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So, I've been following GSL since it launched, buying season ticket every GSL to watch VODs. Of course the first GSL was exciting with SC2 being new and all, plus I'm a huge Tasteless fan. GSL2 was cool as more BW progamers participated and VODs were available in HD.
However I've lost interest as GSL3 went further and further... I've went to watch most matches in the earlier seasons to only watch foreigners or players like Boxer/July. I didn't even watch the Jinro semifinal or even the final.
I think I'm done with GSL for now, and won't buy any more tickets. Trust me I really love the commentating but there are just too many games being broadcasted too often for me to follow, plus there still don't seem to be any standards gameplay wise. It's still basically one huge fight with clumped up armies and that's it. How many games have been over 20 minutes? I don't think I've seen any game longer than 30 minutes yet...
I've been watching BW progaming for five years now and I still find it a lot more exciting and skillful than SC2. I play SC2 now and then but it's not often. I don't think SC2 will get as big as BW or anywhere close, e-sports wise. At least not until the expansion.
Anyone else share the same feeling?
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I haven't bought any tickets, but I think the majority of GSL viewers would agree with you. Half of the games being 2rax or proxy 4rax all-in makes it hella boring :/
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skillwise it will increase with the new system so we might see more long games so no worries=)
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Agree, the GSL has too many seasons in 1 year, and SC2 is just not a good game right now with all the maps being small and simple as hell compared to BW maps.
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Too many tournaments for a game that's only a few months after release.
People should just play and have fun with the game before tournaments spring up that base prize money around a game that's either a) incomplete and has balance questions or b) is balanced but none of the players have remotely seen the games true potential.
And yes. The game got boring fast too.
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while i agree there there is much to be desired in the gameplay, i think we will get there eventually whether it be through expansions or whatever. youve been watching bw for 5 years - it was 7 years old when you started watching it. ive been watching it for a decade. it was not always this good, let me tell you.
ill be getting a gsl4 ticket
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10387 Posts
sc2 got boring after a couple of weeks, glad Blizz was kind enough to refund me my money  BW forever~
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I think you complain too much, yes GSL 3 was by far and away the worst of them all, but have faith the next one will be awesome
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I've enjoyed just about every GSL match I've watched. Even if they have been somewhat repetitive, I find it interesting to see the minor differences that people use to tailor the marine rush (for example) to their style or to a specific map.
If anything has slowed my "GSL Fever", it would be the 9 games-per-day period during the ro64. My brain can simply not handle that many games within the span of a week and when I start to get in the habit of missing games it starts to screw with my head a little.
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You had the luxury of watching BW after it had already been well established. Welcome to the beginning days of an eSport, it only gets better from here.
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On December 26 2010 02:50 Blyadischa wrote:
Agree, the GSL has too many seasons in 1 year, and SC2 is just not a good game right now with all the maps being small and simple as hell compared to BW maps.
What is happening?
I never thought I'd see the day when people complained about too MUCH starcraft.
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On December 26 2010 03:24 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 02:50 Blyadischa wrote:
Agree, the GSL has too many seasons in 1 year, and SC2 is just not a good game right now with all the maps being small and simple as hell compared to BW maps. What is happening? I never thought I'd see the day when people complained about too MUCH starcraft.
What if xmas would be celebrated every day of the year? It would lose its 'magic' and would become boring.
SC must be taken in the right doses, otherwise you just get bored of it.
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I think it probably had some of the best games overall. I didn't care for the change to the map system, felt like they were just favoring some players(As if the initial seedings werent helping some players enough). The finals were better than GSL2 overall.
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There was a ridiculous amount of shitty games in GSL3. I'm sure there were some gems amongst the piles of garbage but the sheer volume of one base games put me off the tournament completely. Players have to do what gives them their best chance of winning but I hate watching it
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Sigh. Why so cynical? Yeah I luv my BW too, but seriously I'm fed to the teeth with all the BW supporter=SC2 Anti moods going on.
It seems the only real obstacle facing the spread of SC2 as an E-sport is ironically the BWomgsogoodSC2socheesyfornoobsihopeitgoesaway element. I really wish they would act with more affection towards the game that is derived from BW and is in its infancy as an E-sport and with the complete expansions cud definitely become as good if not better than BW!
Stop being so cruel towards SC2 and show a little more love as expected from a BW fan. OMG!! And I thought the Halo/WoW crowd were the SC2 haterz. Turns out its US, the BW fans and that just saddens me...
