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Valhalla18444 Posts
it's tiresome to watch the same thing over and over. the game is pretty stale from a spectator's standpoint, at least in GSL's player pool. I feel like over in Europe and North America there is a lot more variety, but since it's pretty clear 90% of the top players out here & in Europe would get knocked out of the GSL by repeated all-ins, it's just not very interesting.
we need a new map pool. a clean sweep, not a slow integration & phasing out of the current pool. ten new maps that are twice the size of steppes of war, and we have ourselves a completely different game. When the game was in development, I was excited by all of the new and interesting macro mechanics, and the possibilities therein. This was me thinking as a brood war player. what we received instead was maps so confined that those macro mechanics served only to crank out one huge army as quickly as possible and reinforce it over and over until someone is dead.
matches being played, especially in GSL, are utterly transparent. there's no tension, no storyline. with maps this small, and production this overcharged, there's no room for error. games are most often completely decided after the first major conflict, and watching the winning player go through the motions after the fact isn't fun to watch.
edit: and regarding the maps, i read somewhere that the current map pool exists because the devs "didn't want the game to be too complicated right out of the gates." It's a concern I totally understand, and definitely a consideration they were right to address. I just wish they realized that they could have designed these maps with much the same features, but larger, and never run into this issue in the first place. I agree that not every map in the pool should be Arkanoid at release, but I'd kill for a Tau Cross 
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Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
no, we won't. not with this map pool.
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On December 26 2010 07:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
matches being played, especially in GSL, are utterly transparent. there's no tension, no storyline. with maps this small, and production this overcharged, there's no room for error. games are most often completely decided after the first major conflict, and watching the winning player go through the motions after the fact isn't fun to watch.
THIS THIS THIS, The excitment of watching someone suddenly breaks a Contain, or snipe an observer or that lonely hero corsair flying away from a pair of scourges. Instead we get 1a2a3a gg.
On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
Thats more a mantra than a fact.
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Agreed, map pools need to expand, specially muuuuuuuuuch bigger maps
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agree. too many series in such a short period of time.
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This thread only strengthens my belief that Gretech/Blizzard does NOT know how to run Esports.
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On December 26 2010 06:29 ChaseR wrote:
It's the stupid maps that are to blame >_<
This. It makes the games so anti-climatic. It creates no tension and excitement in the game, it's just over with and on to the next one. Sock vs Jinro on Desert Oasis was amazing to watch, I was glued to the screen with tons of small skirmishes, back and forth throughout the whole game. And that was on DO which isn't even that big, can't imagine if we had more properly sized maps.
Watching average games on ICCup maps are more interesting than watching some pros play on Blizzard maps, the game just becomes infinitely more dynamic.
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On December 26 2010 07:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins. no, we won't. not with this map pool.
More than just this. It's inherent balance/game design issues resulting in build order poker. Unless you make the maps so big that you simply cannot attack early it's always going to be bad. Of course maps both accentuate and overshadow the core problem.
Play this game on the good iccup maps or other large maps and you'll see that it doesn't solve everything, though it certainly fixes some things. However, until ladder maps are removed and people use macro-oriented maps we'll likely never see the underlying issues.
I'm just shocked at how much of a fanboy I was about sc2 while it was in beta. Ignorance is bliss.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
the funny thing is, you CAN all-in on iccup match point. it's just much more of a gamble, which is supposed to be the point of an all-in.
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They should use some random map generators imo so the players are playing on a new map they've never seen before.
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China3094 Posts
Looks like people are realizing that SC2 isn't what they thought it would be.
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Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though.
Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part.
Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable.
Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this.
I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol...
Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too.
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On December 26 2010 08:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the funny thing is, you CAN all-in on iccup match point. it's just much more of a gamble, which is supposed to be the point of an all-in.
Very true. Allins in BW were such gambles because they would rarely work. I'm pretty sure I can hop on ladder and do 3 gate VR rushes in all MUs or 4 gates in all MUs and get about 55-65% wins, maybe even more since I'm way underrated.
Edit: To the poster above me:
We're not saying that BW > SC2 and SC2 is for noobs and small children. We're saying that there are severe flaws with the way Blizzard is approaching esports and SC2 which is basically ripping the potential to be as great as BW from its chest. There is no way to have a solid, constantly evolving, complex, and skill rewarding esports scene with a map pool that supports short cheesy games which involve no decision making. It's impossible to have a thriving pro scene when anyone can cheese the best players in the world out of a tournament. These things are legitimate problems and nobody wants to see them. To ignore them is to give up on SC2.
If you want SC2 to be as great as BW, which every single one of us does, then you have to point out the flaws early so they can be fixed. It's like building a house - if you screw up the foundation the whole thing is bound to collapse later.
People avoid conflict and confrontation, especially on these forums. Sometimes people are offended by the truth, but that's their problem and theirs alone. I'm not saying we should go stir the pot needlessly, but just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean it's not true.
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On December 26 2010 09:25 SushilS wrote:Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though. Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part. Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable. Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this. I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol... Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too.
I think it's fine to say that BW > SC2. I don't see anything elitist or immature about it at all, unless you're saying we somehow think that we're suddenly better than you because you play a more inferior game.....
To which I'll say that you're overthinking it. Most people say BW is better than SC2 not because of the players but because of the game itself.
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On December 26 2010 09:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 09:25 SushilS wrote:Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though. Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part. Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable. Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this. I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol... Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too. I think it's fine to say that BW > SC2. I don't see anything elitist or immature about it at all, unless you're saying we somehow think that we're suddenly better than you because you play a more inferior game..... To which I'll say that you're overthinking it. Most people say BW is better than SC2 not because of the players but because of the game itself.
