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So I'm back from 5 days in Taiwan, where there were so many sc2 ads everywhere =( I really miss this game ^^
So here is what I picked up in the week that I haven't played sc2, relevant to me:
1) Protoss players like to whine, especially about terran (who can blame them? So do I)
2) Protoss players have figured out how to play against a 4 gate warp-in
So since I'm too tired right now to game, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say right now that PvT is like SC1 TvP and ZvT all in one, and here's why:
Like SC1 ZvT, you need higher tech to deal with stim. Sure, chargelots will work like lurkers to a certain point, but once vessels are out (high numbers of m/m/m), you need a change in gameplan. You need higher tech (think darkswarm, but nope, you will need high templar or carriers or more colossi w/ range if they dont have enough vikings yet)
Like SC1 TvP, you are going to be playing economically behind from the first 2 bases, but you should be able to even out soon afterward.
Especially since you'll be on one base longer than the terran player, you need superb gas management. This means getting sentries when absolutely NECESSARY, and spending all that gas instead on teching to colossi or high templar or my favorite HT/immortal/phoenix mixture <3
So here's my two cents to anyone who is having trouble with PvT:
1) Practice being perfect. It sounds insane, but you NEED perfect forcefields, you NEED perfect spreading to minimize EMP damage, you NEED perfect army positioning/flanking in the mid-late game.
2) Know what to do and when to do it. You have observers so it is very easy to know when you can expand. When, you might ask? When you can defend it with whatever tech you are going toward by the time the terran ball comes at the time your expo finishes. This means you have to think ahead to what the terran can have given their tech/rax count/fac/starport count
TLDR:
Flawless play, like ZvT in sc1.
Use timings that work. Play smart, not blindly, abuse observers.
Even though the balance isn't perfect, PvT has not been explored at a high enough level with flawless play on both sides for it to be analysed thoroughly. The skill cap isn't there yet.
...
BTW I love the Terran's OP freestyle.
That's all! I'll be getting my hands on an SEA sc2 some time soon!
And I've been enjoying some 25 NT pocari sweat so I will be the new flash, yes ^^
 
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As a terran player, I definitely agree with this post. I can't tell you how many games I've won with a mostly marine and marauder army against a mass zealot and stalker army, which causes them to rage at me. High templar are so destructive against MMM play.
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Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
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So rush t3 while they are still on t1-t2, have perfect micro, and catch up on economy despite mules?
Sounds like what you are saying is "If you win, thats how you win".
Terran is imba, accept it, live it, know it.
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Hi Antimage.
Kinda sorta agree. I've done damage with mass sentries though. So many ff's its hard not to get one of 'em right!
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Oh, wow. It sure didn't take long for this to become another "Terran OP!" thread.
In BW, protoss was easiest to learn, but at the top tier, playing protoss meant having the absolute lowest margin of error. And no one complained about that. And yes, perfect play will beat a person without perfect play. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement.
That, and force fields. 80% of toss that I've seen in Diamond don't even bother to make a single sentry, as if mass stalker will hard counter marauders. And then, they'll ragequit about how ridiculous marauders are because they lost to a 2 rax marauder opening.
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i dont know but the fact that Protoss got our hand on Air tech b4 tier 3 actually changed a lot in PvX.
We have another option than DTs or reaver aka. colossi and it is a STRONG option. My best match up currently is PvT and i think the key is your early scout and how much information you dig out from it.
Another thing that i believe is a mistake for most protoss players are the early 2nd gas (17 or 18 supply right after cyber). The fact that any army composition Terran throw to you early game can be solved using an army of 2-5 stalker-zealot ratio which is mineral heavy. Nexus and gates and pylons also requires lots of mineral instead of gas so i believe delaying 2nd gas is the direct counter to the mule mechanic that T got their hand early on. Sentries is something you dont need that early until your army head counts reaching 10 unless you think a FF can protect you which i believe just help T to contain you easier.
