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Hey guys. With the recent patch, I've been reading tons on TL on how its effected close to every matchup, But being a protoss player, I'm a bit saddend the lack of feedback from the protoss community. I've seen plenty of "omg terrans have no chance" and "now you know how we felt for 3 months!" between the Z and T community. But it just seems Like the P community is sitting back, accepting the changes, And moving on. Or, it just hasn't effected their game at all.
Well, It has mine. And my W/L has seem to takin a serious hit over the past few weeks. To me, It didn't seem that big at first, But now they timings are getting better, the train seems to be pulling away from me.
How/What i feel about the patch : I feel that with the void ray nerf, and the previous zealot nerf, Toss is on a "juuuuuust survive" basis now. Void rays use to keep players honest, and so did the early zealot pressure. And it truely just isn't there anymore. Now more and more people are starting to relize this, Its as if the toss must play reactionary (to me at least) and blind tech as well. Miss scouted information is almost 100% gauranteed loss. They are going headstrong into (since patch) very strong builds.
Examples:
PvZ: With the new roach range increase, and void ray nerf, toss early/mid game has just been punked. the new standard 14hatch is almost undeniable/pressureable without commiting to an all in, cheese, Or 4 gateing. (I never done the 3. and i climbed 1800 before patch) With the new roach range, You can no longer match expo's and cannon. So, Now we are pretty much forced to 1 base, against a 2 base zerg. Thats fine....Except one thing.
Once the scout deny lings are out, You HAVE to play blind. Unlike terran, Robo blind is a bad BAD idea against a good z. Previously before patch, Your scouting tool against Z was the stargate. Pheo handled mutas, Voids handled roached (hard) before they could do "to" much damage. Now, With the new roach range (breaks cannons, Can't utilize micro to cost effect units) Robo seems to be a neccessity against an aggro roach/ling player. At the same time, a stargate is a neccessity against a muta/ling player. You can't have both, on a one base toss. It seems almost impossible to safely take an expo, much less take one without having a sign on your back saying "PLZ DONT ATTACK ME WITH MY ARMY COMPS COUNTER" It truely feels as if the zerg player is on equal skill level as me, i don't really have a chance without him fucking up terribly. Am i missing something here? Or am i just that bad of a player, and constantly playing in fear?
PvT: Players from both side know that in statistics its balanced, But its anything but. T punches those little p nerds in the face hardcore early to mid, And once the infinistorms come out, its damn near impossible to beat a good toss. Its extreamly frustrating on both sides, i have no suggestions on how to fix it, nor how to fix it without drasticly ruining the other MU's against Z. Good luck with that one blizzard. Oh by the way. NERF BANSHEES! 
How I feel about playing 500+ games as toss, and where they stand.: I believe toss is in a very weird spot this patch. With gateway units now cost innefective against the other two races from the get-go, and the innability to wall off against either, Its going to start lagging very far behind. The way our tech tree is set up will force P's to guess their tech choices and cross their fingers. The very real power of 4 gate blows out any chance to get a solid gateway buff. And the devistating power of Toss teir 3, does the same for a tech time/price change. At the current state of highlevel play, i believe its just to easy to exploit toss, without toss being able to do the same.
How are you other tosses dealing with this patch? How is effecting you?
PS. I have 0 problem with loosing to a player of equal skill. Or loosing to a player of lesser, due to my mistakes.
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I don't see how you can say you have to play blind, as a protoss user you have the best scouting tool in the game (hallucination) and every decent protoss I play uses this ability mercilessly.
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speaking as a protoss player, I really wish blizzard would just leave the game alone for a little while. please. please just leave it. no. david kim. no. stop. bad david kim.
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listening to incontrol on state of the game, he said void ray nerf did nothing to his game becos he never really used them anyway, considered them extremely gimmicky.
maybe u should play like him 
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From my opininion playing random and getting preaty far up if i got stargate as p vs z i use hallucination to cover up for scouting before i get a stargate ( i go 2 gate hallu) and then my scouts get in halfway into my stargate depending on what they do i either cancel it and switch tech or go with it if it counters.
