Would you consider him to be the best Zerg player? Most would say yes (given that he's played a decent amount). Would you consider him to be the best SC2 player?
There is likely imbalance, but what I'm saying is to try your best at full force and attempt a lot of different things. People who aren't near the top should never complain about balance. If you are a Zerg player who is in 1000 diamond and lost to a 1000 diamond Terran player, a 1400 diamond Zerg player would likely beat him.
Summary: There may be imbalance, but there is always room for improvement. When the time comes and everything is close to balanced, you'll be at the top. Right now is a great opportunity to improve.
On September 15 2010 12:33 Goxinatic wrote: Would you consider him to be the best Zerg player? Most would say yes (given that he's played a decent amount). Would you consider him to be the best SC2 player?
There is likely imbalance, but what I'm saying is to try your best at full force and attempt a lot of different things. People who aren't near the top should never complain about balance. If you are a Zerg player who is in 1000 diamond and lost to a 1000 diamond Terran player, a 1400 diamond Zerg player would likely beat him.
Summary: There may be imbalance, but there is always room for improvement. When the time comes and everything is close to balanced, you'll be at the top. Right now is a great opportunity to improve.
PS: Marauders OP.
It's important to consider balance from the top, but there are flaws in your point. Stork beat Koll with scouts. Does that mean scouts are good units?
1400Z vs 1000T doesn't show balance because skill makes a bigger difference. 1000Z vs 1000T might show a better example - but you're correct that a good amount of it could be changed by just playing better. Still, equal-skill players should produce roughly equal results.
In any case, you've got to play the game you're given.
I would definitely like to see how the SC1 progamers do in SC2. While July isn't as good as Jaedong, he's certainly been doing quite well in SC2!
A large part of it has to do with their training schedules and work ethics, don't forget. It's not *just* because they're Korean (lol). They practice a shitload. Non-stop. Of course they're going to get better, faster. If a progamer applied a similar training schedule to SC2, he'd do extremely well. He'd certainly make his way towards the top very soon, I think.
They'd most likely even be able to beat the top Terrans too. (Blasphemy, I know!) Of course, they need some time.
Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
I don't see how your two points are related at all but okay
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
If JD played SC2, he would rape everyone.
Unless Flash played SC2 as well !
Really?
I thought the showmatch showed TLO basically rofling all over Nada, except when he decided to be cute and put on a nuke show compared to games 1 and 3.
Having the base mechanics in place is certainly a help, but July and such have said that as everyone has solid macro now, the major thing is decision-making and strategy, which are things nonkoreans tend to look at more than pure mechanical power. A top SC1 player will no doubt become a top SC2 player if they put in the same effort, but it's not autowin when moving over.
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
If JD played SC2, he would rape everyone.
Unless Flash played SC2 as well !
Really?
I thought the showmatch showed TLO basically rofling all over Nada, except when he decided to be cute and put on a nuke show compared to games 1 and 3.
Having the base mechanics in place is certainly a help, but July and such have said that as everyone has solid macro now, the major thing is decision-making and strategy, which are things nonkoreans tend to look at more than pure mechanical power. A top SC1 player will no doubt become a top SC2 player if they put in the same effort, but it's not autowin when moving over.
When you mean everyone, you mean all the top players right?
First off, that's sort of a given. The same can almost be said about SC2....except for Flash who had unparalleled Macro. And secondly, I don't think decision making and strategy and "mechanical power" are mutually exclusive.
By honing your mechanics, timings, builds, whatever, you also get used to variations, changes that you didn't expect, surprises, etc, that also enhances decision making abilities.
Strategy only helps in so far as your ability to think on the spot. And unless you're TLO and you can think up of some crazy schemes on the spot, it's not going to help you as much. Strategy is a double edged sword in the sense that coming up with something cute is potentially throwing you out of situations you're comfortable in.
So yes, it's true that everyone has solid macro, but a Korean with "pure mechanical power" can be just as good if not better than a foreigner in decision-making and strategy since they focus so hard on it.
On September 15 2010 12:38 404.Half wrote: While Jeadong's mechanics are top-notch insane, it seems that his creative play is not his strong-suit.
Also, that's exactly what you need to be great at sc2, adaptability and creativity, along with mechanics.
Seems JD would be a beast regardless of balance though.
Why do you say that Jaedong's creativty is not his strong suit? If I'm not mistaken he is the one that really came up with, and perfect the 3 hat spire - 5 hatch hydra build that became the gold standard for ZvP, and his contributed many other things such as demonstrating the effectiveness of muta sniping templar and popularizing there use for that purpose.