Late game T are really strong with the drop tech and HT is the only answer for that but between when he got dropship and you have amulet, you mostly what to put constant pressure so he wont harass you =.=... I want bilzz to get rid of the auto repair shit since thor timing push or a planetary fortress is just brutal to deal with mid game :<
You didnt mention PvP 4 gates all-in btw 
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welcome back and upload some replays for us :D
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I'm really starting to love Stargate (Phoenix) openers as Protoss. They give you the ability to scout, harass and force static defense or keep the enemy army at home. You know whats coming, and can expand and tech appropriately.
Then when the push comes, you can use them to lift key units. Combined with forcefield, you can do some really awsome things to shut a Terran advance down.
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On August 23 2010 02:13 NB wrote:i dont know but the fact that Protoss got our hand on Air tech b4 tier 3 actually changed a lot in PvX. We have another option than DTs or reaver aka. colossi and it is a STRONG option. My best match up currently is PvT and i think the key is your early scout and how much information you dig out from it. Another thing that i believe is a mistake for most protoss players are the early 2nd gas (17 or 18 supply right after cyber). The fact that any army composition Terran throw to you early game can be solved using an army of 2-5 stalker-zealot ratio which is mineral heavy. Nexus and gates and pylons also requires lots of mineral instead of gas so i believe delaying 2nd gas is the direct counter to the mule mechanic that T got their hand early on. Sentries is something you dont need that early until your army head counts reaching 10 unless you think a FF can protect you which i believe just help T to contain you easier. Late game T are really strong with the drop tech and HT is the only answer for that but between when he got dropship and you have amulet, you mostly what to put constant pressure so he wont harass you =.=... I want bilzz to get rid of the auto repair shit since thor timing push or a planetary fortress is just brutal to deal with mid game :< You didnt mention PvP 4 gates all-in btw
I don't think getting rid of auto repair will solve any problems you may have with Thor timing pushes or mid game Planetary Fortress busts lol (since they will be microing during the Thor timing push and in the case of the PF, the will just take all their scvs and repair it normally assuming a decent reaction time)
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So you mention forcefields, and thats one thing I've been having trouble with in PvT that I don't really understand:
Forcefields are obvious in chokes/ramps - but what about when you're trying to defend an area that isn't something you can cut off with 1-2 FFs? It takes a lot of forcefields to split an army up to the point that your zealots wont get hit by everything, and you need to split off a really small number of marauders if you want to survive with mostly stalkers and minimal losses.
tl;dr: how do I use forcefields when I'm not defending a ramp?
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On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
![[image loading]](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4242/96425607.png)
Sometimes a matchup's like that. I'm not a BW expert but the ZvT comparison seems apt; take out Jaedong (or IdrA lol) and ZvT results are pretty lopsided.
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On August 23 2010 02:33 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly. Sometimes a matchup's like that. I'm not a BW expert but the ZvT comparison seems apt; take out Jaedong (or IdrA lol) and ZvT results are pretty lopsided.
In BW I wouldn't say its that lopsided (at most 55/45 and depending on the map).
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what ? you are in hk? i thought you played on the american servers though S:
anyways.DONT BUY A SEA ACCOUNT the entire server is going to move to the us server in a month so dont waste your money unless your immediate friends will only play on SEA server. SEA accounts will get access to north america very soon.
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Wierd, I thought sentry zel worked out pretty effectively against most t1 terran armies. As long as you prevent them from kiting, the zealots seem to do more than an adequate amount of damage.
Ofc this leaves you vulnerable to those quick banshees, but you can scout and adjust composition accordingly.
I've actually been trying to figure out a build to go fast chargelots. It's something like
1gate -> cyber ->2nd gate -> Citadel -> 3rd gate + charge coming online -> Hallucination someitme shortly afterwards.
I figure hallucination solves the scouting and cliff problem nicely and if I'm already going for a mass of zel/sentry then it extends the use of my sentries. Still need to play a lot more games though.