The thing i have been noticing that not alot of p players are doing that really messes me up when im z is scouting for ovies, a group of stalkers with a couple of sentry is really good at clearing ovies fast and is preaty good againts lings unless they go for a very big number which then u just sit back and play defensive until collosus.
As for roach range i havent really had a problem u just need better forcefields and better positioning(they still have a very short range) its just that its a skill that hasnt develloped much yet as it wasnt a problem before.
Vs T i have no clue im in the same boat as anyone if i apply enough pressure early as t i win if i dont i most likely loose, and the same thing as p if i survive early and dont let them expand i win or i loose to a good timing.
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On November 01 2010 16:58 Cade wrote:
I don't see how you can say you have to play blind, as a protoss user you have the best scouting tool in the game (hallucination) and every decent protoss I play uses this ability mercilessly.
Hes saying that u dont have any leeway, even if z doesnt make the 100% good counter they can still delay adn make the corresponding one, u cant do that as p
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On November 01 2010 17:04 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 16:58 Cade wrote:
I don't see how you can say you have to play blind, as a protoss user you have the best scouting tool in the game (hallucination) and every decent protoss I play uses this ability mercilessly. Hes saying that u dont have any leeway, even if z doesnt make the 100% good counter they can still delay adn make the corresponding one, u cant do that as p
Hmmmm, all I can say is that I think you are playing wrong if you feel that this is the case.
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Replays or it never happened.
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i don't want to be mean but zerg can't scout either till he gets OL speed or an Overseer out (sacing an Ovi early game doesn't give you much information)
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As a zerg player, I totally understand that the void ray nerf feels kinda silly and i dont really agree with it, when it comes to roach range you just need to suck it up and make stalkers and a sentry or two. :p
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I use to play with gnial's dub stalker opening -> void ray harass for PvT but it is not as effective because of the patch and because of the evolution of the ladder. Now, I either risk playing 1 gate FE -> macro war or 4 gate + hug their ramp with sentries and contain terran in one base + expand.
PvZ, still use phoenix or 4 gate + contain/all-in. I play robo when zerg plays heavy ground (roach/hydra) if I'm able to expo with relative safety. Otherwise, mutaling is kind of a mass gateway unit war. Have yet to try that pylon block ramp + cannon.
PvP - 2 gate/ robo or FE build if i can get away with it (usually don't) - I don't normally like this matchup because the other player either rushes col/cannons/4 gates so most of the time, I Korean 4gate.
Roach range has only affected me because it is harder to stop them from killing destructible rocks (like on shakuras plateau). Void ray nerf just made me stop using it altogether (too expensive).
1700 Diamond Protoss
Ashamed of my 4 gating but I try my best to use other strategies.
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On November 01 2010 17:08 Sclol wrote:
i don't want to be mean but zerg can't scout either till he gets OL speed or an Overseer out (sacing an Ovi early game doesn't give you much information)
Yeah, But you really don't have anything to worry about when you've got/getting lair (except 4gate, cannon+lot cheese) and once its up, a sac'd ovie or two will tell you everything you need to know, and you plop down the approprite counter immediatly. P has to be account for getting out droned, roach pressure, and fast muta/hydra tech. I'm not saying the Z player can do all of it, Just with scout deny, you're playing from behind trying to counter the Z's army comp. (how many p players here have furiously tried to micro 1 pheo+2 stalks+sentry against 8+ mutas? lol)
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1600+ toss here
pvt: 1 gate fe. works wonders, but needs some scouting so you don't die to stupid shit
pvz: either 1 gate sentry fe (and use hallu to scout) or 1 base phoenix into expo
pvp: workin on a 1 gate fe style. so far it holds off 4 gate (except this super early 6 zlot 1 stalker one) and it transitions decently into collosus. if i can get it down solidly, i might post a guide.
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Yeah, I've found it really hard to go against Z, the roach pressure is so hard to deal with. If I KNOW Z is going to go roaches (There are a few people I meet on the ladder that do nothing but roaches), then I'm fine, but it's the Muta/Roach transitioning players that destroy me...
Lately, I've tried mass Blink Stalkers as a middle ground answer to the two, but lately Zerg just keep getting Mutalisks then pump Speedlings non-stop, and eventually just overwhelm your entire stalker force.