Personally, I enjoyed all the GSL casts and I cannot wait for next year just like I cannot wait to see JD own MSL and Kal hopefully not choke at his best chance to win OSL(I know i will be let down in the latter lol.)
I'm glad OP bought all the passes and I hope he reconsiders his decision, not because of anything I write, but because he actually misses watching GSL, inspite of his current sentiment.
Merry Christmas!
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blizzard is shoving ESPORTS down the throat and their new game just isn't as good for esports as BW is
the tournament cycle is WAY too short also, with what, a full tournament in less than two months?
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Katowice25012 Posts
For what its worth there was a game in the finals that was over 30 minutes.
Its unfortunate that a lot of maps don't play out like that because it was a really fun, interesting game.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On December 26 2010 03:24 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 02:50 Blyadischa wrote:
Agree, the GSL has too many seasons in 1 year, and SC2 is just not a good game right now with all the maps being small and simple as hell compared to BW maps. What is happening? I never thought I'd see the day when people complained about too MUCH starcraft.
People have been whining for years that there are too many games in proleague and it dilutes the quality of play. Thats not at all new to TL.
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It is too much. And without proleague you don't know anything about the players half the time. It's just a messed up way of doing things harking straight back to the SC early days. eSports has evolved and should be done how BW has been setup, even if KeSPA isn't involved it should be done the same way.
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I still haven't watched a GSL match. Since it became the cool thing to do to scoff at any mention of the word "imbalance", i've just accepted that it's going to be a cesspool of terran cheese until something changes in the game. I'm so tired of all these random tournaments having TvT finals, and It's frustrating watching the 5000 new competitive Terran players walking all over everyone else with only 6 months of playing experience and the free advantage of playing a race much easier than Protoss was in BW.
User was warned for this post
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I dont know if its good for the viewers when there are so many tournaments, but it is definitely good for the PLAYERS. They dedicate their lives to playing after dropping out of school, and without many tournaments to support them and give them a source of income, they would just be a bunch of poor people without any education  . So for their sakes its important to have a regular tournament structure.
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EDIT: double post somehow
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SC2 basically killed almost all my interest for BW
Then recently, since its holidays, i did take the time to watch some PL/OSL/MSL games.
And man that made me realise how much more entertaining the average BW game is.
SC2 has potential, and the very best SC2 games arent inferior in any way to a great BW game (like jinro vs socke on desert oasis, mana vs naama on xel naga) imo.
But man I watched Free completely rape modesty in a one sided fashion, it was a mediocre game at best for BW standards, and it didnt even mean anything but it was still really entertaining to me.
Whereas the SC2 games are only interesting if they are exceptionally good or if (for me at least) a foreigner is involved.
BW is still clearly the better spectator sport but oh well, have patience I guess.
Btw. I wonder if theyll have some sort of different payment structures for this
Because I'm definitely not gonna pay 20x12= 240$ for one year of GSL.
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On December 26 2010 04:12 ghermination wrote:
I still haven't watched a GSL match. Since it became the cool thing to do to scoff at any mention of the word "imbalance", i've just accepted that it's going to be a cesspool of terran cheese until something changes in the game. I'm so tired of all these random tournaments having TvT finals, and It's frustrating watching the 5000 new competitive Terran players walking all over everyone else with only 6 months of playing experience and the free advantage of playing a race much easier than Protoss was in BW.
This post is so ignorant and factually incorrect, I dont even....Sigh...
Its no surprise that people like you think its a matter of pride to not have watched a GSL match. And you actually mention it in your underbar!ROFL.
Wat a perfect specimen to illustrate the truth of my post above. I would sincerely advise you as a well-wisher, to, as general life-rule, NOT DISMISS STUFF BEFORE TRYING.
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actually i didnt realize how boring the gsl had become until i read this blog. just for me personally at least. I barely watched GSL 3 (just jinro and the finals) but i think i saw every game from gsl 1 and 2
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I'm sticking with it because there are always a few gems, its fun to follow a fledgling scene, and most importantly the foreigners have a real chance to be a part of it. That alone makes it good entertainment.
