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On January 14 2011 08:36 Raeleigh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 08:34 LuckyFool wrote:
I'm masters league and it's gay. I miss my old diamond division of idra/select/tt1/drewbie... now I'm in a scrub division and my points are so much lower... dunno where anyone stands anymore. totally makes laddering unappealing to me I'm just playing customs for my practice now, screw this convoluted ladder system, what ever happened to iccups system that was fine... I don't understand why people get so upset that they're not in the same league as idra/select/drewbie anymore. Yeah, it means the level of play is higher, and OH BOY YOU MIGHT GET YOU PLAY THEM!!~!~!~!!!! But like.. Unless you're as good as them, you're going to be lower in the Masters League compared to them. =/
being in the same division does nothing about increasing the odds you will play them. Honestly divisions just spread players out into smaller bubbles instead of having one huge division and being ranked 40596th I'm 60th... I'll still play them all just as often.
I guess for me it's just preference, I mean when you check ur positioin in the division would you rather be working to pass drewbie or noob123?
Now every time I check my ladder I get to compare myself to noob123 instead of like tt1.
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On January 14 2011 08:42 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 08:36 Raeleigh wrote:On January 14 2011 08:34 LuckyFool wrote:
I'm masters league and it's gay. I miss my old diamond division of idra/select/tt1/drewbie... now I'm in a scrub division and my points are so much lower... dunno where anyone stands anymore. totally makes laddering unappealing to me I'm just playing customs for my practice now, screw this convoluted ladder system, what ever happened to iccups system that was fine... I don't understand why people get so upset that they're not in the same league as idra/select/drewbie anymore. Yeah, it means the level of play is higher, and OH BOY YOU MIGHT GET YOU PLAY THEM!!~!~!~!!!! But like.. Unless you're as good as them, you're going to be lower in the Masters League compared to them. =/ being in the same division does nothing about increasing the odds you will play them. Honestly divisions just spread players out into smaller bubbles instead of having one huge division and being ranked 40596th I'm 60th... I'll still play them all just as often. I guess for me it's just preference, I mean when you check ur positioin in the division would you rather be working to pass drewbie or noob123? Now every time I check my ladder I get to compare myself to noob123 instead of like tt1.
It's still silly though.
You should be pleased you're in Masters League. =/
Even if you're not in the same division. Like I said, they are quite a few skill levels above most players(durrr obviouslyy durrr), so I wouldn't think you'd get re-placed in the same division. Wouldn't make sense.
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On January 13 2011 21:32 Sayle wrote:
The problem with saying "just get into GM league then" is that the amount of dedication required is vastly different because GM vs masters is essentially professional vs (high level) amateur. GM league is going to be only the top 200 in each region. This is pretty much pro-gamer level, as a fair number of top 200 players get contracted into teams. Inori doesn't have the time to be a professional, he just wants there to be a competitive amateur level that takes an appropriate level of work and dedication to reach.
I still don't get this.
You're complaining about Blizzard catering to casuals, but you also want a new league between Masters and GM so that you don't have to spend the time to be a professional but still feel like you did something.
Well, too bad. I'm sure there are tons of people in the 200 who are nowhere near professional, especially outside of Korea. According to sc2ranks there are ~3000 people in masters on US. So what do you want? Demi-grand-masters, 1000 people? Double-plus-demi-grand-masters, 500 people?
I don't see how you can complain about Blizzard 'catering to casuals' when you literally want a league with just enough people to suit your personal interests. How about you go for number 1 in your division? Sure, it's not an absolute ranking, but apparently you just want to be a 'competitive amateur' anyway. When you're an amateur there's no difference in terms of having a goal between number 1 in your division and XXXX in your server.
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The problem is with the entire system. I understand entirely what the OP is saying.
I haven't laddered seriously in months. My rating was sitting at 1800 diamond, which as you know is pretty low at this point. However, my MMR was very high since when I was playing actively I was pretty high diamond. I figure that I should've been laddering so I could make it into master league, but I figure what the hell I'll just smash kids in diamond when I'm bored now.
I play 1 game and get promoted instantly. Apparently "active" meant different things to Blizzard than to me. Now I'm all happy that I'm not sitting in the now noob-ridden diamond league, but master league has almost no meaning to it.
The problem is, if you do it by points you actually are only promoting based on activity and not skill, so I can see why they chose MMR. I'm actually glad they did that over points, but neither system works.
