The majority of Americans do not fear the government. In fact, I don't think anyone in their right mind really fears the government. Some people are DISPLEASED with it. But people definitely don't fear American government. The government in America would never hurt it's own citizens. I think most people express displeasure at the inefficiency of government, but most rational people know that the government will never threaten it's own people.
About the political parties, the two U.S. parties are basically the same, with only minor differences. It's very unlikely one party would seize control, but even if it happened, things would likely stay the same, because they would still have to fear reelection in two years.
Also, the opinions of TL are highly skewed and not your average American.
And also, most people aren't going to make posts about how great the government is, because only the negative aspects make for good news and discussion.
In my opinion, the government doesn't even affect myself. I will vote for people that I like and agree with, but overall, the government plays a very small part in my life.
On January 26 2011 08:20 Tufas wrote: Just to put it out there : I tried to not bash on the U.S. and be assured that if anyone opens a thread on austrian politics and the recent migration of socialist + middle-ish voters to right wing parties, I would bash on austria non-stop as there are so many thing going wrong right now. I do not have a moral highground at all and also do not aspire to find one.
How can you have so much diversity represented by two parties .. I never got that one either.
On January 26 2011 08:03 darmousseh wrote: Imagine for a second that the EU decided to force everyone to have access to free health on the same level and the EU put a 10% income tax in order to pay for it, but that the tax % was raised based on income levels and with no consideration for the wealth of the country, i.e. someone from germany pays the same as someone from serbia. This would be cruelly unfair. This is how many americans feel about the recent health care legislation. Republicans want to help the poor, but they want to do it on a state by state level in order to maintain the sovereignty for the states. The republicans are similar to nationalists in the UK who don't want to be part of the EU or nationalists in other european countries who believe that the EU is being run by the IMF. Democrats are akin to everyone else.
I am glad you wrote this, it helps me understand a lot. Although this is very recent and does not explain the source of the fear .. Thanks a lot, I understand a lot more through that simple example. If this is the situation in the U.S. as you represent it, I understand .. but I always thought the american people hold together and all that good stuff. Is reality more like I am from Washington (state) and you are from California ? I mean we have the same thing here ... "oh you are from that part of austria .. lololo" but we care about them non the less (okay 8 million people in austria - big deal )
But if it is like you say, may be regulated better state by state. The only thing then is to assure that it IS regulated state by state and swiftly as I heard that a lot of people have problems with their health care.
This also makes the parties a lot differently focused. Americans tend to focus on several very important issues and general philosophy rather than on small things. The federal government makes decisions about war, diplomacy and some domestic spending. State governments run the schools, and welfare. There are many, like myself, who believe that social programs on the state level are fine, but that are a waste on the federal level. This is why you have republican governors who support supposedly democratic provisions for state government and vice versa.
The biggest issues are the following 1. Federal tax level (and spending) 2. Size and role of military 3. Abortion
Democrats say 1. Increase taxes to keep programs alive. 2. Reduce size of military during times of peace 3. Abortion should stay legal
Republicans say 1. Decrease programs so that taxes don't go up. 2. Keep the military always ready even during peace 3. Abortion should be illegal.
Other than that, republicans and democrats are very similar on a ton of different ideas. Republicans are slowly becoming more libertarian too since the failure of bush and the relaxing of high moral standards espoused by the baby boomers. Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
A former professor of mine lived in the U.S. in the 80 - very late 90s and he always said that americans have only 2 parties for a lot do not really care about them .. they vote their state representatives (or senators, I am not sure anymore) on their actions and then on their ideas, not on their color (red or blue) - a word by word translation I was never sure if he was trolling us or not - that guy had the best humor in the world (diplomat .. all of them a bunch of wackos)
Where are most of your laws made anyway ? Or set into order .. Your state that you live in or the central government in washington (pretty sure it was washington :D ) I guess that there are a bunch of basic laws that are country wide and then every state can work on the refinement / small allowed changes ..
Do you differ between your state and the "nation-wide" government ? I know that there IS a difference, no need to tell me that. But do you actually talk like "oh a new nation-wide law has been made .. lets hope our state does something against it" .. so do you actually take them as 2 different parts ? And where this is leading - are the people afraid of their state or of this maybe abstract building in washington that rules over them.
On January 26 2011 08:36 Enervate wrote: The majority of Americans do not fear the government. In fact, I don't think anyone in their right mind really fears the government. Some people are DISPLEASED with it. But people definitely don't fear American government.
I know that there is no basic FEAR of the government and I also tried to say that in the blog.
On January 26 2011 06:59 Tufas wrote:
PS PS: And if you read all this and respond with "I do not exactly fear my government, I just do not want to have it in my life that much" - please, you know what I mean.
On January 26 2011 08:36 Enervate wrote:
Also, the opinions of TL are highly skewed and not your average American.
