• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:35
CEST 22:35
KST 05:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou21Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four3BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET7Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)81
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou The New Patch Killed Mech! Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)
Tourneys
Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle RSL Season 3 Qualifier Links and Dates $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24 Is there anyway to get a private coach? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ SnOw's Awful Building Placements vs barracks
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 ASL final tickets help [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal B
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training TvP Upgrades [I] Funny Protoss Builds/Strategies
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Sabrina was soooo lame on S…
Peanutsc
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1264 users

Balance Vs Stability

Blogs > Umpteen
Post a Reply
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 01:44:16
September 26 2010 00:07 GMT
#1
Balance, or rather the lack of it, is a pretty hot topic right now. And since everyone's an expert, this is my blog, and there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from leaving, I'm going to weigh in with a clear conscience. Fair warning.

Balance, my few remaining friends, is easy. Take a coin, stand it on its edge - bingo: balance. And right now, that's exactly how SC2 is balanced. What's lacking in cetain matchups is stability, which is much more important. Stability means players have options. They can play it safe, or they can take risks to gain an advantage. They can bring their skills to bear to cut corners lesser players could not.

So what does it mean to say that a matchup is stable? Well, a game of Starcraft is essentially an arms race, and an arms race's stability at any given point primarily depends upon:

1. Defender's advantage.
2. The specificity of tech / the degree to which quantity can substitute for the 'right' tech.

Before we go any further, it's worth asking: is it possible to have too much stability? Absolutely. After all, we do want someone to actually win. Ideally, stability should ramp up quickly (so as to permit the opportunity for cheese, but not allow it to dominate) and then decay as the game progresses, both in terms of defender's advantage and the ability for quantity to stand in for appropriate tech. We also want that stability curve to be as symmetrical as possible on both sides of the matchup. If one race has a much stronger defender's advantage, that should be offset by stricter requirements for producing the right tech in the right quantities.

When we apply this thinking to SC:BW, we can immediately see how well it works. Zerglings are strong in defence against marines and zealots, but weak in attack where a good surround can easily be denied by building placement. As the arms race progresses, marines are able to hold off Mutalisks while turrets are made, Vultures are able to hold ground while tanks are being massed, lurkers delay pushes - you know, all that good stuff. At the ends of the tech trees are the units that finally nullify defender's advantage: defilers, guardians, battlecruisers, arbiters, carriers. And the races with the strongest defender's advantage (Terran, Protoss) have to be very careful to keep up with tech and macro so as not to allow Zerg an unassailable economic lead.

When we look at certain matchups in SC2, on the other hand, we can see how they violate our ideal of a symmetrical stability curve. In TvZ, Terran enjoys a distinctly greater defender's advantage prior to Hive tech. But far from this being offset by a need to tech correctly in response to Zerg play, it is Zerg, lacking any meaningful defender's advantage, who is obliged to get exactly the right tech in exactly the right quantities so as to avoid losing immediately or being economically crippled, either self-inflicted or through harassment.

This state of affairs comes about thanks to Terran's well-stocked larder of aggressive options, ferociously rapid and economical tech-tree (everything bar ghosts and battlecruisers can be unlocked within 185 seconds of the first barracks going down for around 650m/350g), and the fact that for Zerg, core functionality like shooting upwards is only attainable by either delaying tech (massing queens), committing to a unit which in all other respects performs poorly in the matchup (hydra), or massively out-macroing the Terran and hoping a timing push doesn't come (Mutalisks).

Fixing ZvT means equalising the stability curve. Terran should need to care more what his Zerg opponent is doing and prepare an appropriate response - this is fair because his defender's advantage is so much stronger in the early game. Zerg, meanwhile, should be given a core unit or unit combo which is reasonably good against a broad spread of Terran strategies, to compensate for their 'open door' policy.

What would I suggest? Well, I'd seriously consider refitting Hydras as T1.5 tech: cheaper (say 75/25 and 1 food), lower DPS, and simply biological rather than 'light' (so as to cope with reapers and hellions). I'd also consider giving them a modest plus-to-armour, to allow them to deal with small numbers of marauders or fast tanks. Meanwhile I'd move Roaches to T2 and re-evaluate their base armour, DPS, regeneration and whether tunnelling claws should be an upgrade.

