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So I'm back from 5 days in Taiwan, where there were so many sc2 ads everywhere =( I really miss this game ^^
So here is what I picked up in the week that I haven't played sc2, relevant to me:
1) Protoss players like to whine, especially about terran (who can blame them? So do I)
2) Protoss players have figured out how to play against a 4 gate warp-in
So since I'm too tired right now to game, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say right now that PvT is like SC1 TvP and ZvT all in one, and here's why:
Like SC1 ZvT, you need higher tech to deal with stim. Sure, chargelots will work like lurkers to a certain point, but once vessels are out (high numbers of m/m/m), you need a change in gameplan. You need higher tech (think darkswarm, but nope, you will need high templar or carriers or more colossi w/ range if they dont have enough vikings yet)
Like SC1 TvP, you are going to be playing economically behind from the first 2 bases, but you should be able to even out soon afterward.
Especially since you'll be on one base longer than the terran player, you need superb gas management. This means getting sentries when absolutely NECESSARY, and spending all that gas instead on teching to colossi or high templar or my favorite HT/immortal/phoenix mixture <3
So here's my two cents to anyone who is having trouble with PvT:
1) Practice being perfect. It sounds insane, but you NEED perfect forcefields, you NEED perfect spreading to minimize EMP damage, you NEED perfect army positioning/flanking in the mid-late game.
2) Know what to do and when to do it. You have observers so it is very easy to know when you can expand. When, you might ask? When you can defend it with whatever tech you are going toward by the time the terran ball comes at the time your expo finishes. This means you have to think ahead to what the terran can have given their tech/rax count/fac/starport count
TLDR:
Flawless play, like ZvT in sc1.
Use timings that work. Play smart, not blindly, abuse observers.
Even though the balance isn't perfect, PvT has not been explored at a high enough level with flawless play on both sides for it to be analysed thoroughly. The skill cap isn't there yet.
...
BTW I love the Terran's OP freestyle.
That's all! I'll be getting my hands on an SEA sc2 some time soon!
And I've been enjoying some 25 NT pocari sweat so I will be the new flash, yes ^^
 
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As a terran player, I definitely agree with this post. I can't tell you how many games I've won with a mostly marine and marauder army against a mass zealot and stalker army, which causes them to rage at me. High templar are so destructive against MMM play.
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Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
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So rush t3 while they are still on t1-t2, have perfect micro, and catch up on economy despite mules?
Sounds like what you are saying is "If you win, thats how you win".
Terran is imba, accept it, live it, know it.
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Hi Antimage.
Kinda sorta agree. I've done damage with mass sentries though. So many ff's its hard not to get one of 'em right!
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Oh, wow. It sure didn't take long for this to become another "Terran OP!" thread.
In BW, protoss was easiest to learn, but at the top tier, playing protoss meant having the absolute lowest margin of error. And no one complained about that. And yes, perfect play will beat a person without perfect play. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement.
That, and force fields. 80% of toss that I've seen in Diamond don't even bother to make a single sentry, as if mass stalker will hard counter marauders. And then, they'll ragequit about how ridiculous marauders are because they lost to a 2 rax marauder opening.
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i dont know but the fact that Protoss got our hand on Air tech b4 tier 3 actually changed a lot in PvX.
We have another option than DTs or reaver aka. colossi and it is a STRONG option. My best match up currently is PvT and i think the key is your early scout and how much information you dig out from it.
Another thing that i believe is a mistake for most protoss players are the early 2nd gas (17 or 18 supply right after cyber). The fact that any army composition Terran throw to you early game can be solved using an army of 2-5 stalker-zealot ratio which is mineral heavy. Nexus and gates and pylons also requires lots of mineral instead of gas so i believe delaying 2nd gas is the direct counter to the mule mechanic that T got their hand early on. Sentries is something you dont need that early until your army head counts reaching 10 unless you think a FF can protect you which i believe just help T to contain you easier.
Late game T are really strong with the drop tech and HT is the only answer for that but between when he got dropship and you have amulet, you mostly what to put constant pressure so he wont harass you =.=... I want bilzz to get rid of the auto repair shit since thor timing push or a planetary fortress is just brutal to deal with mid game :<
You didnt mention PvP 4 gates all-in btw 
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welcome back and upload some replays for us :D
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I'm really starting to love Stargate (Phoenix) openers as Protoss. They give you the ability to scout, harass and force static defense or keep the enemy army at home. You know whats coming, and can expand and tech appropriately.
Then when the push comes, you can use them to lift key units. Combined with forcefield, you can do some really awsome things to shut a Terran advance down.
