EPT
Masters, I'm disappoint
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
With the addition of a new league bronze / silver / gold are even more horrible and meaningless than they already were. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
Why, Blizzard, why do you keep catering to casual players?:/ because of $$ | ||
Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
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Moody
United States750 Posts
Yep. More people are casual players than "hard core gamers." Casual players pay Blizzard the same amount for the game as the "hard core" so why not cater to them? Gogo Activision and their money hungry, e-sport hating business managers. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
I mean, yeah, I can kinda see your point. They could have tweaked the percentages a bit better but you're really nitpicking here. Either set GM as your goal or don't. There is no reason not to. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On January 13 2011 02:11 Inori wrote: Like I said, I'm not good/active enough to get into gm. But I'm still competitive enough to actually want a challenge and something I could be proud of getting into. Not this.. LOL, so you're not good enough for Grandmaster league so you want a league harder than Master League and easier than GM league to get into? How can you complain that blizzard is catering to casuals when YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO CATER TO YOU, NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE TOP 200. | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
not logged on since 1.2 but hahahhaa. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=183608 | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Diamond people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Masters Bronze gone soon I bet | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 13 2011 03:04 fdsdfg wrote: Copper -> Plat people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Diamond people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Masters Bronze gone soon I bet I think people need to realize the difference between people who visit teamliquid.net and people who don't. There is a huge skill gap between someone who learned the game and someone who just plays for fun. The skill of players on teamliquid is significantly skewed towards diamond. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On January 13 2011 02:43 Grebliv wrote: lol, haha is masters seriously just ~mid diamond +. not logged on since 1.2 but hahahhaa. yes it is | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 13 2011 03:04 fdsdfg wrote: Copper -> Plat people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Diamond people didn't feel good enough about themselves Bronze -> Masters Bronze gone soon I bet Fast forward to Diamond -> Super Duper Grand Master Champions. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
rename: bronze => lower beginner silver => beginner gold => upper beginner platinum => D diamond => C masters => B grandmasters => A people saying that they are B rank 2000, is probably more fitting than saying they are "MASTOR WooooOOooo" 2000. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On January 13 2011 02:01 Inori wrote: Why, Blizzard, why do you keep catering to casual players?:/ Statistically, most players are casual players. Blizzard makes more money selling the game to casual players than it does fostering competition in the top ranks (who, admittadly, inspire a few more casual players to buy the game as well). On the side note, I think there's always going to be a huge skill gap at both the top and bottom. Top level diamond do some of the most amazing play I've ever seen while I (in my gold league glory) could probably take down a few lower level Diamonds. I see it as the top of the ladder increasing much faster than the bottom of Diamond. With Bronze it's a little different. The league ranges players who have no idea what they're doing to those who have broad strategies and a little bit of practice. As the climate of the game changes and people get better, then the ceiling to get out of bronze (and the rest of the leagues) increases. It reminds me of my uber-noob days in iccup where I played at D level barely understanding a build order to, a year later, remaining in D yet understanding the strategies and being very well-practiced. No one WANTS to be in the lowest league, so I feel the best way to circumvent the issue is put a lot of people into it. However, I agree that the highest league should have a set cap instead of a percentage of players. Maybe that will be fixed with grandmasters? | ||
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Ursad0n
United States523 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 13 2011 03:08 Kalingingsong wrote: ultimately it just means ppl who are 'hard core' just have to work around these problems (such as ranking systems geared towards casual gamers). if something like sc2ranks can track wins and losses, I don't see why better players can eventually create their own ranking system that uses different calculations etc... It doesn't track who you beat and who you lose to. | ||
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SlimeBagly
356 Posts
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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DND_Enkil
Sweden598 Posts
If you want a higher goal aim for #1 in your division or something, if you manage that aim for GM. Master league is the top 2%, this does not mean that the players in that league is amazing, it just means that there is a shitload of casual players that are no where near that. If you are not a casual gamer, getting to Master league would be a good starting goal, since you already made that aim higher. | ||
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Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
