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The teamliquid community is a very confusing place. It's welcoming at times, and then, at others, it's the shittiest place anyone with any opinion can go to. Part of the reason why it's so confusing is because of the really solid heirarchy, which basically goes like this:
1. Admins and actual Teamliquid members.
2. Mods
3. People who contribute a lot to the site. A.K.A meaningful blogs, etc.
4. People with lots of posts.
5. People with lots of posts.
6. People with a low amount of posts.
7. People with very low posts.
8. People who are newcomers to the site.
4-7 are where I have problems. The reason I have problems with 4-7 is that, quite a few times, the people with "lots of posts" got those posts from either
A. Trying to be wannabe mods.
B. Flaming others (refer to A)
C. 4 word posts. "Lol Cool story bro."
D. Flaming others (refer to A-B)
E. Trying to be mods.
Not saying that there aren't people with several meaningful posts, but really, this is what I've been seeing from a lot of the "veterans".
I don't like this system. I don't like how, just because I'm a bit newer to this community than someone else, my opinion all of a sudden is of less worth. You don't know what kind of person I am, and my post count definitely is not a direct reflection of myself.
I also have problems with some of the mods. Not saying all of you are bad but... Power abusers much? This is a blog so I feel like I can express my opinion when I say, wow... Some of the mods are the biggest trolls I have ever seen. You may contribute a bit to the site, but don't ruin your reputations by being so incredibly harsh to people. Yes, there are several people that deserve some of this harshness, but try to be reasonable with it.
The only way for a community to be seen as welcoming, is if it is actually welcoming. Teamliquid's a great site, but on the community side of things, it's EXTREMELY unwelcoming at times. I just wish it wasn't like this, and that there were ways for everyone to be able to express themselves equally, without the need for posts like, "Use the search function noob", or "cool story bro."
If I have something I want to say, I don't want to have to make 1000 points beforehand, just to say it. That's really all I'm saying.
 
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yeah, its an endless cycle
pissed off mods make harsh rules and ban people easily, then rules are "enforced," then the community takes up a drastically intolerant attitude and aren't very lenient to some people who don't really know their way around etc etc
EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, had a bad day
2. he abruptly closes a thread about something that has already been made
3. suddenly, the rest of the community (numbers 4-8 on your list) learns to be harsh to everyone who isn't highly resourceful or etc
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, feelin a bit RAAGEy
2. bans someone who isn't completely on topic, or completely nice about things
3. rest of community feels obliged to shit on every little kid who isn't SRS BZNZ
yea sometimes it pisses me off too
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Have you ever been invited to a friend's friend's house to enjoy a party? Do you randomly decide to check out what's in all the drawers and eat the food randomly in the fridge? If you did that do you think the host would be happy? Now if his best friend did it, do you think his best friend would be as likely to be yelled at as you?
There's a reason posters of old get a bit more leeway.
1) they've already proven themselves to the community that they're not going to dick it over
2) they've been here longer and are thus generally older and thus more mature
Give some examples of people with high posts that are from 2005-2007 who got there from the reasons you posted. I'm pretty sure they are few and far inbetween.
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Yo thedeadhaji is about to answer a question about tl elitism so get on that shit.
Also the community in general became far more acidic after the launch of SC2 beta. Not because every BW vet hates sc2 and all it brings, but just because of the massive influx of uninformed disrespectful new posters. It's been a real strain on the mods to police so many new users, and unfortunately I agree with you that a lot of newer well intentioned posters are getting shut down in the splash damage.
TL was pretty tight nit for a long time. I only joined in 2009 after 2 years or so of lurking, yet even then the community was simply smaller. I think TL is just having some growing pains.
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I think if you take a look at the Ban List, you'd find that the vast vast majority are people who are newcomers. I think that it can be disheartening that newcomers are somewhat discriminated against, but at the same time thats actually where most of the problems with shitty posting is. I'm not saying all, but most. If you're still around by the time a couple years have gone by, there's usually a good reason for it...
Someone telling you use the search function isn't insulting you, its just telling you to use the search function before you make a news or related post... common sense that we don't want to clutter up the forums with stuff already posted. As far as I know, the "cool story bro" is being clamped down on, even among vets and I definitely don't see it as much as I used to...
I don't support all the elitism around tl... but some of it at least is warranted... kinda a "respect your elders" thing
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A and E are the samething in your second list. Also people with lots of posts are mentioned many times in a row.
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Also, perm bans aren't usually just one mod deciding "lulz BANTIMEZ", usually they talk it over and agree on it. I'm sure it's the same way in a lesser extent with temp bans.
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United States4053 Posts
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
without the need for posts like, "Use the search function noob", or "cool story bro."
For the record, I think posts that contain only "cool story bro" are instant-ban.
I actually think level of contribution is more important in the hierarchy than post count, it's just that many people with high post counts have contributed in the past. I've seen excellent posts from people with 5 total post count, and I've seen utter garbage from people with posts in the thousands.
I think it's probably not about what the community can do for you, but what you can do for the community.
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Lastly, you don't have to have a lot of posts to be noticed.
For example, this one guy has 51 posts, he makes a blog and then suddenly lots of people respond with walls of text.
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On September 19 2010 12:01 LSB wrote:
Lastly, you don't have to have a lot of posts to be noticed.
For example, this one guy has 51 posts, he makes a blog and then suddenly lots of people respond with walls of text.
Oh you. 
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If you have trouble getting your point of view across, it probably has nothing to do with your post count and everything to do with you either being unable to express your views coherently or just having really bad ideas. It doesn't really matter if you have 10 or 10,000 posts, it's just more likely that by 10,000 posts you would have learned a thing or two or been banned well before that.
All I know about your posting is this blog expressing the flaws in a forum you have only briefly been apart of, and this blog which is awful and apparently was in the SC2 forum to begin with, making it even worse.