Why do I think that would help? Firstly, giving Zerg a solid core unit combo (ling/hydra) that excels on creep (ie in defence) boosts their defender's advantage and mitigates Terran's outrageously flexible tech options. Secondly, it gives Zerg more aggressive options at T1.5 (Terran would need to be vigilant against the possibility of hydra aggression taking down their wall-ins) and T2 (Terran would have to be wary of burrowed roach aggression, whilst not overcommitting to marauders/tanks in case Mutalisks are on the way.

Some people want to improve Zerg scouting rather than altering units. I used to think like that too, but then I realised it wouldn't actually fix the problem. The terran player would still get to do exactly whatever the heck he likes, and the Zerg would still have to execute precisely the right response in order to survive. Not to mention that tech labs and reactors make it trivial for Terran to kill an overlord scout and then tech-switch on a dime. No: Zerg needs what the other races have: a solid, dependable core unit combo that can see them through the early game and enable a variety of transitions.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: In response to a really good point about using lings/roaches/queens for defence:

Roaches, speedlings and queens can indeed defend pretty well. However:

1. Queens cannot be mass-produced reactively in the way other Zerg units can (and need to be).
2. Queen production delays teching.
3. Queens cost a lot of minerals at a time when you're trying to afford an expansion, drones and overlords and are in fact probably taking workers off gas to do so.
4. Queens consume two supply and present no credible offensive threat.
5. Speedlings present very little offensive threat in any quantity, early game.
6. Roaches present very little offensive threat in early-game numbers since they cannot attack a wall without exposing themselves to enemy fire.

For these reasons, speedling/roach/queen does not constitute a stable core army for Zerg.

Hydras at T1.5, on the other hand, could be quickly massed, giving Zerg more time to see Banshees coming and keeping the hatchery free to tech to lair for detection. They would present a credible offensive threat in conjunction with speedlings/banelings, since they can take down a wall-in. They would constitute superior reaper defence, adequate hellion defence, and, with speedling backup, be better at holding against the natural marauder transition from reaper.

In short, with hydraling you'd have yourself a solid (if sub-optimal) defensive option if Terran managed to negate your scouting, and he'd have to keep a close eye on your numbers to be sure you weren't planning on kicking his face in - more scans, fewer MULEs (unless he wants to take risks to gain an advantage, of course). You'd also be able to take measured risks, cutting corners or faking aggression to get faster tech or a better economy, rather than having to take the massive risk of leaving huge defensive holes like you do now.

*****
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Archas
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6531 Posts
September 26 2010 00:15 GMT
#2
Very interesting read. I never really thought about stability in this fashion; it makes me wonder about how Blizzard views stability, and how they respond to a situation where it's thrown out of equlibrium. Props to you for a well-presented essay!
The room is ripe with the stench of bitches!
ThE.SparkZ
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States381 Posts
September 26 2010 00:38 GMT
#3
Well played.. I like this a lot. I'd switch back to zerg if they did this
A battle between gods is just so damn beautiful
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 00:55:22
September 26 2010 00:44 GMT
#4
There is no problem in TvZ with zerg not having the tools to defend. Roaches, speedlings and queens together can defend just about anything the terran can throw at you. Between hellions (igniter or reactor), reapers, marine/tank, marine+medivac drop, hellion preigniter + medivac drop, thor +medivac drop, 2 port banshee and some kind of marauder hellion opening, zerg really cannot defend all of these. The only way to scout a terran who really doesn't want to be scouted is getting a lair+overseer before he can do anything, except you can't afford that 200/200 resources because you need it to defend early hellions or reapers. So you have to almost blind guess.

If zergs were able to get a decent economy early (hellions force early roaches or lots and lots of speedlings) there'd be no problem defending early game. Right now zerg is at the point it can barely defend anything but if you slip up macro or let hellions into your main and get a few drone kills a good terran can insta win. If you don't make any big mistakes you get the oppurtunity to go into an even macro game.