The problem with saying "just get into GM league then" is that the amount of dedication required is vastly different because GM vs masters is essentially professional vs (high level) amateur. GM league is going to be only the top 200 in each region. This is pretty much pro-gamer level, as a fair number of top 200 players get contracted into teams. Inori doesn't have the time to be a professional, he just wants there to be a competitive amateur level that takes an appropriate level of work and dedication to reach. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
Also remember that the only people that played iccup were people who were interested enough in the game already to find out what iccup was. D+ iccup was so elite compared to most people who owned the game of starcraft. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On January 13 2011 02:40 MorefaSho wrote: LOL, so you're not good enough for Grandmaster league so you want a league harder than Master League and easier than GM league to get into? How can you complain that blizzard is catering to casuals when YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO CATER TO YOU, NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE TOP 200. LOLOLOLOOL OP u got owned. User was warned for this post | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On January 13 2011 02:11 Inori wrote: Like I said, I'm not good/active enough to get into gm. But I'm still competitive enough to actually want a challenge and something I could be proud of getting into. Not this.. You don't think you could get into grand masters, but think masters is too easy? You seem kind of difficult to please. Just get to the top of your masters division so you're ranked top 200 on the server and you'll get into grand masters. | ||
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Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
Also how ridiculous is it to dismiss everyone below you by saying "yeah to get to where I am is trivially easy... but if you wanna get any better it's basically impossible!" | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
You don't think you could get into grand masters, but think masters is too easy? You seem kind of difficult to please. Just get to the top of your masters division so you're ranked top 200 on the server and you'll get into grand masters. there should be a "doctor" level above the "master" level. in order to get in, you have to have a 'female companion' as being good at the game hehe. alright this is getting to me, everytime i see the word "masters" , I can't help but think: ![[image loading]](http://fountaindaleasd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/themasters3.png) anyone else have this problem? | ||
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Raeleigh
Canada902 Posts
OP, you clearly must be doing some correct and have some skills you're unaware of if you got placed into Masters so easily. I don't know anyone else who's gotten into Masters League that easily, so. | ||
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hazelynut
United States2195 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:34 Raeleigh wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I'm tired of all the blogs and threads about the disappointment with Masters League, or just generally talking about it. OP, you clearly must be doing some correct and have some skills you're unaware of if you got placed into Masters so easily. I don't know anyone else who's gotten into Masters League that easily, so. Alternatively, everyone I know is getting placed into Master's League. These are probably C-/C high on iCCUP  I am happy for them, but getting promoted after 1-2 games is a little eh in terms of Master League's function, or lack thereof. | ||
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Raeleigh
Canada902 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:21 hazelynut wrote: Alternatively, everyone I know is getting placed into Master's League. These are probably C-/C high on iCCUP I am happy for them, but getting promoted after 1-2 games is a little eh in terms of Master League's function, or lack thereof.Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm pretty sure no one on my friends list has gotten into ML. And quite a few are like OMG awesome. @_@ | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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Raeleigh
Canada902 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:34 LuckyFool wrote: I'm masters league and it's gay. I miss my old diamond division of idra/select/tt1/drewbie... now I'm in a scrub division and my points are so much lower... dunno where anyone stands anymore. totally makes laddering unappealing to me I'm just playing customs for my practice now, screw this convoluted ladder system, what ever happened to iccups system that was fine... I don't understand why people get so upset that they're not in the same league as idra/select/drewbie anymore. Yeah, it means the level of play is higher, and OH BOY YOU MIGHT GET YOU PLAY THEM!!~!~!~!!!! But like.. Unless you're as good as them, you're going to be lower in the Masters League compared to them. =/ | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:36 Raeleigh wrote: I don't understand why people get so upset that they're not in the same league as idra/select/drewbie anymore. Yeah, it means the level of play is higher, and OH BOY YOU MIGHT GET YOU PLAY THEM!!~!~!~!!!! But like.. Unless you're as good as them, you're going to be lower in the Masters League compared to them. =/ being in the same division does nothing about increasing the odds you will play them. Honestly divisions just spread players out into smaller bubbles instead of having one huge division and being ranked 40596th I'm 60th... I'll still play them all just as often. I guess for me it's just preference, I mean when you check ur positioin in the division would you rather be working to pass drewbie or noob123? Now every time I check my ladder I get to compare myself to noob123 instead of like tt1. | ||
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Raeleigh