There might be a high correlation between low post counts and absolutely terrible posting, but most posters judge the content of your post rather than your post count, and pretty much all the mods are incredibly fair, sometimes to a fault (release the kraken please). So I can't say I agree with your criticisms
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Now I understand what you're trying to say, but from my experience on TL... TL was never about quantity, it was a small tight group of mature gamers. Teamliquids goal isn't to be the site that every single SC2 player goes to, it's where people with a serious love for the game go to.
TL is also a forum like no other. It's not your regular one like any other forum, it's much more than that. And therefore it has a hierchy, much like every single thing in life besides the ordinary forums. The reason your opinions are sometimes not valued so much, is because when you see 20 post people and most of them say stupid things, it's easy to assume their all like that.
Yes, starting is never easy, but as long as you contribute and stay active on the site for time you will get respect. Can you blame the admins to have shorty threads or posters in a site they have worked years to make so great. And the thousands of hours of time put in?... TL if anything is being too easy on the new guys, but hey! We don't want to scare them away, and some will smarten up, and as the game gets older you can expect the quality of the forums to increase.
Remember, one reason TL is as it is is because many members are players who have been playing SC1 close to 10 years and they have aged; starting while they were in their older teens.
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Well, you guys actually put some good points. I think the way Teamliquid works at the moment, elitism is the way to go. I still think that if there was just a tad bit more respect towards newer people trying to make a post, teamliquid would be a much better place.
For example, I created what in my opinion, was a reasonably lengthy Hotkeys thread on the SC2 forums. Not knowing that there may have been 5 other threads similar to it, I posted it. Instead of people focussing on the actual discussion being made, some could only care about the fact that "they've seen threads like it before."
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Oh btw Floor-exercise, this isn't the thread that was made in the SC2 forums. It was another one about reasons to switch from Terran to zerg, which I'll admit, was very immature of me to put in the SC2 forums.
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United States24615 Posts
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
I don't like this system. I don't like how, just because I'm a bit newer to this community than someone else, my opinion all of a sudden is of less worth. You don't know what kind of person I am, and my post count definitely is not a direct reflection of myself.
Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pretty much how every community works. Some people become highly-respected very early. Perhaps you are not one of those people.
A lot of users do a lot of stupid things (some of which you pointed out), but there would be 5x as much without a lot of moderation... and there's of course always room for improvement to weed out more bad stuff.
Also you are similar to many users in that you probably think moderation of a huge community by a large team isn't incredibly difficult to do. Honestly I thought it was pretty easy until I saw how it works behind the scenes. The amount of documentation that goes into defending a request for a permanent ban is often comparable to the amount of documentation a modern-day teacher needs in order to fail a student. Just one example...
But one goal of tl is to figure out ways to make tl more accessible to newer users without dragging down quality standards for posting and discussion. Your voice is heard.
edit: please don't submit addendum's in the form of new posts... if there haven't been any posts by anyone else yet then just edit it into the bottom of your prior post...
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we need to all just read more and post less. this way u wont be making multiple threads with the same topic. also use the search thingy
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Micronesia, you also make a very good point. See, I like being able to discuss things; I don't mind people "raining on my parade" as long as they bring up a good point, and your point is valid. Moderation helps reduce the types of posts that I really dislike. However, moderation without prejudice is what I'm really getting at
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I'm going to assume that this came from what happened in your previous thread. You don't get respect here until you earn it, same as everywhere else. You don't get repsect by coming in and saying "Yeah I'm switching race, all you people are QQing too much". My first impression of you after that post is "I'M IMPORTANT, EVERYONE LOOK AT ME". This is probably not you, but thats the vibe I got from your last thread. Your post count may not be a representation of you, but what you post definitely is. To be honest, you're last post should have been a blog, and the people telling you that are not trying to be mods, they're trying to tell you what type of post belongs in the SC2 section and what belongs in blogs.
I don't think I agree with the order 4-7, it should be like:
4. Good posters with lots of posts
5. Good posters with small amounts posts
6. Bad posters with lots of posts
7. Bad posters with small posts
The things is that a lot of new members join teamliquid and they don't understand the posting policies implemented here. All the things you mentioned in your list of A through E can get you banned, so a person with high post count must have done something constructive to not be perma-banned.
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Back in 2005, I thought the same thing. My first account had about 2.5k posts on it and I asked for it to be banned because I didn't like the system or some shit like that. Then I realized I was the douchebag with the problem and I was a shitty poster and pretty much cleaned up. Once you're here for a while you realize it's not elitism, it's just that we come to know each other. I don't always agree with the people on this site, but I have come to respect many of them because I have read their posts for a long time.
When new posters come in doing stuff like posting a thread for the fifth or sixth time, we don't tell them that it's a thread that's already been made because we hate them, we tell them because they're breaking the forum etiquette/customs/rules and need to be educated. We're not trying to moderate them. We're just giving them notice that "hey, you should search before posting to see if it's been posted" because we don't want the site cluttered with dozens of exactly similar threads.
Also, we warn you so the mods don't. Us saying something is better than an official mod warning, because those count against you for bans.
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I remember there was this thread called a "Coup detat". In TvZ you basically use nukes end-game to attack several different fronts to throw a zerg army off. Or was it TvT? Either way, I remember the thread beign enormous, having lots of positive replies, and actually being filled with information. It was somewhat... idealistic, but it was a very fun thread. However, some random moderator thought it would be a good idea to close a thread that people were actually having a fun discussion with. I find that sorta weird, because the only reason given was "Don't be stupid".
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Well the thing with forums is, it's very easy to judge a person based on a single action xD
Let's say for example haji, that the first post I ever saw of you was something I would consider douchey. After that point, it would be very hard for me to change my impression of you, regardless of how great of a contributor you are to teamliquid as a whole(and we all know you are lol). The first post of yours that I did see was you welcoming me to Teamliquid on my other blog post, and so I now consider you one of the nicer people on TL. It's weird how that works out, and how simple it is.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:21 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Well the thing with forums is, it's very easy to judge a person based on a single action xD
I mean the flip side of this is that, you do a few epic things on a site, and then everyone knows you in a positive manner right?