Blink Stalkers feel like they are made for mobility but for me I feel so immobile, if Zerg slips speedlings while I poke up, I am royally fucked since Stalkers deal with them so poorly, they end up wiping an expos worth of probes if they are lucky
I've treated Roach pressure as an auto-loss for now (aside from the obvious one base roach plays), I don't know what to do against it and if I try prepare for it I eventually get overwhelmed by Mutalisks if they happen to go Muta. So what I do is FE with cannons and hope Z go for a macro game with mass muta or Hydra, I blindly go x2 Stargate off FE, the funny thing is, I win 80% of my PvZ's now because of this because almost every Zerg goes muta :D, but the ones that go Roach destroy me T__T (unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D)
EDIT:
The Day[9] Daily with JP as exactly how I felt, JP played exactly the way I did, I really wished going into that cast that Day[9] had a better answer, he just said to turtle and build more stuff, he didn't even sound very sure of himself, since JP actually played quite well.
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I have not really been struggling with PvZ at all (1600). I think that the latest patch simply make us now play more honest but its not a problem (at least for me)
If I go robo, obs comes out usually perfect timing to see either spire or hydra in which case I can either respond with blink (for muta) or col (for hydra). Oh yeah, immortals poop on any roach play.
If I go stargate I do not have any problems holding off roach aggression. Forcefields are just so damn good and lifting up and picking off any retreating roaches is very nice as well. If they do go hydra upon spotting phoenix I usually have plenty of time to counter and as long as I am microing well dealing with roaches is still not a problem. If they try to stick to mutas after seeing phoenix and try to overpower me I usually just laugh.
PvT: I used to go voidray about 75% of the time and had VERY MUCH SUCCESS with it (imo they were quite OP) and honestly I was winning way to much with it. Now I play much more standard and with forcefields I am really not have any problems with early aggression in this match up as well.
Yes, P early aggression is definitely not what it used to be, but i don't believe that its completely dead.
and Yes, once P chooses their tech, they are quite committed to it, but that has always been the case it seems.
Really I have nothing to complain about. I'm still having plenty of fun and I am not running into any obstacles that I cannot overcome. The patch was just fine imo.
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On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:
(unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D)
this is exactly my problem :I i'm forced to get hydras out since phoenix hard counters muta and once you have enough phoenix you can easily transition into colossus
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On November 01 2010 Ghad wrote:
As a zerg player, I totally understand that the void ray nerf feels kinda silly and i dont really agree with it, when it comes to roach range you just need to suck it up and make stalkers and a sentry or two. :p
You do realise that a Stalker Costs 125/50 something right? and a Roach is at around 75/25. Speed roaches is a sick hard counter to Stalker with some ling support.. u might say, get some Sentrys. 50minerals 100gas and u want me to get 125/50, sure i can do that. off 4gas, but when i dont have a expand up early/midd game without getting crushed by a middgame push theres noway ill keep up production with a Zerg in ether drone count or unit wise. Now, here's the dilemma im stuck with, Every Zerg will say "put pressure on zerg early to deny something like this happening" With 90% of aggro earlygame from Toss Nerfed evrything is close to nullified. as he stated in this thread, he has the issue that he HAS to do some Allin push with 4gate or Something cheesy as shit to get that early pressure off.
To some of the other posters. A Protoss plays close to blind and has to look at the early unit production off zerg and make a huge call based on that. in some cases this fails terribly. when we see heavy amounts of Lings we think of mutas, when we see a Roach/Ling combo we think Roach/ling and mayb a later Hydra tech with aggro exping. Both of these can easly be abused becouse its commonly known. and the thing is, Sure u might have hallu, but to get hallu out before lair tech u have to Chrono it constantly after warpgates. this comes back to the No aggression earlygame and the fact that the Zerg will just demolish you becouse of the "dronecount" theres noway ul keep up with him. u can scout his tech, and still loose when u get it on tier 2/3 even if u rush for it, if u dont constantly chrono it. ul get it out once he allready has his tech, at this point ur allready Fckd and so far behind becouse u had a way later expand and you had to wait to make sure u made the right tech choice. YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TWO TECH ROUTES as a protoss on 2base, Theres liturally noway, ul fall way to far behind on the unit count and the "Hardcounter" wont matter. Sure u can say that Protoss can do the same thing, aka a ALLIN becouse he had close to no chance of Exping as early as the zerg that has the double production of both drones/Units if he chooses too. wer past the stage of players still learning to "make drones or make Units" atleast the good ones are... thats the only thing that made Zerg hard before, and thats why ZvP is redicilous afther the patch.