Proleague is still solid as a rock though, theres usually a game or two really worth watching every night, and even the crappy games are still pretty good by GSL standards. None of these badly positioned FFE into getting killed by 3 roaches or 8 minute marine/SCV allins. For me the most boring games to watch in BW are the PvZs where the P gets his +1 speedlots and dicks around with them indecisively for a few minutes then gets rolled by superior macro a bit later. I don't wake up for it anymore, but I'll switch over to it if some jobber like Bitbybit is playing. At the end of the week it's on at pretty manageable EST hours so I'll usually watch.
I think the best thing about GSL is that a lot of new starcraft fans seem to be discovering BW and tuning into proleague. Theres been a lot of new people on the TL streams, and posting in the LR threads as of late, which is really cool. Hopefully the two scenes can coexist, because I'm really enjoying the ability to watch some form of starcraft whenever I want.
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Bw is awesome. I also find more thrills watching random sc games. Sc2 games are hard to watch unless I have someone I really want to support. Watching old games where I already know the result has no thrill...the result is the only thing that matters. Bw games are actually excititg ^^
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I watched first season like, religiously. Second season kind of.
But I didn't even bother with 3rd season, and I might not with the 4th.
But I'm hoping it gets better by the summer. Me and my boyfriend wanted to go to Korea ;__;
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Honestly it was just too much games squeezed in a short amount of time. Those 9 matches-a-day schedule was just a killer to keep up with in the round of 64 and i thought it was just ridiculous that they tried to rush everything. I mean I can keep up with watching a couple of hours of GS: a day but when you're trying to keep up with 4-6 hours of GSL every day, you'll get burned out.
I'd like to see them either cut out the round of 64 or just put more time off in between the GSLs. The pace of the GSL was pretty much: GSL 1 ended.... qualifier starts in 2 days. GSL 2 ended... qualifier starts in 2 days.
I think it is a bit early to give up on the GSL though The new format sounds interesting and there should be a lot more higher quality games once the dust settle.
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Some people here seems to be spoiled by BW.scene
You had the luxery of watching an established and well refined game that has been out for over 10 years. The pros have shapen up, the game has just gone more and more skill intensive.
SC2 is young, EXTREMELY young. You cant have all that SC:BW was in just a few months.
Chill out, and if its too much SC, whatahell, just turn it off and do something else?
(I watched and followed the professional War3 scene for over 5 years, and im also mildly disappointed of the excitement brought so far by SC2, but Im sure it will come so I stay out of the complaints department)
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I wish they would spread out the games more. I think a lot of the cheesing has to do with the players having virtually no time to prepare for their matches and they just revert to these old cheeses instead of taking the time to prepare for macro games.
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On December 26 2010 02:54 chobopeon wrote:
while i agree there there is much to be desired in the gameplay, i think we will get there eventually whether it be through expansions or whatever. youve been watching bw for 5 years - it was 7 years old when you started watching it. ive been watching it for a decade. it was not always this good, let me tell you.
ill be getting a gsl4 ticket
BW was ALWAYS exciting to watch, im not saying EVERY GAME had a pimpest play in it but the average game was FAR more entertaining than the average sc2 match. Obviously the skill grew withing the years but thats a different topic.
if you dont believe me check this:
http://www.azeroth.ru/
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I mentioned the problem that occurs when things are done "too well" in the initial beta stage and how it would affect the game play and the entertainment to xeris. What I told him was that blizzard is trying too hard
1) to make the game too restrictive in the sense of moving shots, no "difficult" tricks.
2) to make the path-ing is too good for it's own good and would create blob battles
3) to make the maps suck (although this is hard since nobody can predict how game play evolution works over time
4) lack of cloaked units/"spells" ( mostly lurker / mines )
#1 is annoying because no moving shots made for interesting and silly early battles and allowed people with decent micro to actually beat other people using a really low number of units.
"tricks" like being able to drone drill and move through minerals using vultures and pylon tricks (although blizzard didn't want them) created interesting but mostly DIFFERENT games. Sure they were bugs and it the eyes of a programmer, it is a bad thing, but you know... imperfection is perfection if you know what I mean.
Also, removing the in between shots in the delays sucks. It doesn't give the players which dedicate more time to micro a chance to express their domination through their micro when all seems lost.
I remember in beta there was this guy that made all the different moving shots for mutas and so on and it looked cool, I wish we could make a league using only those maps because it would be very interesting to see what would happen. Strategies would change dramatically and more interesting stuff would happen. People might actually think outside of the box!
