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I couldn't find a thread where much gameplay discussion was going on about this tournament but I just watched all the replays and I can't say much of it impressed me.
I strongly felt that every terran was a one trick pony. Every game they would do the same thing over and over. You can barely distinguish all the ZvT games because they all played out with the terran going reapers with speed upgrade against a zerg that went speedlings with expo. After that, hellions showed up and then 10 minutes of harass until the final fight.
I'm not saying the zergs were impressive either with their 14 gas 14 pool openers game after game only to get owned by the same terran builds over and over. I had to watch through 3 series before roaches started being made (surprise, the Zerg won those games).
The only moment where I was impressed in that tournament was when white-ra defended his expo on LT from cliff harass. He had the units and the foresight to build a dropship to get sight and to drop a couple units on the cliff to clean up.
Otherwise, every ZvT was painful to watch. Tarson mastered the art of building 6 raxes and spamming units and yet his opponents still couldn't put 2 and 2 together (see the series where he gets ghosts and owns the zerg's mutas game after game and the zerg never learns). Most of the games had terran opening 1-1-1 against zerg. Why didn't the zerg ever do an early roach push?
I'm obviously not at their level but when I watch the top players in SC1 or WC3, they are on top of things. They aren't doing one build over and over and they adapt all throughout the game. You can clearly tell you're watching a pro. But in SC2, I feel like I'm observing random diamond players. I understand how some of these guys got popular during early beta when there weren't many players but come on... That was then. Their "creative" playstyles have all but disappeared and all that is left is "standard" play.
Maybe I'm just a hater. But this hater thinks these top players aren't all that good.
/flamesuit on.
 
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The games been out for less than a month, and there are still some small balancing issues that are going to be addressed. Give it time to grow, BW wasn't the way it was one day one, nowhere near. It'll be better in the future, trust me. :3
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They aren't koreans with 400 APM....
And the poster above me is right, Watch BW games from 2000 and the play is laughable, probably D+ level.
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The people that are the "top" sc2 players present at IEM were the "top" players in the foreign BW scene i.e. IdrA MorroW White-Ra DIMAGA Tarson
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the zergs should have been doing early roach pushes.
yeah, you aren't on their level.
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On August 23 2010 04:43 Megalisk wrote:
They aren't koreans with 400 APM....
And the poster above me is right, Watch BW games from 2000 and the play is laughable, probably D+ level.
Worse than D+ level really.
to op: the builds being used are "standard" right now. Zerg really can't do anything but 14 gas 14 pool or some minor variation of it, since hatch first will guarantee an instant loss.
Terran's do reaper expand builds because it is just ridiculously powerful, they can pressure while expanding, and at the same time force zerg to make units rather than drones.
Everyone is just playing the best build possible at the moment, it just happens to be quite abusive and boring.
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Saying that the zergs are one trick ponies for going 14 gas 14 pool is pretty silly. It's like saying terrans who open 10 supply 12 rax only go for 1 strat as well, you really have to take a couple of more steps of the build order into account.
Not to say I did not somewhat agree with your post though, those game were painfully alike.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 04:39 Vexx wrote:
I couldn't find a thread where much gameplay discussion was going on about this tournament but I just watched all the replays and I can't say much of it impressed me.
I strongly felt that every terran was a one trick pony. Every game they would do the same thing over and over. You can barely distinguish all the ZvT games because they all played out with the terran going reapers with speed upgrade against a zerg that went speedlings with expo. After that, hellions showed up and then 10 minutes of harass until the final fight.
I'm not saying the zergs were impressive either with their 14 gas 14 pool openers game after game only to get owned by the same terran builds over and over. I had to watch through 3 series before roaches started being made (surprise, the Zerg won those games).
The only moment where I was impressed in that tournament was when white-ra defended his expo on LT from cliff harass. He had the units and the foresight to build a dropship to get sight and to drop a couple units on the cliff to clean up.
Otherwise, every ZvT was painful to watch. Tarson mastered the art of building 6 raxes and spamming units and yet his opponents still couldn't put 2 and 2 together (see the series where he gets ghosts and owns the zerg's mutas game after game and the zerg never learns). Most of the games had terran opening 1-1-1 against zerg. Why didn't the zerg ever do an early roach push?
