Although I only played Brood War for a few months before the release of SC2 and play SC2 as a decent diamond protoss (~600 PSR and rising), I still enjoy watching games of Brood War SOOOO much more. SC2 is just too clean. BW has primitive mechanics (e.g. archaic pathing, cloning, no worker rally, reaver scarab pathing) that became a part of the game that truly raise the skill cap sky high. When you see a skilled player navigating all of these flawlessly, you can appreciate his skill so much more.
Also, I find that even though I can only understand some of what the Korean commentators are saying in casted BW games, I like them so much better than I do SC2 English casters. Korean casters just have so much more energy than the oftentimes lethargic and uninspired droning of even professional SC2 casters.
SC2 is still a top-notch game, but I just love watching BW so much more.
Leave why you voted as you did in the comments.
Poll: Which do you prefer to watch played?
BW; I think it will stay this way. (141)
65%
BW, but it might change. (46)
21%
SC2; I think it will stay this way. (29)
13%
SC2, but it might change. (0)
0%
216 total votes
Your vote: Which do you prefer to watch played?
(Vote): BW; I think it will stay this way. (Vote): SC2; I think it will stay this way. (Vote): BW, but it might change. (Vote): SC2, but it might change.
edit: changed the poll since I didn't accommodate for evolution.
On August 19 2010 17:17 Shiragaku wrote: SC II needs some more time to evolve. It is not like I enjoy going back to games in 2002 and seeing players play at my own level.
Watching D+/C games isn't actually that boring. There's a lot of fun stuff at the low levels.
BW but it might change is the only reasonable answer for me. SC2 obviously isn't finished refining and I'm not gonna pass judgment on it in comparison to broodwar until that happens.
I've actually come to prefer watching SC2, but it is admittedly mostly due to the fact that it's easier on the eyes. We can pretend as much as we want that graphics don't matter, but in reality for a spectator e-sport it's an important factor, especially given that BW will never have definition beyond 640x480. I also think the new-factor plays a big role, and the interest in seeing how SC2 evolves.
I voted BW at this point simply because I think it is still a heck of a lot more exciting. I gave SC2 another chance last night watching the IEM matches, it was okay at best, even with day9 casting (the matches were kind of bland, I didn't react much). I get two very different reactions when I see storms in BW (face up close to monitor and a lot of OMFG!111!) and storms in SC2 (mmmm smart cast). I do admit though that SC2 is a beautiful game, and hopefully through it's expansions it will become more exciting.
Also why couldn't you just post this in the other SC2 vs BW thread?
On August 19 2010 17:27 stafu wrote: I've actually come to prefer watching SC2, but it is admittedly mostly due to the fact that it's easier on the eyes. We can pretend as much as we want that graphics don't matter, but in reality for a spectator e-sport it's an important factor, especially given that BW will never have definition beyond 640x480. I also think the new-factor plays a big role, and the interest in seeing how SC2 evolves.
BW by far atm. Game is deeper, more dynamic, readable, exciting. Just a lot more fun to watch to me.
SC2 is a pretty fun to watch as well (at least the recommended games) but imo that's mostly because it's fresh and new. The actual stuff that is pulled off has been quite bland so far compared to BW. And I don't see it changing too much over the years, at least not until the expansions.
BW still. The maps are varied and great, there are many subtle changes to the general strategies that make them unique, the game is very clear and easy to follow. I could go on, but you get the picture.
I tried to watch SC2 and enjoy it... but it's actually really boring and I don't understand what is interesting about it. It's basically impossible for me to tell how much of that is inherent to the games themselves as opposed to obvious differences personal to me.
edit: another thing is the players involved. When you're watching korean BW there's an entire history to the players and your attachments to them. SC2 less so. Another thing is it's basically impossible to tell who the best SC2 players are because of the lack of a universal ladder and the multiple realms. But even then; watching B- or higher BW players stream their first person view is still more exciting for me than the SC2 equivalent. I used to watch Lzgamer stream BW and it was entertaining. Then I watched him stream SC2 but I never actually watched I'd always change to something else because it didn't hold my attention. I would guess part of it is that SC2 has less interaction between players than BW?