And also, most people aren't going to make posts about how great the government is, because only the negative aspects make for good news and discussion.
I know that TL.net is not at all representative in age, race and education .. but when 10 people respons and you take it with a slight suspiciousness, you might actually get some good information out of it. Well I also did not want to hear how great the government is (if it is or not, maybe as is it), I wanted to know why some (and I think a fair bunch) of people seem to "fear" their government or at least not have the biggest affection towards it.
This also makes the parties a lot differently focused. Americans tend to focus on several very important issues and general philosophy rather than on small things. The federal government makes decisions about war, diplomacy and some domestic spending. State governments run the schools, and welfare. There are many, like myself, who believe that social programs on the state level are fine, but that are a waste on the federal level. This is why you have republican governors who support supposedly democratic provisions for state government and vice versa.
The biggest issues are the following 1. Federal tax level (and spending) 2. Size and role of military 3. Abortion
Democrats say 1. Increase taxes to keep programs alive. 2. Reduce size of military during times of peace 3. Abortion should stay legal
Republicans say 1. Decrease programs so that taxes don't go up. 2. Keep the military always ready even during peace 3. Abortion should be illegal.
Other than that, republicans and democrats are very similar on a ton of different ideas. Republicans are slowly becoming more libertarian too since the failure of bush and the relaxing of high moral standards espoused by the baby boomers. Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
3. I mean "us" europeans (EU at least,but I am pretty sure that I can legit write europeans) have a hard time arguing about abortion .. but from other TL thread that focused on the U.S. like how to foreigners think about u.s. politics, I got that abortion is not that big of a discussion in the U.S. and no one actually thinks that this law is going to be changed and abortion is going to be illegal agian.
1. Well I can only bring on my point of view but thats not going to help.
2. Well I know that the U.S. plans on disengaging from the middle-east (or allready is!) - but you actually seem to have a lot of war, when I am allowed to say that. If you want to spend your money like that in the future, you might as well keep it ... for what ever reason . (oil or not to oil, thats the question.) Sorry, I do not want to even start.. it leads to nothing. Dont respond to that .... (and I could just delete it and noone would ever know I wrote it and by not deleting it it seems like I want you to respons, but dont.)
I don't see the US government as malicious. Merely powerful and sometimes (many times) incompetent. There's collateral damage when a big guy is clumsy, and sometimes that damage is the citizens.
So yes, I'm afraid of the US government in about the same way that I'm afraid of lightning.
Two different ways to answer that question. Some people fear government, any government- those are the tea partier types who are stockpiling guns and want to stop paying any taxes. But others (like me) just fear the U.S. government as it currently exists. It's influenced so much by rich corporate interests, while doing so little to help regular people. And as we've seen recently in the case of Bradley Manning, it as the power to throw people into prison without even a trial, and basically torture them there in solitary confinement. We have one of the world's toughest prison systems and highest inprisonment rates. I'd say that's good reason to fear the government.
sc4k, well we all know those citizens who may not even know what parties there are.
Luddite: Do you feel like there is any chance of changing this ? Or do you actively try to change this (I know this is much to ask and do not want to hear specifics, I am just interested if you actually want to change the situation ) or do you have hope for change at least
On January 26 2011 08:44 Tufas wrote: A former professor of mine lived in the U.S. in the 80 - very late 90s and he always said that americans have only 2 parties for a lot do not really care about them .. they vote their state representatives (or senators, I am not sure anymore) on their actions and then on their ideas, not on their color (red or blue) - a word by word translation I was never sure if he was trolling us or not - that guy had the best humor in the world (diplomat .. all of them a bunch of wackos)
Where are most of your laws made anyway ? Or set into order .. Your state that you live in or the central government in washington (pretty sure it was washington :D ) I guess that there are a bunch of basic laws that are country wide and then every state can work on the refinement / small allowed changes ..
Do you differ between your state and the "nation-wide" government ? I know that there IS a difference, no need to tell me that. But do you actually talk like "oh a new nation-wide law has been made .. lets hope our state does something against it" .. so do you actually take them as 2 different parts ? And where this is leading - are the people afraid of their state or of this maybe abstract building in washington that rules over them.
There are no nation-wide laws. The government can only create laws that affect governments or prevent states from enacting certain laws. The only law the government has ever made that affected the whole nation is the prohibition law back in the 1920s to ban alcohol. It was later revoked. Marijuana possession is still a federal crime, but is currently being fought in the states. Most of the federal government involves regulating certain commercial activities and immigration. Public schooling is partially paid for by the US government, but the states do everything other than that.
Most laws like forbiding a certain activity or behaviour are on the state or county level. Gay marriage and marajuana possession is an example which is being fought for in all of the different states. Eventually polygamy will be fought for too. Most of these issues end up in the supreme court which usually rules in the favor of more freedom. States cannot deprive citizens of their rights and it is the job of the supreme court to ensure this.