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On September 19 2010 12:24 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:21 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Well the thing with forums is, it's very easy to judge a person based on a single action xD I mean the flip side of this is that, you do a few epic things on a site, and then everyone knows you in a positive manner right?
Like make the most epicest blog evahhh? lolz :D
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:25 TheEpicLolz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:24 thedeadhaji wrote:On September 19 2010 12:21 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Well the thing with forums is, it's very easy to judge a person based on a single action xD I mean the flip side of this is that, you do a few epic things on a site, and then everyone knows you in a positive manner right? Like make the most epicest blog evahhh? lolz :D
refer to djetterstyle's japan blogs 
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The Epic Lolz is making The Epicest blog eva Lolz? This can be no coincidence.
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Just remember, if you think tl is bad. There is a korean site where you can't even post for the first 6 months you're a member.
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^ Will do. I've roamed around on the blogs section and noticed how epic some of the blogs are. Now if only I had the time to write something actually super meaningful, with proper grammar.
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9070 Posts
The system works great. Many of the users with higher post counts were generally pretty bad at posting in their first couple of months in TL (I was smth like SuperArc but my english was worse), but the good thing is, that TL always gives you a chance to fit in and find your way to contribute. Ofc when you are willing to do so. When I've settled for doing gfx for a long period of time I was absolutely hopeless in it, but I kept sharing my work and ppl were very encouraging to me. So its pretty much about your intentions really, its great that the current system rewards the good effort and destroys the baal like attitude on sight
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On September 19 2010 12:25 TheEpicLolz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:24 thedeadhaji wrote:On September 19 2010 12:21 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Well the thing with forums is, it's very easy to judge a person based on a single action xD I mean the flip side of this is that, you do a few epic things on a site, and then everyone knows you in a positive manner right? Like make the most epicest blog evahhh? lolz :D
Translating is a big one. Look at Milkis for an example.
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You know, I really wish there was like.. SOMETHING big that I could contribute using my sets of skill and knowledge.
The only thing I could really do is provide free SC2 lessons. But, that would be on the SC2 forums, and well... Nobody gives two shits about the SC2 forums.
Maybe I'll make another blog post, and ask people about ways I could positively contribute to this site. xD
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On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
The teamliquid community is a very confusing place. It's welcoming at times, and then, at others, it's the shittiest place anyone with any opinion can go to. Part of the reason why it's so confusing is because of the really solid heirarchy, which basically goes like this:
1. Admins and actual Teamliquid members.
2. Mods
3. People who contribute a lot to the site. A.K.A meaningful blogs, etc.
4. People with lots of posts.
5. People with lots of posts.
6. People with a low amount of posts.
7. People with very low posts.
8. People who are newcomers to the site.
4-7 are where I have problems. The reason I have problems with 4-7 is that, quite a few times, the people with "lots of posts" got those posts from either
A. Trying to be wannabe mods.
B. Flaming others (refer to A)
C. 4 word posts. "Lol Cool story bro."
D. Flaming others (refer to A-B)
E. Trying to be mods.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=cool story bro&t=c&f=-1&u=&gb=date
Do you see how many hits that phrase has on the automated ban list? Dont post mindless garbage without checking your facts. The people who have really high post counts here have them because they were able to follow the rules, at least enough not to get kicked out permanently. The rules include not flaming others baselessly and backseat modding, so again, full of shit.
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Not saying that there aren't people with several meaningful posts, but really, this is what I've been seeing from a lot of the "veterans".
I don't like this system. I don't like how, just because I'm a bit newer to this community than someone else, my opinion all of a sudden is of less worth. You don't know what kind of person I am, and my post count definitely is not a direct reflection of myself.
No its not. But read my previous point, people with high post counts have proven they can at least reign their idiocy in enough to not get banned. Theres no guarantee a low post count user isnt an idiot. Theres simply not enough evidence to support that, seeing as you havent made enough posts. The more posts you make, the easier it is to judge you by them, and if by that time you're still here, it means that you're alright.
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
I also have problems with some of the mods. Not saying all of you are bad but... Power abusers much? This is a blog so I feel like I can express my opinion when I say, wow... Some of the mods are the biggest trolls I have ever seen. You may contribute a bit to the site, but don't ruin your reputations by being so incredibly harsh to people. Yes, there are several people that deserve some of this harshness, but try to be reasonable with it.
Why should they? How does it benefit them not to have fun in THEIR house, a site of their creation, belonging to and run by them? Who are you to tell them what they do on their own site? They could go around and pm all the members horse porn and then ban them, and it still wouldnt be out of line, they have every right to do anything they want on their own site. Make your own site and you'll see noones gonna have a right to tell you what you can or cannot do on it either.
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
The only way for a community to be seen as welcoming, is if it is actually welcoming. Teamliquid's a great site, but on the community side of things, it's EXTREMELY unwelcoming at times. I just wish it wasn't like this, and that there were ways for everyone to be able to express themselves equally, without the need for posts like, "Use the search function noob", or "cool story bro."
Again, people calling others noobs randomly, or cool story bro'ing, get warned or banned. Where the hell is this drivel spouting from?
On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
If I have something I want to say, I don't want to have to make 1000 points beforehand, just to say it. That's really all I'm saying.
