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United States3736 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:38 Liquid`Ret wrote:
3 terrans in top4 last gsl season, also look up overall TvZ stats pls
if you think zerg lategame is too strong maybe you shouldnt let them get to lategame with 80 drones
I'll respond for avilo on this one because I heard him say this like 50,000 times.
"The reason why there was 3 Terrans in the top 4 is because Terran had more representation in the GSL, it doesn't mean Terran is OP LOL"
Yes, Terran had more "representation" in GSL 2, but how does that make any sense? How can people listen and agree to this guy when he can't even fathom a simple point? How did Terran get the most representation in GSL 2? Oh wait! Because the Terran players are the ones who made it past the qualifiers, more so than their Zerg and Protoss counter-parts!
Yes, it is true that according to a released Blizzard statistic (this was a LONG time ago though...) Zerg users as a whole had less representation on Battle.net 2.0. I believe this statistic was released BEFORE the Reaper nerf, so we can only assume it has increased. I'd be very interested in how many Zerg players and Terran players were in the qualifiers for GSL 2 / 3. I'm not aware of a more recent statistic released by Blizzard of the percentages of how much each race is played.
Avilodamus also made an amazing "balance" post on why the Blizzard released TvZ stats don't mean anything. Despite it being around 50%, he did manage to say in his last blog that the only place that stats matter are where the pros are - mainly the GSL. Avilo, you can go edit your post real quick because I'm not going to quote it. I'm not here to make anyone look bad, but it is just funny that with the Terran results in GSL 2, you had to then bring up your "representation" argument after basing Zerg's reign over the Korean tournament as the reason why 50% TvZ stats was bullshit and didn't mean a thing. Awkward how "Z>T GSL 2 (ez)" didn't work out so good for you.
But people still seem to think you know what you're talking about lol.
I'm not arguing a balance issue, I'm just stating facts. Flame the facts Avilo, not me man. 
I'm not even a Terran or Zerg player, nor do I care much about them.
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Stats are irrelevant. Results are irrelevant. Play the game, watch the games, and tell me if you like what you see. I know I don't.
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A good argument game is simply game 1 of NesTea vs Jys.
Jys had a good feint with 2port banshee into double expand. Forcing spore crawlers and forcing the zerg to be defensive.
What does NesTea do? Take the whole map anyway. Manages to max out 200/200. Attacks into the terran mech army. Loses, but who cares. Makes broodlords/infestors, forces vikings, and tech switches to 10 ultralisks 50 zerglings.
There is no Terran late-game. Ravens? BCs? It doesn't matter, no matter what Terran does late-game, unless he manages to cut the map in half theres nothing he can do. Unless he wants to wall-in with planetary fortresses and play "let's mine out the map and see who has leftovers".
The state of the Terran's game will change again with its upcoming patch which will try to adjust TvP, so its going to get worse before it gets any better.
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I don't get why everyone is having such a rough time with scv/marine all-in. Sure it makes tvz boring in some ways since they end so fast at the current state. I'm going to get flamed for what I'm going to say but this is just my perspective on the matter.
Why would you not want to end the game if you could? Put yourself in the terran's shoe, if you stand a chance to win 80k hell i would 6 pool all game if i knew the opponent wasn't ready for it.
Terran's are using their race's strength to their advantage by ending the game early when they see the zerg 14-15 hatch and not building an army. I don't know what economical disadvantage a zerg will be if they throw down an earlier pool or some spine crawlers but I think it certainly helps losing and throwing away ur chance of winning.
We are just currently in a phase much like when terrans 5 rax'd reaper every game, Near the end of it zergs found a way to defend against it. Now its the terran turn to find a way to counter zerg FE.
Edit: I remember a funny game where terran rushed BC against a zerg ( I think it was idra in GSL2) the bc arrives at idra's base and idra is caught completely off guard. What happens? A queen kites the bc down on creep. I find it funny when that is a representation of terran tier 3.
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On November 24 2010 08:06 te3l wrote:
We are just currently in a phase much like when terrans 5 rax'd reaper every game, Near the end of it zergs found a way to defend against it. Now its the terran turn to find a way to counter zerg FE.
Zergs way to "defend against it" was reapers being nerfed to hell and back.
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On November 24 2010 07:38 Liquid`Ret wrote:
and even then marine/tank is a good option. in the ogs house terrans are doing fine vs zerg, lategame too
I'm glad about that, it would be lame to see every game play out like yesterday.
But then again oGs/TLAF-Liquid is full of ballers.
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On November 24 2010 08:11 SuperXlax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:06 te3l wrote:
We are just currently in a phase much like when terrans 5 rax'd reaper every game, Near the end of it zergs found a way to defend against it. Now its the terran turn to find a way to counter zerg FE.