Broodwar by far. SC2 is more fun to play for me, but SC2 is pretty boring to watch on a whole. Nowhere near the grace and finesse of BW. Not to mention it doesn't have PLAAAGUUUUU!
Completely agree with OP. When I watch a SC2 where the players just 1a their armies into each other, I think "wow that's so lame even I can do that". When I see them with perfect macro I know it's easy because of MBS, automine, and smart rallying. When I see someone do some sick micro I know it's largely facilitated by smart casting. Whereas in BW, even something as little as a worker being sent off to mine is manually ordered by the player.
The mechanics and skill of a professional BW player are insane. Not so in SC2 and will probably never be. I don't think I will ever be able to stand watching SC2 when none of the players have the skill of a random B-team practice partner in BW.
Voted bw, though it could well change. i still love watching bw games like nothing else and while i play starcraft2 now i often lose interest when i try to watch sc2 games T_T
On August 19 2010 18:22 writer22816 wrote: Completely agree with OP. When I watch a SC2 where the players just 1a their armies into each other, I think "wow that's so lame even I can do that". When I see them with perfect macro I know it's easy because of MBS, automine, and smart rallying. When I see someone do some sick micro I know it's largely facilitated by smart casting. Whereas in BW, even something as little as a worker being sent off to mine is manually ordered by the player.
The mechanics and skill of a professional BW player are insane. Not so in SC2 and will probably never be. I don't think I will ever be able to stand watching SC2 when none of the players have the skill of a random B-team practice partner in BW.
Well, Idra does. Since he IS a B-team practice partner in BW.
BW has so much small details that the audience can appreciate. The intricate details of timing and pushing with Terran metal, the gusty speedlots busting lurker formations, the shuttle drops and flanking by protoss armies, the sparky MnM versus zerg. The insane storm carpet at crucial moments in game.
There is no doubt, BW was beautiful, it was one of a kind.
Where did they all go? I have to say I'm really bored with Sc2 at the moment.
BroodWar wins for me. With the super unit pathing and clumping of sc2 it's just ball vs ball... I really miss those hudge 3 screens battle from broodwar
Part of something that makes me prefer BW over SC2 is screen resolution. BW might be "limited and constrained" by its smaller resolution, but I find SC2's resolution to be too big.. a small scale fight is just a lot less fun to watch in SC2 than BW, mainly because the field of view is just too damn big. And 200/200 army fights.. much less impressive in SC2.. in fact, any engagement is just much less impressive in general.
And also the visibility is fucking bad. I can't even see a Mutalisk's attack fly out and bounce off for god's sake, how am I supposed to enjoy the harass? OH shit wait nvm there is no harass worth watching.
Things that will not change : - no stack muta, no vult micro, wraith micro or w/e : self explanatory :| - smart casting : no Jangbi storms that make me :O :O :O - MBS : any noob can have Flash's TvZ barracks macro :|
(I know it took 8 years to understand how to stack mutas, but BW was interesting before that, and I'm not gonna wait 8 years to watch SC2 rofl)
Things that might improve : - PLAYGUUUUUUUUU - ALBITOOOOOOOOOO - RIBOOOOOO
Seriously, I love Korean commentators. I really mean it. I love them. My wife always complains when she's watching her tv series in the same room "Why the hell do you put the sound so fucking loud, you don't even speak Korean ?!" hahahaha
broodwar. i watched some sc2 games in the last few weeks, and most of them were really boring. I really miss these "WTF" moments in sc2. and I really don't like that unit clumps... a huge problem is that in sc2 a lot of micro action is related to the usage of unit skills (e.g. blink, forcefield). the micro in bw is circled around the specific movement capabilities of a unit. the differences between units in sc2 are smaller than in bw. I`ve seen some matches with max. detail level and healthbars on, and it was really hard to tell, what was happening. compared to bw, sc2 often is quite confusing. but I hope it will improve with the addons.
BW owns SC2 in so many ways, easier to spot units in balls and easier to follow all the action.
