EPTAnd 4x it were JD/Flash, 2x NaDa. GARIMTO, GoRush, oov, Bisu, Effort, Mind, July and Grrr made it once. Also it happens in the MSL far more often than in OSL (counting newer ones)
Should be worth mentioning, even if the reasons are very obvious.
BoX Finals tend to keep the "imbalance" (SC1)
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
And 4x it were JD/Flash, 2x NaDa. GARIMTO, GoRush, oov, Bisu, Effort, Mind, July and Grrr made it once. Also it happens in the MSL far more often than in OSL (counting newer ones) Should be worth mentioning, even if the reasons are very obvious. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
What on earth are you talking about? | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
So in those 17 finals it was T>P>Z>T | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:34 surfinbird1 wrote: What about map statistics? Can't deny that the maps play quite a significant role. I state the thesis that maps don't play a significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
basically, more games mean a higher chance for the imbalance to show. that it happened more often in the msl also doesnt surprise me as the msl generally has been dominated by the exceptional players while the osl has been won far more often by players who werent considered top3 at that time. exceptional players tend to overcome imbalance, no matter if its map or race imba. | ||
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. That's certainly true. Like when Flash did an early rax against Jaedong on Zergliner. But then mindgames come into play. If you know that your opponent has to pull off some weird strategy to win you can prepare against those (if that's possible). | ||
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Alphonsse
United States518 Posts
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
Results is X => Imbalance is Y => Results is X they are connected! | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:46 Alphonsse wrote: You left out the fact that 11 of those finals were mirror matches. So 17 were T>P>Z>T and 27 were T>Z>P>T, which isn't that huge imo. True but most of the finals that broke the imba are not countworthy anymore like Grrr or Garimto. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:46 Black Gun wrote: not really surprising. if a player has a statistical chance of 40% to win one game, the chance to win 3 games in a row is only 6.4%. just to name an example. It's not 3 in a row, it's 3 out of 5. Even if you have 70% winrate chance of winning 3 in a row is ~35%. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: I state the thesis that maps don't play significant role in Finals. Usually your whole team supports you non-stop and you train and think like a madman. That's why it's so hard to break the "imba". In PL you cheese, or you do proxy or gas steal w/e. but remember Movie vs Flash Game 1? Gas steal into proxy into perfectly timed expos. It was a complete integrated strategy specially designed for flash and HBR. How the hell flash won that, is until this day a mystery and should (imo) never have happened in the first place. I think it was pure willpower. What i am trying to say with this is, that with enough support and training you can breakdown a map and control the flow of the game with very tinkered BO's. Movie's complete refusal to get away with an advantage and ramming his head (and his troops) into Flash. It was Movie's game to lose, not Flash's to win. In general though, Movie had some nice builds and strategies prepared, but just completely fell appart once he was in the driver's seat. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size. | ||
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
I think the only proof that you need for PvZ being imbalanced is the fact that every other weak Zerg can have a decent winrate for it while every weak Protoss is minus 50%. I believe Bisu is the only P who has PvZ as their best matchup, and probably even if you ignore PvP he still is. The same is true for TvZ only to a lesser extent, more players break the mold but generally you got people only good at TvZ quite common, but only good at ZvT or having ZvT has top matchup a rarity (Hydra is an example of breaking the mold right now, although imo its a limited amount of games, and Yarnc would be a good example of a long-time TvZ specialist). That leaves PvT which imo is better than the others and while still imbalanced certainly less so. But you see many Protoss open say they'd prefer a Terran to face. The top Terrans of this age can square off to Protoss every time now. I bet if you went down to Dream League level though (i dunno if we have those stats?) it'd be P > T more than it is at the highest level, that's just a feeling i got though. So yeah basically PvZ is the worst. On watching the games you could just say everyone is bad at it except Bisu so it's not imbalanced just bad play, but the nature of the matchup makes it very difficult to be consistent in it. Since Zerg simcities were developed and used to their full potential its been a nightmare mostly. The players are not playing badly they are just trying to juggle things in a very multitask heavy matchup in which keeping your ball alive and big is key and your new expansions can go down in literally 6 seconds from cracklings. No doubt the Z's are impressive and usually have a higher APM but lategame they can literally spam units out and a-move to locations. It makes me root for the P a lot in neutral games. I think reavers are the unit which make the matchup somewhat balanced and a good P always looks their strongest and most dominate using sair reaver and just reavers destroying everything makes it look almost in P's favour, but its such a fragile unit to rely on that sometimes completely doesn't work and has to be shuttled around or built at location they need to defend. | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:56 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: SkyoM are you trying to say that since the old gamers played so differently from the way we did, they don't describe balance in the game today? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just asking. If you were saying this, I would agree. 27:17 is rather significant, but it's still a small sample size. There is a torrent to DL the OSL Finals. watch GARIMTO vs Skelton for an example. It's just so bad, that it can't be a good hint for the balance for the game. | ||
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composition
98 Posts
On January 05 2011 07:37 SkytoM wrote: maps don't play significant role in Finals. HA HA HA HA | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
SC changes so fast. I would say the top 15 protoss nowadays would own 2008 Jaedong (not to mention Flash). Edit: sorry that turned out to be more argumentative than I meant it to be. It's a good observation overall, I'm just pointing something out. | ||
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Ideas
United States8148 Posts
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lastmotion
368 Posts