If what you have to say is worth hearing, people will listen. Theres a lot of low post count users on this site that are HIGHLY respected because of how well thought out their threads and posts are. If you're not gonna put any effort into it and go 'OmG tRrran iz imbalLAnced we shud totlayl delte from sc2 LOL XD EPIC WIN XD'
no, noone wants to hear it
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9070 Posts
There is a tone of work in Liquipedia, I think thats one of the quickest ways to get into contributing
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:30 disciple wrote:
The system works great. Many of the users with higher post counts were generally pretty bad at posting in their first couple of months in TL (I was smth like SuperArc but my english was worse), but the good thing is, that TL always gives you a chance to fit in and find your way to contribute. Ofc when you are willing to do so. When I've settled for doing gfx for a long period of time I was absolutely hopeless in it, but I kept sharing my work and ppl were very encouraging to me. So its pretty much about your intentions really, its great that the current system rewards the good effort and destroys the baal like attitude on sight
oh man I remember when i first joined I made a spoiler post in the vod tracker thread and got smashed for it ><
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konadora
Singapore66144 Posts
i think it lies in the generalisation that low count posters = bad posters, due to the influx of newcomers to the site thanks to SC2. of course, with these number of new posters, there are BOUND to be people who make retarded posts. it's just the few that spoil the image of the whole. tbh i felt that way in the beginning too, but later on, the bad posters were weeded out, things are getting better now imo. just takes time to adjust to the new wave of sc2-ians.
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As a general rule, you don't accumulate 3k posts by spewing nothing but swill. Does it probably happen? Sure. But take a look at the SC2 section and you'll see tons of people with 400 posts who still have worker icons. And not ever post HAS TO BE meaningful.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
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On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote:
new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
O_O hahahahahah
That just made my night, thank you so much.
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9070 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:44 konadora wrote:
i think it lies in the generalisation that low count posters = bad posters, due to the influx of newcomers to the site thanks to SC2. of course, with these number of new posters, there are BOUND to be people who make retarded posts. it's just the few that spoil the image of the whole. tbh i felt that way in the beginning too, but later on, the bad posters were weeded out, things are getting better now imo. just takes time to adjust to the new wave of sc2-ians.
yea, lets blame SC2. Actually sc2 is the root of all evil on TL. Ever since the beta came out, "Blogs" in particular ,from a source of Awesome and great balloon blogs, has turned into SC2 rant section or even worse - "My opinion on some random SC2 shit"
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United States22883 Posts
On September 19 2010 11:56 Nal_rAwr wrote:
yeah, its an endless cycle
pissed off mods make harsh rules and ban people easily, then rules are "enforced," then the community takes up a drastically intolerant attitude and aren't very lenient to some people who don't really know their way around etc etc
EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, had a bad day
2. he abruptly closes a thread about something that has already been made
3. suddenly, the rest of the community (numbers 4-8 on your list) learns to be harsh to everyone who isn't highly resourceful or etc
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, feelin a bit RAAGEy
2. bans someone who isn't completely on topic, or completely nice about things
3. rest of community feels obliged to shit on every little kid who isn't SRS BZNZ
yea sometimes it pisses me off too
You don't get in trouble because we're having a bad day and decide to take it out on you. You get in trouble because you're consistently one of the worst posters on this forum. You are, in fact, an exception to the thought that high post count users should get more leeway.
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Woah Antz, that's quite a long post.
Well, I agree with what you have to say. A lot of other people mentioned some of the things you had to say there and I agreed with those people to some extent as well. XD
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United States22883 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:48 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:44 konadora wrote:
i think it lies in the generalisation that low count posters = bad posters, due to the influx of newcomers to the site thanks to SC2. of course, with these number of new posters, there are BOUND to be people who make retarded posts. it's just the few that spoil the image of the whole. tbh i felt that way in the beginning too, but later on, the bad posters were weeded out, things are getting better now imo. just takes time to adjust to the new wave of sc2-ians. yea, lets blame SC2. Actually sc2 is the root of all evil on TL. Ever since the beta came out, "Blogs" in particular ,from a source of Awesome and great balloon blogs, has turned into SC2 rant section or even worse - "My opinion on some random SC2 shit"
Most blogs were terrible before SC2 came out. Remember when it was just a page full of homework/girl problems? To be honest, I don't think the forum (with exception of SC2 Strategy) has degenerated at all with the influx of new users. There might be more people who get in trouble, but there's also a ton more people who contribute or make interesting comments.
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konadora
Singapore66144 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote:
new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
this is so cute omg lol
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On September 19 2010 12:49 TheEpicLolz wrote:Woah Antz, that's quite a long post. Well, I agree with what you have to say. A lot of other people mentioned some of the things you had to say there and I agreed with those people to some extent as well. XD
It only seems long because I quoted your entire post in pieces. Keep in mind though, I never said that if your opinions differ from teamliquid ideals, or if you dont contribute, you will be booted. I have yet to make a single intelligent post in this site, but I mostly fly below the radar just by not letting the opinions i have that i KNOW sound stupid out. Although the few times I haven't kept myself in check I have gotten warned or temp'd for it.
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Dude, this is how every single damn community works. You go to high school and all the seniors pick on you and pull pranks on you guys because you are freshman. You go to the NFL, you carry veteran player's pads, and just hope they don't tape you on the goal post or shave your head like this
http://www.apknews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Tim-Tebow-Haircut.jpg
You go to work, and you have to earn your respect and not be a dousche. And here, unless you're an incredibly good gamer and have won tournaments or are in the top 20 world rankings or something, no one is gonna care what you say. The only other to get respect is to be a veteran and have a good post count.
But yes, I do agree with some of the mods abusing their power.For example, I remember an argument between Chill and this one guy, and after like 2 pages of arguing, Chill permanently banned that guy. However, I think mods do way more good than harm. If it wasn't for mods, we would have a rage filled site, just like 99% of the internet. I'm glad I can go on TL, read about everything thats going on in the pro scene, and be able to put up my viewpoints and discussing things with people. But trust me, I know where you're coming from, I think I got temp banned like twice, and I got really pissed off, but after a while, you learn to understand things.
