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With ESPORTS negotiations breaking down, it's possible we're going to lose at least part of the Korean BW scene. Until recently this would have made me really sad, but right now I am actually pretty ambivalent. Why? Please don't read the following stuff as me complaining because that is not my point:
Basically, I think the Korean BW scene has reached its peak in Flash and Jaedong. The two of them are ridiculously far ahead of every other player and I don't think that's going to change - both of them have too good of a mindset to truly slump (as in actually start playing badly rather than just dropping a few games; obviously they're still mortal) and who is ever going to catch up to them? A new player? Doesn't seem likely. In my mind only Baby has that sort of potential.
When WCG Korea, MSL, and (most likely) OSL are all the same finals matchup, the individual leagues are actually pretty boring. Flash and Jaedong are probably closer than their recent (ie post NATE MSL) head to head of 8-4 suggests, but with the two of them splitting trophies so frequently the finals feels less meaningful. Most of the games they play aren't even very exciting; the skill level they play at magnifies the slippery slope to the point that the first mistake frequently decides the game.
There's still some room for upsets (see: Effort) but it just feels different. Winning an individual title used to be like fuck yeah, this player made it to the top of the heap, he climbed the mountain and ripped victory from its peak... now it's like how did Flash and Jaedong let this player win?
That isn't to say Korean BW now sucks and is awful and worthless; I still enjoy following it. Last season's Proleague playoff race was the most competitive playoff race ever and it was pretty exciting, so there's potential to be exciting there even if it's mostly meaningless (ACE will never make it, so the cut to the only even playoffs eliminates 5/11 teams, but that doesn't matter because SKT will probably just win it anyway). Even if the results of the games don't matter super much there's still the games themselves. And there's always your favorite players to cheer on 
If it's even possible for BW in general to die it isn't happening anytime soon. But if ESPORTS happens to mean the end of the Korean BW scene down I won't be mourning for an epic drama of turmoil and upheaval because that's already gone.
  
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I agree with most of what you said, but I completely disagree with what you say about Flash and Jaedong. Sure they make most of the finals, but this is pretty much just competition. In tennis, it's Federer and Nadal nearly all the time, but people still keep interested. And in BW, there have been many rivalries that were similar in stature to this rivalry. Remember Yellow and Boxer, I think this is like the second generation with more excitement. I think JD vs Flash is part of what keeps BW alive right now. They are both so good, its amazing to watch them. And also, there is not that much of a skill difference. Flash barely passed Fantasy 3-2, and JD wouldn't have pulled to the finals had it not been for some creative cheese. Both very well could have lost, and we would have been looking at a Fantasy Light finals. Thank goodness that didn't happen.
Also, don't take this amazing rivalry for granted, you never know if it will happen again
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MSL has always been like this: one player dominating the league for three to four seasons, this trend was only recently broken by Bisu defeating Savior. As a result, having Flash vs. Jaedong three consecutive times is nothing out of the ordinary.
OSL has always been known to generate drama (contrasting MSL: a showcase of skill), and recent seasons are no exception. Jaedong was knocked out rather early twice consecutively, and there may very well be "upsets" at this stage of the match. Counting out Stork and Free at this point is overly premature given their past performances.
Also, having the same combatants for the both leagues is not unprecedented (e.g. GoRush vs. Nada: IOPS OSL and YATGK MSL). In fact, I think these rare occurrences generate more hype, rivalry and excitement. I, for one, am wholeheartedly rooting for another FvJ final, set in Shanghai.
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On September 01 2010 09:31 composition wrote:
SONG BYUNG GOO
Yes, don't forget about Stork and other S-Class players -.-;
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4 years ago, people were wondering who's going to be able to stop Savior. It will happen eventually, and it may be sped up through the cycles of maps.
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Their rivalry is definitely epic, but the games they play usually aren't and recently it's been pretty one sided.
I know rivalries have come and gone before - what I'm saying is I don't think Flash and Jaedong are going anywhere. Time will tell if I'm right or not.
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On September 01 2010 09:45 Crunchums wrote:
Their rivalry is definitely epic, but the games they play usually aren't and recently it's been pretty one sided.
I know rivalries have come and gone before - what I'm saying is I don't think Flash and Jaedong are going anywhere. Time will tell if I'm right or not.
How is it one sided? Its only 2-1 in the finals and Jaedong won more before Flash went on his domination campaign. I would call it about 50-50 right now, with a slight edge to Flash. And the first 2 finals might not have been epic, but the last one was awesome
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On September 01 2010 09:53 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:45 Crunchums wrote:
Their rivalry is definitely epic, but the games they play usually aren't and recently it's been pretty one sided.
