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On September 26 2010 02:54 Jonoman92 wrote:
Anyone who thinks they are something cool because they hit diamond should just be ignored. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with being proud of reaching diamond because it's a goal for some people.
No need to rain on other people's parade and if they are being annoying just ignore it.
Well, that may have grabbed someones attention which is the whole thought behind it.
Let me first start by going back before explaining the title to this. I've played StarCraft since 1999, I've been apart of Team Liquid for almost 6 years now (and trolled it for a good while before joining). I love the scene and I love the game, what I hate right now are the fucking gamers. Yes, probably a good 95% of you asshats out there. You know who you are, I know I'm one of them to a lot of people as well so it's a mutual feeling.
Now, why do I hate the people? Well it's very simple, people have this feeling that hitting Diamond makes them superior to any and everyone else. Yes, we're all entitled to our opinion but seriously. Diamond for a lot of people is so fucking easy to get.
I'm not trying to take offence to people trying to make their way to Diamond and are having issues but so many of us know that you can stick with one build type or pure cheese to climb your way up to that "IM BETTER THAN YOU, LAWLAL IM DIAMOND WHAT I SAY IS LAW". Don't believe me on that? Read the SC2 Strategy section "Diamond 800, this is what I think".
Where am I going with all these random thoughts, well to a few points that have been said before but re-hashing them needs to be done.
Firstly
Just because you hit Diamond, doesn't mean you're better than someone in Plat or even Bronze. Not everyone masses games on Ladder, just because you're 200-200 means you have time to play more games. Get off your fucking horse.
Secondly
Former skill has no merit on SC2. What do I mean by this? SC2 has taken away a lot of the management that made BroodWar something very tough to jump into at the later stages before SC2. This is a great thing for new gamers to SC2, but it also brings upon a lot of shit that until set strategies are mastered will just rain down more cheese and bullshit. Some of the worst ones at all of this, those fresh Diamond players who only know how to 5rax reaper or 4gate all-in (no one plays zerg  ). Try varying your game style, because cheese only works so well and if it's stopped you're screwed. It's a double-edged sword that a standard opening can rip through if done properly.
Thirdly (is that even a word?)
Let me jump to this recent topic about TvZ. Yes I understand the strategy forums are there for helping people, but look at one of the first things said "Diamond 1300". Some of the advice that is posted, is actually awesome but will often get skipped over because it's something like:
WCH wrote:
he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines.
It was completely thrown out because it wasn't some huge list of "Do this, build that, copy what I do". The fun of the early stages of a game, are coming up with your own timings, your own pushes.
What does all of this mean?
Well, nothing because people will bitch about it but I digress. The last example (no offence to FindingPride, you were the first topic I saw on the main page) shows my exact point, someone brings in their Diamond rank and their rating. People have it in their minds that 1300 is this god-tier level that cannot be matched but you'll often see more people as of late in this area, why? Because the ladder isn't a proper ELO that hurts the users more for losses than it should. Someone with a 50% win ratio should be able to sit anywhere near 1000 (not that FindingPride is or isn't, just an example).
TL;DR and summary
Diamond players are like high school preps, the higher their "standing" the more stuck-up they become. Rating means shit-all because most are from mass game. If you want help, don't fucking post about your rank and rating because no one cares. Everyone needs advice and practice.
ps, I'm Diamond 600 (44 games) 68% win ratio. (@ mods, just ranting, if there's an issue somewhere I'm willing to modify^^)
  
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Biochemist, I've read that before :p Kind of where the idea stemmed from, but I felt the need to rant on my own :p
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I love reading about these rants, cuz it just shows how immature most people are on tl
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they're wrong, and you're wrong.
Rating means something, but its not an end-all.
You want to paint it white and black but the truth is its not that simple.
Maybe you shouldnt post you rating while asking for advice. Maybe you should- there is no harm.
But one thing is for certain if you arent in the top percentile you have no business giving out advice.
And a 1800 player with a lot of games played might deserve more respect then a 1800 player with few games played. It's too easy to get 1800 if you just abuse your bonus pool and play when you're at 100%. But will you learn much from milking it like that? Not really.
So, all in all, the ladder rating is the best measurement of skill we have, aside from tourney results.
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Nice rant.. and I hate to break it to you but there is no friggin way people in bronze/silver/gold are better than diamond players, that just makes no sense. Maybe mid-diamond players could be better than a diamond with slightly higher points, but thats about it. If you are good.. a few games would get you really high on the ladder, we're not talking about more than 2 hours of daily gaming here.