Zergs way to "defend against it" was reapers being nerfed to hell and back.
Not really true, It was micro your units correctly using speedling surround and good queen placement
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Even though Terran is UP late game, it's OP early game.
So I guess it's kind of a trade off. You finish zerg early while you are OP. Or else, zerg takes over.
Top 3/4 being Terran is that those terrans utilize early advantage very well, otherwise they wouldn't be in top 4.
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You said that zerg is invincible in late game, which is completely wrong. Zergs have been trying to fight to get to late game since the game has been released and know how to win in the late game.
But with all the gimicks and all-ins terran has been doing and never revolve around late game macro play just means they haven't tried to. Since they are able to win early game with all-ins and various types of cheeses why even try to go to the late game when they can win early on?
So once the zerg is able to defend off this nonsense terran has no idea how to play the late game and the zerg will roll over them because they have to be able to macro very well to be able to survive at that point.
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The scary thing here is that these threads that scream "Zerg imba" are almost identical to the threads from Zergs that screamed "Terran imba" only a month or two ago. But you had to realize, as a Zerg player, that you needed to deal with it and try something, because stating the obvious wasn't really going to do anything. Over time, we saw a couple high level Zergs practice hard against the mass reaper shit and the like, and they overcame the "imbalance" simply by learning how to playing against it. And even though a few problems remained, we had to end up just waiting for the patch - all while practicing hard against a very aggressive Terran early game.
The ultimatum for Zerg whiners was - deal with it; play the game and get better.
I can't see it being a good thing for these forums when these threads explode everytime there is a shift in the metagame. Why can't you just play the game and try to figure something out?
Maybe playing against Zerg late game is hard (for you), but what do you really hope to accomplish from these threads? They certainly aren't constructive.
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I see an awful lot of "zerg lategame imba" or "terran too weak to compete lategame" without any actual explanation of what specific parts of late game zerg is overpowered.
There's a perfectly good chance that zerg is a bit too strong late game (though I am undecided), but i'm also wondering if maybe IdrA was right (gasp!) when he said that once terran aren't overbalanced, a lot of top players may react very negatively to the sudden increase in difficulty.
I'm certainly no expert, but I do feel like the original post is a little... dramatic.
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On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
Terrans basically already exhausted all of the options for attempting macro management play...to no avail.
Wow, stopped reading right here.
Zerg's were underpowered for months. There are ALWAYS new ways to win. terrans have so many options, they are endless.
Terran's are winning late game in all the major tournaments.
Chances are, your a terran that's playing at a rank which you don't belong, because of how easy it has been for them for so long.
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On November 24 2010 09:07 bakedace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
Terrans basically already exhausted all of the options for attempting macro management play...to no avail.
Wow, stopped reading right here. Zerg's were underpowered for months. There are ALWAYS new ways to win. terrans have so many options, they are endless. Terran's are winning late game in all the major tournaments. Chances are, your a terran that's playing at a rank which you don't belong, because of how easy it has been for them for so long.
....if you're not going to read, get out of my blog.
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I remember you had a thread like this back in beta about tvp and immortals. You refused to build marines because you decided they were terrible vs sentries. Good times, good times.
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Isn't TvZ also ridiculously hard in BW once you hit lategame when defilers and cows came? o_O
To be honest, I think Zerg has always had the strongest lategame out of all three races. Zerg is inherently the race that can pump the most shit with the least amount of resources, and that's most important in lategame when resources become thin and you're getting tired out big huge battles.
Zerg just has massive production capabilities that the other two races don't have. *shrug* I guess that's where all-ins are going to be coming from.
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On November 24 2010 07:48 SCC-Faust wrote:
But people still seem to think you (Avilo) know what you're talking about lol.
This is really the worst tragedy of all, it's such a shame this is true.
I still am interested to see him try to respond to what I said earlier, because as usual, Avilo is wrong.
Remember people, this is the same guy that suggested the easy and best way to break a turtling Terran is to drop 20 Nydus Worms all at once in the Terran main late game.... Seriously. No, seriously, I could not even make this stuff up....
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hey avilo
you lose because you're fucking awful
not because your race is hard
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On November 24 2010 11:06 IdrA wrote:
hey avilo
you lose because you're fucking awful
not because your race is hard
Short, sweet, a bit brutal, but 100% correct.
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On November 24 2010 11:06 IdrA wrote:
hey avilo
you lose because you're fucking awful
not because your race is hard
Hello, that's debateable, you lose to players you shouldn't because you're immature and stubborn, so what?
Put up some arguments, or do something more useful, like practice ZvZ for GSL.
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I say we have a show match between avilo and IdrA ^_^
quick get Day[9] to cast it 
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EPT
