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Delarchon
Finland132 Posts
TvP has always been trouble for me but the answer was never fast zealot or void rays so nothing changed there.+ Show Spoiler + except on shakuras plateau cause it was so hilarious to charge on those rocks that are like 3 grids away from the gas The general idea in these matchups were always to go through colossi to ht and try not to botch the forcefields fighting the way there. | ||
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ZeGzoR
Sweden307 Posts
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QkDown
United States214 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:28 Sclol wrote: this is exactly my problem :I i'm forced to get hydras out since phoenix hard counters muta and once you have enough phoenix you can easily transition into colossus how is getting alot of phoenix then making robo fac+bay easier then zerg putting down a spire then hydra den.. or vs versa and like the above guy, if they 14 hatch i cannon +chrono a lot, usually i can get the expo down or low enough to kill it with a quick push when warp gates finish. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
Right now I feel like that is my saving grace, it's like one of those epic battles in movies. I'm on the side with such a tiny force being sieged upon by hordes of enemies, no chance of fighting back. Then, when it has gone on long enough that Amulet finished researching, it's like the moment where all the reinforcements arrive and your chest fills up with warm fuzzy hope. The clouds open up, the havens shine a light down on my army and chorus of the angels engulf the sound falling Colossus. I then proceed to go to town on Terrans Bio-army with Zealot/Templar off 15 warpgates and eventually win because they didn't have the foresight to build enough production facilities for anything else other than bio. | ||
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WECKL
Sweden36 Posts
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JustinHit
United States196 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:30 Luvz wrote: You do realise that a Stalker Costs 125/50 something right? and a Roach is at around 75/25. Speed roaches is a sick hard counter to Stalker with some ling support.. You do "realise" that stalkers can attack air as well as blink if you are gona talk about roach speed. Thats retarded to compare the two units to have the same amount of costs when 1 has shorter range and cant attack air. seriously | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
Most Zergs respond by getting roaches, but, after those 3 zealots, sentry/stalker is a good transition to counter those roaches (roach range of 4 is still _very_ short). Get a stargate to get 2-3 phoenixes (plural?) out for scouting and overlord killing and follow up with a Robo for observers. If he transitions into mutalisks you just put down a second stargate to get more phoenixes for almost auto-win, if he transitions into roach/hydra you continue with killing overlords and evade his hydras while getting a robo bay for colossi. Hydras are defensive, he can't pressure you very good with them, so you can take another expansion for double-robo. As soon as you have 3 colossi push out and win. Just continously produce stalkers and sentries (and if he is very hydra heavy, add zealots). Everytime i use this strategy i win easily as mid-diamond, you just shouldn't turtle, keep pressure up. In short: Protoss are still extremely strong, the patch changed almost nothing. | ||
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JustinHit
United States196 Posts
On November 01 2010 16:47 FaTLiP wrote: I feel that with the void ray nerf, and the previous zealot nerf, Toss is on a "juuuuuust survive" basis now. Void rays use to keep players honest, and so did the early zealot pressure. And it truely just isn't there anymore If you looked at the patch notes at all, you would see the Void Ray was buffed and nerfed respectively among the levels of its attack. Try using Void Rays, you can see that they are a lot better than they use to be. And not to just cheese to kill buildings but for combat among your army. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:47 HitStarcraft wrote: You do "realise" that stalkers can attack air as well as blink if you are gona talk about roach speed. Thats retarded to compare the two units to have the same amount of costs when 1 has shorter range and cant attack air. seriously But I think the point is Zerg goes for mass roach play, the fact that they can hit air means absolutely nothing. I think stalkers have to be cost effective for both ground and air targets because Protoss doesn't have allot of good anti air options. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:18 da_head wrote: 1600+ toss here pvt: 1 gate fe. works wonders, but needs some scouting so you don't die to stupid shit pvz: either 1 gate sentry fe (and use hallu to scout) or 1 base phoenix into expo pvp: workin on a 1 gate fe style. so far it holds off 4 gate (except this super early 6 zlot 1 stalker one) and it transitions decently into collosus. if i can get it down solidly, i might post a guide. i dunno what kind of tosses you face on ladder, but you simply don't stop 4 gate with 1 gate fe,,, u simply don't | ||
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
On November 01 2010 16:59 rsol wrote: I really wish blizzard would just leave the game alone for a little while. please. please just leave it. no. david kim. no. stop. bad david kim LOL'ed hard. Besides "puppy" Kim, agree that blizz just need to leave the game balance for a while, test a lot and try to make a "1.08 like" patch. The game balance is better than ever (still with lot of flaws), the comunity and pros need more playtesting with the actual "rules", then blizz should come with an even better patch. On-toss-topic: PvP: Kinda boring but better with the zealot nerf. PvT: Same as the OP. Really hard early game, but nice late with collosi followed with storms. Something funny that always happens me in this match up, is that terrans with about same ELO that me, usually have less skill. Is that the same for every low-mid diammond toss? PvZ: Big boost for Z with the new roaches. Now going for directly macro game is harder/riskier. Trying to 15 nexus aganist mass roaches sometimes is really tough. And speed roaches now are awesome. 2 gate presure now possibly useless aganist a good Z. Probably the safer bet is 2 or 3 gate, into expand. Anyways, i still try to polish 15 nexus or Forge into FE (always followed with phoenix harass). | ||