Also, another good point you made was that when you ask a question, everyone just kills you. When I asked in a blog when the MSL finals was on, everyone was incredibly mean and just said "use calender, how the hell did you not see that" or something along those lines. The only nice person was Omegalisk, I think that was his name. And after that, I used the calender function which for some wierd reason I never saw.
And I kind of do think SC2 has at least degraded this site in some ways. For example, I saw a thread about how he thought being called a "foreigner" in the community was offensive
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153473 And I was just angry at how little he knew of the history of teamliquid and about the sc1 scene, that it it devoted to. Anyways I have to go back to my homework
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9070 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:51 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:48 disciple wrote:On September 19 2010 12:44 konadora wrote:
i think it lies in the generalisation that low count posters = bad posters, due to the influx of newcomers to the site thanks to SC2. of course, with these number of new posters, there are BOUND to be people who make retarded posts. it's just the few that spoil the image of the whole. tbh i felt that way in the beginning too, but later on, the bad posters were weeded out, things are getting better now imo. just takes time to adjust to the new wave of sc2-ians. yea, lets blame SC2. Actually sc2 is the root of all evil on TL. Ever since the beta came out, "Blogs" in particular ,from a source of Awesome and great balloon blogs, has turned into SC2 rant section or even worse - "My opinion on some random SC2 shit" Most blogs were terrible before SC2 came out. Remember when it was just a page full of homework/girl problems? To be honest, I don't think the forum (with exception of SC2 Strategy) has degenerated at all with the influx of new users. There might be more people who get in trouble, but there's also a ton more people who contribute or make interesting comments.
Maybe as sheer quality "Blogs" hasnt got much worse, but the topics covered before in the section created plenty of drama and legendary TL moments. Now, even if there are some great blogs, they get berried by SC2 stuff. Girl blogs were awesome, we miss those really. Just think that the last one we had was Xero's fake story.
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On September 19 2010 12:49 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 11:56 Nal_rAwr wrote:
yeah, its an endless cycle
pissed off mods make harsh rules and ban people easily, then rules are "enforced," then the community takes up a drastically intolerant attitude and aren't very lenient to some people who don't really know their way around etc etc
EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, had a bad day
2. he abruptly closes a thread about something that has already been made
3. suddenly, the rest of the community (numbers 4-8 on your list) learns to be harsh to everyone who isn't highly resourceful or etc
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
1. mod comes around, feelin a bit RAAGEy
2. bans someone who isn't completely on topic, or completely nice about things
3. rest of community feels obliged to shit on every little kid who isn't SRS BZNZ
yea sometimes it pisses me off too You don't get in trouble because we're having a bad day and decide to take it out on you. You get in trouble because you're consistently one of the worst posters on this forum. You are, in fact, an exception to the thought that high post count users should get more leeway.
o.O
if he counts as high post count then i do too? jeez i still think of myself as a little forum noobie who's trying to keep his toes clean XP
+ Show Spoiler +i hope i'm not an exception >.>
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United States11637 Posts
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Don't get too discouraged. TL loves smart, interesting people, not whiny kids that complain or troll eachother. Most of the hate comes from people operating under the assumption you are spreading: that being mean to new comers is "cool". The real team liquid is just hanging out at JWD's latest blog and laughing as the kids go at eachother's throats over the latest husky video, waiting for something epic to happen. Sometimes people get in there and stir the pot or close threads that annoy them personally. The rest of us quietly observe, interjecting only when it seems appropriate.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:59 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 12:51 Jibba wrote:On September 19 2010 12:48 disciple wrote:On September 19 2010 12:44 konadora wrote:
i think it lies in the generalisation that low count posters = bad posters, due to the influx of newcomers to the site thanks to SC2. of course, with these number of new posters, there are BOUND to be people who make retarded posts. it's just the few that spoil the image of the whole. tbh i felt that way in the beginning too, but later on, the bad posters were weeded out, things are getting better now imo. just takes time to adjust to the new wave of sc2-ians. yea, lets blame SC2. Actually sc2 is the root of all evil on TL. Ever since the beta came out, "Blogs" in particular ,from a source of Awesome and great balloon blogs, has turned into SC2 rant section or even worse - "My opinion on some random SC2 shit" Most blogs were terrible before SC2 came out. Remember when it was just a page full of homework/girl problems? To be honest, I don't think the forum (with exception of SC2 Strategy) has degenerated at all with the influx of new users. There might be more people who get in trouble, but there's also a ton more people who contribute or make interesting comments. Maybe as sheer quality "Blogs" hasnt got much worse, but the topics covered before in the section created plenty of drama and legendary TL moments. Now, even if there are some great blogs, they get berried by SC2 stuff. Girl blogs were awesome, we miss those really. Just think that the last one we had was Xero's fake story.
Just a couple days ago, 4 of the top 10 most active blogs were girl blogs!
I think the two most important qualities you can have at TL are resourcefulness and being observant. These are just general thoughts, not specifically to the OP or anything.
Being resourceful includes searching for threads, but it goes beyond that as well. It's something that people should have in real life, and it'd be nice if TL promoted that more. I have a ton of questions every day and a lot of them get answered at TL. Many relate to computer stuff, a lot relate to SC2 and strategy and a lot is just random information that I enjoy. But I almost never need to post a question about these things. It always amazes me that people use TL for their Google service, when the authority and expertise of TL members is really pretty limited. Want to know about mice? Look on ESReality. Questions about what notebook to get? Notebookforum is the best resource. Looking for various openings you can use or want to know how to beat a specific Single Player mission or some random game? Look for it on your own before asking other people to do the work for you. Being able to do research is a pretty crucial skill for every day life. Some people will say they're just lazy and that's why they don't bother, but that's not good enough for TL. If you ask a question here, you should put in at least as much effort as the people responding to you. That's how we build a community and not a Q&A forum.
