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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:18 Chill wrote: So basically you took http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171206¤tpage=4#72 and posted it as a new topic? Chill is seriously omnipotent. | ||
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NonFactor
Sweden698 Posts
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
YEAH I KILLED THIRTY DRONES WITH MY AWESOME HARASSMENT!!! -> spawn larvae @ 4 bases with 4 queens -> 28 new drones It's simply way too easy for zerg to out-power the other races with their macro mechanic | ||
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WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
Didn't Blizzard say something about when a Hatchery has more then 3 Larvae, that any extra Larvae would die over time when not in use? I suppose this would solve this end game 10+ Larvae on each Hatchery, unless Zergs keep constant Inject Larva up. But more onto topic, I do agree that it is really difficult to beat Zerg late game, their army is so powerful, and they have so many units, the use of flanks, and lots of AoE damage just slaughters Terran. Since Terran are only powerful when there in one big ball. On there own they are so weak. Drops are not really an option any more especially if the Zerg has good Mutalisk micro and Overlord placement, your drop can possibly be neutralized immediately. If you do somehow manage to drop a bunch of infantry in the Zerg's base, the creep makes their units so fast that they get there before you do any real damage. In addition to that, if you try to pickup your dropped units and run away, the Mutalisks are there to pick off your defenceless dropships. The answer people say could possibly be mech? But I say no, only because Mech are so damn immobile, the use of Thors to counter Mutalisks? Sure good when they are attacking the Thors head on out in the open, but most Zerg players will say 'bugger that' and move on to attacking somewhere else that is defenceless like the other side of the main. Do some damage, and leave before the Thors have even gotten passed the ramp to your main -.- Sure tanks are really great! They do lots of damage, I mean who doesn't like damage right? But again, so immobile, if you unsiege at the wrong time the Zerg come in destroy everything before your tanks get up. Of course this can be solved with correct scouting so its not really as big of an issue, but still annoying. Anyway I am not saying that I know what I am talking about, I am just saying what I believe seems to be what's happening at the moment. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:18 Plexa wrote: Every top Terran I've talked to shares the same opinion. i never said i disagree with his opinion  I actually do agree with itjust that people who do will not be won over by someone who appears to be so T biased | ||
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ThisIsJimmy
United States546 Posts
I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
Funny when you play a macro game against zerg they are all always floating at 5000 minerals all the time when you have less than 400 the whole game. If you don't do something super abusing/cheese early on that's how it goes. Maybe overlords should be slower early on so zerg can't get the fast expanding / droning for granted, I dunno. Even if the winrates are 50/50 in zerg matchups, the way the games play out is wrong. Especially the korean games. It's not fun! E. The time when the reaper patch game was funny, it was just at the time when zergs actually learned how to deal with it. Go watch Day[9] Dailies around that time... then you get this patch that is a complete overkill on top of that. Now we get marine scv allins against hatch first builds and they are nowhere close to autowins to Terran still. Anyone know why they didn't patch Roach to just 3.5 like originally planned? Although I don't see Roach as the main problem. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:13 NonFactor wrote: Can you please explain in detail how Zerg can beat a macro Terran 100% the time, like your whine post seems to imply? Despite noobies in random places thinking mules are the shit...they aren't. Mules actually keep Terran even with Zerg - yes even, not ahead. And barely even at that. The reason you cannot play a management game versus Zerg is that if you go for economy...Zerg goes for more economy, and with larva inject they can easily create a 10-20, sometimes even 25 food worker gap. When it reaches that point, it's a game of them countering your unit composition, suiciding into your army, and remaxing their army while taking the rest of the map. Macro Terran is an oxymoron right now. You can't do it TvZ. Not just balance-wise, but even mathematically, you always are behind in TvZ if you go for a macro game. That's why you see this shift now to the barracks mass marine early games. It lets you live in this window of time where you can get ahead of Zerg by forcing them to make some zerglings, and not drone whor3 while you are able to mule. tho most Terrans are hoping to outright kill the Z. Everytime