#2 is annoying as fuck because it looks ugly, it really looks like a slinky army. and at the end it becomes Slinky army 1 vs slinky army 2.
#3 self explanatory
#4 in bw you had tense moments when there was hold lurkers and the guy didn't notice and so on. Now you have that kind of with burrowed banelings and roach underground movement but... it's not really the same because of the maps and the fact that terran has to scan anyways to remove creep and so on. (when it works though it looks good but it doens't usually)
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but I also enjoy bw soo much more than sc2. I just play sc2 because nobody is on bw and i got it as a present .Anyways I hope they improve some stuff to make it better.
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There are definitely way too many games being casted and played. It's making the allure of watching it get old very fast. I mean, consider that there are only 2 OSLs and MSLs per year basically, but then there are 3 GSLs within 3 months? That is a ton. They should definitely tone it down so they don't dilute their broadcasted games more than they already have been.
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BTW im pretty sure the GOM guys realize this but seeing how SC2 was a "failure" on Korea they *need* to saturate with tournaments as a way of marketing.
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It's the stupid maps that are to blame >_<
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Well I did watch a lot of old-school BW as well when I started, and it was actually still good back then. It was just more about micro which is why I love watching/playing BW. So you can't argue that BW was shit in the beginning, it's just more macro oriented today. Since macro is a lot harder in BW than in SC2, there was always room for improvement which I don't think SC2 has.
I used to watch every BW game, but nowadays I don't have the time so I just watch a few selected games (SKT, Flash/Jaedong, final stages of leagues etc). There are way too many proleague matches, but then again that's nothing compared to the amount of GSL games. Even if I had the time to watch six hours of GSL a day I wouldn't do it because of boredom. Plus, I can't download the VODs and the online player sucks since you can't fast-forward which I always do with BW games, so much time is wasted.
One could ask: did BW have five hours+ of games per day right at the start of its lifetime as well? I don't think so. And GSL is just one league... GOM will probably open more leagues later or other sponsors will buy the right to broadcast their own leagues. Maybe the sheer amount of games is the problem itself? If you had the world cup every year in soccer...
I don't like that people call me a SC2 hater because I've probably spent more money on it than you have (all GSL + ESL tourneys). I played the beta and loved the campaign but online never caught my attention. I'm back to playing BW with a handful of other players, but at least I can micro away with my wraiths in 2v2, scanning for observers and sniping them just to kill off every high templar just for the kicks. There's nothing like that in SC2 unfortunately.
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On December 26 2010 06:00 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 02:54 chobopeon wrote:
while i agree there there is much to be desired in the gameplay, i think we will get there eventually whether it be through expansions or whatever. youve been watching bw for 5 years - it was 7 years old when you started watching it. ive been watching it for a decade. it was not always this good, let me tell you.
ill be getting a gsl4 ticket BW was ALWAYS exciting to watch, im not saying EVERY GAME had a pimpest play in it but the average game was FAR more entertaining than the average sc2 match. Obviously the skill grew withing the years but thats a different topic. if you dont believe me check this: http://www.azeroth.ru/
those games were still a bit after release
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WTB more games in GSL like the dreamhack finals, those games were all super exciting and fun to watch. I wish Gsl would play out more in that fashion =[. (can find them on youtube casted by Day[9] and some guy who I don't know but I feel like I have seen in the CS scene)
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On December 26 2010 06:43 chobopeon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 06:00 skindzer wrote:On December 26 2010 02:54 chobopeon wrote:
while i agree there there is much to be desired in the gameplay, i think we will get there eventually whether it be through expansions or whatever. youve been watching bw for 5 years - it was 7 years old when you started watching it. ive been watching it for a decade. it was not always this good, let me tell you.
ill be getting a gsl4 ticket BW was ALWAYS exciting to watch, im not saying EVERY GAME had a pimpest play in it but the average game was FAR more entertaining than the average sc2 match. Obviously the skill grew withing the years but thats a different topic. if you dont believe me check this: http://www.azeroth.ru/ those games were still a bit after release
Well, they did were 1 year after the release, but if you compare the amount of televised games between that finals and the Korean release date i think its quite even with the GSL 3 Finals.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
it's tiresome to watch the same thing over and over. the game is pretty stale from a spectator's standpoint, at least in GSL's player pool. I feel like over in Europe and North America there is a lot more variety, but since it's pretty clear 90% of the top players out here & in Europe would get knocked out of the GSL by repeated all-ins, it's just not very interesting.