That's why I don't think you can be upset over me closing that Hotkey thread. The Commandments tell you to search first and there's a message about it right before you make a new thread. And try to think about it from beyond the perspective of one person that's had their thread closed- think about yourself x100,000 other people who might post similarly if that were allowed.
Being observant will help you integrate into the forum much better than racking up a high post count. If you're observant and give it some time, you'll know what we do and why we do it. Even better, you'll get a much better perspective on things if you observe what other people say instead of instinctively posting your opinion. That means reading an entire thread before posting in it, instead of just instinctively replying to the OP. This is also something that extends to real life. It doesn't mean you have to keep quiet, it just means that you should put extra consideration into the things you say. How many people here have had a classmate who immediately asks questions before their professor finishes speaking? Or just says things as soon as they come to mind, without really processing it first. Everyone who's not that person thinks that person is a dumbass. It's a lot more tempting to do that on the internet and tons of people do it here, but we could make the place a bit better if they didn't.
There's a quote from Barry Lopez's Rediscovery of North America that I think sums it up nicely. It's a hippie book, but it fits TL perfectly.
When we enter the landscape to learn something, we are obligated, I think, to pay attention rather than constantly to pose questions. To approach the land as we would a person, by opening an intelligent conversation. And to stay in one place, to make of that one, long oberservation a fully dilated experience. We will always be rewarded if we give the land credit for more than we imagine, and if we imagine it as being more complex even than language.
In these ways we begin, I think, to find a home, to sense how to fit a place.
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i swear there ppl on tl who joined in july and have 1000 posts. Whats worse is that ppl look up to that post count when all they really are doing is spamming.
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On September 19 2010 13:46 T0fuuu wrote:
i swear there ppl on tl who joined in july and have 1000 posts. Whats worse is that ppl look up to that post count when all they really are doing is spamming.
heheh reminds me of kona/zona
except they're actually fun ^^
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As someone with hardly any posts, I can't say that I've had that experience at TL. Perhaps you should more concerned with the quality of your posts than the number of posts made before them? I mean I was sorta all iffy on making posts at the start, then it sorta just ended up seeming like no big deal. A troll with thousands of posts still is a troll, and I haven't seen the bans to reflect any discrepancy in that. Of course, given my post count maybe I haven't had exposure to as extensive a sample of posts, but given your position it seems you haven't either xD
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I'll be honest, when I came here as a noob, I was really scared, and it turned out to completely awesome. I lurked here for a year without registering, and like, this was one of my first posts...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118476
I had like four posts when I posted this. Post count didn't factor much except for a few posters at the beginning, who mostly got berated by the rest of the community.
Noobs don't have it harder then everyone else. Its just that veterans have it easier. Now that might seem like spinning the same thing the other way, but the difference is noobs don't have to display above average performance. They simply have to meet the required etiquette here on TL.net, to display that they're capable.
Obviously, someone with 5000 posts has been through it all. They are capable, so sometimes there allowed to just spam (<3?). But most of these members have also contributed tons of stuff to the community, from great threads to articles to tournys to just general good posting.
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You know, I just remembered a Bashiok quote (Bashiok is the best blizz CM ever <3) thats very relevant to this thread.
In response to someone basically complaining to what you're saying. "Why aren't these people being banned".
I wouldn't say I'm fine with what you're describing, but what I think actually exists is a culture of regular forum goers more or less knowing all there is to know. When someone comes in and brings up something that's sort of an old topic, maybe not a popular idea, or maybe info that's plainly obvious to the old timers, it's somewhat natural that they aren't going to be invitingly friendly every single time for months and months or years and years. They aren't being paid for customer service.
Remember, these forums don't revolve around you, and regulars...or hell, even the mods, unlike the blizzboards, are not being paid for there services. If you make a thread that someone has literally seen one hundred times, you can only expect them to reply courteously to a certain extent. Remember, ultimately, these people are here on Tl.net for personal enjoyment as well. They contribute a lot, for literally nothing, so its unreasonable to expect them to be super-nice all the time to someone who's basically disregarding the entire culture of TL.net out of ignorance or worse.
The D3 forums are amazingly managed despite its incredibly distant release date, and is probably the only blizzforum worth visiting. It has a great community of regulars like Risen and Friskydingo etc. Hell, its the only blizzforum that even has anything resembling a community.
All the other blizzboards ban with disregard for veterancy. Mods are more or less Nazis, except there only their on weekdays. They all happen to be shit.
If I have something I want to say, I don't want to have to make 1000 points beforehand, just to say it. That's really all I'm saying.
Anything worth saying requires exactly one post on Tl.net. If you need to make 1000 posts in order to express a certain opinion, find a new opinion or learn a better way to express it. Making good threads is something anyone can do.
Also you seem to be exaggerating. Yes, people with high post counts can sometimes act extremely sarcastic, vindictive, insulting, or belittling towards you if your being stupid. But they still can't just tell you to shut up, or "cool story bro" you.
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My only problem with the moderation here is that sometimes I'll write up some long reply to a shitty OP and by the time I'm ready to post it, the thread's already closed. My fault of course... you'd think I'd know by now when a thread is so bad it's not long for this forum.
I remember first reading Half's short post on roaches, and I just thought... "that makes a lot of sense." I don't even remember noticing his post count till someone mentioned it.
I also remember konadora's ascent to a high post-count. I think around that time, such regular and rapid translation of interviews and other content was pretty novel, so I remember that's how I first perceived him. When he made random, quick, some might say "spam" comments, I'd just think, "Oh it's Mr. translates every-interview-ever popping in for a word."
In all during my stay here I don't recall ever thinking, "Oh, that fella has a high post count but he practically never makes a post worth reading." In fact I felt the very opposite; I noticed a lot of posters who made interesting, compelling posts also sported high post counts.