PVT: i dont have too much to say here other then whats been said, once storm is up on 3base the terran is liturally fckd. Getting to the point where u have your 3rd and can get the critical amount of storms/sentrys whatever, is sick hard and can be abused easly by terrans with Dropship play.
my 2cents.
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pvz is still by far the easiest p matchup imo, sure roach range killed fe on some maps but the void ray nerf changed nothing in this matchup because void rays have always been atrocious pvz. hallucination when warp gate is done is all you need for scouting, robo is nowhere near mandatory and stargate wasn't 100% necessary against mutas like you seem to claim, blink stalkers handle it fine.
3 gate expo into 6 gate blink stalker then changing your tech based on what he's doing has been working fine for me since ever, and its a little harder now with the roach change but i still find pvz to be a really really easy matchup in comparison to the other 2 and if you don't die early your 200/200 is still better than his by a decent amount
the only thing i have trouble against in pvz is mutaling and its the exact same as before the patch, literally the only difference is you can't fe on some maps you used to be able to.
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Hmm...iunno but for PvZ I personally have been using 15 Nexus (you can find the guide on the strat forums) with stargate follow-up with pretty decent success. Against roaches, it's harder to hold, but I still manage to have enough resources to fund a few cannons and stalkers to hold it off. Either way, most cases the Zerg panics and tries to all-in zergling/bling which always fails with good FF.
For PvT I'm kinda with the OP. Early-mid game the power of Terran bio is just retarded. I'm afraid of FE 'cause of some super fast bio rush, but I'm starved for gas in order to tech. However, if I somehow survive the early-mid game transition and I get my storms out, I pretty much have a 90% winrate for my late-game PvT.
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On November 01 2010 da_head wrote:
1600+ toss here
pvt: 1 gate fe. works wonders, but needs some scouting so you don't die to stupid shit
pvz: either 1 gate sentry fe (and use hallu to scout) or 1 base phoenix into expo
pvp: workin on a 1 gate fe style. so far it holds off 4 gate (except this super early 6 zlot 1 stalker one) and it transitions decently into collosus. if i can get it down solidly, i might post a guide.
That your PvZ strat dont get punished sick by Midd game pushes is beyond me.
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Playing a lot faster forge and a bit later gas against zerg now and had to give up on the 15 nexus. But nothing else changed.
TvP has always been trouble for me but the answer was never fast zealot or void rays so nothing changed there.+ Show Spoiler +except on shakuras plateau cause it was so hilarious to charge on those rocks that are like 3 grids away from the gas
The general idea in these matchups were always to go through colossi to ht and try not to botch the forcefields fighting the way there.
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You cant 14 hatch vs a decent protoss. If they do put it up, make cannons.
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On November 01 2010 17:28 Sclol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:
(unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D) this is exactly my problem :I i'm forced to get hydras out since phoenix hard counters muta and once you have enough phoenix you can easily transition into colossus
how is getting alot of phoenix then making robo fac+bay easier then zerg putting down a spire then hydra den.. or vs versa
and like the above guy, if they 14 hatch i cannon +chrono a lot, usually i can get the expo down or low enough to kill it with a quick push when warp gates finish.
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PvT I'm with the OP as well. Get raped by bio all game, just turtle until I can get storm or hope they make a big mistake that allows me to win with Colossus.
Right now I feel like that is my saving grace, it's like one of those epic battles in movies. I'm on the side with such a tiny force being sieged upon by hordes of enemies, no chance of fighting back.