we need a new map pool. a clean sweep, not a slow integration & phasing out of the current pool. ten new maps that are twice the size of steppes of war, and we have ourselves a completely different game. When the game was in development, I was excited by all of the new and interesting macro mechanics, and the possibilities therein. This was me thinking as a brood war player. what we received instead was maps so confined that those macro mechanics served only to crank out one huge army as quickly as possible and reinforce it over and over until someone is dead.
matches being played, especially in GSL, are utterly transparent. there's no tension, no storyline. with maps this small, and production this overcharged, there's no room for error. games are most often completely decided after the first major conflict, and watching the winning player go through the motions after the fact isn't fun to watch.
edit: and regarding the maps, i read somewhere that the current map pool exists because the devs "didn't want the game to be too complicated right out of the gates." It's a concern I totally understand, and definitely a consideration they were right to address. I just wish they realized that they could have designed these maps with much the same features, but larger, and never run into this issue in the first place. I agree that not every map in the pool should be Arkanoid at release, but I'd kill for a Tau Cross
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Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
no, we won't. not with this map pool.
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On December 26 2010 07:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
matches being played, especially in GSL, are utterly transparent. there's no tension, no storyline. with maps this small, and production this overcharged, there's no room for error. games are most often completely decided after the first major conflict, and watching the winning player go through the motions after the fact isn't fun to watch.
THIS THIS THIS, The excitment of watching someone suddenly breaks a Contain, or snipe an observer or that lonely hero corsair flying away from a pair of scourges. Instead we get 1a2a3a gg.
On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins.
Thats more a mantra than a fact.
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Agreed, map pools need to expand, specially muuuuuuuuuch bigger maps
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agree. too many series in such a short period of time.
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This thread only strengthens my belief that Gretech/Blizzard does NOT know how to run Esports.
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On December 26 2010 06:29 ChaseR wrote:
It's the stupid maps that are to blame >_<
This. It makes the games so anti-climatic. It creates no tension and excitement in the game, it's just over with and on to the next one. Sock vs Jinro on Desert Oasis was amazing to watch, I was glued to the screen with tons of small skirmishes, back and forth throughout the whole game. And that was on DO which isn't even that big, can't imagine if we had more properly sized maps.
Watching average games on ICCup maps are more interesting than watching some pros play on Blizzard maps, the game just becomes infinitely more dynamic.
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On December 26 2010 07:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 07:12 mardi wrote:
Once the general skill level raises, we'll find more macro games instead of 2 base all-ins. no, we won't. not with this map pool.
More than just this. It's inherent balance/game design issues resulting in build order poker. Unless you make the maps so big that you simply cannot attack early it's always going to be bad. Of course maps both accentuate and overshadow the core problem.
Play this game on the good iccup maps or other large maps and you'll see that it doesn't solve everything, though it certainly fixes some things. However, until ladder maps are removed and people use macro-oriented maps we'll likely never see the underlying issues.
I'm just shocked at how much of a fanboy I was about sc2 while it was in beta. Ignorance is bliss.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
the funny thing is, you CAN all-in on iccup match point. it's just much more of a gamble, which is supposed to be the point of an all-in.
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They should use some random map generators imo so the players are playing on a new map they've never seen before.
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Looks like people are realizing that SC2 isn't what they thought it would be.
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Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though.
Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part.
Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable.
Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this.
I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol...
Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too.
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On December 26 2010 08:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the funny thing is, you CAN all-in on iccup match point. it's just much more of a gamble, which is supposed to be the point of an all-in.
Very true. Allins in BW were such gambles because they would rarely work. I'm pretty sure I can hop on ladder and do 3 gate VR rushes in all MUs or 4 gates in all MUs and get about 55-65% wins, maybe even more since I'm way underrated.
Edit: To the poster above me:
We're not saying that BW > SC2 and SC2 is for noobs and small children. We're saying that there are severe flaws with the way Blizzard is approaching esports and SC2 which is basically ripping the potential to be as great as BW from its chest. There is no way to have a solid, constantly evolving, complex, and skill rewarding esports scene with a map pool that supports short cheesy games which involve no decision making. It's impossible to have a thriving pro scene when anyone can cheese the best players in the world out of a tournament. These things are legitimate problems and nobody wants to see them. To ignore them is to give up on SC2.