in GSL you hear artosis say about how dangerous 14 hatch is to do now...and you see the Zerg 14 hatch every game he says it...just roll your eyes like I do. It's only dangerous in the sense that the Terran is going to all-in you...but the Zerg knows they are going to be all-ined, and they know how to stop it, which is why they 14 hatch anyways. I don't know if you played near the start of beta, but Zergs were known on the korean server for mass spine crawlering, and then drone whor3ing 40+ drones and such craziness, and then macroing. It was insane. It's no where near as bad as that, but Zerg's lategame has always remained untouched throughout every patch. It's hard for people to see just how good Z lategame is now, because we had that period of time where "Terran was OP" as in - Terran would do random gimmicky all-ins and get away with them. But even then...if you let Zerg go to late game it was heavily Z favored. It's only more so now. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:09 Plexa wrote: Yeah you could see that this was coming since 1.1.2  PvZ is exactly the same. Kill the zerg before late game or die. Fortunately Protoss have a lot more flexibility in how we decide to all in Terran don't have that luxury. I really don't mean to argue with this point, in fact, if you're truly correct I'd love to learn something. I actually struggle lategame ZvP unless I get a really large advantage in the mid-game. That being said, I've recently figured some timings out ZvP that have helped me a lot in the later part of the mid-game, but I honestly feel like my lategame units don't do well against the large protoss ball if its' controlled well. If I go roach or roach/hydra midgame if the protoss player gets to about 5 collosi I feel pretty stuck transitioning out of it. I've tried a few different things like broodlords or baneling drops without a tons of success because I feel like my upgrades aren't good for those units. And if go for a muta/ling transition I feel like I'm too vulnerable around the timing I'm taking my 3rd and I just die (or the protoss player will be able to take their 3rd first). None of this is claiming that the match-up is balanced or imbalanced, but I really struggle either 1) getting to lategame or 2) in lategame. I'm not saying this is the ideal progression for ZvP, but I think whenever balance discussions revolve around "what does lategame look like" you can't really do it without discussing how lategame is reached and what the game situation looks like at that point. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:24 MoreFasho wrote: I really don't mean to argue with this point, in fact, if you're truly correct I'd love to learn something. I actually struggle lategame ZvP unless I get a really large advantage in the mid-game. That being said, I've recently figured some timings out ZvP that have helped me a lot in the later part of the mid-game, but I honestly feel like my lategame units don't do well against the large protoss ball if its' controlled well. If I go roach or roach/hydra midgame if the protoss player gets to about 5 collosi I feel pretty stuck transitioning out of it. I've tried a few different things like broodlords or baneling drops without a tons of success because I feel like my upgrades aren't good for those units. And if go for a muta/ling transition I feel like I'm too vulnerable around the timing I'm taking my 3rd and I just die (or the protoss player will be able to take their 3rd first). None of this is claiming that the match-up is balanced or imbalanced, but I really struggle either 1) getting to lategame or 2) in lategame. I'm not saying this is the ideal progression for ZvP, but I think whenever balance discussions revolve around "what does lategame look like" you can't really do it without discussing how lategame is reached and what the game situation looks like at that point. Chances are you just aren't making a lot of drones. Zerg's biggest advantage is how easily they can use spawn larvae to generate an insurmountably large economy very fast | ||
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prodiG
Canada2016 Posts
That said, I expect either terran players will find a way to play lategame vs z, or blizzard will release a patch addressing it. | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2575 Posts
I find it hard as fuck to beat protoss late game, but that's just my problem. I need to improve. | ||
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DeLoAdEr
Japan527 Posts
Except in the era of tvz mech. That's when Zergs whined because they were mad Terran could actually play a late game management game and not automatically lose. Although, just as an aside, mech was imba back then. Why did mech suddenly become bad? Is it the +1 roach range? | ||
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Kyhol
Canada2575 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:14 xxpack09 wrote: Here's the issue, and its been an issue I've been talking about forever YEAH I KILLED THIRTY DRONES WITH MY AWESOME HARASSMENT!!! -> spawn larvae @ 4 bases with 4 queens -> 28 new drones It's simply way too easy for zerg to out-power the other races with their macro mechanic Yes, this also means he can't resupply with units. At a high level you realize that this is how you can beat zerg. It's actually not that hard, you just need to get them to play how you want them to play. | ||