Canada902 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:42 LuckyFool wrote: being in the same division does nothing about increasing the odds you will play them. Honestly divisions just spread players out into smaller bubbles instead of having one huge division and being ranked 40596th I'm 60th... I'll still play them all just as often. I guess for me it's just preference, I mean when you check ur positioin in the division would you rather be working to pass drewbie or noob123? Now every time I check my ladder I get to compare myself to noob123 instead of like tt1. It's still silly though. You should be pleased you're in Masters League. =/ Even if you're not in the same division. Like I said, they are quite a few skill levels above most players(durrr obviouslyy durrr), so I wouldn't think you'd get re-placed in the same division. Wouldn't make sense. | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
On January 13 2011 21:32 Sayle wrote: The problem with saying "just get into GM league then" is that the amount of dedication required is vastly different because GM vs masters is essentially professional vs (high level) amateur. GM league is going to be only the top 200 in each region. This is pretty much pro-gamer level, as a fair number of top 200 players get contracted into teams. Inori doesn't have the time to be a professional, he just wants there to be a competitive amateur level that takes an appropriate level of work and dedication to reach. I still don't get this. You're complaining about Blizzard catering to casuals, but you also want a new league between Masters and GM so that you don't have to spend the time to be a professional but still feel like you did something. Well, too bad. I'm sure there are tons of people in the 200 who are nowhere near professional, especially outside of Korea. According to sc2ranks there are ~3000 people in masters on US. So what do you want? Demi-grand-masters, 1000 people? Double-plus-demi-grand-masters, 500 people? I don't see how you can complain about Blizzard 'catering to casuals' when you literally want a league with just enough people to suit your personal interests. How about you go for number 1 in your division? Sure, it's not an absolute ranking, but apparently you just want to be a 'competitive amateur' anyway. When you're an amateur there's no difference in terms of having a goal between number 1 in your division and XXXX in your server. | ||
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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
I haven't laddered seriously in months. My rating was sitting at 1800 diamond, which as you know is pretty low at this point. However, my MMR was very high since when I was playing actively I was pretty high diamond. I figure that I should've been laddering so I could make it into master league, but I figure what the hell I'll just smash kids in diamond when I'm bored now. I play 1 game and get promoted instantly. Apparently "active" meant different things to Blizzard than to me. Now I'm all happy that I'm not sitting in the now noob-ridden diamond league, but master league has almost no meaning to it. The problem is, if you do it by points you actually are only promoting based on activity and not skill, so I can see why they chose MMR. I'm actually glad they did that over points, but neither system works. The problem is this stupid matchmaking system that matches you based upon one rating and gives you another. Can't we just see our damn MMRs and trash this stupid bonus pool/point system stuff for master league? Sure, it makes those bronze kids feel better about themselves, but why the hell do we have this for a "competitive" league. Just give us MMR so we can see who is actually good and who isn't. The point of a ladder is to rank players from worst to best, not to make a way to gain arbitrary points. I think Blizzard forgot this when they were busy jacking off into their WoW money. | ||
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Coramoor
Canada455 Posts
On January 14 2011 12:05 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The problem is with the entire system. I understand entirely what the OP is saying. I haven't laddered seriously in months. My rating was sitting at 1800 diamond, which as you know is pretty low at this point. However, my MMR was very high since when I was playing actively I was pretty high diamond. I figure that I should've been laddering so I could make it into master league, but I figure what the hell I'll just smash kids in diamond when I'm bored now. I play 1 game and get promoted instantly. Apparently "active" meant different things to Blizzard than to me. Now I'm all happy that I'm not sitting in the now noob-ridden diamond league, but master league has almost no meaning to it. The problem is, if you do it by points you actually are only promoting based on activity and not skill, so I can see why they chose MMR. I'm actually glad they did that over points, but neither system works. The problem is this stupid matchmaking system that matches you based upon one rating and gives you another. Can't we just see our damn MMRs and trash this stupid bonus pool/point system stuff for master league? Sure, it makes those bronze kids feel better about themselves, but why the hell do we have this for a "competitive" league. Just give us MMR so we can see who is actually good and who isn't. The point of a ladder is to rank players from worst to best, not to make a way to gain arbitrary points. I think Blizzard forgot this when they were busy jacking off into their WoW money. active means you've played a game since update, that's why the reset will require 1 game, it just wants to see how many people are actually playing in an easy to test format i don't know how you can say mmr doesn't work, the system is designed to face you against opponents of equal skill, i tend to find that to be the case, do you? and you can't see mmr, because like everything else, it's probably a system that is relatively easy to manipulate if you can actually measure the effect that every possible move makes as to my thoughts on the matter i think masters is still an achievement to some degree, i understand the desire to put a lot of time into the game and practice and do all kinds of things to get good, but when it comes down to it, this system is designed by the game company and not a website that is used by a comparatively tiny number of people, simple truth is that regardless of the fact that you feel no satisfaction in that my solution would be to use a system like sc2ranks, which will now accurately reflect everything, and just set goals for yourself, like i want to move up to top 1000 or whatever, it seems like there is going to be approximately 5500 people or so in masters by the time it's all said and done, just work from there | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