I agree though, some people who claim to be diamonds provide really shitty advice.Although people in the lower tier tends to spew out ever weirder shit than what bad diamonds have to say.
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you sound mad and i dont agree with anything you said at all
ppl like you give TL a bad name
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Why can't we all just get along ! ?
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lol u got mad over what? raging cos u are 9 year vet that doesnt get respect from the mehh diamond crowd because u are part of the mehhhhhhh diamond? no really. im not hating on you but if you want to prove to everyone that they are bad and should shuttup u have to whore the ladder and become one of those 1600+ players otherwise u become one of those im better than you without proving anything ppl. yes u have become ur worst enemy
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Its actually pretty tricky business. If you put how good you are in your post, a lot of people are gonna think like you did (and not saying theres really anything wrong with that). However, if you don't post how good you are, people are just gonna dismiss your post under the assumption that you're awful. The only real way to get around this that I've seen is to be one of the rather small group of people that TL readers will have actually heard of/have some respect for.
Luckily, I dont post too much help/strategy. :D
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I don't get why you think sticking to one build type is bad. Most top progamers in BW stick to one build type with very minor variations just because it is so solid.
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with stating your rank/points/ w/e as long as you don't act like it actually means anything. And if you don't someone is always going to jump in like "I disagree with you there fore you are a bronze player, and I am right because I'm 900 points diamond and you didn't state your rank". It's just an idiot-filter, we don't need that guy replying, y'know? There is absolutely no other way to assert authority (unless you're a known player), so disclaimering a post with your rank is perfectly fine because there are no other options.
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the only time i really hate when someone throws their rank around, is when they are giving advice that is completely wrong, or are arguing with a truly good player. I like iccups system far better, but I think if blizzard stops making lame decisions, they could really have a good laddering system.
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1300 means you are in the top ~3000 players in the world. That isn't exactly noob territory considering there are millions of players.
That being said, I don't ever go to the strategy forums anyways because 99% of the people who post are fucking retarded.
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ps, I'm Diamond 600 (44 games) 68% win ratio. (@ mods, just ranting, if there's an issue somewhere I'm willing to modify^^)
If you want help, don't fucking post about your rank and rating because no one cares. Everyone needs advice and practice.
wut
Look someone sounds like there just butthurt.
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1k diamond player here and this is what I think 
i agree that diamond is easy as balls, but the way high up diamond ranks are pretty legit
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On September 26 2010 00:38 DyEnasTy wrote:
the only time i really hate when someone throws their rank around, is when they are giving advice that is completely wrong, or are arguing with a truly good player. I like iccups system far better, but I think if blizzard stops making lame decisions, they could really have a good laddering system.
This, but I'm pretty sure blizzard is making the ladder like this on purpose because if not newbs will be stuck at their current ranking forever which is pretty unmotivating and would probably turn them off of playing as opposed to steadily gaining points. I mean in ICCUP I think I was stuck in C- for like 4 seasons, touched C once then promptly fell back to C- (this was obviously done while avoiding koreans too). But yeah once you get to like 1200 diamond, people usually know what they're doing (probably like D/D+ on ICCUP)
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Half, I posted that at the end to see how many people actually read through, nice to see you did .
Also, to the people saying that I'm mad or angry, it's far from that. It may have come off that way with throwing the odd swears in there, but I find it to be more funny than anything.
On September 26 2010 00:15 dinmsab wrote:
Nice rant.. and I hate to break it to you but there is no friggin way people in bronze/silver/gold are better than diamond players, that just makes no sense. Maybe mid-diamond players could be better than a diamond with slightly higher points, but thats about it. If you are good.. a few games would get you really high on the ladder, we're not talking about more than 2 hours of daily gaming here.
The reason why I'm re-quoting you here is that not everyone ladders, or ladders often :p. There are a lot of people that just play within their team that may only have a silver rating from their placement when the game first came out, but would easily be at a 1000+ diamond ^^
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Uh. Almost every player, if they would be 1000+ diamond, is 1000+ diamond. It's actually not hard to get that rank, at this point in the game's release. There may be a few exceptions, but not very many. Even HuK masses games on ladder, and he plays professionally. Even the pros in teams still ladder.
Also, massing games doesn't get you into diamond. You need to consistently beat other diamond ranked players, which explains the massive amount of bronze players. Going 200-200 in bronze will keep you in bronze. There are probably some bronze players with those statistics.
If you play more, and you're not at the very high end, of diamond rank 10 or above, your win rate is going to drop down more and more, because the matchmaking system tries to push your winrate to 50%. Most diamond players above 50 still have a winrate better than 50%, but it's not obscenely high, except for the top players.