Then, when it has gone on long enough that Amulet finished researching, it's like the moment where all the reinforcements arrive and your chest fills up with warm fuzzy hope. The clouds open up, the havens shine a light down on my army and chorus of the angels engulf the sound falling Colossus. I then proceed to go to town on Terrans Bio-army with Zealot/Templar off 15 warpgates and eventually win because they didn't have the foresight to build enough production facilities for anything else other than bio.
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can someone explain to me why every single player whines about imba? I mean, how can all three races be so bad at the same time? oh wait, i got it, BUCKLE UP! Take your loss, change your playstyle, evolve, win. Simple as that.
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On November 01 2010 17:30 Luvz wrote:
You do realise that a Stalker Costs 125/50 something right? and a Roach is at around 75/25. Speed roaches is a sick hard counter to Stalker with some ling support..
You do "realise" that stalkers can attack air as well as blink if you are gona talk about roach speed.
Thats retarded to compare the two units to have the same amount of costs when 1 has shorter range and cant attack air. seriously
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I play Random and win about 60% of my PvZs. I open with 2gate (at 13 and second around 15-16 supply) to get 3 zealots into his expansion, punch a few zerglings and if possible drones and then run back and expand (usually i don't get a forge at that stage since upgrades don't help _that_ much against roaches that it's worth the investment that early and cannons are just not mobile enough).
Most Zergs respond by getting roaches, but, after those 3 zealots, sentry/stalker is a good transition to counter those roaches (roach range of 4 is still _very_ short). Get a stargate to get 2-3 phoenixes (plural?) out for scouting and overlord killing and follow up with a Robo for observers.
If he transitions into mutalisks you just put down a second stargate to get more phoenixes for almost auto-win, if he transitions into roach/hydra you continue with killing overlords and evade his hydras while getting a robo bay for colossi. Hydras are defensive, he can't pressure you very good with them, so you can take another expansion for double-robo. As soon as you have 3 colossi push out and win. Just continously produce stalkers and sentries (and if he is very hydra heavy, add zealots).
Everytime i use this strategy i win easily as mid-diamond, you just shouldn't turtle, keep pressure up.
In short: Protoss are still extremely strong, the patch changed almost nothing.
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On November 01 2010 16:47 FaTLiP wrote:
I feel that with the void ray nerf, and the previous zealot nerf, Toss is on a "juuuuuust survive" basis now. Void rays use to keep players honest, and so did the early zealot pressure. And it truely just isn't there anymore
If you looked at the patch notes at all, you would see the Void Ray was buffed and nerfed respectively among the levels of its attack.
Try using Void Rays, you can see that they are a lot better than they use to be. And not to just cheese to kill buildings but for combat among your army.
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On November 01 2010 17:47 HitStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:30 Luvz wrote:
You do realise that a Stalker Costs 125/50 something right? and a Roach is at around 75/25. Speed roaches is a sick hard counter to Stalker with some ling support..
You do "realise" that stalkers can attack air as well as blink if you are gona talk about roach speed. Thats retarded to compare the two units to have the same amount of costs when 1 has shorter range and cant attack air. seriously
But I think the point is Zerg goes for mass roach play, the fact that they can hit air means absolutely nothing. I think stalkers have to be cost effective for both ground and air targets because Protoss doesn't have allot of good anti air options.
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On November 01 2010 17:18 da_head wrote:
1600+ toss here
pvt: 1 gate fe. works wonders, but needs some scouting so you don't die to stupid shit
pvz: either 1 gate sentry fe (and use hallu to scout) or 1 base phoenix into expo
pvp: workin on a 1 gate fe style. so far it holds off 4 gate (except this super early 6 zlot 1 stalker one) and it transitions decently into collosus. if i can get it down solidly, i might post a guide.
i dunno what kind of tosses you face on ladder, but you simply don't stop 4 gate with 1 gate fe,,, u simply don't
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On November 01 2010 16:59 rsol wrote:
I really wish blizzard would just leave the game alone for a little while. please. please just leave it. no. david kim. no. stop. bad david kim
LOL'ed hard. Besides "puppy" Kim, agree that blizz just need to leave the game balance for a while, test a lot and try to make a "1.08 like" patch.