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gamecrazy
United States421 Posts
On January 14 2011 14:49 Immaterial wrote: I think its important to realize that no matter what the title of the league is, you can always continue to climb the ladder and progress. If you are winning a lot of games your MMR will improve and you will be matched against better players. Yes, this is true. However, the point of the OP is that competitive players are often left in this rut once they reach diamond (and now masters) since they aren't likely going to reach top 200/grandmasters. Instead, players are trying to approximate skill with an constantly inflating amount of ladder points. Basically, it's a un-motivator. Arguably, Blizzard should tweak the whole ladder to not end up placing competitively minded players, who are indeed a small subset of the casual population that represents their primary player base and income, into ill-defined categories and give them little to no rank-based incentives to advance past that. Obviously, blizzard is not obligated to do that, but former BW players understand that the iccup ladder gaged the skill of advanced players on a more intricate level than SC2 currently does. And, since the reaction of the more active player community (players who want to improve) will set the tone for game's lifetime and legacy, I personally think Blizzard should be paying a lot more attention because not catering to us could bite their brand in the ass. | ||
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AraqirG
United States266 Posts
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Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 16:13 AraqirG wrote: The problem is the skill gap in starcraft is mindblowing. The difference between a 2600 diamond and a 2200 diamond is huge, let alone the difference between diamond and masters or gold and silver. It was the same way in BW. A high D player on iccup rapes the shit out of a low D player. I don't understand why people feel the need to break all the rankings down into named divisions. I don't see any problem with the current setup for divisions (although I do have issues with the bonus pool) Actually, the problem is the opposite. The ICCup ladder worked very well not only because of the large skill gap between ranks, but also because of the stability of the ranking system (shaken up somewhat recently due the large number of players going to SC2). If you told me you were C+ on ICCup, I would have a very good idea of how skilled you are. On the SC2 ladder, however, it's almost impossible to measure someone's skill. If you give me a 2600 diamond player and a 2200 diamond player, I honestly couldn't tell you who was better. I could make a guess taking into account their remaining bonus pools and what divisions they were in, but it would be just that: a guess. As people have already stated, the fact that true skill is only measured by MMR means that a 1000 point diamond players can actually be put against 2500 diamonds and still be considered even. Even the skill gap between leagues is questionable. After all, we hear plenty of stories of high gold players being placed in even matches against plats and low diamonds (although this could arguably be attributed to the promotion system). As much as the ladder system is flawed, however, I think a large part of the problem is that the overall skill levels of players in SC2 isn't as stratified as it was in Broodwar. Someone made the point that Inori was basically demanding an extremely specific league with an entry requirement placed just above his level but below pro level, which would honestly probably only encompass a few thousand people and would even then not cater to everyone. I think this is a fair statement of the current situation. After all, on ICCup you could spend years of practice and only reach C rank, which is nowhere near the pro (or even high amateur) level. In SC2, you can get into masters in a couple of months. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 20:15 Inori wrote: No, I don't want a league between Masters and GM, I want Masters to be harder to get into. You know, like Blizzard developers announced at Blizzcon. Top 2% of Diamond players, which would mean about 800-1000/region. I think you misunderstood the original announcement It was the top 2% of all players, not just diamond. This would be the top 10% of diamond if the leagues were split evenly as Blizzard claims. In any case, maybe you should accept the fact that the majority of SC2 players are bad, hence you are already in that elite top 2% :/ | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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YiukeDukem
United States125 Posts
You shouldn't think of it as being too easy to get in because you were placed in immediately after 1 game, your MMR was probably at a high level (high enough to be top 2%). | ||
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[-Bluewolf-]
United States609 Posts
I'm now left in the same state as 13 weeks ago - in the highest league possible with 10 Gazillion bonus points to make sure it is impossible to compare where I *really* stand unless I simply grind games as if this is WoW. I lack a goal once again, and will likely now stop playing for another 13 weeks (or however long it takes them to implement "Grand Master" league). I cannot understate how much I hate SC2's ladder system and how much it depresses me that it ruins much of the competitive aspect of a great game (from my perspective, at least). >< | ||
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
if blizz caters to the casuals, sc2 is not a game to do so. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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