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Did you ever consider that maybe (just maybe here) the Koreans play a different style compared to the NA server?
So far from what I have seen of the Korean server (more then just GSL also) Korean players play hyper aggressive with all races almost all the time.
I don't think it's fair to claim "OMG THE KOREAN DO IT AND THE KOREANS ARE THE ONLY PPL THAT ARE RIGHT SO THUS THIS IS A FACT" based off just GSL games personally.
From what I have seen in your post you have absolutely no proof to back up your claims besides Koreans (who are known for being all in/aggressive players) are being all in/aggressive....
The GSL is a very small sampling on what is happening all over the world, and imo cannot be considered proof. It's just the Korean flavor of the month cheese which has been happening since the beginning of the beta.
Remember when Tozar found a Korean replay with the Korean 4 Warpgate Rush (pylons in the min line PvP) and all of a sudden NO ONE could beat it? I know I remember it. After a couple weeks however people realized there was a way to beat it (kill the scouting probe...) and it is now just another build out there that you know could be coming. I'm pretty sure this is what is happening here.
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Iceland800 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:37 dreamend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:22 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 05:13 NonFactor wrote:
Can you please explain in detail how Zerg can beat a macro Terran 100% the time, like your whine post seems to imply? Despite noobies in random places thinking mules are the shit...they aren't. Mules actually keep Terran even with Zerg - yes even, not ahead. And barely even at that. The reason you cannot play a management game versus Zerg is that if you go for economy...Zerg goes for more economy, and with larva inject they can easily create a 10-20, sometimes even 25 food worker gap. When it reaches that point, it's a game of them countering your unit composition, suiciding into your army, and remaxing their army while taking the rest of the map. Macro Terran is an oxymoron right now. You can't do it TvZ. Not just balance-wise, but even mathematically, you always are behind in TvZ if you go for a macro game. That's why you see this shift now to the barracks mass marine early games. It lets you live in this window of time where you can get ahead of Zerg by forcing them to make some zerglings, and not drone whor3 while you are able to mule. tho most Terrans are hoping to outright kill the Z. Everytime in GSL you hear artosis say about how dangerous 14 hatch is to do now...and you see the Zerg 14 hatch every game he says it...just roll your eyes like I do. It's only dangerous in the sense that the Terran is going to all-in you...but the Zerg knows they are going to be all-ined, and they know how to stop it, which is why they 14 hatch anyways.I don't know if you played near the start of beta, but Zergs were known on the korean server for mass spine crawlering, and then drone whor3ing 40+ drones and such craziness, and then macroing. It was insane. It's no where near as bad as that, but Zerg's lategame has always remained untouched throughout every patch. It's hard for people to see just how good Z lategame is now, because we had that period of time where "Terran was OP" as in - Terran would do random gimmicky all-ins and get away with them. But even then...if you let Zerg go to late game it was heavily Z favored. It's only more so now. ok so you're just equivocating. Mules keep Terran even with Zerg? so what's the problem? in fact almost everyone would agree an even economy scenario means Terran's ahead. how about you actually give some specific reasons? all you've described is diversity with larva inject. yes, zerg operates differently. It was the exact same in BW: if you left Zerg alone they'd rape, but I virtually heard no imbalance claims about ZvT then I really get the feeling people only didn't whine about imbalance like this in BW is because it was accepted to be a 'balanced game' and they'd come off as a moron, but now SC2's here people are gonna milk this as much as possible
zerg could actually be left alone in bw for a bit, that's the thing; without gaining a ridiculous economy lead.
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On November 24 2010 05:45 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:37 dreamend wrote:
It was the exact same in BW: if you left Zerg alone they'd rape, but I virtually heard no imbalance claims about ZvT then
I really get the feeling people only didn't whine about imbalance like this in BW is because it was accepted to be a 'balanced game' and they'd come off as a moron, but now SC2's here people are gonna milk this as much as possible Anyone who has played BW knows it isn't the same.
really is when you just look at the general idea of things. ZvT Zerg was just defending all game until his Hive tech + expansions kicked in. And everyone was terrified of a 4 gas Zerg
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On November 24 2010 05:47 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:17 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
I actually think this will change very soon. I'm just waiting for a good terran in the GSL to prove this idea wrong. FE play into mass tanks/marines is extremely strong and someone in the GSL better do it or I am gonna be pissed. I think the matchup is balanced and I play terran.... these lame korean terrans are just all in every game and it is just retarded.