On the other hand, I've seen many temp bans of posters who I'd normally associate with good behavior... but usually I'm too lazy to do the detective work to find the reason. I'll just have faith that the mods have good reasons, because I've never seen a "User was banned for this post." that I've disagreed with.
EDIT: Improper comma splice.
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if someone has lots of posts it means they have somehow managed to survive without being banned yet. Seems like a good heir-achy to me
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United States10328 Posts
On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote:
new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
pure genius
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United States335 Posts
The modding is definitely a bit draconian on TL but there's a very good reason for that. Go spend some time on other internet forums. Take a look at the threads created, the kinds of replies they get, and the general culture of the community. Hell, give the official Blizzard battle.net forums a visit. The point is that what the very strict and proactive modding accomplishes is to keep TL the oasis of sanity and even intelligence on the internet that it is. They don't really even demand good posting, but rather try to contain clearly bad or pointless posting.
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New posters can get respect if they earn it. The fact is most new posters tend to post like idiots and then bitch in blogs when they get banned for it. There's a difference between shitting on new posters and shitting on people posting like idiots. Except new posters don't see their posts as idiotic and thats where problems start. Veterans just get more lee-way because they've supposedly been a decent poster overall.
A lot of mods become mods very shortly after joining and its because of merit not some arbitrary combination of post count and time joined, that's what your icon is.
If you don't like it I imagine you shouldn't need to banned because you won't post here
An example I'll give is in any sc2 balance patch page that goes for 20+ pages I just skip everyone with low post count because 90% of them are just bitching about marauders or something stupid, and even if there's a number of people with decent feedback its much quicker to scroll through for the morrow or lalush posts. The exceptions are top players like demuslim and darkforce who don't have a lot of posts but obviously know what they're talking about.
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I know how you feel im confused sometimes too but in good way, on TL is everything im looking for and even more ^^
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On September 19 2010 11:46 TheEpicLolz wrote:
Power abusers much?
Try Turkish Football Manager communities and think again.
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Oh, man, this has been a blog post in the making for a while for me. Thanks for getting it started. From my perspective, though I do see many veteran posters getting away with regularly prohibited actions, it's not too huge a deal in terms of elitism, but general moderator conduct.
Mods are given far too much of a personal judgement call when it comes to banning. I've seen some very unwarranted bannings from people simply stating their opinion, and while some of those opinions have been touchy subjects, they should be freely (and under the rules, often times are freely) allowed to express such. It pisses me off to high heaven, because this type of community I think by nature should encourage discussion, yet the moderation really discourages any. It also pisses me off because when it comes down to the site's previous and future endeavours and staff, it's really, really a great place. It's almost the best you could ask for of a third-party SC2 community site -- except moderation is just ridiculous.
A good recent example is someone wanting to comment on the old Chill vs Combat-EX event, despite it's age. He didn't want to create a new topic, but still wanted to post about it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with topping a single, huge thread about something people still talk a ton about so he can chime in, especially when his grounds was not creating another thread about it -- what other choice did he have? Wait for the topic to spring-up in some other random thread? Anyway, he was banned for that. Yep.
Another example is from a thread commemorating someone recently deceased. In the incident involving said deceased, an other party was clearly at fault on grounds of reckless behaviour. Someone in the thread said he thought this person should have been killed too, be put to death, or something along those lines. Another poster noted that that was pretty harsh, even given the stupid actions that caused the death(s). That poster got a warning, and was subsequently banned for defending his opinion. I understand the reasoning for giving him a warning, and even a banning -- respecting the thread and it's tribute -- but if he gets a warning, why shouldn't the other person? I wasn't surprised to see that ban not in the list of bans when I looked.
I understand that, especially with so much traffic, moderators are there to eliminate the excess baggage -- three threads for one topic, shitty three-word attacks against an OP for no reason, etc -- but could you please maybe revise some of your policies?
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United States24615 Posts
On September 19 2010 23:31 Cedstick wrote:
Oh, man, this has been a blog post in the making for a while for me. Thanks for getting it started. From my perspective, though I do see many veteran posters getting away with regularly prohibited actions, it's not too huge a deal in terms of elitism, but general moderator conduct.
Mods are given far too much of a personal judgement call when it comes to banning. I've seen some very unwarranted bannings from people simply stating their opinion, and while some of those opinions have been touchy subjects, they should be freely (and under the rules, often times are freely) allowed to express such. It pisses me off to high heaven, because this type of community I think by nature should encourage discussion, yet the moderation really discourages any. It also pisses me off because when it comes down to the site's previous and future endeavours and staff, it's really, really a great place. It's almost the best you could ask for of a third-party SC2 community site -- except moderation is just ridiculous.
A good recent example is someone wanting to comment on the old Chill vs Combat-EX event, despite it's age. He didn't want to create a new topic, but still wanted to post about it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with topping a single, huge thread about something people still talk a ton about so he can chime in, especially when his grounds was not creating another thread about it -- what other choice did he have? Wait for the topic to spring-up in some other random thread? Anyway, he was banned for that. Yep.
Another example is from a thread commemorating someone recently deceased. In the incident involving said deceased, an other party was clearly at fault on grounds of reckless behaviour. Someone in the thread said he thought this person should have been killed too, be put to death, or something along those lines. Another poster noted that that was pretty harsh, even given the stupid actions that caused the death(s). That poster got a warning, and was subsequently banned for defending his opinion. I understand the reasoning for giving him a warning, and even a banning -- respecting the thread and it's tribute -- but if he gets a warning, why shouldn't the other person? I wasn't surprised to see that ban not in the list of bans when I looked.
I understand that, especially with so much traffic, moderators are there to eliminate the excess baggage -- three threads for one topic, shitty three-word attacks against an OP for no reason, etc -- but could you please maybe revise some of your policies?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96227¤tpage=87#1726
On May 13 2010 19:47 DISHU wrote:
come back combat x
User was temp banned for this post.
You consider this an acceptable bump?