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On August 23 2010 02:13 NB wrote:i dont know but the fact that Protoss got our hand on Air tech b4 tier 3 actually changed a lot in PvX. We have another option than DTs or reaver aka. colossi and it is a STRONG option. My best match up currently is PvT and i think the key is your early scout and how much information you dig out from it. Another thing that i believe is a mistake for most protoss players are the early 2nd gas (17 or 18 supply right after cyber). The fact that any army composition Terran throw to you early game can be solved using an army of 2-5 stalker-zealot ratio which is mineral heavy. Nexus and gates and pylons also requires lots of mineral instead of gas so i believe delaying 2nd gas is the direct counter to the mule mechanic that T got their hand early on. Sentries is something you dont need that early until your army head counts reaching 10 unless you think a FF can protect you which i believe just help T to contain you easier. Late game T are really strong with the drop tech and HT is the only answer for that but between when he got dropship and you have amulet, you mostly what to put constant pressure so he wont harass you =.=... I want bilzz to get rid of the auto repair shit since thor timing push or a planetary fortress is just brutal to deal with mid game :< You didnt mention PvP 4 gates all-in btw
I don't think getting rid of auto repair will solve any problems you may have with Thor timing pushes or mid game Planetary Fortress busts lol (since they will be microing during the Thor timing push and in the case of the PF, the will just take all their scvs and repair it normally assuming a decent reaction time)
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So you mention forcefields, and thats one thing I've been having trouble with in PvT that I don't really understand:
Forcefields are obvious in chokes/ramps - but what about when you're trying to defend an area that isn't something you can cut off with 1-2 FFs? It takes a lot of forcefields to split an army up to the point that your zealots wont get hit by everything, and you need to split off a really small number of marauders if you want to survive with mostly stalkers and minimal losses.
tl;dr: how do I use forcefields when I'm not defending a ramp?
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On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly.
![[image loading]](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4242/96425607.png)
Sometimes a matchup's like that. I'm not a BW expert but the ZvT comparison seems apt; take out Jaedong (or IdrA lol) and ZvT results are pretty lopsided.
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On August 23 2010 02:33 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 02:00 Djzapz wrote:
Basically, what you're saying is a protoss needs to play 'perfectly' to beat a terran who doesn't.
My thoughts exactly. Sometimes a matchup's like that. I'm not a BW expert but the ZvT comparison seems apt; take out Jaedong (or IdrA lol) and ZvT results are pretty lopsided.
In BW I wouldn't say its that lopsided (at most 55/45 and depending on the map).
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what ? you are in hk? i thought you played on the american servers though S:
anyways.DONT BUY A SEA ACCOUNT the entire server is going to move to the us server in a month so dont waste your money unless your immediate friends will only play on SEA server. SEA accounts will get access to north america very soon.
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Wierd, I thought sentry zel worked out pretty effectively against most t1 terran armies. As long as you prevent them from kiting, the zealots seem to do more than an adequate amount of damage.
Ofc this leaves you vulnerable to those quick banshees, but you can scout and adjust composition accordingly.
I've actually been trying to figure out a build to go fast chargelots. It's something like
1gate -> cyber ->2nd gate -> Citadel -> 3rd gate + charge coming online -> Hallucination someitme shortly afterwards.
I figure hallucination solves the scouting and cliff problem nicely and if I'm already going for a mass of zel/sentry then it extends the use of my sentries. Still need to play a lot more games though.
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Well I might be wrong but in pro ZvT both players have very little space to make mistakes, not just one of the races. It seems about 50% of my ladder games are against Terran and honestly I just don't know what to do. I play around 550 diamond atm, could probably hit 600-700 but I barely play enough to burn off my bonus points. Nothing impressive but here are my issues.
Basically, I scout a lot but they wall off so they can easily hide buildings. I make an obs to scout it but let's say:
1) I see T infantry and he's going ghosts, I don't really know what I need - I guess largely zealot sentries and spread my army so the whole thing doesn't get EMP'd. Then I have to micro my army and especially my immortals because they may not have shields anymore and I can't have them attacking marines and I need to drop very good force fields because chances are half my sentries don't have their energy... Meanwhile it seems to me like terran infantry attacks exactly what you want it to when a-moving. Maybe sniping off the immortals without shield? That's basically it. I need to play my cards extremely well to beat an army that's barely microed. Also I had to make a robotics facility and the immortals aren't cost effective but since I have the building and fewer gateways I kind of need to spend my money somehow.
2) I see 1/1/1 or something like that - the guy makes a banshee so I have to prepare - I can lose my obs, so I have to make more , I make more stalkers than I usually would... There's a chance the guy will only make 1 banshee - I may have 5-6 stalkers so he moves out to my front with his heavy marauder army, a few tanks and marines and my stalkers are useless because when you have a starport with a tech lab and you know your opponent needs stalkers, why not make a raven and turn those stalkers useless for a while. So I need to play my cards extremely well throughout the game or my army will be at a severe disadvantage.
3) Heavy marine/tanks timing push. Especially on small maps, even when I scout it early, it's really hard for me to gauge how many production structures I need because if I go and start trying to make templars or colossi and his timing push happens before they come out, I know I'll be having a hard time.
No matter what they do, I'm always afraid because T is so flexible. Usually I'm pretty good at gauging how much stuff someone can have, but Terran seems to catch me off guard.
I'm just saying I have a hard time playing against Terran personally.
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Nice post Antimage; here's a quick question for you on the topic of PvT: How do you feel about templar vs ghost play? I try to feedback, I try to spread, but all they really need is 2-3 ghosts to be able to EMP to their heart's content. I haven't really had much success in that regard. Any tips?
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also late game carriers are amazing
reminiscent of bw PvT 
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On August 23 2010 03:24 Cofo wrote:
Nice post Antimage; here's a quick question for you on the topic of PvT: How do you feel about templar vs ghost play? I try to feedback, I try to spread, but all they really need is 2-3 ghosts to be able to EMP to their heart's content. I haven't really had much success in that regard. Any tips?
personally I think there's two solutions to this.
1) keep some templars in a warp prism so they don't get hit by the EMP
2) if your high templars are EMP'd, morph them into archons and just warp in new high templars at a nearby pylon or warp prism with the +25 energy
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EPT
... let him buy it....