The problem is this stupid matchmaking system that matches you based upon one rating and gives you another. Can't we just see our damn MMRs and trash this stupid bonus pool/point system stuff for master league? Sure, it makes those bronze kids feel better about themselves, but why the hell do we have this for a "competitive" league. Just give us MMR so we can see who is actually good and who isn't. The point of a ladder is to rank players from worst to best, not to make a way to gain arbitrary points. I think Blizzard forgot this when they were busy jacking off into their WoW money.
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On January 14 2011 12:05 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote:
The problem is with the entire system. I understand entirely what the OP is saying.
I haven't laddered seriously in months. My rating was sitting at 1800 diamond, which as you know is pretty low at this point. However, my MMR was very high since when I was playing actively I was pretty high diamond. I figure that I should've been laddering so I could make it into master league, but I figure what the hell I'll just smash kids in diamond when I'm bored now.
I play 1 game and get promoted instantly. Apparently "active" meant different things to Blizzard than to me. Now I'm all happy that I'm not sitting in the now noob-ridden diamond league, but master league has almost no meaning to it.
The problem is, if you do it by points you actually are only promoting based on activity and not skill, so I can see why they chose MMR. I'm actually glad they did that over points, but neither system works.
The problem is this stupid matchmaking system that matches you based upon one rating and gives you another. Can't we just see our damn MMRs and trash this stupid bonus pool/point system stuff for master league? Sure, it makes those bronze kids feel better about themselves, but why the hell do we have this for a "competitive" league. Just give us MMR so we can see who is actually good and who isn't. The point of a ladder is to rank players from worst to best, not to make a way to gain arbitrary points. I think Blizzard forgot this when they were busy jacking off into their WoW money.
active means you've played a game since update, that's why the reset will require 1 game, it just wants to see how many people are actually playing in an easy to test format
i don't know how you can say mmr doesn't work, the system is designed to face you against opponents of equal skill, i tend to find that to be the case, do you?
and you can't see mmr, because like everything else, it's probably a system that is relatively easy to manipulate if you can actually measure the effect that every possible move makes
as to my thoughts on the matter
i think masters is still an achievement to some degree, i understand the desire to put a lot of time into the game and practice and do all kinds of things to get good, but when it comes down to it, this system is designed by the game company and not a website that is used by a comparatively tiny number of people, simple truth is that regardless of the fact that you feel no satisfaction in that
my solution would be to use a system like sc2ranks, which will now accurately reflect everything, and just set goals for yourself, like i want to move up to top 1000 or whatever, it seems like there is going to be approximately 5500 people or so in masters by the time it's all said and done, just work from there
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Yeah ... im seeing masters with like 700 points. I myself only have 1300 and am always paired against 2400 players because of mmr? Whats the point of even having points then? It seems silly that after I stopped playing for 3 months I would still be playing people of 'similar' skill. It's not just an issue of how active people are and their real skill potential, but the fact that the longer the ladder stays up, the better higher point players become as they have remained active with new patches, developments, strategies, experience, and so on.
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I think its important to realize that no matter what the title of the league is, you can always continue to climb the ladder and progress. If you are winning a lot of games your MMR will improve and you will be matched against better players.
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On January 14 2011 14:49 Immaterial wrote:
I think its important to realize that no matter what the title of the league is, you can always continue to climb the ladder and progress. If you are winning a lot of games your MMR will improve and you will be matched against better players.
Yes, this is true. However, the point of the OP is that competitive players are often left in this rut once they reach diamond (and now masters) since they aren't likely going to reach top 200/grandmasters. Instead, players are trying to approximate skill with an constantly inflating amount of ladder points. Basically, it's a un-motivator.
Arguably, Blizzard should tweak the whole ladder to not end up placing competitively minded players, who are indeed a small subset of the casual population that represents their primary player base and income, into ill-defined categories and give them little to no rank-based incentives to advance past that. Obviously, blizzard is not obligated to do that, but former BW players understand that the iccup ladder gaged the skill of advanced players on a more intricate level than SC2 currently does. And, since the reaction of the more active player community (players who want to improve) will set the tone for game's lifetime and legacy, I personally think Blizzard should be paying a lot more attention because not catering to us could bite their brand in the ass.