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QkDown
United States214 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:48 Morfildur wrote: I play Random and win about 60% of my PvZs. I open with 2gate (at 13 and second around 15-16 supply) to get 3 zealots into his expansion, punch a few zerglings and if possible drones and then run back and expand (usually i don't get a forge at that stage since upgrades don't help _that_ much against roaches that it's worth the investment that early and cannons are just not mobile enough). Most Zergs respond by getting roaches, but, after those 3 zealots, sentry/stalker is a good transition to counter those roaches (roach range of 4 is still _very_ short). Get a stargate to get 2-3 phoenixes (plural?) out for scouting and overlord killing and follow up with a Robo for observers. If he transitions into mutalisks you just put down a second stargate to get more phoenixes for almost auto-win, if he transitions into roach/hydra you continue with killing overlords and evade his hydras while getting a robo bay for colossi. Hydras are defensive, he can't pressure you very good with them, so you can take another expansion for double-robo. As soon as you have 3 colossi push out and win. Just continously produce stalkers and sentries (and if he is very hydra heavy, add zealots). Everytime i use this strategy i win easily as mid-diamond, you just shouldn't turtle, keep pressure up. In short: Protoss are still extremely strong, the patch changed almost nothing. Havent tried much 2 gate pressure since the lot nerf, I'll give this a go and see if its better then gate/forge to try to push an expansion | ||
Aesop
Hungary11300 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:51 Dommk wrote: But I think the point is Zerg goes for mass roach play, the fact that they can hit air means absolutely nothing. I think stalkers have to be cost effective for both ground and air targets because Protoss doesn't have allot of good anti air options. I think the cost/gain of roach/stalkers is perfectly balanced, AFTER roaches got the 1.1.2 buff. Roaches don't just cost 75/25 btw, we need a larva as well. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:51 CanucksJC wrote: i dunno what kind of tosses you face on ladder, but you simply don't stop 4 gate with 1 gate fe,,, u simply don't It is the timing of it. Your expo comes up when your warpgates finish researching. It is exactly like FE in TvP. When you transfer probes you have the income at that stage to constantly pump out of 5 chorno boosted warpgates. It can work sometimes, it depends on the unit composition of both armies really, but 4 gate definitely has the advantage. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:I've treated Roach pressure as an auto-loss for now (aside from the obvious one base roach plays), I don't know what to do against it and if I try prepare for it I eventually get overwhelmed by Mutalisks if they happen to go Muta. So what I do is FE with cannons and hope Z go for a macro game with mass muta or Hydra, I blindly go x2 Stargate off FE, the funny thing is, I win 80% of my PvZ's now because of this because almost every Zerg goes muta :D, but the ones that go Roach destroy me T__T (unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D) Stalkers have huuuuuuge range in comparison, so if your forcefields are ok then he either pulls back and loses a handful of Roaches, or he doesn't pull back and you kill all his Roaches. You shouldn't have to blindly go Pheonix. Dunno why people have so much trouble with Roaches :\ Bioball is so much more terrifying in comparison | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 01 2010 18:00 Sniffy wrote: Stalkers have huuuuuuge range in comparison, so if your forcefields are ok then he either pulls back and loses a handful of Roaches, or he doesn't pull back and you kill all his Roaches. You shouldn't have to blindly go Pheonix. Dunno why people have so much trouble with Roaches :\ HuK vs Idra from EG Masters gives a good idea of why I think people have trouble with roaches. HuK just loses to straight up roach pushes, even with great unit composition and force fields. Before you could kite roaches, not anymore due to the attack delay of stalkers... | ||
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gavss
Turkey94 Posts
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 01 2010 18:03 Dommk wrote: HuK vs Idra from EG Masters gives a good idea of why I think people have trouble with roaches. HuK just loses to straight up roach pushes, even with great unit composition and force fields. Before you could kite roaches, not anymore due to the attack delay of stalkers... In each of the game aside from game 1 HuK either a) threw away his units early or b) pushed at a horrible time and got rolled. Not to mention you are comparing two players who aren't even on the same level. Idra normally doesn't use Roaches at all. The only reason he did was because all HuK ever does is timing pushes with Gateway units. He countered the pushes, HuK through away his units by repeatedly entering his main, and then Idra countered and won. HuK deserved to lose. And Roaches only won Idra 1 game. Game 3 was Roach/Hydra after a terrible Colussus push by HuK. Game 4 was HuK making a huge error. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On November 01 2010 17:54 QkDown wrote: Havent tried much 2 gate pressure since the lot nerf, I'll give this a go and see if its better then gate/forge to try to push an expansion The most important part about 2-gate pressure is to know when to pull out and not to overcommit. It helps a lot to use shoot-and-scoot (or rather slash-and-scoot) with zealots so they don't get surrounded by zerglings. 3 Zealots can kill more than a dozen Zerglings if microed properly and when he gets roaches out you just have to run for your life. | ||
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