EPTAnd 4x it were JD/Flash, 2x NaDa. GARIMTO, GoRush, oov, Bisu, Effort, Mind, July and Grrr made it once. Also it happens in the MSL far more often than in OSL (counting newer ones)
Should be worth mentioning, even if the reasons are very obvious.
BoX Finals tend to keep the "imbalance" (SC1)
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
And 4x it were JD/Flash, 2x NaDa. GARIMTO, GoRush, oov, Bisu, Effort, Mind, July and Grrr made it once. Also it happens in the MSL far more often than in OSL (counting newer ones) Should be worth mentioning, even if the reasons are very obvious. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
What on earth are you talking about? | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
So in those 17 finals it was T>P>Z>T | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:34 surfinbird1 wrote: What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role. I state the thesis that maps don't play a significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
basically, more games mean a higher chance for the imbalance to show. that it happened more often in the msl also doesnt surprise me as the msl generally has been dominated by the exceptional players while the osl has been won far more often by players who werent considered top3 at that time. exceptional players tend to overcome imbalance, no matter if its map or race imba. | ||
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. That's certainly true. Like when Flash did an early rax against Jaedong on Zergliner. But then mindgames come into play. If you know that your opponent has to pull off some weird strategy to win you can prepare against those (if that's possible). | ||
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Alphonsse
United States518 Posts
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
Results is X => Imbalance is Y => Results is X they are connected! | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:46 Alphonsse wrote: You left out the fact that 11 of those finals were mirror matches. So 17 were T>P>Z>T and 27 were T>Z>P>T, which isn't that huge imo. True but most of the finals that broke the imba are not countworthy anymore like Grrr or Garimto. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:46 Black Gun wrote: not really surprising. if a player has a statistical chance of 40% to win one game, the chance to win 3 games in a row is only 6.4%. just to name an example. It's not 3 in a row, it's 3 out of 5. Even if you have 70% winrate chance of winning 3 in a row is ~35%. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4642 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. Movie's complete refusal to get away with an advantage and ramming his head (and his troops) into Flash. It was Movie's game to lose, not Flash's to win. In general though, Movie had some nice builds and strategies prepared, but just completely fell appart once he was in the driver's seat. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size. | ||
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
I think the only proof that you need for PvZ being imbalanced is the fact that every other weak Zerg can have a decent winrate for it while every weak Protoss is minus 50%. I believe Bisu is the only P who has PvZ as their best matchup, and probably even if you ignore PvP he still is. The same is true for TvZ only to a lesser extent, more players break the mold but generally you got people only good at TvZ quite common, but only good at ZvT or having ZvT has top matchup a rarity (Hydra is an example of breaking the mold right now, although imo its a limited amount of games, and Yarnc would be a good example of a long-time TvZ specialist). That leaves PvT which imo is better than the others and while still imbalanced certainly less so. But you see many Protoss open say they'd prefer a Terran to face. The top Terrans of this age can square off to Protoss every time now. I bet if you went down to Dream League level though (i dunno if we have those stats?) it'd be P > T more than it is at the highest level, that's just a feeling i got though. So yeah basically PvZ is the worst. On watching the games you could just say everyone is bad at it except Bisu so it's not imbalanced just bad play, but the nature of the matchup makes it very difficult to be consistent in it. Since Zerg simcities were developed and used to their full potential its been a nightmare mostly. The players are not playing badly they are just trying to juggle things in a very multitask heavy matchup in which keeping your ball alive and big is key and your new expansions can go down in literally 6 seconds from cracklings. No doubt the Z's are impressive and usually have a higher APM but lategame they can literally spam units out and a-move to locations. It makes me root for the P a lot in neutral games. I think reavers are the unit which make the matchup somewhat balanced and a good P always looks their strongest and most dominate using sair reaver and just reavers destroying everything makes it look almost in P's favour, but its such a fragile unit to rely on that sometimes completely doesn't work and has to be shuttled around or built at location they need to defend. | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:56 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: SkyoM are you trying to say that since the old gamers played so differently from the way we did, they don't describe balance in the game today? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size. There is a torrent to DL the OSL Finals. watch GARIMTO vs Skelton for an example. It's just so bad, that it can't be a good hint for the balance for the game. | ||
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composition
98 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: maps don't play significant role in Finals. HA HA HA HA | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
SC changes so fast. I would say the top 15 protoss nowadays would own 2008 Jaedong (not to mention Flash). Edit: sorry that turned out to be more argumentative than I meant it to be. It's a good observation overall, I'm just pointing something out. | ||
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