The game balance is better than ever (still with lot of flaws), the comunity and pros need more playtesting with the actual "rules", then blizz should come with an even better patch.
On-toss-topic:
PvP: Kinda boring but better with the zealot nerf.
PvT: Same as the OP. Really hard early game, but nice late with collosi followed with storms. Something funny that always happens me in this match up, is that terrans with about same ELO that me, usually have less skill. Is that the same for every low-mid diammond toss?
PvZ: Big boost for Z with the new roaches. Now going for directly macro game is harder/riskier. Trying to 15 nexus aganist mass roaches sometimes is really tough. And speed roaches now are awesome. 2 gate presure now possibly useless aganist a good Z. Probably the safer bet is 2 or 3 gate, into expand. Anyways, i still try to polish 15 nexus or Forge into FE (always followed with phoenix harass).
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On November 01 2010 17:48 Morfildur wrote:
I play Random and win about 60% of my PvZs. I open with 2gate (at 13 and second around 15-16 supply) to get 3 zealots into his expansion, punch a few zerglings and if possible drones and then run back and expand (usually i don't get a forge at that stage since upgrades don't help _that_ much against roaches that it's worth the investment that early and cannons are just not mobile enough).
Most Zergs respond by getting roaches, but, after those 3 zealots, sentry/stalker is a good transition to counter those roaches (roach range of 4 is still _very_ short). Get a stargate to get 2-3 phoenixes (plural?) out for scouting and overlord killing and follow up with a Robo for observers.
If he transitions into mutalisks you just put down a second stargate to get more phoenixes for almost auto-win, if he transitions into roach/hydra you continue with killing overlords and evade his hydras while getting a robo bay for colossi. Hydras are defensive, he can't pressure you very good with them, so you can take another expansion for double-robo. As soon as you have 3 colossi push out and win. Just continously produce stalkers and sentries (and if he is very hydra heavy, add zealots).
Everytime i use this strategy i win easily as mid-diamond, you just shouldn't turtle, keep pressure up.
In short: Protoss are still extremely strong, the patch changed almost nothing.
Havent tried much 2 gate pressure since the lot nerf, I'll give this a go and see if its better then gate/forge to try to push an expansion
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Hungary11291 Posts
I think this is rather blog material. Moving.
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On November 01 2010 17:51 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:47 HitStarcraft wrote:On November 01 2010 17:30 Luvz wrote:
You do realise that a Stalker Costs 125/50 something right? and a Roach is at around 75/25. Speed roaches is a sick hard counter to Stalker with some ling support..
You do "realise" that stalkers can attack air as well as blink if you are gona talk about roach speed. Thats retarded to compare the two units to have the same amount of costs when 1 has shorter range and cant attack air. seriously But I think the point is Zerg goes for mass roach play, the fact that they can hit air means absolutely nothing. I think stalkers have to be cost effective for both ground and air targets because Protoss doesn't have allot of good anti air options.
I think the cost/gain of roach/stalkers is perfectly balanced, AFTER roaches got the 1.1.2 buff.
Roaches don't just cost 75/25 btw, we need a larva as well.
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On November 01 2010 17:51 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:18 da_head wrote:
1600+ toss here
pvt: 1 gate fe. works wonders, but needs some scouting so you don't die to stupid shit
pvz: either 1 gate sentry fe (and use hallu to scout) or 1 base phoenix into expo
pvp: workin on a 1 gate fe style. so far it holds off 4 gate (except this super early 6 zlot 1 stalker one) and it transitions decently into collosus. if i can get it down solidly, i might post a guide. i dunno what kind of tosses you face on ladder, but you simply don't stop 4 gate with 1 gate fe,,, u simply don't
It is the timing of it. Your expo comes up when your warpgates finish researching. It is exactly like FE in TvP. When you transfer probes you have the income at that stage to constantly pump out of 5 chorno boosted warpgates. It can work sometimes, it depends on the unit composition of both armies really, but 4 gate definitely has the advantage.