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The problem is the skill gap in starcraft is mindblowing. The difference between a 2600 diamond and a 2200 diamond is huge, let alone the difference between diamond and masters or gold and silver. It was the same way in BW. A high D player on iccup rapes the shit out of a low D player. I don't understand why people feel the need to break all the rankings down into named divisions. I don't see any problem with the current setup for divisions (although I do have issues with the bonus pool)
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 16:13 AraqirG wrote:
The problem is the skill gap in starcraft is mindblowing. The difference between a 2600 diamond and a 2200 diamond is huge, let alone the difference between diamond and masters or gold and silver. It was the same way in BW. A high D player on iccup rapes the shit out of a low D player. I don't understand why people feel the need to break all the rankings down into named divisions. I don't see any problem with the current setup for divisions (although I do have issues with the bonus pool)
Actually, the problem is the opposite. The ICCup ladder worked very well not only because of the large skill gap between ranks, but also because of the stability of the ranking system (shaken up somewhat recently due the large number of players going to SC2). If you told me you were C+ on ICCup, I would have a very good idea of how skilled you are.
On the SC2 ladder, however, it's almost impossible to measure someone's skill. If you give me a 2600 diamond player and a 2200 diamond player, I honestly couldn't tell you who was better. I could make a guess taking into account their remaining bonus pools and what divisions they were in, but it would be just that: a guess. As people have already stated, the fact that true skill is only measured by MMR means that a 1000 point diamond players can actually be put against 2500 diamonds and still be considered even. Even the skill gap between leagues is questionable. After all, we hear plenty of stories of high gold players being placed in even matches against plats and low diamonds (although this could arguably be attributed to the promotion system).
As much as the ladder system is flawed, however, I think a large part of the problem is that the overall skill levels of players in SC2 isn't as stratified as it was in Broodwar. Someone made the point that Inori was basically demanding an extremely specific league with an entry requirement placed just above his level but below pro level, which would honestly probably only encompass a few thousand people and would even then not cater to everyone. I think this is a fair statement of the current situation. After all, on ICCup you could spend years of practice and only reach C rank, which is nowhere near the pro (or even high amateur) level. In SC2, you can get into masters in a couple of months.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 20:15 Inori wrote:
No, I don't want a league between Masters and GM, I want Masters to be harder to get into. You know, like Blizzard developers announced at Blizzcon. Top 2% of Diamond players, which would mean about 800-1000/region.
I think you misunderstood the original announcement It was the top 2% of all players, not just diamond. This would be the top 10% of diamond if the leagues were split evenly as Blizzard claims.
In any case, maybe you should accept the fact that the majority of SC2 players are bad, hence you are already in that elite top 2% :/
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got a quote for that?
You shouldn't think of it as being too easy to get in because you were placed in immediately after 1 game, your MMR was probably at a high level (high enough to be top 2%).
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I have to say I feel a lot like the OP of this post. My last SC2 game was 13 weeks ago - there was nothing to play for as I wasn't going to put in the effort to "go pro" and there was no functioning ladder. With the release of 1.2, I decided it would be fun to try to obtain Master League status. 20 games later as random (basically giving away freewins with one of the races as I can only play two of them well) using outdated strats and playing rusty, I get promoted.
I'm now left in the same state as 13 weeks ago - in the highest league possible with 10 Gazillion bonus points to make sure it is impossible to compare where I *really* stand unless I simply grind games as if this is WoW. I lack a goal once again, and will likely now stop playing for another 13 weeks (or however long it takes them to implement "Grand Master" league).
I cannot understate how much I hate SC2's ladder system and how much it depresses me that it ruins much of the competitive aspect of a great game (from my perspective, at least). ><
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divisions dont mean shit if we play people outside of your own division, and with hidden rating, your ladder rating is worthless, theres not mcuch sense of achievement in getting top of your division, i just want 1 big ladder per region 
if blizz caters to the casuals, sc2 is not a game to do so.
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Oddly, and funny enough I am a Diamond in ladder, because i can't be bothered to "inflate" my ladder points. I'd rather play custom games with the TL New York group, and get good feedback from my flaws. I play the Masters-league people from there, so I have no problems just not laddering. I know my skill level is Masters-level, so I don't really care if my ladder says i am or not. i dont have that much time to sit down and ladder all at once, and for me i need to get into the "groove" of ladder matches and play a bunch at once.
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EPT