Yeah, diamond points X isn't a perfect indicator of skill, but it's fairly decent.
As many people in many other threads have said, having bad mechanics means you won't be able to understand the game at the same level. You just won't. You don't do all the things you need to be doing, and so your view of the game is skewed. Becoming better comes from you getting better mechanically, which also helps you get better strategically.
I hate all the posts that offer help because basically all of them are stupid, and come from players who clearly don't understand the game. But diamond players tend to be just a little less stupid.
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Getting in diamond is like getting a driver's permit
and getting 1300 is like getting your first car (and goes up ~50-100 every week cuz of the ladder system)
1000 now is not 1000 2 weeks back zomgD:
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so some random 300 diamond player who's at 80% win rate is better than 1800 diamonid@55% win rate because 300p player doesn't mass games? Players who mass games will improve even at least a bit even if their games aren't top level. It's like saying that jaedong and flash are nobody and noobs because they mass games while some C- players who play 2 games a week own.
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On September 26 2010 00:19 mOnion wrote:
you sound mad and i dont agree with anything you said at all
ppl like you give TL a bad name
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5 stars.
Simply because it's sad, but true.
The only thing that really matters is your record, league is just a slight indication of level.
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On September 26 2010 01:13 Crawler wrote:
so some random 300 diamond player who's at 80% win rate is better than 1800 diamonid@55% win rate because 300p player doesn't mass games? Players who mass games will improve even at least a bit even if their games aren't top level. It's like saying that jaedong and flash are nobody and noobs because they mass games while some C- players who play 2 games a week own.
Where did anyone make this assertion?
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there r 37,000 players in diamond
ur @ 600 pts, that makes u worse than most diamond players
maybe u should try to at least get above average in diamond b4 complaining about how low skilled it is...
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On September 26 2010 02:04 baller wrote:
there r 37,000 players in diamond
ur @ 600 pts, that makes u worse than most diamond players
maybe u should try to at least get above average in diamond b4 complaining about how low skilled it is...
I don't believe I complained about the skill in diamond, thanks for reading the title and the TL;DR =]
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I am in diamond with 479 bonus points. I doubt there's many people with more bonus points than me so in some respects I am better than everyone
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On September 26 2010 02:01 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 01:13 Crawler wrote:
so some random 300 diamond player who's at 80% win rate is better than 1800 diamonid@55% win rate because 300p player doesn't mass games? Players who mass games will improve even at least a bit even if their games aren't top level. It's like saying that jaedong and flash are nobody and noobs because they mass games while some C- players who play 2 games a week own. Where did anyone make this assertion?
"Firstly
Just because you hit Diamond, doesn't mean you're better than someone in Plat or even Bronze. Not everyone masses games on Ladder, just because you're 200-200 means you have time to play more games. Get off your fucking horse."
Explain what he meant then? People who have time to improve themselves and get better should think that they are actually bad?
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I never really respect what someone's score is (in BroodWar, and probably in SC2 as well). I respect who they've beaten, what tournaments they've won... etc. People who have a series of replays against another really well known good player. That's how I found bench marks back in the day, even during WGT.
So maybe it sounds like I'm saying people should start saying 'here's a best of 5 with Tester where I went 2-3, this is my advice.' I am not. Advice topics 'why did I lose?' are always worthless. I'm saying if you've played a lot with Tester and he didn't get bored of you, then you can write up a guide about what you think is key in a match-up. Guides are about useful in a strategy forum. Unless you're theorycrafting with a person you know, you will probably never implement all the crap you're supposing.
When I look at a replay I think "How could I have won?" and I see the flaw in my opponent's play to exploit next time. Maybe that's why I don't completely suck at RTS  Literally there's no time when the answer to 'why did I lose?' isn't 'do everything better.' This rant is a little out of place but oh well. The strategy forum sucks and people ceasing to post 'LOL IM DIAMOND' won't improve it.
+ Show Spoiler +PS: Firstly, Secondly, Thirdly are cutesy/not real words. If that's what you're going for, ok (well it doesn't fit the theme of a rant), but there is no reason to add "ly."
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Chef, to your spoiler there. I always add in stupid things such as that in a "rant", hence saying what my rank is at the bottom of the post.
@ Crawler ; I think you took what I said in the wrong direction, or I may have typed it incorrectly (frequent habit). The point I'm getting across there was that, not everyone uses the ladder as a way to improve. Though, I'm not denying the fact at all that people who play a lot more games will in turn learn (or so we would hope) and improve on their gameplay.
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Anyone who thinks they are something cool because they hit diamond should just be ignored. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with being proud of reaching diamond because it's a goal for some people.