I'm obviously not at their level but when I watch the top players in SC1 or WC3, they are on top of things. They aren't doing one build over and over and they adapt all throughout the game. You can clearly tell you're watching a pro. But in SC2, I feel like I'm observing random diamond players. I understand how some of these guys got popular during early beta when there weren't many players but come on... That was then. Their "creative" playstyles have all but disappeared and all that is left is "standard" play.
Maybe I'm just a hater. But this hater thinks these top players aren't all that good.
/flamesuit on.
Top Korean SC1 players don't use the same builds every game? Maybe you should watch more SC1 games. Next time IdrA won't go 14 gas and get beat in 5 minutes instead of 10.
Comparing it to SC1 is laughable. How long did it take for the Bisu build to work? 8 years? People like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu work on builds for YEARS.
You got one thing right though, you're just a hater. You need to get some perspective.
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It's a little hard to do anything BUT 14 gas 14 pool early speedlings -> roach when 3 rax reaper and 5 rax reaper are so strong right now...
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There was a fair share of reaper openings, but there was numerous bio and mech plays too.(or tech to banshee). It's not too surprising as this is one of the first major tournaments since SC2 was released.
I'm sure they know other builds, but they probably only have a couple that they are confident with and are safe/flexible enough. When there's a lot on the line, you tend to stick with what's working, invent and experiment another time. Now, players will probably be developing new builds, learning from the results of this tournament. I'm sure the strategies will develop with time and more tests/results.
Also, doing lots of different openings doesnt necessarily make player better. More like, is the build he picked appropriate, given map, his scouting info, meta/mind games etc.
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in a <1 month old game this is what you're going to get... there are strats that work REALLY well, and people will abuse them until they're fixed or people find counters... what do you expect?
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You can't expect the level of starcraft 1 in only a month or so, simple as that. Not to mention there's going to be 2 expansions coming, this game is so far from done.
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On August 23 2010 04:43 Megalisk wrote:
They aren't koreans with 400 APM....
And the poster above me is right, Watch BW games from 2000 and the play is laughable, probably D+ level.
I remember watching BW games where map has like 2 expos like faaar away from main lol :D
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On August 23 2010 05:10 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 04:43 Megalisk wrote:
They aren't koreans with 400 APM....
And the poster above me is right, Watch BW games from 2000 and the play is laughable, probably D+ level. I remember watching BW games where map has like 2 expos like faaar away from main lol :D
And players did not expand until their main was mined out lol.
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Maybe I'm just a hater. But this hater thinks these top players aren't all that good.
lol
So... Terrans like MorroW can win the IEM yet at the same time, must be crappy players.
Yeah, you're right. For the first sentence of the quote.
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It has more to do with the current state of strategy/build order in Starcraft 2 than player themselves- I'm sure variation will grow as the time passes.
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I would guess it's partly because the game is still in its infancy and partly because the overall skill cap is lower. So, there isn't as much separating a random diamond player and top players as there is between a Iccup A level BW player and a progamer.
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How can you say the games were boring? these were by far the best high quality games of starcraft i've seen so far, and the most action packed.
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it's a big tournament, players are going to do everything they can to win at that means abusing the strongest builds to their max. zergs know terrans are going to do mass reaper early game and the speedling build is the only way you can hope to survive that. why would you want them to early roach push lol, they already have the tech labs up for reapers anyway, one bunker and 2 marauders and your "early roach push" is dead
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On August 23 2010 05:10 Megalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:10 AyJay wrote:On August 23 2010 04:43 Megalisk wrote:
They aren't koreans with 400 APM....
And the poster above me is right, Watch BW games from 2000 and the play is laughable, probably D+ level. I remember watching BW games where map has like 2 expos like faaar away from main lol :D And players did not expand until their main was mined out lol.
Maybe on a map that forced them to do it.
Oldschool BW is unrefined but full of creative, solid play. People had no idea how far they could push it, so the level of play that we have achieved today obviously took a long time to happen, because the game is deep. And most of the old maps weren't designed to have huge sprawling macro games played on them, but today that is the only type of map people play on. As you can see if you actually watch old games, the game was still balanced and exciting to watch.