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On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:I've treated Roach pressure as an auto-loss for now (aside from the obvious one base roach plays), I don't know what to do against it and if I try prepare for it I eventually get overwhelmed by Mutalisks if they happen to go Muta. So what I do is FE with cannons and hope Z go for a macro game with mass muta or Hydra, I blindly go x2 Stargate off FE, the funny thing is, I win 80% of my PvZ's now because of this because almost every Zerg goes muta :D, but the ones that go Roach destroy me T__T (unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D)
Stalkers have huuuuuuge range in comparison, so if your forcefields are ok then he either pulls back and loses a handful of Roaches, or he doesn't pull back and you kill all his Roaches.
You shouldn't have to blindly go Pheonix. Dunno why people have so much trouble with Roaches :\ Bioball is so much more terrifying in comparison
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On November 01 2010 18:00 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:I've treated Roach pressure as an auto-loss for now (aside from the obvious one base roach plays), I don't know what to do against it and if I try prepare for it I eventually get overwhelmed by Mutalisks if they happen to go Muta. So what I do is FE with cannons and hope Z go for a macro game with mass muta or Hydra, I blindly go x2 Stargate off FE, the funny thing is, I win 80% of my PvZ's now because of this because almost every Zerg goes muta :D, but the ones that go Roach destroy me T__T (unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D) Stalkers have huuuuuuge range in comparison, so if your forcefields are ok then he either pulls back and loses a handful of Roaches, or he doesn't pull back and you kill all his Roaches. You shouldn't have to blindly go Pheonix. Dunno why people have so much trouble with Roaches :\
HuK vs Idra from EG Masters gives a good idea of why I think people have trouble with roaches. HuK just loses to straight up roach pushes, even with great unit composition and force fields. Before you could kite roaches, not anymore due to the attack delay of stalkers...
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scout with hallucinated phoenixes
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On November 01 2010 18:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 18:00 Sniffy wrote:On November 01 2010 17:21 Dommk wrote:I've treated Roach pressure as an auto-loss for now (aside from the obvious one base roach plays), I don't know what to do against it and if I try prepare for it I eventually get overwhelmed by Mutalisks if they happen to go Muta. So what I do is FE with cannons and hope Z go for a macro game with mass muta or Hydra, I blindly go x2 Stargate off FE, the funny thing is, I win 80% of my PvZ's now because of this because almost every Zerg goes muta :D, but the ones that go Roach destroy me T__T (unless my Phoenix count has reached 6-7+ by the time they attack, then I crush roaches with gateway phoenix :D) Stalkers have huuuuuuge range in comparison, so if your forcefields are ok then he either pulls back and loses a handful of Roaches, or he doesn't pull back and you kill all his Roaches. You shouldn't have to blindly go Pheonix. Dunno why people have so much trouble with Roaches :\ HuK vs Idra from EG Masters gives a good idea of why I think people have trouble with roaches. HuK just loses to straight up roach pushes, even with great unit composition and force fields. Before you could kite roaches, not anymore due to the attack delay of stalkers...
In each of the game aside from game 1 HuK either a) threw away his units early or b) pushed at a horrible time and got rolled.
Not to mention you are comparing two players who aren't even on the same level. Idra normally doesn't use Roaches at all. The only reason he did was because all HuK ever does is timing pushes with Gateway units. He countered the pushes, HuK through away his units by repeatedly entering his main, and then Idra countered and won.
HuK deserved to lose.
And Roaches only won Idra 1 game. Game 3 was Roach/Hydra after a terrible Colussus push by HuK. Game 4 was HuK making a huge error.
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On November 01 2010 17:54 QkDown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 17:48 Morfildur wrote:
I play Random and win about 60% of my PvZs. I open with 2gate (at 13 and second around 15-16 supply) to get 3 zealots into his expansion, punch a few zerglings and if possible drones and then run back and expand (usually i don't get a forge at that stage since upgrades don't help _that_ much against roaches that it's worth the investment that early and cannons are just not mobile enough).
Most Zergs respond by getting roaches, but, after those 3 zealots, sentry/stalker is a good transition to counter those roaches (roach range of 4 is still _very_ short). Get a stargate to get 2-3 phoenixes (plural?) out for scouting and overlord killing and follow up with a Robo for observers.