No need to rain on other people's parade and if they are being annoying just ignore it.
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your blog is filled with so much idiocy (like contradicting yourself right at the end) that I cant help but think you're "trolling" again. All I want to ask is; how is :
"he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines."
good advice? This is stupid advice, you may as well just tell someone to "play better". Some people don't have enough APM to micro individual marines, especially while being able to macro.
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On September 26 2010 03:09 Terrakin wrote:
your blog is filled with so much idiocy (like contradicting yourself right at the end) that I cant help but think you're "trolling" again. All I want to ask is; how is :
"he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines."
good advice? This is stupid advice, you may as well just tell someone to "play better". Some people don't have enough APM to micro individual marines, especially while being able to macro.
There is a bit of trolling underneath some points that I truly believe. Also, not sure what I'm trolling again on but alright.
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On September 26 2010 03:15 DreamScaR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 03:09 Terrakin wrote:
your blog is filled with so much idiocy (like contradicting yourself right at the end) that I cant help but think you're "trolling" again. All I want to ask is; how is :
"he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines."
good advice? This is stupid advice, you may as well just tell someone to "play better". Some people don't have enough APM to micro individual marines, especially while being able to macro. There is a bit of trolling underneath some points that I truly believe. Also, not sure what I'm trolling again on but alright.
see, there it is again, you just said there is a bit of trolling, then say, not sure what I'm trolling. I didn't mean to ask you if you were trolling, that was just my speculation. If you want to know why I think that, try reading your whole post over again, it doesn't make sense.
Look at IdrA for instance, all he does is KR ladder with the occasional practice partner when he can get it, but IdrA is amazing and his understanding of the game (zerg wise) is great. How can you say former skill has no importance when IdrA was just any old b-teamer on CJ Entus, and now hes one of the favorites to win everything (maybe not with all these ex-pros joining now though)..
Hell look at (some) WeRRa players compared to (some) ex BW players, all their former skills trasnferred over, WeRRa players cannot macro, but can micro, while BW players know that macro is just as important as micro.
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hello there , im 1300 diamond random players , played 500 game and i dont agree with you !
how can someone who played 1000 game can be worst that someone who played 20-30 game ?
signed
a 1364 diamond players
race: random
division: diaarebetterplayers
rank : 12
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On September 26 2010 00:15 dinmsab wrote:
Nice rant.. and I hate to break it to you but there is no friggin way people in bronze/silver/gold are better than diamond players, that just makes no sense. Maybe mid-diamond players could be better than a diamond with slightly higher points, but thats about it. If you are good.. a few games would get you really high on the ladder, we're not talking about more than 2 hours of daily gaming here.
I agree though, some people who claim to be diamonds provide really shitty advice.Although people in the lower tier tends to spew out ever weirder shit than what bad diamonds have to say.
im in gold and i can convincingly take games from my friend who is in diamond
going off on that, my friend was c- on iccup in bw( i was d) and previously i could never beat him, but with the super simplified mechanics in sc2 it lets sum1 like me with less focus, management ability, and raw handspeed win against someone who outranges me in those categories.
all in all, the ranking really doesnt tell you what skill level you are
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On September 26 2010 03:29 Terrakin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 03:15 DreamScaR wrote:On September 26 2010 03:09 Terrakin wrote:
your blog is filled with so much idiocy (like contradicting yourself right at the end) that I cant help but think you're "trolling" again. All I want to ask is; how is :
"he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines."
good advice? This is stupid advice, you may as well just tell someone to "play better". Some people don't have enough APM to micro individual marines, especially while being able to macro. There is a bit of trolling underneath some points that I truly believe. Also, not sure what I'm trolling again on but alright. see, there it is again, you just said there is a bit of trolling, then say, not sure what I'm trolling. I didn't mean to ask you if you were trolling, that was just my speculation. If you want to know why I think that, try reading your whole post over again, it doesn't make sense. Look at IdrA for instance, all he does is KR ladder with the occasional practice partner when he can get it, but IdrA is amazing and his understanding of the game (zerg wise) is great. How can you say former skill has no importance when IdrA was just any old b-teamer on CJ Entus, and now hes one of the favorites to win everything (maybe not with all these ex-pros joining now though).. Hell look at (some) WeRRa players compared to (some) ex BW players, all their former skills trasnferred over, WeRRa players cannot macro, but can micro, while BW players know that macro is just as important as micro.
I thought you had meant I had trolled somewhere else, I confused myself there :p.
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Omg Jonoman you're famous!