If you want SC2 to be as great as BW, which every single one of us does, then you have to point out the flaws early so they can be fixed. It's like building a house - if you screw up the foundation the whole thing is bound to collapse later.
People avoid conflict and confrontation, especially on these forums. Sometimes people are offended by the truth, but that's their problem and theirs alone. I'm not saying we should go stir the pot needlessly, but just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean it's not true.
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On December 26 2010 09:25 SushilS wrote:Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though. Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part. Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable. Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this. I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol... Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too.
I think it's fine to say that BW > SC2. I don't see anything elitist or immature about it at all, unless you're saying we somehow think that we're suddenly better than you because you play a more inferior game.....
To which I'll say that you're overthinking it. Most people say BW is better than SC2 not because of the players but because of the game itself.
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On December 26 2010 09:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 09:25 SushilS wrote:Well I guess time will tell. I'm betting on SC2 though. Also, just wanna say that the current trend atleast on TL is to flame SC2 and the SC2 community. Anyone who says BW is better than SC2 becomes an instant God in the thread. While it may be true, I find it an extremely elitist and immature attitude that I never expected from the BW fans of which I consider myself a part. Further, walking down this path is going to lead to an inevitable alienation of the two communties which I find considering even as a possibility, intolerable. Please moderate your comments therefore because TL, given the position its at currently, may be harming and not helping the community it intends to serve, with threads like this. I can just imagine all the WoW/Halo guys going lololol... Guys please remember this has happened before with CS source and 1.6. With both communities creating a bitter taste in everyones mouth and finally the losers were ONLY the Fanatical fans who caused it in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm writing this post after reading this thread & becoming extremely depressed and pessimistic of BW & SC2's peaceful future, so GG guys.Merry christmas to you too. I think it's fine to say that BW > SC2. I don't see anything elitist or immature about it at all, unless you're saying we somehow think that we're suddenly better than you because you play a more inferior game..... To which I'll say that you're overthinking it. Most people say BW is better than SC2 not because of the players but because of the game itself.
Kindly do not miss the wood for the trees in my post. That was not the core issue and btw I was talking about the attitudes and mindsets of people and not the lexicon of saying BW>SC2. (A statement with which I agree since I have followed BW since 2004 when Nada made me a fan for life!)
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Okay. Then let's address your points.
1. No the trend isn't to bash SC2 and flame the SC2 community. Sure BW lovers joke on streams and talk smack about SC2, but none of that can be called actual serious flaming. In fact, most of this apparent flame comes about only because a bunch of people are complaining all day long. I don't even know why we consider these whiners as somehow a majority opinion. They might be valid opinions, but it's not a trend.
If anything, the trend is simple. People are moving to Starcraft 2. End of story.
2. I talked about alienating SC2 and BW fans in a blog post a long time ago. And while I agree with it, I don't think it's happened as much as people see it. People switch back and forth between SC1 and SC2 easily if they have both games. People who play BW usually give their voice on why they disapprove of SC2, but I haven't seen outlandish aggressive behaviors from BW players that somehow alienate other people.
If anything, the alienation is inherent, no matter what you do. You have BW fans and then you have a bunch of new people coming in from all over the place. Of course there's a sense of entitlement or a sense of alienation. But nobody ever said that it's destroying the community. The alienation may be "inherent" but it's not something that breaks the community in two.
Because in the end....think about it....
Why are we all here?
Because we love Starcraft.
And no matter what happens, no matter how wide our opinions, and how much someone hates SC2 or loves it, we're all bound by our love of Starcraft. We wouldn't be here if we were.
That's the community. Not this minor shit about BW and SC2 supremacy. That's merely something that would exist regardless of whether or not everyone suddenly jumped onto the SC2 wagon.
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Wow this blog is exactly what I'm thinking.
SC2 is a great game, and Tastosis are great casters and the GSL is a huge event for esports.
Also there are some players who really show some charakter.
I also watched every single GSL1 and GSL2 game (had a seasonticked for 1,2,3) and I was super-excited when Rainbow took out Tester (Terranfan here). I also loved the second GSL with Nada, SlayersBoxer and Foxer on the one side against the Zerggroup with FD/Nestea/Zenio/Idra on the other side. And there were lots of entertaining games like the Nada vs. Leenock game on shakuras, where Nada was on 4 bases against 3 Zergbases... ZOMG, this dude was on fire...