Jaedong and FlaSh practice the same amount as other progamers yet they are far above the rest. Why? The same reason that there are world class grandmaster chess players and very good competitive chess players that can't reach the same level - they're smarter than their competition, have more talent and are probably geniuses. If Jaedong started SC2, it would not be a question of if he could succeed but it would be a question of when he would do so.
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
If JD played SC2, he would rape everyone.
Unless Flash played SC2 as well !
Really?
I thought the showmatch showed TLO basically rofling all over Nada, except when he decided to be cute and put on a nuke show compared to games 1 and 3.
Having the base mechanics in place is certainly a help, but July and such have said that as everyone has solid macro now, the major thing is decision-making and strategy, which are things nonkoreans tend to look at more than pure mechanical power. A top SC1 player will no doubt become a top SC2 player if they put in the same effort, but it's not autowin when moving over.
TLO won by doing things that were very aggressive and probably threw nada off since he had no real practice for the matches.
in game 2 however, nada outplayed TLO in all aspects. (the one game, where nada did not suffer a disadvantage early on)
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
If JD played SC2, he would rape everyone.
Unless Flash played SC2 as well !
Really?
I thought the showmatch showed TLO basically rofling all over Nada, except when he decided to be cute and put on a nuke show compared to games 1 and 3.
Having the base mechanics in place is certainly a help, but July and such have said that as everyone has solid macro now, the major thing is decision-making and strategy, which are things nonkoreans tend to look at more than pure mechanical power. A top SC1 player will no doubt become a top SC2 player if they put in the same effort, but it's not autowin when moving over.
When you mean everyone, you mean all the top players right?
First off, that's sort of a given. The same can almost be said about SC2....except for Flash who had unparalleled Macro. And secondly, I don't think decision making and strategy and "mechanical power" are mutually exclusive.
By honing your mechanics, timings, builds, whatever, you also get used to variations, changes that you didn't expect, surprises, etc, that also enhances decision making abilities.
Strategy only helps in so far as your ability to think on the spot. And unless you're TLO and you can think up of some crazy schemes on the spot, it's not going to help you as much. Strategy is a double edged sword in the sense that coming up with something cute is potentially throwing you out of situations you're comfortable in.
So yes, it's true that everyone has solid macro, but a Korean with "pure mechanical power" can be just as good if not better than a foreigner in decision-making and strategy since they focus so hard on it.
Congratulations on focusing on details without context.
The top SC1 players do not have such limited gameplay as to only have mechanical skill. This is why they're at the top in SC1, and if they brought that to SC2 with the same effort, they would be at the top there as well (or any other related game).
However, we've seen plenty of examples of poor decision making come up in the average professional game. Being able to 2hatch muta your way through courage isn't going to help you quite as much in SC2, and perfect gamesense isn't going to automatically flow from SC1 pros transferring over - that'll come from experience (which if they play an immense amount, is going to develop rapidly).
I highly suspect he'd be amazing. His talents and mentality to win will take him far. I wouldn't call him the best it though until he actually accomplishes something in sc2. Speculating potential is fun but only results count in real life. Let's hope we dont have to find out anytime soon.
He would not own immediatly. JD's strong point has always been his diligency in mass and mass of practice. Give him 2-3 months, and then yes, he would own anyone. Flash included
I dunno, it feels like Jaedongs success pretty much depends on perfect lurker, defiler and mutalisk control. Unlike most zergs, he is generally creative with his builds, but often the success of them is due to his control.
Flash on the the other hand, would probably come up with a brand new unstoppable terran timing attack every game.
On September 15 2010 13:52 vectorix108 wrote: sc2 is a hard transition, for everybody. who knows if he'll be good or not
lol no it isn't, the transition's damn easy for anyone coming from iccup
While the "transition" might be simple, because everyone is automatically so much better at macro it becomes a lot harder to grab simple macro wins unlike ICCUP, same applies for spell-casters and micro. You can't win by just microing 9 mutas or being good at psi-storms for instance.
On September 15 2010 13:36 cujo2k wrote: Jaedong and FlaSh practice the same amount as other progamers yet they are far above the rest. Why? The same reason that there are world class grandmaster chess players and very good competitive chess players that can't reach the same level - they're smarter than their competition, have more talent and are probably geniuses. If Jaedong started SC2, it would not be a question of if he could succeed but it would be a question of when he would do so.