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Well I might be wrong but in pro ZvT both players have very little space to make mistakes, not just one of the races. It seems about 50% of my ladder games are against Terran and honestly I just don't know what to do. I play around 550 diamond atm, could probably hit 600-700 but I barely play enough to burn off my bonus points. Nothing impressive but here are my issues.
Basically, I scout a lot but they wall off so they can easily hide buildings. I make an obs to scout it but let's say:
1) I see T infantry and he's going ghosts, I don't really know what I need - I guess largely zealot sentries and spread my army so the whole thing doesn't get EMP'd. Then I have to micro my army and especially my immortals because they may not have shields anymore and I can't have them attacking marines and I need to drop very good force fields because chances are half my sentries don't have their energy... Meanwhile it seems to me like terran infantry attacks exactly what you want it to when a-moving. Maybe sniping off the immortals without shield? That's basically it. I need to play my cards extremely well to beat an army that's barely microed. Also I had to make a robotics facility and the immortals aren't cost effective but since I have the building and fewer gateways I kind of need to spend my money somehow.
2) I see 1/1/1 or something like that - the guy makes a banshee so I have to prepare - I can lose my obs, so I have to make more , I make more stalkers than I usually would... There's a chance the guy will only make 1 banshee - I may have 5-6 stalkers so he moves out to my front with his heavy marauder army, a few tanks and marines and my stalkers are useless because when you have a starport with a tech lab and you know your opponent needs stalkers, why not make a raven and turn those stalkers useless for a while. So I need to play my cards extremely well throughout the game or my army will be at a severe disadvantage.
3) Heavy marine/tanks timing push. Especially on small maps, even when I scout it early, it's really hard for me to gauge how many production structures I need because if I go and start trying to make templars or colossi and his timing push happens before they come out, I know I'll be having a hard time.
No matter what they do, I'm always afraid because T is so flexible. Usually I'm pretty good at gauging how much stuff someone can have, but Terran seems to catch me off guard.
I'm just saying I have a hard time playing against Terran personally.
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Nice post Antimage; here's a quick question for you on the topic of PvT: How do you feel about templar vs ghost play? I try to feedback, I try to spread, but all they really need is 2-3 ghosts to be able to EMP to their heart's content. I haven't really had much success in that regard. Any tips?
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also late game carriers are amazing
reminiscent of bw PvT 
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On August 23 2010 03:24 Cofo wrote:
Nice post Antimage; here's a quick question for you on the topic of PvT: How do you feel about templar vs ghost play? I try to feedback, I try to spread, but all they really need is 2-3 ghosts to be able to EMP to their heart's content. I haven't really had much success in that regard. Any tips?
personally I think there's two solutions to this.
1) keep some templars in a warp prism so they don't get hit by the EMP
2) if your high templars are EMP'd, morph them into archons and just warp in new high templars at a nearby pylon or warp prism with the +25 energy
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I think the comparison is terrible. In ZvT the Zerg has these things called mutalisks that can keep the Terran honest- it is entirely possible for the Terran to screw their micro/timings up early and die or put themselves at a severe disadvantage. This rarely happens in SC2 PvT, at least against decent opponents. Furthermore, they had this little guy called the lurker- 2 of those could annihilate an entire Terran army if they weren't careful, or at the very least delay them for an eternity (sentry casting forcefield on a ramp does not exactly count). Protoss has nothing comparable to either of those units. There's so many fewer opportunities for the Terran to completely botch their micro and get punished for it.
Edit: In fact, I kind of think you have it backwards- perfect play rewards Terran far more than it rewards Zerg on the whole, especially early on. Which is why T>Z for the most part. It's only later when dark swarm and plague can swing the tide that that changes.
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Victor you just need to make voidrays from 3 proxied stargates and win.
TvP sucks.
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I don't even use Void Rays anymore. Terrans mostly 1/1/1 these days.