SC2 is just too much clutter and you can barely tell the outcome of a battle, and since BW is such a evolved and explored game even small details in gameplay can make big differences. And i can't forget to say that micro battles in BW are 100000000 times more exciting and better than SC2.
On August 19 2010 20:13 niteReloaded wrote: SC2 unless it's a top top matchup, like top 5 kespa vs-ing each other. I can't feel the passion for lower level games.
On the other hand, SC2, I can watch basically anything.
TSL players are far from being as skilled as korean top tier, nevertheless every single match was incredibly good. I remember putting a pizza in oven just before every match and eat while watching TSL. Even Mondi vs Sen (I know, a foreign ZvZ sounds awful) was so tense !
I also love to watch lowel level games, but it's more for learning purposes.
BW is more entertaining and will be for a long long time, if it survives. And I think its precisely due to the reasons you'ev said, the imperfections in BW make it more exciting w hen you see players overcoming them. It seems like all SC2 players are too lazy or not good enough to deviate from the smooth system given to them.
SC2 definably needs more time to evolve, patch, balance, maps etc. Strangely enough I've gotten bored of playing SC2 already, custom maps suck (mostly based on wc3...) compared to BW and team matches get repetitive with the same race while BW kept me hooked for years, games rarely played out the same way.
I will agree to what some mentioned, there is way to much unit clumps and 1a moving to make micro battles exiting to watch, it still suffers from the "biggest army wins" syndrome where in BW the dynamics, high ground, momentum of positioning can make units and armies extremely cost effective, the only cost effective units in SC2 are casters and their to few.
SC2 looks about 100x nicer if you have a halfway decent computer. It's gorgeous on good one. It also takes every important core element that made BW great and refines it. I loved the original, but it's 2010 and it looks like shit when compared visual with SC2. This is every bit as fluid as the original; the visuals, the game play.... everything.
The fact that all of you would base your opinions on something dumb like the ability to select more than 12 units and friggin automine.... jesus christ people. That's like the biggest hockey fan in the world suddenly hating the game because they ditched dead trees for composite sticks. It's inconsequential in the visual appeal to a spectator.
BW is better, but it doesn't have to do with limited selection or manual mining or whatever skill requirement.
It's just that the dynamics of the game are more interesting. Cooler unit types, less "blobby" pathing, maps,etc. Maybe this will change with expansions? I don't think the players alone will reinvent enough to make it play that interesting on these maps, I mean it's as about as boring to watch current SC2 game or something from earlier beta - even if they play better.
SC2 emphasises unit choices too much, that's not as interesting to watch as maneuvering and battle micro. There's good amount of micro in SC2 but battles tend to be too short.
BW pathing was terrible. I hated Peaks of Bae-whatever for that reason and a bunch of other maps. Dragoons and Reavers got stuck all the time. I hated BW pathing.
And cooler units, dunno about that. The phoenix is the shit. I'll take that any day over a corsair based purely on coolness. Warprays blow scouts out of the water. And the collosus... pure badass. The only unit that got nixed that I really miss is the lurker and maybe defilers. Everything else is lateral at worst or awesome.
And I don't get why 'SC2 emphasizes unit choices too much' is constantly brought up. You played BW. What happens if you send lings vs firebats?? Lings vs goons??
The only possible thing that I could see as a negative is that there isn't as much depth due to the lack of established builds yet and the age of the game. But this is also the beauty. There's a lot more to be discovered. It's incentive to get creative.
SC2 is but a newborn fresh out of the womb. BW is a seasoned veteran. Of course BW is better. But who knows about the future? With better maps and better players and time and expansion packs, SC2 could overcome in the long run.
BW is definitely more tense at the moment, and this from a guy that knows next to nothing about BW strategy. I just enjoy watching it with the basic principles of RTS.
It's really just the dynamics of the game that makes BW so fun... When I watch sc2 I feel like im watching a skirmish, when I watch BW i feel like im watching a full blown war... Even though sc2 may become more refined, the dynamics of the game favor BW. SC2 lacks reavers, spidermines, insane storms and lurkers. Those units added soo much excitement to BW. Those explosive things in BW make it so damn exciting, MINE DAEBAK or godly scarabs, or stopped lurkers chewing everything up. Great for spectators.