I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... The alternative if 200/200 marine/tank push and hoping like hell they've been twiddling their thumbs for a while
No reason to wait for 200/200. Tanks > banelings. Marines > everything else. This is prior to hive tech. Tanks focus fire banelings or infestor and terran wins. Someone in GSL is going to do this strat eventually and everyone will say its unbeatable. I will laugh =)
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On November 24 2010 05:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Remember when Tozar found a Korean replay with the Korean 4 Warpgate Rush (pylons in the min line PvP) and all of a sudden NO ONE could beat it? I know I remember it. After a couple weeks however people realized there was a way to beat it (kill the scouting probe...) and it is now just another build out there that you know could be coming. I'm pretty sure this is what is happening here.
Clearly some PvPs are like this because PvP is imba if you get into the late game.
Note the game between Genius vs sSKS on Caverns from GOMTV All-Star tournament.
A lot of Korean PvP games still use 4-gate styles because late game Colossus are just too strong.
There isn't a way to beat a Colossus build in a macro game. So the only way to win is 4gate.
This is fact, I have lots of proof, don't flame me, flame the facts, etc. etc.
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On November 24 2010 05:56 ThisIsJimmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:47 Plexa wrote:On November 24 2010 05:17 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
I actually think this will change very soon. I'm just waiting for a good terran in the GSL to prove this idea wrong. FE play into mass tanks/marines is extremely strong and someone in the GSL better do it or I am gonna be pissed. I think the matchup is balanced and I play terran.... these lame korean terrans are just all in every game and it is just retarded.
I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... The alternative if 200/200 marine/tank push and hoping like hell they've been twiddling their thumbs for a while No reason to wait for 200/200. Tanks > banelings. Marines > everything else. This is prior to hive tech. Tanks focus fire banelings or infestor and terran wins. Someone in GSL is going to do this strat eventually and everyone will say its unbeatable. I will laugh =)
Infestors > tank marine easily. Threaten to attack every time they unsiege, throw down fungals, stall their push forever until hive tech. Ultras > marine, BL > tank.
But yeah, Tank/marine is probably Terran's best bet, BUT they have to be 1 upgrade ahead of zerg at ALL times, or they just get overrun by pure ling.
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On November 24 2010 05:56 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Remember when Tozar found a Korean replay with the Korean 4 Warpgate Rush (pylons in the min line PvP) and all of a sudden NO ONE could beat it? I know I remember it. After a couple weeks however people realized there was a way to beat it (kill the scouting probe...) and it is now just another build out there that you know could be coming. I'm pretty sure this is what is happening here. Clearly some PvPs are like this because PvP is imba if you get into the late game. Note the game between Genius vs sSKS on Caverns from GOMTV All-Star tournament. A lot of Korean PvP games still use 4-gate styles because late game Colossus are just too strong. There isn't a way to beat a Colossus build in a macro game. So the only way to win is 4gate. This is fact, I have lots of proof, don't flame me, flame the facts, etc. etc.
I'm talking the Korean 4 Warpgate when you put the gate down on 10, and cut probes and units while the other 3 gates are making to drop 4+ pylons in the enemies mineral line to warp in zealots. That build is stupid easy to stop and you don't see much use of it anymore. But when people first caught wind of it, it was the build used in 90% of PvP's.
Now it's just a normal 4 Warpgate, (first gate goes down on 12, and pylon outside base, no cutting of probes or military units) which is still wayyyyyy too strong but you also see builds that at the time unthinkable being used such as 2 gate robo, 3 gate expand, etc.... When the Korean 4 Warpgate was all the rage those builds were considered suicide, until people adjusted to the new 4 warpgate style of Protoss and figured out the value in killing a scouting probe.
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On November 24 2010 05:28 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:24 MoreFasho wrote:On November 24 2010 04:09 Plexa wrote:Yeah you could see that this was coming since 1.1.2  PvZ is exactly the same. Kill the zerg before late game or die. Fortunately Protoss have a lot more flexibility in how we decide to all in  Terran don't have that luxury. I really don't mean to argue with this point, in fact, if you're truly correct I'd love to learn something. I actually struggle lategame ZvP unless I get a really large advantage in the mid-game. That being said, I've recently figured some timings out ZvP that have helped me a lot in the later part of the mid-game, but I honestly feel like my lategame units don't do well against the large protoss ball if its' controlled well. If I go roach or roach/hydra midgame if the protoss player gets to about 5 collosi I feel pretty stuck transitioning out of it. I've tried a few different things like broodlords or baneling drops without a tons of success because I feel like my upgrades aren't good for those units. And if go for a muta/ling transition I feel like I'm too vulnerable around the timing I'm taking my 3rd and I just die (or the protoss player will be able to take their 3rd first). None of this is claiming that the match-up is balanced or imbalanced, but I really struggle either 1) getting to lategame or 2) in lategame. I'm not saying this is the ideal progression for ZvP, but I think whenever balance discussions revolve around "what does lategame look like" you can't really do it without discussing how lategame is reached and what the game situation looks like at that point. Chances are you just aren't making a lot of drones. Zerg's biggest advantage is how easily they can use spawn larvae to generate an insurmountably large economy very fast
No, I have no problem getting a large economic advantage, but if I don't push it at around a 3-base timing all-in (or some 2-base all-ins depending on the Protoss composition), I can't ever seem to beat a Protoss who gets onto 3 bases. I can produce infinity units IN THEORY, but IN PRACTICE, the 2nd wave on reinforcements is just too little too late.