I know rivalries have come and gone before - what I'm saying is I don't think Flash and Jaedong are going anywhere. Time will tell if I'm right or not. How is it one sided? Its only 2-1 in the finals and Jaedong won more before Flash went on his domination campaign. I would call it about 50-50 right now, with a slight edge to Flash. And the first 2 finals might not have been epic, but the last one was awesome
Jaedong did win more before Flash turned up the heat, hence the word "recently".
I don't think you can count NATE as a straight up victory for Jaedong (imo he clearly won the power outage game though). Hana Daetoo was a boring rape. WCG was entertaining but not meaningful. Bigfile might have gone to 5 games but only 1 of them was actually good.
Here's hoping OSL reverses both of those trends 
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Individual leagues aren't just about that single Bo5 at the end of the league. You have the whole buildup all the way to the end to watch, and most of those games include neither Flash nor Jaedong.
Just because it's a the Ro8 or Ro4, in a set that doesn't have Flash or Jaedong, doesn't mean we won't see great games out of it. And even if the underdog doesn't make it to the finals, it's still interesting to follow them along their path and see how far they'll go.
And then there's proleague, which is just amazing. Such a constant stream of quality matches . . . I really hope that negotiations don't kill proleague; I can't wait for it to start back up.
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Its sort of like Jaedong and Flash have a monopoly over all the finals. Its very rather bland. I can no longer feel any hype for their finals confrontations because they always have very boring games (with the exception of the Power Outage game and the game on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile). That said I want a Stork vs Free finals. :D
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everyone should be cheering for dinotoss tonight.
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I think that- assuming the starleagues continue in their present form- it will be less than a year before jaedong and flash no longer dominate the way they do right now.
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Interesting point of view
On September 01 2010 10:16 zerious wrote:
everyone should be cheering for dinotoss tonight.
Agreeded, too bad I have classes tomorrow 
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On September 01 2010 10:07 QuothTheRaven wrote:
Individual leagues aren't just about that single Bo5 at the end of the league. You have the whole buildup all the way to the end to watch, and most of those games include neither Flash nor Jaedong.
Just because it's a the Ro8 or Ro4, in a set that doesn't have Flash or Jaedong, doesn't mean we won't see great games out of it. And even if the underdog doesn't make it to the finals, it's still interesting to follow them along their path and see how far they'll go.
And then there's proleague, which is just amazing. Such a constant stream of quality matches . . . I really hope that negotiations don't kill proleague; I can't wait for it to start back up.
True that, proleagues are so awesome because this is what players practice for about 90% of the time. And my team KT Rolsta's on fire
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10387 Posts
Games are just getting better and better, god I felt starved during this last week or so with almost no games -__-;; I'm so glad today is OSL, and I can't wait for PL to start!!
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On September 01 2010 10:07 QuothTheRaven wrote:
Individual leagues aren't just about that single Bo5 at the end of the league. You have the whole buildup all the way to the end to watch, and most of those games include neither Flash nor Jaedong.
Just because it's a the Ro8 or Ro4, in a set that doesn't have Flash or Jaedong, doesn't mean we won't see great games out of it. And even if the underdog doesn't make it to the finals, it's still interesting to follow them along their path and see how far they'll go.
This. My favorite time to watch the leagues is during MSL Ro32/MST/OSL Offlines. Very fun to root for those PL players who seem to always let us down in SLs. Violet, ForGG, Stats...
So maybe you just need to follow a bit more than all the stuff Ro8 and later?
I agree that some of the excitement is subdued though. I think it has to do with MSL's seed system, splitting up Bo5's... etc. Like, why are they splitting up Bo5s? Savior v Firebathero would have been so much less epic if the first game was split off from the other 4...
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Yup Yup.  Stork to break the status quo tonight. SONG BYUNG GOO.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 10:00 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:53 Tazza wrote:On September 01 2010 09:45 Crunchums wrote:
Their rivalry is definitely epic, but the games they play usually aren't and recently it's been pretty one sided.