You see, in BW it was like this crazy war but in SC2 you usually see one giant fight and whoever wins wins the game, those make about 90% of the games, in BW a player can win the giant fight but may stilll lose the game, theres just a lot more back and fourth in BW. Great for spectators.
Also since BW has less user-friendly things, when I see godly storms in BW im like dam hes fucking good! But when I see storms blanket things in SC2 Im like well... that looks like me when I play... I mean SC2 has so much weird stuff like cooldown with abilities, a unit with attack that slows to make kiting ez mode..., and auto-repair and automine.... its hard for me to get excited as a spectator when I know the stuff is really auto. When I see a player macro in BW i'm like damnnnnn insaneeee. But in SC2 you can select multi building so its not really that impressive, same thing with insane muta micro versus phenix automove shoot thing sigh...
On August 19 2010 23:50 AppleTart wrote: You see, in BW it was like this crazy war but in SC2 you usually see one giant fight and whoever wins wins the game, those make about 90% of the games, in BW a player can win the giant fight but may stilll lose the game, theres just a lot more back and fourth in BW. Great for spectators.
On August 19 2010 23:50 AppleTart wrote: You see, in BW it was like this crazy war but in SC2 you usually see one giant fight and whoever wins wins the game, those make about 90% of the games, in BW a player can win the giant fight but may stilll lose the game, theres just a lot more back and fourth in BW. Great for spectators.
What version of SC2 are you playing??
Same as everyone else, about 80% of my diamond PvTs end up as some giant clash between a ball of bio and my zeals and colosi.... granted I'm not the best, but at least many of my D+ games on ICCUP were pretty dynamic.
I prefer BW for spectating a lot. At one point I stopped and returned following pro bw, I didnt know the maps/strats/players but still found it amazingly fun to watch. SC2 is OK, but I find I have to like the players/MU to enjoy it. The gap will close, as obviously we are comparing Elite players+Professional Broadcasters but I doubt it will surpass it.
One problem with bw though is the start is a bit slower (4 miners vs 6). I think certain gameplay elements in BW are just so devastating its fun to watch, even if you dont get all the subtleties. Big Reaver hits, mine ownage and vulture runbys, scourges etc. The other thing for me is the sound effects.BW sound effects are so loud and pronounced. SC2's is OK, but I felt like WC3 had really boring sound effects.
Have to mostly agree with Hawk here, but also say that I currently do enjoy BW more.
Obviously having Jaedong/Flash/Fantasy/Bisu/whoever else playing BW makes it more exciting. They're freaking monsters. Idra is good, no doubt, and he's been showing us some great gameplay, but he doesn't destroy his competition in the same way, say, Flash does.
SC2 players need to get better, and they are. You can tell the skill gap from even two months ago. New players are arriving all the time, some old players are leaving since they don't want to put in the time or effort, and in general, it's still coming up.
When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
Anyone who's talking about units not being as splashy as in BW, okay, that might be a little true. But it evens out the game too. I personally hate seeing a game won just because of a lucky (or unlucky) scarab or spider mine. There's still some awesome moments in the game, like blue fire hellions attacking a worker line, or banelings dropping into a worker line, or just banelings in general. Especially early on. They hit like a ton of bricks.
This isn't even counting my favorite unit ever, the phoenix, which, in my opinion, looks badass with "moving shot."
As players get better, I think we'll see less of this giant ball vs. giant ball stuff in tournaments, and a more fluid and mobile army that might spread itself out either to contain or defend multiple expansions. The potential of a lot of units are definitely undiscovered. Remember how everyone thought siege tanks sucked? Then a minor change to splash, followed by an HP buff, and they were considered overpowered. Even after a 10 damage nerf. All the match-ups are constantly evolving.
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own).
What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way.
I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess.
Ofc its BW. In SC2, Blizzard just taken out to much small things that audience can applaud on. Now with all that auto surronding, smart target arquire and everything... Its really just come to who scout better/better luck to do a build that counter his opponent.