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On November 24 2010 05:56 ThisIsJimmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:47 Plexa wrote:On November 24 2010 05:17 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
I actually think this will change very soon. I'm just waiting for a good terran in the GSL to prove this idea wrong. FE play into mass tanks/marines is extremely strong and someone in the GSL better do it or I am gonna be pissed. I think the matchup is balanced and I play terran.... these lame korean terrans are just all in every game and it is just retarded.
I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... The alternative if 200/200 marine/tank push and hoping like hell they've been twiddling their thumbs for a while No reason to wait for 200/200. Tanks > banelings. Marines > everything else. This is prior to hive tech. Tanks focus fire banelings or infestor and terran wins. Someone in GSL is going to do this strat eventually and everyone will say its unbeatable. I will laugh =)
Jinro hwaiting!
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On November 24 2010 05:56 ThisIsJimmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:47 Plexa wrote:On November 24 2010 05:17 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
I actually think this will change very soon. I'm just waiting for a good terran in the GSL to prove this idea wrong. FE play into mass tanks/marines is extremely strong and someone in the GSL better do it or I am gonna be pissed. I think the matchup is balanced and I play terran.... these lame korean terrans are just all in every game and it is just retarded.
I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... The alternative if 200/200 marine/tank push and hoping like hell they've been twiddling their thumbs for a while No reason to wait for 200/200. Tanks > banelings. Marines > everything else. This is prior to hive tech. Tanks focus fire banelings or infestor and terran wins. Someone in GSL is going to do this strat eventually and everyone will say its unbeatable. I will laugh =)
For Terran to win with Tank Marine they need to severely outclass the Zerg player, or the Zerg needs to make mistakes. Terran FE is easier to punish for Zerg than it has ever been for T on Z since 5 Rax Reaper.
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
I've been thinking a lot about this match up, and been looking for ways to play a macro game vs zerg. As Jimmy has mentioned, marines/tank are strong but the pendulum of the game changes in matters of seconds from losing your sizable forces, which seems to happen way too often.
brief rant:
+ Show Spoiler +The problem is even after terran puts up sizable amount of static defences such as turrets and moves out, zerg can swoop back in to terran base and pick off turrets,workers and important building structures like reactors on barracks, tech labs, etc. By this time the terran's force is usually somewhere in the middle and they are setting up position with their tanks and marines. After the mutalisk are done with their harassment without taking much damage they scoot back in time to meetup with their ground force and clean up the terrans army. Now you can see how this process repeats and re-building terrans force takes longer while zerg gets more ahead economically and army force wise.
To a certain extent terran can minimize damage from the mutalisk harass by leaving some marines at home to defend as well, but that would make their attacking army weaker. I really wish the raven hsm spell gets removed and replaced with irradiate, because it can help in so many more cirumstances in tvz battles.
Yes, pdd is good as well but it doesn't really help that the zerg can retreat their army, then terran needs to move a forward again and re-setup. It is this "setting up" your army time that they get the big flank on you and leaves you helpless. Also it is hard to retreat from a baneling mutalisk army while mutalisks are getting free hits on your army while running away.
I’ve been playing a lot of bio versus zerg since beta, and before banelings became a big it I played a lot of 1 rax fe versus fez erg. I would use marine/marauder/tank/medviac and zerg would use zerglings/roaches/hydras/infestors/mutalisk. Even at this point of the game the battles were quite even, and the winner of the games would basically have a marginal better army and better upgrades.