SC2 is the opposite. They have designed a game solely around large, eco-oriented maps. Well what do you think is going to happen? I beat if there were any default Blizz maps brought back, you know the ones, with one base wide out in the open and no natural for miles. I bet the game would start to show it's cracks. And I can feel that every time I play or watch this game. It's just boring. Only a few strats seem to work (unless you are terran), so it just limits your creativity.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2010 05:33 GunSlinger wrote:
SC2 is the opposite. They have designed a game solely around large, eco-oriented maps. Well what do you think is going to happen? I beat if there were any default Blizz maps brought back, you know the ones, with one base wide out in the open and no natural for miles. I bet the game would start to show it's cracks. And I can feel that every time I play or watch this game. It's just boring. Only a few strats seem to work (unless you are terran), so it just limits your creativity.
What?
Most of the maps in the pool are small and have a lot of tight narrow spaces. That's one of the major complaints about the current map pool. Calling these maps large and eco-oriented is a joke.
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10387 Posts
Hey, don't diss Oldschool BW, that shit was damn impressive back in its day, and even today in its own way.
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Hey if they are unimpressive maybe you can win the next one right?
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Not going fast speedlings in ZvT is asking to die.
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some zerg shud step ahead and start being creative, they are trying to much to win the game on the lategame, look at JD, mid-game centred strategies...
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Lol no. The 5 roaches can't do anything besides force terran to either build a bunker. Reapers will demolish the roaches off creep, not to mention that 3 tech raxes will eventually be up. Oh and Terran can expand safely during this too.
Right now zerg just has to get early speedings to defend first aggression, power drones for maybe one or two cycles while teching up to lair, then use speedling/muta for the midgame to contain T.
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Are you the Vexx of WoW fame?
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On August 23 2010 06:07 superbabosheki wrote:Lol no. The 5 roaches can't do anything besides force terran to either build a bunker. Reapers will demolish the roaches off creep, not to mention that 3 tech raxes will eventually be up. Oh and Terran can expand safely during this too. Right now zerg just has to get early speedings to defend first aggression, power drones for maybe one or two cycles while teching up to lair, then use speedling/muta for the midgame to contain T.
Yeah you're right. There's just no hope. We should all roll T and watch vikings and tanks jerk each other off for 45 minutes.
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A lot of people are definitely overestimating top level skill in sc2 right now.
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The game is going to be developing for years.
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On August 23 2010 06:07 superbabosheki wrote:Lol no. The 5 roaches can't do anything besides force terran to either build a bunker. Reapers will demolish the roaches off creep, not to mention that 3 tech raxes will eventually be up. Oh and Terran can expand safely during this too. Right now zerg just has to get early speedings to defend first aggression, power drones for maybe one or two cycles while teching up to lair, then use speedling/muta for the midgame to contain T.
You don't have to go muta... You can easily go speedling -> lair -> roach w/ speed and then contain that way and deny expo or safely take third. Depending on what T is doing ofc.
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On August 23 2010 05:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:33 GunSlinger wrote:
SC2 is the opposite. They have designed a game solely around large, eco-oriented maps. Well what do you think is going to happen? I beat if there were any default Blizz maps brought back, you know the ones, with one base wide out in the open and no natural for miles. I bet the game would start to show it's cracks. And I can feel that every time I play or watch this game. It's just boring. Only a few strats seem to work (unless you are terran), so it just limits your creativity. What? Most of the maps in the pool are small and have a lot of tight narrow spaces. That's one of the major complaints about the current map pool. Calling these maps large and eco-oriented is a joke.
And yet they all have some sort of natural and an easy third. Discounting a few unique ones of course. The original Blizz maps made it so hard to expand that the game stayed at one base for a very long time. That is merely the point I am making. Maybe they aren't large, but they are definitely eco-oriented. Damn it, the whole game is eco-oriented. Can't people see that? It's all macro, therefore, not very fun to watch.
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Well, its because bw has been out for a long time and there are lots of builds. But yeah, thats what i felt too. Everyone just did the same builds in a specific matchup
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EPT
