• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:23
CEST 12:23
KST 19:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20257Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced21BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
Greener Farms CBD Gummies: Real Reviews Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
[Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 729 users

BoX Finals tend to keep the "imbalance" (SC1)

Blogs > SkytoM
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 22:31:42
January 04 2011 22:26 GMT
#1
Dunno how many this have already noticed, but from 31OSL Finals and 24MSL Finals only 17 Broke the imbalance of P>T>Z.

And 4x it were JD/Flash, 2x NaDa. GARIMTO, GoRush, oov, Bisu, Effort, Mind, July and Grrr made it once. Also it happens in the MSL far more often than in OSL (counting newer ones)

Should be worth mentioning, even if the reasons are very obvious.

*
Bisu... ;-(
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
January 04 2011 22:30 GMT
#2
Is "Broke the imba" a new band? If so, +1. else, I'm super confused.

What on earth are you talking about?
One Love
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
January 04 2011 22:31 GMT
#3
P>T>Z?
Bisu... ;-(
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
January 04 2011 22:31 GMT
#4
T>Z>P>T imba.

So in those 17 finals it was T>P>Z>T
TranslatorBaa!
Zurles
Profile Joined February 2009
United Kingdom1659 Posts
January 04 2011 22:34 GMT
#5
yehhh, protoss vs terran isn't protoss vs flash though.
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
January 04 2011 22:34 GMT
#6
What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 23:47:36
January 04 2011 22:37 GMT
#7
On January 05 2011 07:34 surfinbird1 wrote:
What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role.


I state the thesis that maps don't play a significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e.

but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower.

What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's.
Bisu... ;-(
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 22:46:59
January 04 2011 22:46 GMT
#8
not really surprising. if a player has a statistical chance of 40% to win one game, the chance to win 3 games in a row is only 6.4%. just to name an example.

basically, more games mean a higher chance for the imbalance to show.

that it happened more often in the msl also doesnt surprise me as the msl generally has been dominated by the exceptional players while the osl has been won far more often by players who werent considered top3 at that time. exceptional players tend to overcome imbalance, no matter if its map or race imba.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
January 04 2011 22:46 GMT
#9
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2011 07:34 surfinbird1 wrote:
What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role.


I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e.

but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower.

What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's.


That's certainly true. Like when Flash did an early rax against Jaedong on Zergliner. But then mindgames come into play. If you know that your opponent has to pull off some weird strategy to win you can prepare against those (if that's possible).
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Alphonsse
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States518 Posts
January 04 2011 22:46 GMT
#10
You left out the fact that 11 of those finals were mirror matches. So 17 were T>P>Z>T and 27 were T>Z>P>T, which isn't that huge imo.
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
January 04 2011 22:51 GMT
#11
Also, the imbalance came to be due to results like this occurring.

Results is X => Imbalance is Y => Results is X

they are connected!
Jaedong :3
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
January 04 2011 22:51 GMT
#12
On January 05 2011 07:46 Alphonsse wrote:
You left out the fact that 11 of those finals were mirror matches. So 17 were T>P>Z>T and 27 were T>Z>P>T, which isn't that huge imo.


True but most of the finals that broke the imba are not countworthy anymore like Grrr or Garimto.
Bisu... ;-(
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
January 04 2011 22:53 GMT
#13
On January 05 2011 07:46 Black Gun wrote:
not really surprising. if a player has a statistical chance of 40% to win one game, the chance to win 3 games in a row is only 6.4%. just to name an example.


It's not 3 in a row, it's 3 out of 5. Even if you have 70% winrate chance of winning 3 in a row is ~35%.
Hittegods
Profile Joined April 2007
Stockholm4641 Posts
January 04 2011 22:54 GMT
#14
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2011 07:34 surfinbird1 wrote:
What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role.


I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e.

but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower.

What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's.

Movie's complete refusal to get away with an advantage and ramming his head (and his troops) into Flash. It was Movie's game to lose, not Flash's to win. In general though, Movie had some nice builds and strategies prepared, but just completely fell appart once he was in the driver's seat.
This neo violence, pure self defiance
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
January 04 2011 22:56 GMT
#15
SkyoM are you trying to say that since the old gamers played so differently from the way we did, they don't describe balance in the game today?