My suggestion towards this would be to either give back irradiate to hsm or reduce the mutalisk ground dmg. In most tvz games we end up seeing mutalisk with 0 weapon upgrade 2 armor upgrade, I think this would have them reconsider what upgrade to pick. Or, by putting back irradiate it will help tremendously as both static defence and offensive attacks. This could lead to potential outcry though as a clumped group of banelings get aoed to death.
I'm attaching with my current play style versus zerg, I do not do 2 rax or all-in builds, instead different variation of FE depending on spawning locations. The most success I've had is by doing a 1/1/1 fe build with one of every unit basically to put the pressure on zerg to create units instead of drones.
Yes, these are wins but I would like to point out how in most cases the wins are largely because zerg didn't keep up with upgrades, or they did some heavy aggressive build that didn't pay off. Also note at the macro and money pileup as well.
I would recommend the 21+ minute games for more full blown macro games. Aside from 2 or 3? all opponents were 2-2.6k zergs, and I was either evenly paired of slightly un/favored versus them. o.o i also have reason to believe one of them is a prime member on a shared account
1.13 replays here: click me (thanks Plexa )
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I think people underestimate the rate that they can get workers out. If you're playing a zerg that is droning you have the ability to expand quickly and make a lot of workers as well. While a zerg that is droning has to use larva to make units or risk getting pushed, a terran and toss can make probes with chrono and pump scvs with mules consistently and pump out units too. If they zerg has no units they can take a big hit from a push. This seems like common knowledge?
When I get into a macro game vs a toss its scary, because they chrono out a lot of probes. I will be honest though in saying that 80% of toss stick to 2base for longer than they should. For that period they will be near even on probes even when im trying to get the very minimal amount of units if they chrono workers consistently with a 3gate build expand build. A toss that knows when he can quickly take his 3rd is seriously scary, I am just waiting till its more mainstream. Sure you can argue that later game gateway units become less effective, but it seems fine to me? It seems like you get a lot of the good gas units off a 6gas build. Like triple robo or double robo stargate.
Terran is a little different but I think people are focusing on this marine / tank all in play and just getting confused when the zerg holds it. I don't see the problem with a zerg that is trying to mostly defend himself and working towards a 4base play beating a terran who is trying to win the game off 2base. People claim its because they cant play a late game, but I personally think its more the execution of how players do it. I remember seeing in GSL2 a Nada game on shakuras where he takes his 3rd rather quickly and goes mech and he dominated his opponent. I have only played a few games versus this but it is pretty scary. Bio can be scary but its vulnerable to infestors.
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On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
If you honestly feel Terran can compete with Zerg in a late game macro management game, I would be happy to see your arguments. I'm sure you'll have plenty of GSL games to back those up as well (LOL).
Leenock vs Nada, Shakuras Plateu. Nothing else.
EDIT: And stop being a stupid Terran fanboy. Srsly, I've spent a lot of time being banned at TL because of writing this kind of shit. Doesn't this guy get banned ever?
User was warned for this post
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While it's good to force the zerg to make units instead of Drones, is it necessarily better than just expanding again sooner yourself? I think Terran in SC2 can reach a critical number of orbital commands in which their money just becomes insane from 1 gold expansion with 4 mules shooting down every minute.
The pressure you put on Zerg if you don't intend to kill an expo should cost very little to you, and just take advantage of a Zerg who can't spread himself too thin. In SC:BW it was speedvultures and dropships (well a lot of other things too). I don't see why in SC2 it can't be flying ranged DTs. Just don't rush to them so you're not at a huge econ disadvantage.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously I haven't played SC2 since beta.
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avilo, why don't you post replays of games showing how the Zerg macro is overpowered?
don't even need to be your own replays. would give a lot more support for your arguments.
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On November 24 2010 06:43 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
If you honestly feel Terran can compete with Zerg in a late game macro management game, I would be happy to see your arguments. I'm sure you'll have plenty of GSL games to back those up as well (LOL).
Leenock vs Nada, Shakuras Plateu. Nothing else. EDIT: And stop being a stupid Terran fanboy. Srsly, I've spent a lot of time being banned at TL because of writing this kind of shit. Doesn't this guy get banned ever?
http://sc2ranks.com/us/327563/avilo
Please have some respect for people who know what they are talking about, there is a reason no one listens to you.
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On November 24 2010 07:22 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:43 Metalwing wrote:On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
If you honestly feel Terran can compete with Zerg in a late game macro management game, I would be happy to see your arguments. I'm sure you'll have plenty of GSL games to back those up as well (LOL).