protoss has almost barely made it to the finals while terrans have been dominating at the top level it has actually been: T dominate all > Z dominate the leftover > P gets raped left and right there are of course exceptions but this is the general trend | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 05 2011 08:01 infinity2k9 wrote: So yeah basically PvZ is the worst. . how could u even argue that pvz imba is the worst? TvZ makes PvZ look like a mirror matchup | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:48 writer22816 wrote: I can't believe that people look at FINALS to determine racial imbalance. Do you realize that results of finals are heavily determined by skill of top caliber players (eg Flash and Jaedong) which really skews the statistics? For example when Stork beat Fantasy, it wasn't because of P > T but because Stork played better. Not to mention that finals only encompasses a small amount of players (Nada, iloveoov, Savior, July, Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong are the only consistent ones; most of the rest are one-hit wonders). Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. Not just the skill of the players, but maps can come into it to a degree, or just how the games swung that day. In finals the players are prepping builds specifically for the opponent, so a player can be blown away by a timing attack that has nothing to do with racial balance. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
I also think that Finals multiply the inherent advantages a race has, because it lessens the map factor due to so extremly prepared builds. I count July vs Best because there was no Metagame change since then in the Matchup, that's all. The way he played he can play now and win (not often but still). The way GARIMTO played he could win no game out of 1,000. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:48 writer22816 wrote: I can't believe that people look at FINALS to determine racial imbalance. Do you realize that results of finals are heavily determined by skill of top caliber players (eg Flash and Jaedong) which really skews the statistics? For example when Stork beat Fantasy, it wasn't because of P > T but because Stork played better. Not to mention that finals only encompasses a small amount of players (Nada, iloveoov, Savior, July, Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong are the only consistent ones; most of the rest are one-hit wonders). Using the results of finals to argue racial imbalance is so mindblowingly stupid. I feel Flash partly beat Jaedong out of T>Z. 14 CC is just a ridiculous build and early game TvZ is pretty bad. Rax expand, bunker rush, 14CC....for Terran its either come out even, very slightly behind, or way ahead. For Zerg its either instant loss, huge econ disadvantage, or even. Sometimes 3 Hatch before pool gets you a bit better of an econ but usually a Terran will scout and rax Cc on 15 rather than build a marine, in which case you're once again even. Obviously most of it will come down to skill because race statistics are all like 53%, which isn't a huge imbalance, but to say races don't at least slightly alter results is a little naive. Also lolwat Polaris Rapsody / Odd-Eye TvZ.....poor Jaedong, he should have gotten to rematch Flash with the current MSL and OSL map pools. | ||
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Jstor
United States107 Posts
Am I missing something here or is that a clear majority that "broke" the imba? | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 06 2011 01:14 Jstor wrote: Out of 31, only 17 broke the imba???? Am I missing something here or is that a clear majority that "broke" the imba? 31 OSLS + 24 MSLs = 55 -11 mirrors = 44 | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 06 2011 01:11 SubtleArt wrote: I feel Flash partly beat Jaedong out of T>Z. 14 CC is just a ridiculous build and early game TvZ is pretty bad. Rax expand, bunker rush, 14CC....for Terran its either come out even, very slightly behind, or way ahead. For Zerg its either instant loss, huge econ disadvantage, or even. Sometimes 3 Hatch before pool gets you a bit better of an econ but usually a Terran will scout and rax Cc on 15 rather than build a marine, in which case you're once again even. Obviously most of it will come down to skill because race statistics are all like 53%, which isn't a huge imbalance, but to say races don't at least slightly alter results is a little naive. Also lolwat Polaris Rapsody / Odd-Eye TvZ.....poor Jaedong, he should have gotten to rematch Flash with the current MSL and OSL map pools. Racial imbalance is a much bigger factor than a map imbalance. I also feel that the nature of the matchup seriously put JD at a huge disadvantage. But 14 CC also has weaknesses and can get killed to 9 pool or anything earlier. I just feel like it's unfair how 2 base T is superior to 2 base Z, but meta-game TvZ forces Z to stay on 2 base until Mutas come out. T has the option of denying Z's 3rd of ending the game right there, or getting a 3rd himself. Actually, T has the option of ending the game early with bunker rush, BBS, Proxy Fact Lift, Sunken Bust, while Z has what? 4 pool? Some people might not agree with me but I feel like Broodwar ZvT has more restricted early game options for Z than SC2 ZvT. At least you can roach bust, drone rush, etc. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Actually, T has the option of ending the game early with bunker rush, BBS, Proxy Fact Lift, Sunken Bust, while Z has what? 4 pool? 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 06 2011 13:02 Chef wrote: 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. 2 hatch muta has become semi-standard, I don't even see how you can classify it as cheese Hydrabreak in ZvT? lol A lot of the cheese you named are much less effective + more risky than the Terran counterparts I agree that looking at the simply the finals can be flawed because it's such a small sample, but its the best place to look at if you want to look for the highest level of play available. Actually, it might not be a small sample if you take into consideration all the RO4/RO8/RO16 that had to be played for each finals, and how Protoss barely made it through the competition to the finals. I guess it depends on how you look at it I guess. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1975 Posts
On January 06 2011 13:02 Chef wrote: 2 hatch lurks, fast drop, 2 hatch mutas, 3 hatch speedlings, 9poolspeed, hydra break, Kwanro build... etc etc... Zerg have a lot more options than you're letting on. I don't think there's any statistical significance being displayed here as the sample is still too small. All the finals I've witnessed I've felt like the better player won. Why do we always assume there's an imbalance in the races. Maybe there's an imbalance in the players who choose their races? Not to mention taking into account games before important discoveries like muta stack and patrol micro to describe games today is kind of a joke. Even just the way the game is played with regards to macro and how maps are made is so different from what it was 6 years ago. All of those (aside maybe 9 pool speed) are very easily stopped by simply putting down extra bunkers or turrets, which doesn't hurt the t econ at all. Z, however, have to micro their ass off to defend against pretty much anything, whilst also making sunks which hurts the z econ. | ||
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