I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size.
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
January 04 2011 22:57 GMT
#16
Honestly, I feel that the T>Z>P>T "imbalance" is something that isn't really applicable to finals. Normally, the reason why a player would win a final is because he/she is a dominant player at the time, not because of some racial imbalance, I feel that the T>Z>P>T statistic is more so for the general scene.
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
January 04 2011 23:01 GMT
#17
Just because a map is played on a lot doesn't remove imbalance though and limits you tactically if you have to work around it and divert from standard play. Jaedong vs ForGG MSL is considered TvZ favoured and so were the last MSL maps. It's probably better to ignore map balance though and assume it works itself out over the entire course of all of the leagues each race has had their turn.

I think the only proof that you need for PvZ being imbalanced is the fact that every other weak Zerg can have a decent winrate for it while every weak Protoss is minus 50%. I believe Bisu is the only P who has PvZ as their best matchup, and probably even if you ignore PvP he still is. The same is true for TvZ only to a lesser extent, more players break the mold but generally you got people only good at TvZ quite common, but only good at ZvT or having ZvT has top matchup a rarity (Hydra is an example of breaking the mold right now, although imo its a limited amount of games, and Yarnc would be a good example of a long-time TvZ specialist).

That leaves PvT which imo is better than the others and while still imbalanced certainly less so. But you see many Protoss open say they'd prefer a Terran to face. The top Terrans of this age can square off to Protoss every time now. I bet if you went down to Dream League level though (i dunno if we have those stats?) it'd be P > T more than it is at the highest level, that's just a feeling i got though.

So yeah basically PvZ is the worst. On watching the games you could just say everyone is bad at it except Bisu so it's not imbalanced just bad play, but the nature of the matchup makes it very difficult to be consistent in it. Since Zerg simcities were developed and used to their full potential its been a nightmare mostly. The players are not playing badly they are just trying to juggle things in a very multitask heavy matchup in which keeping your ball alive and big is key and your new expansions can go down in literally 6 seconds from cracklings. No doubt the Z's are impressive and usually have a higher APM but lategame they can literally spam units out and a-move to locations. It makes me root for the P a lot in neutral games. I think reavers are the unit which make the matchup somewhat balanced and a good P always looks their strongest and most dominate using sair reaver and just reavers destroying everything makes it look almost in P's favour, but its such a fragile unit to rely on that sometimes completely doesn't work and has to be shuttled around or built at location they need to defend.
SkytoM
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Austria1137 Posts
January 04 2011 23:10 GMT
#18
On January 05 2011 07:56 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
SkyoM are you trying to say that since the old gamers played so differently from the way we did, they don't describe balance in the game today?

I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size.


There is a torrent to DL the OSL Finals. watch GARIMTO vs Skelton for an example. It's just so bad, that it can't be a good hint for the balance for the game.
Bisu... ;-(
composition
Profile Joined September 2008
98 Posts
January 04 2011 23:33 GMT
#19
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote:
maps don't play significant role in Finals.

HA HA HA HA
gen.Sun
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States539 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-05 00:11:16
January 05 2011 00:10 GMT
#20
But why is GARIMTO vs Skelton outdated but July vs Best not?

SC changes so fast. I would say the top 15 protoss nowadays would own 2008 Jaedong (not to mention Flash).

Edit: sorry that turned out to be more argumentative than I meant it to be. It's a good observation overall, I'm just pointing something out.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Krystianer vs sOs
SKillous vs ArT
MaNa vs Elazer
Spirit vs Gerald
Clem vs TBD
uThermal vs TBD
Reynor vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
RotterdaM938
ComeBackTV 937
IndyStarCraft 397
CranKy Ducklings145
Rex120
3DClanTV 108
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 938
IndyStarCraft 397
Rex 120
ProTech68
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 13672
Hyuk 4277
Hyun 919
Barracks 689
firebathero 655
Larva 641
Mini 601
BeSt 382
EffOrt 245
sorry 71
[ Show more ]
ZerO 67
Last 63
Shinee 57
zelot 48
Free 39
scan(afreeca) 35
Noble 33
soO 23
NaDa 20
Soulkey 18
yabsab 12
Sacsri 12
Sharp 9
Movie 8
Bale 6
ajuk12(nOOB) 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe672
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K933
shoxiejesuss629
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor240
Other Games
gofns12937
Happy492
Beastyqt461
SortOf101
ZerO(Twitch)12
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH318
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2266
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3h 37m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
7h 37m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.