I know rivalries have come and gone before - what I'm saying is I don't think Flash and Jaedong are going anywhere. Time will tell if I'm right or not. How is it one sided? Its only 2-1 in the finals and Jaedong won more before Flash went on his domination campaign. I would call it about 50-50 right now, with a slight edge to Flash. And the first 2 finals might not have been epic, but the last one was awesome Jaedong did win more before Flash turned up the heat, hence the word "recently". I don't think you can count NATE as a straight up victory for Jaedong (imo he clearly won the power outage game though). Hana Daetoo was a boring rape. WCG was entertaining but not meaningful. Bigfile might have gone to 5 games but only 1 of them was actually good. Here's hoping OSL reverses both of those trends
Yeah but both Jaedong and Flash could be dethroned any minute now,
no one expected any of the bonjwas to eventually drop out during their prime... (not calling either Bonjwas btw)
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On September 01 2010 15:08 thedeadhaji wrote:honestly Korean BW finally has its mojo back with a true rivalry. It's what makes sports exciting to watch. Federer - Nadal Sampras - Agassi Yankees - Red Sox Giants - Dodgers Nicklaus - Palmer Lakers - Celtics 
I enjoyed 2009 more, you could never tell what players were going to win at a certain stage, and Flash and Jaedong are way too polite in interviews for it to feel like a true rivalry, plus they pretty much never cheese each other.
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Jaedong needs to find a way to win against 14cc on a terran favored map vs. the best turtler ever...and then it will be exciting again.
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Um, I still enjoy the current Jaedong/Flash games. I love cringing when Jaedong's third is under pressure and a swarm comes out of nowhere to save the day or going why are you losing so many mutas... gaaaahh or whhhyy still more ultras vs mech zzz. Finding and feeling these tense moments as a fan are freakin' amazing, true gems.
I definitely do not like the idea of BW dying for "ESPORTS". I don't think you can use ESPORTS here. It seems like you're equating ESPORTS to SC2, and I'm meeeh about that. I guess you can argue if SC2 gets big and international, "ESPORTS" will (obviously) grow and more games will encompass it. But until then, BW dying for SC2 is silly. Finishing at (arguably) BW's peak is silly.
Maybe I'm just overly biased that SC2 is just not entertaining for me. Yea the game is young, and "wow" moments may eventually arise. But for a game to be entertaining when the two sides base trade or one zeal and ling are left says something...
The day I cringe for Idra when he barely saves his third or something... hmmm
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On September 01 2010 15:20 ReketSomething wrote:
Jaedong needs to find a way to win against 14cc on a terran favored map vs. the best turtler ever...and then it will be exciting again.
Mmmm... Jaedong fanboy tears, so tasty mmm
Seriously tho, Flash has been playing pretty agressive, if not the most aggressively out of all the Terrans lately
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My biggest worry is that the barrier of entry is too high. The A-teamers are still very, very good - actually better than ever. So not only has a new player to accept that it will take 1 or 2 years to go from practice partner to playing TV games, he also knows the scene might not be there by the time he's good enough to compete for the big prizes. I just don't think many will accept this much risk.
The result might be that we're left with 20-30 very good players (the best and most talented of the current batch) and virtually no new faces. When those players start to decline with age the game will fall with them, even if it does survive Blizzard's demands and the competition from SC2.
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On September 01 2010 16:16 hypercube wrote:
My biggest worry is that the barrier of entry is too high. The A-teamers are still very, very good - actually better than ever. So not only has a new player to accept that it will take 1 or 2 years to go from practice partner to playing TV games, he also knows the scene might not be there by the time he's good enough to compete for the big prizes. I just don't think many will accept this much risk.
The result might be that we're left with 20-30 very good players (the best and most talented of the current batch) and virtually no new faces. When those players start to decline with age the game will fall with them, even if it does survive Blizzard's demands and the competition from SC2.
When this happens, the entry bar lowers, and new players can come in and take their places.
And besides, what you've said can count for nearly every sport. New faces have to wait a few years to start playing in big, televised matches. And there are only a few good players/teams who can routinely make it into the final stages of tournaments and win the big money. But there's no shortage of newcomers to these sports.
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On September 01 2010 16:39 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:16 hypercube wrote:
My biggest worry is that the barrier of entry is too high. The A-teamers are still very, very good - actually better than ever. So not only has a new player to accept that it will take 1 or 2 years to go from practice partner to playing TV games, he also knows the scene might not be there by the time he's good enough to compete for the big prizes. I just don't think many will accept this much risk.
The result might be that we're left with 20-30 very good players (the best and most talented of the current batch) and virtually no new faces. When those players start to decline with age the game will fall with them, even if it does survive Blizzard's demands and the competition from SC2.
When this happens, the entry bar lowers, and new players can come in and take their places.
Maybe, but until then the whole scene will be stale with few new faces.
And besides, what you've said can count for nearly every sport. New faces have to wait a few years to start playing in big, televised matches. And there are only a few good players/teams who can routinely make it into the final stages of tournaments and win the big money. But there's no shortage of newcomers to these sports.