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You do realize people post their ratings so you can have some gauge of their skill level... right? The game plays completely different at all skill levels... advice is not always relevant to certain players.
To people below Diamond, when someone says they are 1000 point Diamond it may appear it is some kind of brag, but in reality they have a pretty realistic idea of how good they are and are most likely embarrassed if anything about plateauing at that specific number.
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While individual rating might not accurately correlate with player skill 100% of the time, certain point ranges correlate with player skill most of the time.
For instance, I can say with certainty that 1500+ is generally going to be a very good player.
1300-1500 is going to be a player who sorta knows what they're doing, but has some sort of glaring flaw in their gameplay (maybe their builds are off, or their mechanics are bad)
1000-1300 is like the 1300-1500, but perhaps they'll have lesser mechanics, or their strategies are less refined.
And of course, as rating goes down, decision making gets progressively worse.
If I could have my way, ratings would be posted on every single post. Why? Because although rating might not work all of the time, I can get a pretty good feel for someone's experience and skill levels from that one number. And someone who's more skilled and more experienced will inherently know the game better than someone merely theorycrafting from watching replays. If you think you know more about strategy than someone better than you, you're probably god awful.
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While I assume most folks agree with your point of "rating isn't everything - stop acting like it does," that also means that no one really acts like their rating is everything. You also seemed to strawman it out a bit when saying things like "bronze players can be better than diamond players," which is true theory, but not really in practice.
In practice "rank one golds" will give out advice like it is gospel and folks need a way to filter the results of discussions. Nothing is black and white -- everyone has to wade through the same pools to try to find gems of information. Knowing ratings is just one tool to make that easier.
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On September 26 2010 04:15 SCC-Faust wrote:
Omg Jonoman you're famous!
well ya of course
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On September 26 2010 02:22 Crawler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:01 Biochemist wrote:On September 26 2010 01:13 Crawler wrote:
so some random 300 diamond player who's at 80% win rate is better than 1800 diamonid@55% win rate because 300p player doesn't mass games? Players who mass games will improve even at least a bit even if their games aren't top level. It's like saying that jaedong and flash are nobody and noobs because they mass games while some C- players who play 2 games a week own. Where did anyone make this assertion? " Firstly
Just because you hit Diamond, doesn't mean you're better than someone in Plat or even Bronze. Not everyone masses games on Ladder, just because you're 200-200 means you have time to play more games. Get off your fucking horse." Explain what he meant then? People who have time to improve themselves and get better should think that they are actually bad?
He said that people who ladder more or have a higher rank are not necessarily better. You seem to have interpreted this as meaning that people who ladder less are therefore, by default, better than those who ladder more.
I'm not an expert in logic so I don't know all the formal terms for what you just did, but perhaps you should read the part you quoted along with your reply again and see if you can figure out where you went wrong.
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On September 26 2010 09:27 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:22 Crawler wrote:On September 26 2010 02:01 Biochemist wrote:On September 26 2010 01:13 Crawler wrote:
so some random 300 diamond player who's at 80% win rate is better than 1800 diamonid@55% win rate because 300p player doesn't mass games? Players who mass games will improve even at least a bit even if their games aren't top level. It's like saying that jaedong and flash are nobody and noobs because they mass games while some C- players who play 2 games a week own. Where did anyone make this assertion? " Firstly
Just because you hit Diamond, doesn't mean you're better than someone in Plat or even Bronze. Not everyone masses games on Ladder, just because you're 200-200 means you have time to play more games. Get off your fucking horse." Explain what he meant then? People who have time to improve themselves and get better should think that they are actually bad? He said that people who ladder more or have a higher rank are not necessarily better. You seem to have interpreted this as meaning that people who ladder less are therefore, by default, better than those who ladder more. I'm not an expert in logic so I don't know all the formal terms for what you just did, but perhaps you should read the part you quoted along with your reply again and see if you can figure out where you went wrong.
It's obvious that many play custom games and are probably at diamond level with their plat league but you statement is a bs. Unless bronze player practises only with diamond players and masses still about the same ammount of game or even more. You also wanted me to read the part I quoted and my reply... ok: "just because you're 200-200 means you have time to play more games". So bronze player who doesn't have time to play more (custom) games can be better that diamond player who masses ladder? Only way it can happen is when diamond player has down syndrome and bronze player has insane talent and yet didnt learn anything from first placement matches or just lost them on purpose. You are not the OP. Stop interpreting his ideas when you clearly can understand what he meant by typing this crap.
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No, you're still wrong. I'm not going to argue this any more, except to say that perhaps you should try to read posts in context instead of zooming in one one badly-written phrase.
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EPT
