EPTBoX Finals tend to keep the "imbalance" (SC1) - Page 2
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
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lastmotion
368 Posts
protoss has almost barely made it to the finals while terrans have been dominating at the top level it has actually been: T dominate all > Z dominate the leftover > P gets raped left and right there are of course exceptions but this is the general trend | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 05 2011 08:01 infinity2k9 wrote: So yeah basically PvZ is the worst. . how could u even argue that pvz imba is the worst? TvZ makes PvZ look like a mirror matchup | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:48 writer22816 wrote: I can't believe that people look at FINALS to determine racial imbalance. Do you realize that results of finals are heavily determined by skill of top caliber players (eg Flash and Jaedong) which really skews the statistics? For example when Stork beat Fantasy, it wasn't because of P > T but because Stork played better. Not to mention that finals only encompasses a small amount of players (Nada, iloveoov, Savior, July, Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong are the only consistent ones; most of the rest are one-hit wonders). Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. Not just the skill of the players, but maps can come into it to a degree, or just how the games swung that day. In finals the players are prepping builds specifically for the opponent, so a player can be blown away by a timing attack that has nothing to do with racial balance. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
I also think that Finals multiply the inherent advantages a race has, because it lessens the map factor due to so extremly prepared builds. I count July vs Best because there was no Metagame change since then in the Matchup, that's all. The way he played he can play now and win (not often but still). The way GARIMTO played he could win no game out of 1,000. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:48 writer22816 wrote: I can't believe that people look at FINALS to determine racial imbalance. Do you realize that results of finals are heavily determined by skill of top caliber players (eg Flash and Jaedong) which really skews the statistics? For example when Stork beat Fantasy, it wasn't because of P > T but because Stork played better. Not to mention that finals only encompasses a small amount of players (Nada, iloveoov, Savior, July, Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong are the only consistent ones; most of the rest are one-hit wonders). Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. I feel Flash partly beat Jaedong out of T>Z. 14 CC is just a ridiculous build and early game TvZ is pretty bad. Rax expand, bunker rush, 14CC....for Terran its either come out even, very slightly behind, or way ahead. For Zerg its either instant loss, huge econ disadvantage, or even. Sometimes 3 Hatch before pool gets you a bit better of an econ but usually a Terran will scout and rax Cc on 15 rather than build a marine, in which case you're once again even. Obviously most of it will come down to skill because race statistics are all like 53%, which isn't a huge imbalance, but to say races don't at least slightly alter results is a little naive. Also lolwat Polaris Rapsody / Odd-Eye TvZ.....poor Jaedong, he should have gotten to rematch Flash with the current MSL and OSL map pools. | ||
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Jstor
United States107 Posts
Am I missing something here or is that a clear majority that "broke" the imba? | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 06 2011 01:14 Jstor wrote: Out of 31, only 17 broke the imba???? Am I missing something here or is that a clear majority that "broke" the imba? 31 OSLS + 24 MSLs = 55 -11 mirrors = 44 | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 06 2011 01:11 SubtleArt wrote: I feel Flash partly beat Jaedong out of T>Z. 14 CC is just a ridiculous build and early game TvZ is pretty bad. Rax expand, bunker rush, 14CC....for Terran its either come out even, very slightly behind, or way ahead. For Zerg its either instant loss, huge econ disadvantage, or even. Sometimes 3 Hatch before pool gets you a bit better of an econ but usually a Terran will scout and rax Cc on 15 rather than build a marine, in which case you're once again even. Obviously most of it will come down to skill because race statistics are all like 53%, which isn't a huge imbalance, but to say races don't at least slightly alter results is a little naive. Also lolwat Polaris Rapsody / Odd-Eye TvZ.....poor Jaedong, he should have gotten to rematch Flash with the current MSL and OSL map pools. Racial imbalance is a much bigger factor than a map imbalance. I also feel that the nature of the matchup seriously put JD at a huge disadvantage. But 14 CC also has weaknesses and can get killed to 9 pool or anything earlier. I just feel like it's unfair how 2 base T is superior to 2 base Z, but meta-game TvZ forces Z to stay on 2 base until Mutas come out. T has the option of denying Z's 3rd of ending the game right there, or getting a 3rd himself. Actually, T has the option of ending the game early with bunker rush, BBS, Proxy Fact Lift, Sunken Bust, while Z has what? 4 pool? Some people might not agree with me but I feel like Broodwar ZvT has more restricted early game options for Z than SC2 ZvT. At least you can roach bust, drone rush, etc. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Actually, T has the option of ending the game early with bunker rush, BBS, Proxy Fact Lift, Sunken Bust, while Z has what? 4 pool? 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 06 2011 13:02 Chef wrote: 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. 2 hatch muta has become semi-standard, I don't even see how you can classify it as cheese Hydrabreak in ZvT? lol A lot of the cheese you named are much less effective + more risky than the Terran counterparts I agree that looking at the simply the finals can be flawed because it's such a small sample, but its the best place to look at if you want to look for the highest level of play available. Actually, it might not be a small sample if you take into consideration all the RO4/RO8/RO16 that had to be played for each finals, and how Protoss barely made it through the competition to the finals. I guess it depends on how you look at it I guess. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1979 Posts
On January 06 2011 13:02 Chef wrote: 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. All of those (aside maybe 9 pool speed) are very easily stopped by simply putting down extra bunkers or turrets, which doesn't hurt the t econ at all. Z, however, have to micro their ass off to defend against pretty much anything, whilst also making sunks which hurts the z econ. | ||
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