And like, vikings out range Voids. Pretty badly. With slight micro you can kill many Void Rays with one Viking. That and they can get out of the Void Ray's ray once in it, since the Viking moves faster than the Void Ray without the upgrade in Fleet Beacon.
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On August 23 2010 02:47 T0fuuu wrote:
what ? you are in hk? i thought you played on the american servers though S:
anyways.DONT BUY A SEA ACCOUNT the entire server is going to move to the us server in a month so dont waste your money unless your immediate friends will only play on SEA server. SEA accounts will get access to north america very soon.
Actually do buy a sea account, that way you get 2 free accounts  SEA for practice, and US for serious gaming. There will still be people on SEA. Besides, my mates can play my SEA account?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
This is what bothers me about SC2 discussion these days.
Someone always is intent on turning an extremely helpful and well-thought-out thread that is deliberately NOT a balance discussion into a balance discussion.
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On August 23 2010 04:27 SCC-Faust wrote:
I don't even use Void Rays anymore. Terrans mostly 1/1/1 these days.
And like, vikings out range Voids. Pretty badly. With slight micro you can kill many Void Rays with one Viking. That and they can get out of the Void Ray's ray once in it, since the Viking moves faster than the Void Ray without the upgrade in Fleet Beacon.
who said T going 1/1/1 these days? all of them abusing medivac drop bio with stim sniping nexus
also getting 1 VR to force T getting 2 viking instead of to medivac is worthed. you always can switch back to chrono gates.
the fact that Protoss need to play perfect to beat a normal Terran is so common. The tanks AI improved and marauder stim make T almost easy mode. Try to check every Terran players on the wolf cup today, even silver(once beat idra) has 3 scvs queue up at around 50 foods early on and you call it macro?
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PvT is kind of like no other matchup. In Brood War superior mechanics, micro, and everything else actually matter and *gasp you can outplay the other player. In Starcraft 2 a 60 apm 12 year old can execute an optimally and perfectly timed 3 rax / 4 rax / etc attack with perfect precision.
For the protoss, perfect micro, macro and decision making are irrelevant, because you can still lose playing perfect. It's basically a balancing of act between being able to taking your natural (if you can even take it) and having the exact army composition necessary to stop their attack move. If you literally are too heavy on stalkers, you lose no matter how you micro or what you do. If you have 1 immortal too many, you lose.
Being able to assess what units you need exactly, when you can push and defend or take your expansion is an impossible mathematical equation that takes hundreds of hours of play, and is a testament to how good players like HuK, White-Ra and other top Protosses are. All that effort to just be able to be on par with mediocre Terrans is quite a testament to their dedication. For the rest of us with jobs and other things occupying our time, we are completely unable to get anywhere near the experience required to be able to figure out these timings and assess decisions on the fly. We are left in the gutter with TvZ dwarfing the reality of our predicament.
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On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
So? It takes more skill to PvT at the same level of the terran player. SC1 was balanced like that too, and you didn't see anyone complain that much about it.
It will take longer to develop the same gamesense and decision making skills as top protoss players, but I suggest that until you make it to the very top where you really feel the imbalance where you absolutely CANNOT do anything to match the terran player, don't complain about imba.
Keep improving, keep playing, and if terran does get a nerf (which I think they will mainly b/c of TvZ), PvT will be even easier, more fun and more forgiving.
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I really second that flanking part. Flanking is absolutely AMAZING in PvT just like it was in BW. For some reason I think so many Protoss devolved into 1a style without trying to flank even though it was ingrained into the Protoss players in BW. MMM is much more mobile, but getting zealots mixed in those marauders is absolutely devastating for the terran player because his micro is going to be harder and he's going to get hit much more.
I'm not quite sure how to use force fields in PvT yet so I usually don't use them in battles. Whenever I try to forcefield I just end up force fielding my zealots off T_T
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EPT
... let him buy it....