But really, the third GSL... Man it was enough... There was no game in my oppinion that was so good I want to remember... The only game I remember is oGsMC against MKP on LT, when everyone cheered for MC for doing such a "great" tactic with his voidray... Really this game sucked. It was so obvious that MC wins if he manages to keep the marinecount low and if not its an autoloss... GSL3 was sad for sc2...
Another point I want to make is the endless talk about imbalance. Yes, OF COURSE the game is imbalanced... Its a new game! But that doesn't mean that every result of a match depends on the imbalanced game! Most of the time it is just the player that makes the difference. Its so sad, every tournament thread here on TL.net becomes a discussionthread about the imbalanced Terran Mule/marine/marauder whatever... Barely anyone accepts that MKP is not just that good because Terran is so strong. This guy has micromanagement like noone else except maybe IMmvp... I never saw anything compareable to their micro of any other player... Just for the record, its also not true that MKP has no macro-management. I bet he took more third-expansions in the GSL than any Protossplayer.
Last but not least, the maps... These Maps are just so bad. Except maybe Metalopolis and Shakuras there is no map out there where you really want to play a _defensive_ macrooriented game...
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 26 2010 09:44 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Okay. Then let's address your points.
1. No the trend isn't to bash SC2 and flame the SC2 community. Sure BW lovers joke on streams and talk smack about SC2, but none of that can be called actual serious flaming. In fact, most of this apparent flame comes about only because a bunch of people are complaining all day long. I don't even know why we consider these whiners as somehow a majority opinion. They might be valid opinions, but it's not a trend.
If anything, the trend is simple. People are moving to Starcraft 2. End of story.
2. I talked about alienating SC2 and BW fans in a blog post a long time ago. And while I agree with it, I don't think it's happened as much as people see it. People switch back and forth between SC1 and SC2 easily if they have both games. People who play BW usually give their voice on why they disapprove of SC2, but I haven't seen outlandish aggressive behaviors from BW players that somehow alienate other people.
If anything, the alienation is inherent, no matter what you do. You have BW fans and then you have a bunch of new people coming in from all over the place. Of course there's a sense of entitlement or a sense of alienation. But nobody ever said that it's destroying the community. The alienation may be "inherent" but it's not something that breaks the community in two.
Because in the end....think about it....
Why are we all here?
Because we love Starcraft.
And no matter what happens, no matter how wide our opinions, and how much someone hates SC2 or loves it, we're all bound by our love of Starcraft. We wouldn't be here if we were.
That's the community. Not this minor shit about BW and SC2 supremacy. That's merely something that would exist regardless of whether or not everyone suddenly jumped onto the SC2 wagon.
Now THAT was an amazing and dare-I-say inspiring post, dOOd! Thanks for lifting my spirits again. As long as we have realists like you and not over-optimists/pessimists in the community STARCRAFT WILL RULE THE WORLD.
+ Show Spoiler +Can you believe I was actually thinking of moving to SCReddit rather than have my love for both games slowly sapped by threads like this. LULLLLZZZZZZ....
Kudos,sir!
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I definitely didn't enjoy season 3 nearly as much as 1 or 2. I actually get frustrated watching all the cheese against zergs. Watching idra, ret, and haypro all get taken out by all ins is incredibly lame. I think the game needs an expansion to fix all the problems. Long games are fantastic to watch in all matchups except maybe PVP.
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The game has some problems that are yet to be fixed, but despite this, I really enjoy watching StarCraft II. Paradoxically, even though I dislike the constant all-ins, I like that they're figuring out what's working and using it to win. It's fascinating how the metagame is developing, how people are responding to the possibilities in the game, and how much more refined players are becoming in their builds and strategies.
Yep, it has problems. So did SC/BW. New maps should arrive over time, and miniscule but wide-reaching gameplay changes will keep things interesting for years to come.
If GOMTV can pull their heads out of their asses and provide a reliable stream, I'm buying a seasonal ticket for GSL4. Because HOLY SHIT that's a star-studded player pool.
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I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. The only factor of interest for me in GSL3 was the rise of my favourite MBC Hero, Iron, as he steamrolled his way to the very top. I can tell that the main problem plaguing SC2's lack of entertainment value, from a spectator's perspective, is the small maps (as has already been pointed out by previous posters).