You didn't give enough details for me to look up the other case you are talking about but it doesn't sound like what normally happens.
I get the feeling you haven't read this thread yet. Hm... didn't read thread -> complain about moderation without backing yourself up adequately.... this is the type of attitude we have to deal with daily... so don't be surprised if someone occasionally 'snaps' and does something slightly unprofessional. But... overall it is definitely the goal to moderate fairly and promote discussion while discouraging shit posting.
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No, I read the thread. And, unfortunately, with that specific example I can't properly back myself up, as it may not even be that thread upon review =\ I remember I bitched about it in reply within a page or two following the ban, and it was definitely a better post than that, so it may have been another thread. As I said in my post, I know it's not every moderator and every case, and I know you guys have to deal with a lot of shit, and I know not every call is going to be perfect, but it seems like more than just seldom slips of judgement.
*edit*I think my bias against the policies in general is factoring a lot in to this as well, on reflection; I think a lot of it is just my belief that some of the policies are too strict... uhh, which seems obvious now. Either way, that's my opinion. Hurpdurp, sentences starting to lose coherence. I'm going to bed before I stop making sense.*/edit*
I've said this before, but when it comes down to it, my opinion really doesn't mean shit, I know. I just try and keep it fresh in moderators' minds when they're about ready to ban someone.
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Your opinion isn't of less worth. It all depends which forum you visit.
If you visit the SC2 boards, of course you're going to drowned out. Almost everybody goes in there. Which is also a reason why I don't go in there anymore.
I think the fact that you've gotten over 60 replies on this blog shows that your opinion is not of less worth than other people. In other words, get over it.
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the Dagon Knight4002 Posts
Some of us just make atrocious blog posts, then comment in a few blogs to try to pad our post count so we can do a blog post when we get to 250 posts and call it, "SirJolt's 250th Post Extravaganza."
I'm not saying I'm definitely one of those, but if I were, where would that character fit into the list? D:
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On September 20 2010 00:42 SirJolt wrote:
Some of us just make atrocious blog posts, then comment in a few blogs to try to pad our post count so we can do a blog post when we get to 250 posts and call it, "SirJolt's 250th Post Extravaganza."
I'm not saying I'm definitely one of those, but if I were, where would that character fit into the list? D:
Uh....if you have to make a post that celebrates your 250th post, that's not just spamming, that's incompetence.
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I think Cedstick maybe referring to the thread on the death of that Relic developer who suffered a car accident with some intoxicated people who were changing clothes at the wheel. Some people got emotional at the sheer ridiculousness of that party's behavior and made death wishes and such.
The decision to punish such violent-minded posts seems to indicate that TL's stance on wishing death on another human is: it's intolerable. Personally I think that's a perfectly civilized attitude, and TL would be worse off if posters could simply express murderous intent all willy-nilly. Death threats are treated very seriously in real society, and compared to death wishes, they're similar in the most basic idea: "I want him dead."
Apologies if I totally misread the situation.
Also I can't wait for SirJolt's 250th Post Extravaganza... his blogs have been generally entertaining.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
list specific examples and then we'll address them, cedstick. there are post histories and user notes considered in every ban, which you may not see at all.
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The decision to punish such violent-minded posts seems to indicate that TL's stance on wishing death on another human is: it's intolerable. Personally I think that's a perfectly civilized attitude, and TL would be worse off if posters could simply express murderous intent all willy-nilly. Death threats are treated very seriously in real society, and compared to death wishes, they're similar in the most basic idea: "I want him dead."
Actually, it was the opposite, but equally justified.
One person, as a reaction to such a horrible event, basically wished the reverse, that the stupid idiots died. Then some guy comes in and says how that isn't ethical, etc. Which is all good and true.
However, the thread suddenly derailed into a debate about ethics. Which was clearly inappropriate for the situation at hand. A mod told them to drop it. The side championing death did, but the other guy did not, making an incredibly sarcastic statement to get "the last word".
Indeed, he did get a "last word", though perhaps not in the way he imagined lol.
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I read TL more than I should, I don't get that sense at all. I think people tend to only turn to postcount/join date when the post is bad to begin with, and want an easy insult. That's not good per se, but that is a symptom of disliking the post, rather than being elitist to low posters. Anyone complain about a 1 post, 2010 join date sockfolder making a long sc2 thread? Or the myriad of great tournament organizers/casters/streamers that recently joined but are boosting sc2/tl community?
That is much different than :
"I never played BW, but here is my opinions on why SC2 > BW, and why Flash would do badly since bw macro doesnt transfer over. Also nerf terrans, its so obvious blizerd. Even the fans can balance it better!! "
- signed, 102 posts, joined Sept 2010. (hint: this line is the least offensive part of this.)
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So why was the op banned?
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On September 20 2010 06:46 dani_caliKorea wrote:
So why was the op banned?
good riddance
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Osaka27132 Posts
On September 20 2010 01:08 EchOne wrote:
I think Cedstick maybe referring to the thread on the death of that Relic developer who suffered a car accident with some intoxicated people who were changing clothes at the wheel. Some people got emotional at the sheer ridiculousness of that party's behavior and made death wishes and such.
The decision to punish such violent-minded posts seems to indicate that TL's stance on wishing death on another human is: it's intolerable. Personally I think that's a perfectly civilized attitude, and TL would be worse off if posters could simply express murderous intent all willy-nilly. Death threats are treated very seriously in real society, and compared to death wishes, they're similar in the most basic idea: "I want him dead."
Apologies if I totally misread the situation.
Also I can't wait for SirJolt's 250th Post Extravaganza... his blogs have been generally entertaining.
If he is talking about the Relic thread, that thread was a special exemption because of the personal connection between the victim and the forum. There are many other threads where the same debate can and has been held. That was not one of them.
And as for the Combat-Ex thing, bump it with something useful or don't bother.
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EPT