The difference is that in almost every other sport newcomers know for sure that the sport will still be there when they get there.
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I don't believe for a moment that Flash and Jaedong are going to just continue to dominate for a long time. If you haven't noticed, both of them just barely won a bo5 against Fantasy and Light respectively. There is still lots of room for competition and I expect that in a few months (if BW is still alive by then - another fuck you to Activision) we won't be having Flash vs JD finals.
Fantasy, free, Kal, Stork, Effort and Light are all worthy contenders.
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On September 01 2010 16:16 hypercube wrote:
My biggest worry is that the barrier of entry is too high. The A-teamers are still very, very good - actually better than ever. So not only has a new player to accept that it will take 1 or 2 years to go from practice partner to playing TV games, he also knows the scene might not be there by the time he's good enough to compete for the big prizes. I just don't think many will accept this much risk.
The result might be that we're left with 20-30 very good players (the best and most talented of the current batch) and virtually no new faces. When those players start to decline with age the game will fall with them, even if it does survive Blizzard's demands and the competition from SC2.
The entry level is high for every modern sport with an established system... there always will be legends and it takes time for newer players to "fill the shoes" of the good old players. Do you think there is anyone who can claim to be as successful as Michael Jordan? It's been 12 years since he's played seriously and no one has come close.
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I think that the jd vs. flash rivalry is actually good for broodwar. even if their games often are ridiculously one-sided, they simply are the best players in the world - and a final between them is just the logical consequence of that fact. I prefer seeing two guys on the same level fighting for the win over pure dominance by one player.
I kinda like the federer vs. nadal comparison. flash is like federer, he's got the perfect technique, the perfect gamesense and the greatest talent. jaedong (like nadal) is also extremly talented, but he's also relying on his "fighting spirit". jd and nadal are both players that put up a hell of a fight until they give up and accept their loss.
even though it might be a bit boring, if the same players are in the finales every time, I think it's good for broodwar as a sport, because it shows, that only the best players are able to win something.
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i like watching flash vs jaedong because it's as close to a perfect starcraft game as there can be.
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I'm pretty sure it's all the raging Flash and Jaedong fanboys that make it seem like BW is dead. Literally at least 70% of TL population in LR threads is rooting for one of those two, no wonder it seems like nobody else is close to their level and the results of games are too predictable.
You did say "Oh I'm not including chokes, everybody has those, but they still play at a way higher level than anyone else". That's the thing - to the fanboys, any game Flash or Jaedong loses is because they choked. I mean, what else could it possibly be?
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I'm philosophical about it. BW is still great entertainment (though I agree recently it has been a bit predictable with the Leessangrok domination), but all good things come to an end. Maybe it will run it's course and it's demise will help SC2 to become a great scene. Actiblizzard should just let it peter out naturally though rather than trying to force it out of existence or they will create a lot of resentment.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Federer = Flash
Nadal = Jaedong
Djokovic = EffOrt
Roddick = Stork
Murray = fantasy
And tennis is still interesting, so....
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Or you could just concentrate on the game itself, and not just on the players.
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Agreed with so many of the sentiments expressed so far (thedeadhaji put it nicely ). But no one has addressed this yet:
There's still some room for upsets (see: Effort) but it just feels different. Winning an individual title used to be like fuck yeah, this player made it to the top of the heap, he climbed the mountain and ripped victory from its peak... now it's like how did Flash and Jaedong let this player win?
Personally I never felt like Luxury had made it to the top when he won. It was a surprising finals (Luxury v Jangbi) and while I enjoyed the games, I remember feeling like it should have been Bisu/Flash/Jaedong. I've always loved Jangbi but even had he won I wouldn't have felt like he was the new strongest Protoss, just as I never felt that Luxury surpassed (even for a time) JD with his victory.
I wasn't around when ForGG made his run to the top but from what people have said, although he was respected and seen to be a power, I get the sense that he was thought no more highly of than Effort or Calm (both single title holders) are today.
I guess my point is that any of these very top players can win a title, but it's always remarkable when they do, because they've had to beat better players to get there or be lucky and have those players knocked out in upsets earlier in the tournaments. And even with this happening from time to time, it just adds to the scenes excitement.
Semi-final OSL spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Just as it felt like we were about to see Stork beat JD today. For several moments in various of the games I thought we might see a repeat Stork Flash epic finals!
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I get the sense that he was thought no more highly of than Effort or Calm (both single title holders) are today.
Effort is far more respected than Calm. Effort is streaky but on a good day he can play at Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork's level. Calm beat Jaedong in a Bo5 once but hasn't looked the same since.
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EPT