I don't disagree that they have more talent, but be careful when you start labelling those players as more intelligent. They put in an insane amount of time, and that perfects their natural abilities to multitask/macro/micro, but it doesn't mean they're smarter.
On September 15 2010 12:38 endy wrote: Just seeing Nada playing vs TLO is enough to say that any BW progamer can catch up on the best foreigners in a few weeks / months. I am looking forward to reading a SC2 version of 'Foreigners suck' by our beloved Rekrul.
If JD played SC2, he would rape everyone.
Unless Flash played SC2 as well !
Really?
I thought the showmatch showed TLO basically rofling all over Nada, except when he decided to be cute and put on a nuke show compared to games 1 and 3.
Having the base mechanics in place is certainly a help, but July and such have said that as everyone has solid macro now, the major thing is decision-making and strategy, which are things nonkoreans tend to look at more than pure mechanical power. A top SC1 player will no doubt become a top SC2 player if they put in the same effort, but it's not autowin when moving over.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i'm quite sure i read somewhere that prior to that showmatch nada had only played sc2 for like 1 week - 1 month. I also vaguely recall something about nada putting up less of a fight because he had somewhere else to be LOL.
if jaedong will play SC2 he'll probably use only lings(sauron) cause mutalisks arent the same anymore. unless he can force the mutalisks to act like they were before, youll see a 200/200 army within 10mins and Blizz will nerf zerg endlessly! >.<''
On September 15 2010 12:38 404.Half wrote: While Jeadong's mechanics are top-notch insane, it seems that his creative play is not his strong-suit.
I have no idea why anyone would say this. He's like the inventor of 3hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra which is standard ZvP right now. He also helped with the evolution of ZvZ by showing off his insane mutalisk micro - forcing everyone else to get good muta micro as well. As mentioned earlier he also popuralized templar sniping with mutalisks in ZvP.
Edit:
On September 15 2010 20:41 SneakPeek wrote: if jaedong will play SC2 he'll probably use only lings(sauron) cause mutalisks arent the same anymore.
What? Why would he only use lings? It's not like he only uses lings and mutalisks in BW, so I really wouldn't see any reason why he'd only use lings in SC2 (even if he did only use lings and mutalisks in BW, I wouldn't see any reason to why he'd only use lings in SC2). Sauron-Zerg doesn't imply that you only use lings btw. Sauron-Zerg is just expanding a lot early on and getting a shitload of units. (Neo-Sauron is 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra)
Edit 2: In case you mean he'll use mostly lings, Kwanro is the one known for a lot of lings and ling all-ins.
On September 15 2010 12:33 Goxinatic wrote: Would you consider him to be the best Zerg player? Most would say yes (given that he's played a decent amount). Would you consider him to be the best SC2 player?
There is likely imbalance, but what I'm saying is to try your best at full force and attempt a lot of different things. People who aren't near the top should never complain about balance. If you are a Zerg player who is in 1000 diamond and lost to a 1000 diamond Terran player, a 1400 diamond Zerg player would likely beat him.
Summary: There may be imbalance, but there is always room for improvement. When the time comes and everything is close to balanced, you'll be at the top. Right now is a great opportunity to improve.
PS: Marauders OP.
I don't see how you could possibly think it is "fair" to have to be significantly better than your opponent at the same rating to beat him.
It's actually hilarious some of the 1500 point Terrans I face on ladder.. I doubt many of them have even played an RTS before and are just sitting there literally pressing buttons and doing 1 build they copied from a replay.
On September 15 2010 12:33 Goxinatic wrote: Would you consider him to be the best Zerg player? Most would say yes (given that he's played a decent amount). Would you consider him to be the best SC2 player?
There is likely imbalance, but what I'm saying is to try your best at full force and attempt a lot of different things. People who aren't near the top should never complain about balance. If you are a Zerg player who is in 1000 diamond and lost to a 1000 diamond Terran player, a 1400 diamond Zerg player would likely beat him.
Summary: There may be imbalance, but there is always room for improvement. When the time comes and everything is close to balanced, you'll be at the top. Right now is a great opportunity to improve.
On September 15 2010 13:15 Sfydjklm wrote: the problem is a 1000 point zerg would generally have superior mechanics and understanding then a 1000 rated terran or protoss.
And you are basing this off what exactly?
Like people have said before me: To win in SC2, you need practice. There is no autowin button for the BW progamers should they move over to SC2, they'll need to put in the same amount of practice as everyone else.
Ofcourse, no doubt they'll learn it quicker than someone who has never touched an RTS.
EPT