Meanwhile, I watch a BW game once every day or depending on my busy schedule, and it never fails to entertain me! Fakesteve has already summarized the main points: BW had storylines and moments of tension, not predictable matches like the GSL.
Hopefully, SC2 can improve in the near future. But I will not be watching the GSL4 matches as often anymore, except for the last rounds or if my favourite players are playing. There is another point I would like to agree with: too many tournaments! SC2 e-sports feel rushed, and I do not like it when it is forced down our throats like that. Honestly, it is everywhere YET nowhere at once...
Merry Christmas! =3
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i do think we're a bit spoiled, however. starcraft 2 is a tremendous game in its own right, it is literally the only RTS in the last decade that has anywhere near the competitive depth of brood war. that's an impressive feat unto itself. i think they've built a completely solid engine and made a very smooth transition from a 2d isometric view to the 3d view they have now. it's just tiny details in the grand scheme that i'm displeased with, it's just unfortunate that as a brood war alumn they're the most important.
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I'm feeling good about sc2's future. It's got great support from it's creators, and the fan base is ever growing.
That said some stuff is kinda fucked up about it right now. I haven't seen too much of an evolution in the game. Commentators love to point out how they haven't seen this strat since the early beta, and we can really see how much the game has evolved because a strat like this that was standard for two weeks and is now crazy and risky and nuts. Well, in reality we've only really been here for, what 5 months now since the game came out? That strat was still risky and nuts in early beta, thats why it only lasted two weeks. These commentators like to look at starcraft like a river: linear. I think over time we will be able to see the linear progression of strats, but right now we are still on the microbial level: everything down here is chaos. The game is pretty much controlled by all-ins now, just like it was in the beta. Nothing has really changed.
Also the GSL is wearing me out. It's games are so frequent early on in the season, and the seasons happen so quickly. It's annoying to have to be very selective about what SC you watch. GSL really needs to slow down a bit, take a breather.
My Christmas present to myself is to watch the Proleague tonight (I'm poor). It's so much fun to watch BW like I remember it. No way I'll give up on SC2 though. I'm positive the game will turn out great, everyone should take themselves a little less seriously though. The game is a bit of a mess right now, no need to pretend it's already a strategic masterpiece like BW was. We don't need 9 games a day to stay interested. Hunger is the best sauce.
New maps would help.
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Well I won't buy a GSL4 ticket anyway. Too much money with 12 GSLs per year. I'll wait and see how SC2 evolves, and when I see that the same players keep on winning I will start to watch again. Because that's when you know there's actually a set skill level and not anybody can beat anybody with stupid rushes or random units. Once chat channels are implemented, I'll probably go play a bit as well!
For now though, it's BW all the way. Good luck to Tastosis in further seasons
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I too feel bored of SC2. The past 2 weeks I have actually been playing WoW just because I don't know what else to play. The GSL contains a lot of cute games but nothing makes my jaw drop like every Flash game in the past year. Shoot, basically every single game I watch of bw is more interesting. Just now I watched Wemade vs Woongjin game 3 and it was awesome. Yesterday MSL group winners match beats basically every single game played in GSL 3.
I'm just waiting for some kind of development (most likely maps) but until then, SC2 just isn't really fun.
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GSL is waaaaaay too fast.
There's one osl every 4 months or so (3/year). There's been 3 gsls in 3 months....
I think that has a lot to do with it.
And yeah, the maps are terrible.
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I do agree that it seems we are getting bombarded with games but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Personally I skip most RO64/32 games unless certain players happen to get matched up.
I would suggest watch what games you want to watch and the recommended games, do not make it a chore just something to wind down to.
Personally I think it would be better if GSL were more of a "event" rather than a really a monthly thing we wouldn't really be burned out.
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On December 26 2010 11:42 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i do think we're a bit spoiled, however. starcraft 2 is a tremendous game in its own right, it is literally the only RTS in the last decade that has anywhere near the competitive depth of brood war. that's an impressive feat unto itself. i think they've built a completely solid engine and made a very smooth transition from a 2d isometric view to the 3d view they have now. it's just tiny details in the grand scheme that i'm displeased with, it's just unfortunate that as a brood war alumn they're the most important.
Warcraft III. Ironically, there are no competitive non-Blizzard RTS's that seem to have any lasting value.
I still play warcraft III quite a bit and it's both really difficult and really fun. Balance is a little shaky but at least it feels like the better player always wins and you have much more control over the outcome of a game.
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EPT