The fact is hydras at T1.5 would be no better or worse (against some kind of marine hellion drop or attack) than roaches are currently, and doesn't solve the problem of not having the money to defend everything, you have to sacrifice overlords and have a great defense to survive, we just have to deal with it.

If you want a real problem you could say its that terran units have absolutely no easily accessable hard counters to most of their units.

Marines: Weak vs banelings if you don't spread them out
Marauders: Weak against lings
Hellions; Weak against roaches but can runby or kite
Thors: Weak against lings
Banshee: No real ground weakness


Let's look at zerg:
Zerglings: Get WRECKED by hellions with igniter or large numbers of normal. Medivac or stimmed marines take them out as well. Large numbers of reapers give them problems as well with cliffs or good micro.
Roaches: Easily taken out by banshee, marauder, or thors. Even enough marines can take these out.
Banelings: Only worth making vs mass marines/marauders before speed upgrade.

So all the terran has to do is make some hellions to force roaches and delay lair tech//drain resources and he can play around with you with all his other units that are really only weak against lings. You can't afford to get banelings that early considering how ineffective they are in small numbers and how little you're going to be able to use them against most terran openers.

Zerg is only really safe once spire tech is up, which takes a long time to build and you are already distracted.

To me it feels like zerg can just about live through early game if you're good, but its razer thin right now, so we have balance but its not stable I suppose.
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 01:10:59
September 26 2010 01:10 GMT
#5
Hey, usualy I hate balance posts/threads/blogs/whatever (mostly because 95% of them are garbage and complaints), I really like and agree with your blog post. It's really convincing when you put it that way.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 01:39:05
September 26 2010 01:28 GMT
#6
@Slayer91 I agree: roaches, speedlings and queens can indeed defend pretty well. However:

1. Queens cannot be mass-produced reactively in the way other Zerg units can (and need to be).
2. Queen production delays teching.
3. Queens cost a lot of minerals at a time when you're trying to afford an expansion, drones and overlords and are in fact probably taking workers off gas to do so.
4. Queens consume two supply and present no credible offensive threat.
5. Speedlings present very little offensive threat in any quantity, early game.
6. Roaches present very little offensive threat in early-game numbers since they cannot attack a wall without exposing themselves to enemy fire.

For these reasons, speedling/roach/queen does not constitute a stable core army for Zerg.

Hydras at T1.5, on the other hand, could be quickly massed, giving Zerg more time to see Banshees coming and keeping the hatchery free to tech to lair for detection. They would present a credible offensive threat in conjunction with speedlings/banelings, since they can take down a wall-in. They would constitute superior reaper defence, adequate hellion defence, and, with speedling backup, be better at holding against the natural marauder transition from reaper.

In short, with hydraling you'd have yourself a solid (if sub-optimal) defensive option if Terran managed to negate your scouting, and he'd have to keep a close eye on your numbers to be sure you weren't planning on kicking his face in - more scans, fewer MULEs (unless he wants to take risks to gain an advantage, of curse). You'd also be able to take measured risks, cutting corners or faking aggression to get faster tech or a better economy, rather than having to take the massive risk of leaving huge defensive holes like you do now.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 25m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 214
White-Ra 198
ProTech104
BRAT_OK 70
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25925
Bisu 3927
Larva 238
Dewaltoss 156
Hyun 80
ggaemo 51
Dota 2
qojqva4012
syndereN153
capcasts102
canceldota81
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K383
Foxcn141
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu521
Other Games
FrodaN3274
Grubby2098
fl0m620
mouzStarbuck518
KnowMe160
ToD102
C9.Mang088
Trikslyr46
ViBE2
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL197
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 89
• davetesta26
• OhrlRock 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 26
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1424
• Shiphtur241
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
5h 25m
RSL Revival
13h 25m
WardiTV Invitational
14h 25m
OSC
18h 25m
SKillous vs goblin
Spirit vs GgMaChine
ByuN vs MaxPax
Afreeca Starleague
1d 11h
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 13h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 15h
CrankTV Team League
1d 16h
BASILISK vs Streamerzone
Team Liquid vs Shopify Rebellion
Team Vitality vs Team Falcon
RSL Revival
1d 20h
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.