Here's how different it is. The united states doesn't have an official language. Most states have adopted english or english/spanish, but hawaii includes hawaiin in their official languages. There are several states which post all government information in both english and spanish. This is why english literacy is not necessarily a requirement for being a US citizen.
I would say that 50% of my day to day life is affected by city laws, 40% by state, and 10% by the federal government. State taxes have been hurting me a lot more than federal taxes recently.
Although I knew that there is no official language, I thought that more than half of the states adoptet english or bilingual-trilingual as "official" languages starting from the late 80s . I think this is a very meltingpot-ish thing to do, and I like that there is no official language although I always thought it was strange as it was clearly founded by english speaking man and woman. (13 colonies were english - but you can argue that the U.S. was not founded there :D )
Well, you are very informing and thats good but I think I will not get much more to my original question.
On January 26 2011 08:41 darmousseh wrote: Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
Wanting to abolish the tenth amendment because one believes it would make the federal government more efficient would not make one a socialist; it would make one a supporter of a unitary state.
Abolishing the tenth amendment would not actually make the federal government stronger anyway. The tenth amendment does not actually do anything. The federal government between 1788 and 1791 was not somehow stronger because the tenth amendment had not yet been ratified; the federal government was restricted to the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Madison referred to the tenth amendment as a declaration because he too saw that it was legally unnecessary.
Well they have always controlled my life and made shit difficult for me and I know the power the country wields. So right now I wouldn't say I fear it, but I fear something bad to set off some kind of revolution or social unrest which will give me a real reason to fear the gov't.
So to put it short, I don't fear them (yet) but I feel owned.
On January 26 2011 08:41 darmousseh wrote: Democrats on the other hand are becoming more socialist to the point where many of my friends now believe that certain amendments (specifically the 10th amendment) should be abolished in order for the federal government to run the country more efficiently.
Wanting to abolish the tenth amendment because one believes it would make the federal government more efficient would not make one a socialist; it would make one a supporter of a unitary state.
Abolishing the tenth amendment would not actually make the federal government stronger anyway. The tenth amendment does not actually do anything. The federal government between 1788 and 1791 was not somehow stronger because the tenth amendment had not yet been ratified; the federal government was restricted to the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Madison referred to the tenth amendment as a declaration because he too saw that it was legally unnecessary.
This is some serious U.S. history lession for me, I liked most of the comments so far And is a unitary state so bad ? Or is is ist just that it wasnt founded that way. It does not need to be unitary at all, but thats not bad and neither do you say so to clear that. Well, no real idea where I am going at at the moment. :/
Edit : Lets watch Flash destroy Really really bad. Edit2: That was easy. For one of them. No spoiling here !
I can't seem to view it as 'fear of the government,' it's more like a 'fear my rights will be taken away,' and you can't really say 'the government' or characterize 'the government' as if it is a purely public entity independant from private interests. We have an incredibly strong nexus between moneyed interests and officeholders in our country.
Also, the line between patriot and loyalist has been blurred in our country, namely the word loyalist has been replaced by the word patriot.
Luddite: Do you feel like there is any chance of changing this ? Or do you actively try to change this (I know this is much to ask and do not want to hear specifics, I am just interested if you actually want to change the situation ) or do you have hope for change at least
Of course I want to change it. But it's a big task... there's so many things wrong with the government right now I don't know where to begin. Mostly I just try and learn about it as much as I can, and talk about it with anyone who will listen. But I don't expect it to change any time soon. I expect the government to go on trampling human rights for a long time, just like it always has.
You can vote out the politicians but you cant vote out big business. So really the people (read: CEOs) who are feeding the politicians with money stays in power. So no matter who gets elected to congress or whatever you have, they will, after some time, be controlled by big business. Thats why you should fear the government, because after the politicans are inside congress they will no longer listen to you but to the moneys that is provided by big business.
Maybe fear is not the correct word here but at least you shouldnt blindly trust the government and think they will do what the majority of the voteable population demands.
This isnt something new, this way of governing the state/nation has existed for many decades. The politicans and big business continously develop more and more advanced techniques so they can deceive everyone and make the population think that what the government is doing is infact what the majority of the population demands. But really what happens is just that they are serving big business.
A Prince should therefore disregard the reproach of being thought cruel where it enables him to keep his subjects united and obedient. For he who quells disorder by a very few signal examples will in the end be more merciful than he who from too great leniency permits things to take their course and so to result in rapine and bloodshed; for these hurt the whole State, whereas the severities of the Prince injure individuals only.
The only crime in America (and elsewhere in the world for that matter) is to be poor. If you have money, you can get away with murder. A poor homeless dude and you better watch out where you park your shopping cart. So no, there's no fear of our government especially for those with some money.
American government isn't inefficient at all; Just don't be middle class!