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dreamend
64 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:22 avilo wrote: Despite noobies in random places thinking mules are the shit...they aren't. Mules actually keep Terran even with Zerg - yes even, not ahead. And barely even at that. The reason you cannot play a management game versus Zerg is that if you go for economy...Zerg goes for more economy, and with larva inject they can easily create a 10-20, sometimes even 25 food worker gap. When it reaches that point, it's a game of them countering your unit composition, suiciding into your army, and remaxing their army while taking the rest of the map. Macro Terran is an oxymoron right now. You can't do it TvZ. Not just balance-wise, but even mathematically, you always are behind in TvZ if you go for a macro game. That's why you see this shift now to the barracks mass marine early games. It lets you live in this window of time where you can get ahead of Zerg by forcing them to make some zerglings, and not drone whor3 while you are able to mule. tho most Terrans are hoping to outright kill the Z. Everytime in GSL you hear artosis say about how dangerous 14 hatch is to do now...and you see the Zerg 14 hatch every game he says it...just roll your eyes like I do. It's only dangerous in the sense that the Terran is going to all-in you...but the Zerg knows they are going to be all-ined, and they know how to stop it, which is why they 14 hatch anyways. I don't know if you played near the start of beta, but Zergs were known on the korean server for mass spine crawlering, and then drone whor3ing 40+ drones and such craziness, and then macroing. It was insane. It's no where near as bad as that, but Zerg's lategame has always remained untouched throughout every patch. It's hard for people to see just how good Z lategame is now, because we had that period of time where "Terran was OP" as in - Terran would do random gimmicky all-ins and get away with them. But even then...if you let Zerg go to late game it was heavily Z favored. It's only more so now. ok so you're just equivocating. Mules keep Terran even with Zerg? so what's the problem? in fact almost everyone would agree an even economy scenario means Terran's ahead. how about you actually give some specific reasons? all you've described is diversity with larva inject. yes, zerg operates differently. It was the exact same in BW: if you left Zerg alone they'd rape, but I virtually heard no imbalance claims about ZvT then I really get the feeling people only didn't whine about imbalance like this in BW is because it was accepted to be a 'balanced game' and they'd come off as a moron, but now SC2's here people are gonna milk this as much as possible | ||
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:34 DeLoAdEr wrote: Why did mech suddenly become bad? Is it the +1 roach range? tanks: 60 -> 50 -> 35light(50armored) dmg guess hard to harass 14hatch as a standard was kind of the final nail, it's still "somewhat viable sometimes", depends a lot on maps and stuff. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:16 TheAntZ wrote: i never said i disagree with his opinion I actually do agree with itjust that people who do will not be won over by someone who appears to be so T biased He's not T biased. He just understands the game and posts the truth as a top player sees it. If reality seems T biased for you, then your definition of biased is wrong. Now back to the topic: the problem could be addressed in several ways - either slightly nerfing larva inject or making terran tier 3 viable. Atm terran tier 3 = 3/3 upgrades on marines, because both ravens and bcs are utter garbage. | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:37 dreamend wrote: It was the exact same in BW: if you left Zerg alone they'd rape, but I virtually heard no imbalance claims about ZvT then I really get the feeling people only didn't whine about imbalance like this in BW is because it was accepted to be a 'balanced game' and they'd come off as a moron, but now SC2's here people are gonna milk this as much as possible Anyone who has played BW knows it isn't the same. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:17 ThisIsJimmy wrote: The alternative if 200/200 marine/tank push and hoping like hell they've been twiddling their thumbs for a whileI actually think this will change very soon. I'm just waiting for a good terran in the GSL to prove this idea wrong. FE play into mass tanks/marines is extremely strong and someone in the GSL better do it or I am gonna be pissed. I think the matchup is balanced and I play terran.... these lame korean terrans are just all in every game and it is just retarded. I don't care what people say about how good they are, it is just a stupid strategy to do every single game and they need to learn to play a macro game sometime... | ||
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