Kindly do not miss the wood for the trees in my post. That was not the core issue and btw I was talking about the attitudes and mindsets of people and not the lexicon of saying BW>SC2. (A statement with which I agree since I have followed BW since 2004 when Nada made me a fan for life!)
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Okay. Then let's address your points.
1. No the trend isn't to bash SC2 and flame the SC2 community. Sure BW lovers joke on streams and talk smack about SC2, but none of that can be called actual serious flaming. In fact, most of this apparent flame comes about only because a bunch of people are complaining all day long. I don't even know why we consider these whiners as somehow a majority opinion. They might be valid opinions, but it's not a trend.
If anything, the trend is simple. People are moving to Starcraft 2. End of story.
2. I talked about alienating SC2 and BW fans in a blog post a long time ago. And while I agree with it, I don't think it's happened as much as people see it. People switch back and forth between SC1 and SC2 easily if they have both games. People who play BW usually give their voice on why they disapprove of SC2, but I haven't seen outlandish aggressive behaviors from BW players that somehow alienate other people.
If anything, the alienation is inherent, no matter what you do. You have BW fans and then you have a bunch of new people coming in from all over the place. Of course there's a sense of entitlement or a sense of alienation. But nobody ever said that it's destroying the community. The alienation may be "inherent" but it's not something that breaks the community in two.
Because in the end....think about it....
Why are we all here?
Because we love Starcraft.
And no matter what happens, no matter how wide our opinions, and how much someone hates SC2 or loves it, we're all bound by our love of Starcraft. We wouldn't be here if we were.
That's the community. Not this minor shit about BW and SC2 supremacy. That's merely something that would exist regardless of whether or not everyone suddenly jumped onto the SC2 wagon.
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Wow this blog is exactly what I'm thinking.
SC2 is a great game, and Tastosis are great casters and the GSL is a huge event for esports.
Also there are some players who really show some charakter.
I also watched every single GSL1 and GSL2 game (had a seasonticked for 1,2,3) and I was super-excited when Rainbow took out Tester (Terranfan here). I also loved the second GSL with Nada, SlayersBoxer and Foxer on the one side against the Zerggroup with FD/Nestea/Zenio/Idra on the other side. And there were lots of entertaining games like the Nada vs. Leenock game on shakuras, where Nada was on 4 bases against 3 Zergbases... ZOMG, this dude was on fire...
But really, the third GSL... Man it was enough... There was no game in my oppinion that was so good I want to remember... The only game I remember is oGsMC against MKP on LT, when everyone cheered for MC for doing such a "great" tactic with his voidray... Really this game sucked. It was so obvious that MC wins if he manages to keep the marinecount low and if not its an autoloss... GSL3 was sad for sc2...
Another point I want to make is the endless talk about imbalance. Yes, OF COURSE the game is imbalanced... Its a new game! But that doesn't mean that every result of a match depends on the imbalanced game! Most of the time it is just the player that makes the difference. Its so sad, every tournament thread here on TL.net becomes a discussionthread about the imbalanced Terran Mule/marine/marauder whatever... Barely anyone accepts that MKP is not just that good because Terran is so strong. This guy has micromanagement like noone else except maybe IMmvp... I never saw anything compareable to their micro of any other player... Just for the record, its also not true that MKP has no macro-management. I bet he took more third-expansions in the GSL than any Protossplayer.
Last but not least, the maps... These Maps are just so bad. Except maybe Metalopolis and Shakuras there is no map out there where you really want to play a _defensive_ macrooriented game...
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 26 2010 09:44 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Okay. Then let's address your points.
1. No the trend isn't to bash SC2 and flame the SC2 community. Sure BW lovers joke on streams and talk smack about SC2, but none of that can be called actual serious flaming. In fact, most of this apparent flame comes about only because a bunch of people are complaining all day long. I don't even know why we consider these whiners as somehow a majority opinion. They might be valid opinions, but it's not a trend.
If anything, the trend is simple. People are moving to Starcraft 2. End of story.
2. I talked about alienating SC2 and BW fans in a blog post a long time ago. And while I agree with it, I don't think it's happened as much as people see it. People switch back and forth between SC1 and SC2 easily if they have both games. People who play BW usually give their voice on why they disapprove of SC2, but I haven't seen outlandish aggressive behaviors from BW players that somehow alienate other people.
If anything, the alienation is inherent, no matter what you do. You have BW fans and then you have a bunch of new people coming in from all over the place. Of course there's a sense of entitlement or a sense of alienation. But nobody ever said that it's destroying the community. The alienation may be "inherent" but it's not something that breaks the community in two.
Because in the end....think about it....
Why are we all here?
Because we love Starcraft.
And no matter what happens, no matter how wide our opinions, and how much someone hates SC2 or loves it, we're all bound by our love of Starcraft. We wouldn't be here if we were.
That's the community. Not this minor shit about BW and SC2 supremacy. That's merely something that would exist regardless of whether or not everyone suddenly jumped onto the SC2 wagon.
Now THAT was an amazing and dare-I-say inspiring post, dOOd! Thanks for lifting my spirits again. As long as we have realists like you and not over-optimists/pessimists in the community STARCRAFT WILL RULE THE WORLD.
+ Show Spoiler +Can you believe I was actually thinking of moving to SCReddit rather than have my love for both games slowly sapped by threads like this. LULLLLZZZZZZ....
Kudos,sir!
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I definitely didn't enjoy season 3 nearly as much as 1 or 2. I actually get frustrated watching all the cheese against zergs. Watching idra, ret, and haypro all get taken out by all ins is incredibly lame. I think the game needs an expansion to fix all the problems. Long games are fantastic to watch in all matchups except maybe PVP.
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EPT