Leenock vs Nada, Shakuras Plateu. Nothing else. EDIT: And stop being a stupid Terran fanboy. Srsly, I've spent a lot of time being banned at TL because of writing this kind of shit. Doesn't this guy get banned ever? http://sc2ranks.com/us/327563/aviloPlease have some respect for people who know what they are talking about, there is a reason no one listens to you.
I really don't see how ranks have anything to do with this discussion.
There are players higher than avilo that have diverse opinions on the matter.
NEXGenius, Loner, and Boxer all made comments about balance in the previous GSL.
And they all had a different stance (mostly) of how the races compared to each other.
Plus the reason why everything avilo posts is a joke is because of his attitude.
If someone wanted to have a discussion or post something that was well-thought out and not insulting, it wouldn't turn into a flame war. Avilo instead spent his earlier months making fun of Zerg users for crying, and now in turn is doing the exact same thing, while trying to piss people off in the crossfire. Like you can't HAVE a discussion with him. I don't care if Avilo is the #1 player in the world, he doesn't productively get any point across. (Not trying to flatter him, I've seen his games and they weren't flattering either).
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Netherlands4511 Posts
3 terrans in top4 last gsl season, also look up overall TvZ stats pls
if you think zerg lategame is too strong maybe you shouldnt let them get to lategame with 80 drones, theres a million ways to kill or damage zerg early, i cant believe u still havent figured this out yet,
and even then marine/tank is a good option. in the ogs house terrans are doing fine vs zerg, lategame too
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On November 24 2010 07:32 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:22 emperorchampion wrote:On November 24 2010 06:43 Metalwing wrote:On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote:
If you honestly feel Terran can compete with Zerg in a late game macro management game, I would be happy to see your arguments. I'm sure you'll have plenty of GSL games to back those up as well (LOL).
Leenock vs Nada, Shakuras Plateu. Nothing else. EDIT: And stop being a stupid Terran fanboy. Srsly, I've spent a lot of time being banned at TL because of writing this kind of shit. Doesn't this guy get banned ever? http://sc2ranks.com/us/327563/aviloPlease have some respect for people who know what they are talking about, there is a reason no one listens to you. I really don't see how ranks have anything to do with this discussion. There are players higher than avilo that have diverse opinions on the matter. NEXGenius, Loner, and Boxer all made comments about balance in the previous GSL. And they all had a different stance (mostly) of how the races compared to each other. Plus the reason why everything avilo posts is a joke is because of his attitude. If someone wanted to have a discussion or post something that was well-thought out and not insulting, it wouldn't turn into a flame war. Avilo instead spent his earlier months making fun of Zerg users for crying, and now in turn is doing the exact same thing, while trying to piss people off in the crossfire. Like you can't HAVE a discussion with him. I don't care if Avilo is the #1 player in the world, he doesn't productively get any point across. (Not trying to flatter him, I've seen his games and they weren't flattering either).
Ah, I wasn't aware of his previous history, I just know he was a recognizable name- my bad. However that said, Metalwing's post was far from constructive as well.
I think a major problem with late game isn't the fact that Terran can't keep up economically, but the "tech switch" that Zerg has available. Basically they can swap between broodlords and within one supply cycle, and there is no way Terran can match it.
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ughhh im with you avilo. Feel the exact same way about the matchup.
I don't want to call it imbalanced- but it just seems funny to me that a terran absolutely must seriously hurt the zerg early to have a shot at winning in the mid game. I WANT to be able to just play a standard game against zerg, but end up resorting to really gimmicky tactics early game be on level heading.
it is the combination of map control and larva inject that make zerg so powerful late game, once a sufficient number of mutas are out as terran you are stuck on 2 base, while the zerg is more or less free to take the map without worrying about drops or your immobile tank/marine force causing any threat.
I've been trying so hard to understand what i need to do to win a late game TvZ with my practice buddy, but i really just dont see it. I can be macroing absolutely brilliantly, but that doesnt mean much when its 2 base vs 4-5 base. I don't really know what the key to victory is- all that i could really think of is turtling hard until 200/200 with a heavy mech force and hoping he doesnt fungal/neural parasite or have hive tech ready to go, but even that seems futile. Maybe someone will discover some brilliant unit composition that is nigh unstoppable, but when the zerg can just insta-respawn the perfect counter to whatever you make= :\
i guess if early "gimmicks" or whatever you want to call then is how the matchup was meant to be played, that is fine, and i'll just have to figure something out. I'm more frustrated just with being able to see what i need to do to win late game, because usually i can see blantant errors that can be corrected- and i cannot in this case.
on the plus side, i'm sure i've gotten much better even if i just get rolled late game :D
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EPT