If he transitions into mutalisks you just put down a second stargate to get more phoenixes for almost auto-win, if he transitions into roach/hydra you continue with killing overlords and evade his hydras while getting a robo bay for colossi. Hydras are defensive, he can't pressure you very good with them, so you can take another expansion for double-robo. As soon as you have 3 colossi push out and win. Just continously produce stalkers and sentries (and if he is very hydra heavy, add zealots).
Everytime i use this strategy i win easily as mid-diamond, you just shouldn't turtle, keep pressure up.
In short: Protoss are still extremely strong, the patch changed almost nothing. Havent tried much 2 gate pressure since the lot nerf, I'll give this a go and see if its better then gate/forge to try to push an expansion
The most important part about 2-gate pressure is to know when to pull out and not to overcommit. It helps a lot to use shoot-and-scoot (or rather slash-and-scoot) with zealots so they don't get surrounded by zerglings. 3 Zealots can kill more than a dozen Zerglings if microed properly and when he gets roaches out you just have to run for your life.
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If you looked at the patch notes at all, you would see the Void Ray was buffed and nerfed respectively among the levels of its attack.
Try using Void Rays, you can see that they are a lot better than they use to be. And not to just cheese to kill buildings but for combat among your army.[/QUOTE]
What game do you play??? Uncharged voids still suck, and now charged voids suck as well.
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On November 01 2010 17:50 HitStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 16:47 FaTLiP wrote:
I feel that with the void ray nerf, and the previous zealot nerf, Toss is on a "juuuuuust survive" basis now. Void rays use to keep players honest, and so did the early zealot pressure. And it truely just isn't there anymore If you looked at the patch notes at all, you would see the Void Ray was buffed and nerfed respectively among the levels of its attack. Try using Void Rays, you can see that they are a lot better than they use to be. And not to just cheese to kill buildings but for combat among your army.
Ooops. Messed up quote above. Sorry
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I've been having the same problem. I used to alternate between gateway/stargate/robo/templar-forge based on the other builds, now I feel I have to go robo every time. Void Rays just don't do enough DPS to stop roaches, stalkers, or do enough damage to threaten terran's base (Even before, 3 repairing SCVs was enough to stop them cold). Templar never were good against roaches and too many terrans are getting raven/banshee because it's just good, the detector is just a bonus. Gateway just isn't fast enough with the additional zealot time.
I think Blizz needs to actually nerf certain staple protoss units. Nerf the collosus. Nerf the warp gates. Nerf the Psi Storm damage rate. This will actually make protoss stronger in the long run, because it will make their balancing team stop assuming that's what the protoss is going to build. In some cases require improving current toss units, making these games a late-game buff instead of just something that the game is balanced around assuming you are going to get, turning an 'advantage' into a 'requirement'. In some cases it's actually better - I think that if a psi storm lasted longer, it would do better at it's job of making units run away, and you could even increase the radius then.
All in all I feel that the recent changes have been done with too much "Oh, the Protoss isn't using that strategy anyway." So much of the game isn't about winning with an attack, but delaying one's opponent in some critical way or reducing the choices he can make if he wants to win. That taking it away makes a smart player know that he can do X and there's nothing the protoss can do about it. And that just makes Protoss even worse.
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TBH, I think VRs are better for poor micro players to use mid/late game against protoss, since the +armored uncharged it makes it harder to warp in stalkers to deal with 6 or so VRs. But all the other cases they are worse.
Edit: seriously, the VR push in that supposed replay maybe was too strong, but 40% damage nerf strong?!?!?!?!?
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It seems like every balance thread goes:
zergs: we're UP!
terrans: no, we're UP!
toss: no, we're UP!
zergs & terrans: lolololol toss 4-gate ez-mode
*goes back to TVZ bickering*
no but in all seriousness, I feel like I either need to FE or do some sort of all-in, I love the long macro games that come off of a FE, but FE builds tend to be risky, whereas the 'safe' X-gate robo builds usually end up with me being stuck going all in later. The problem comes down to P tech being too forced, gate->cycore->warpgate->robo->obs is pretty critical whereas terran needs rax->orbital and zerg needs pool & expo before decisions can be made
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EPT
