected officials will lose the next election if they do something too questionable. Certainly far less to fear than from a government like China.
As far as trusting the government, that's a whole different story.
|
I'm wary of the government. I fear the nuts who believe we need arms against the government.
|
On January 26 2011 07:28 Adila wrote:
I'm wary of the government. I fear the nuts who believe we need arms against the government.
You mean nuts like the framers of the Bill of Rights?
Edit: I don't think I understand your post so nevermind.
|
Anyone bust out this quote yet?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
That was Thomas Jefferson...
I don't fear our government, but I can see things moving in that direction. 
|
Of all the people in the world, American's should probably be the least afraid of their government.
God help you if you're Iranian though.
|
On January 26 2011 07:11 Flakes wrote:
I don't fear our government much at all. A lot of Americans take for granted the things that the government does for citizens at the relatively low cost (compared to other countries) in terms of tax money. As for law enforcement and control, the government is pretty incompetent, and most people that suffer from "crackdowns" probably deserve it. Like in many other countries, Americans on the whole commit tiny crimes every few hours and think nothing of it. There is the law in the books and the law in daily life.
The most damage done by the US government, in my opinion, is through neglect, rather than active censorship or denial of rights.
Of course everyone commits trivial offense .. I dont know anyone who doesnt. Besides, its nearly impossible not to.
But by neglect you then say that your government is not intervening or controlling enough or they DO intervene, just not correctly and thus wasting ressources ?
Two great posts directly together :
On January 26 2011 07:15 Half wrote:
Nah, just harbor a profound contempt and distrust for.
I have several friends who are working to become politicians of some variety. Dunno why I'd fear them.
In a democratic nation, if fearing government is a legitimate stance, I don't think its even democratic anymore.
On January 26 2011 07:15 Romantic wrote:
Governments should always be feared, challenged, and hated. You'd be a fool if you didn't.
But I think you should work WITH the people YOU send to represent YOUR interests (of course they elect/choose others and you can not vote for the majority of people they introduce - another reason for a transparent government but thats another story .. dont reply on that)
On January 26 2011 07:17 aidnai wrote:
The key issue is many Americans (those on the right side of the political spectrum) believe in limited government. The reasons for this may include fear, but there are other reasons as well:
- belief that the government is inefficient due to monopolization/lack of competition
- belief that free market principals (i.e. private companies competing) provide the consumer with the best options, even in areas such as insurance and healthcare.
- belief that increased government control/oversight will lead to even more government control/oversight (i.e. the slippery slope), leading to decreased personal freedoms
- belief that fiscally, a smaller government is more responsible (spend less on expensive/expansive programs)
There are almost certainly more reasons, but this should give you an idea at least.
Well I think basic needs should be regulated to assure that they get taken care about but I accept that other people think differently. By limiting your government you limit the people you send in to work for your good - but I know that there are different approaches. To "those on the right side of the political spectrum" i just bluntly and randomly say republicans - I still dont see how you do not want to trust those who... reign at the highest plains.
On January 26 2011 07:21 discipled_iu wrote:
I won't argue with whether or not I think the way the EU is ran is better or worse than the USA (especially since it's just a political and economic body and not an actually country like the USA) but I would say there are things I like and dislike about the USA compared to Europe (currently studying in Spain).
I don't fear my government but what I do fear is the ignorance of the public. Too many people will latch onto the radical speeches of politicians or just merely accept the political beliefs of their friends or family. I see it all too often that people defend a political point of view based on spewing out "facts" (can't really trust just one media source's point of view) and blatantly on a desire to be accepted by those around them.
Sure, I sometimes fear what will happen when the political opposition takes power in the government but at the same time it's one of the reasons I love the USA. The people truly decide who will be in power. (Not saying that this isn't true of other countries). However, it's the freedom to elect public officials that is also scary if said officials gain office based on ignorant votes.
PS I hate "Vote of DIE!" posters...Should say "Vote while well-informed or don't vote at all".
Rest assured that it is not a U.S. phenomenon that people often vote on .. underinformed and not well self-reflected opinions. We (or I) have the same problem with a lot of austrian citizens.
A good way to work against that is a very well formed and thought-through free public education .. in my opinion.
On January 26 2011 07:21 Lightwip wrote:
The US is much nicer to its own citizens than to those abroad. Certainly it may be abusive and extremely corrupt, and there's plenty of cases of unjust government action, but most people aren't affected. Elected officials will lose the next election if they do something too questionable. Certainly far less to fear than from a government like China.
As far as trusting the government, that's a whole different story.
Well the US should care about its citizens more then those of other countries (or lets say at least differently, I feel thats better put) - the only problem there is is war of course. When you (sorry for all those who dont see it that way) invade other countries, you force yourself to help them rebuild, especially if you were the aggressor. At least in the 21st century 
I am really sorry for all that bad grammar .. reading it the 4th and 5th time I still find many errors and I did not even get to correct my response to your responses
|
Would you say that it is a very republican thing to do ? Be afraid of your government ? Or is that absolutely false and does in no way represent the political reality ..
I always thought this was more wide-spread than republican fear mongering about everything that keeps you working(grain of salt, remember?) but maybe I was wrong. I just thought there was more behind it :/
Well, thanks for your responses so far.
|
The US sovernment better fear americans or else we americans aren't doing our job properly.
The united states is a very philosophical place. We have so much diversity that the citizens cannot agree even on simple cultural principles. In many countries, societies can exist peacefully since all of the citizens are born and raised with similar ideologies and thoughts about the role of government and all outsiders are fringe minority who either get along or get out. The united states cannot afford this luxury. Whites are basically the largest minority and whites are generally not even close to having similar cultural experiences. The united states is also the third largest country in the world and the largest country to not have 90% or more of a single ethnicity.
There is only one other country that is remotely close to the US which is india, but that suffers from a caste system so I still cannot compare. The only other comparison is the EU, but the EU lacks the authority to override its member states.
In the US, state government dictates and enforces most of the laws. When you live in a state you are basically a citizen of that state. The united states is a collection of states with a single goal of mutual protection. States elect leaders via the electoral college and those leaders run a government for the sole purpose of protecting the land from foreign invaders and enforcing supreme law.
Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
|
The only thing that i am afraid of is one side taking control of all 3 parts (pres., senate, house). This always leads to terrible decisions being made, and always hurts the people. I have faith in them if a balance of power is restored, but otherwise, not at all.
|
Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one.
How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either.
On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote:
Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear ..
Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff.
Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal )
But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
|
On January 26 2011 08:20 Tufas wrote:Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one. How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either. Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote:
Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else. I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear .. Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff. Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal ) But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
No we are too big of a country to be run by a single centralized government and we have too much diversity even among the states. If you compare say california to nevada, they are very similar, but if you compare california to texas, there are a ton of differences.
Americans are free to live where they want and often people identify themselves by the state they grew up. I'm californian, I have friends who are texan, etc, but a lot of people also identify with the US, but only to foreigners. The differences might not be as drastic as the EU, but they still exist.
The original united states was a very loose confederation of states and has only really become more centralized when the government made the federal reserve. Without the federal reserve to finance all of the wars and government spending, the federal government would probably still be really small.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