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own).
What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way.
I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess.
I don't know, I feel like we're starting to see some of that stuff come out of SC2. Admittedly, the movement types aren't drastically different like BW, with the sliding shot from vultures and muta micro, etc. etc. but there's some interesting fights coming out.
Vikings against void rays tends to be interesting, it's actually really easy for a terran player to screw up just a bit and lose his vikings. I personally find great satisfaction in invading an entrenched terran position and lifting all his tanks with phoenixes so my zealots can run in. Thors stand around and bully mutas, while zerg players try to get their mutas to either spread, or stand right on top of the thor to take less damage from the splash. And I'm pretty sure we'll see some sweet storm dodging at one point or another. Zergling vs. baneling is pretty cool to watch, with zerg players trying to snipe banelings while the banelings try to get worker kills or multiple zergling kills.
I do agree that some of the SC2 design does seem against the "wow" factor. Again, I point out that it does provide for more consistent games, with less of a turning point based on one spell cast, or one lucky hit. Still, I'm a little disappointed as well that storms are so small, EMPs are so quick and fungal growth is instant. Fungal growth really needs an animation. It's so weird to just see random units lock into place, then have green stuff grow on them. I'm actually alright with the current implementation of storm. They feel pretty powerful if used correctly. I wish EMP had a more visual hit--you can actually lose it inside of a battle pretty easily.
Still, I feel like certain strategies are "locked" in SC2. Hopefully we'll eventually see a protoss player slide fast void rays around the map keeping them fully charged the entire time at the cost of a poor phoenix's shields, or maybe in the terran player's base.
Honestly, this is all very theoretical, because I don't think a "standard" play style has really emerged yet, for SC2. People use so many different builds that all have varying degrees of effectiveness.
(Oh, and minor sidenote: One thing I don't like about BW is how it is partially reliant on gltiches. Yes, muta stacking is cool, but it's hard for a new viewer to understand. It's counterintuitive. Just like the extremely annoying building placement necessary for BW)
On August 20 2010 01:34 Caphe wrote: Ofc its BW. In SC2, Blizzard just taken out to much small things that audience can applaud on. Now with all that auto surronding, smart target arquire and everything... Its really just come to who scout better/better luck to do a build that counter his opponent.
Why does everyone use such ridiculous hyperbole?? Play using just attack move vs someone who does basic micro. He will beat you.
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own).
What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way.
I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess.
Feedback is a beautiful thing in some match ups. Smack a thor with it—it's not easy but the reward is great. And phoenix use definitely isn't easy. If you've got enough to lift and harass, he's probably got AA units. You gotta micro and lift the right stuff while still controlling your main army and macroing, which isn't exactly easy since you've got to warp in units. And sentries are a very strong unit if properly used and that's not easy as people are making it out to be.
Hydras still get hurt by storm. Infestors are the new defiler and they're just as worthless without micro. There's plenty of instances where each unit has a unique way it is microed. You guys aren't realizing it because you're so used to old BW units. Hell, blink stalkers are damn fun. It's so rewarding to see big army charging at you and then blinking to the back to take out some casters.
Broodwar will always be my favorite to watch simply because of the memories and emotions I have attached to it. SC2 is definitely fun to watch and I can see why a lot of people love to watch it, and I'm sure I'll grow to enjoy watching it almost as much as BW, but it will never surpass BW.
On August 20 2010 01:34 Caphe wrote: Ofc its BW. In SC2, Blizzard just taken out to much small things that audience can applaud on. Now with all that auto surronding, smart target arquire and everything... Its really just come to who scout better/better luck to do a build that counter his opponent.
Why does everyone use such ridiculous hyperbole?? Play using just attack move vs someone who does basic micro. He will beat you.
because basic micro is a given.. No one orgasmed when you used dragoons to kite zealots, it was 100% assumed even lowly D level players would (or should..) do that. And that kind of basic micro is literally 90% of the micro possible in sc2. laaaaaaaame
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
It was pretty good, but it looks like the only kind of potentially impressive micro you can see in SC2 (kiting/hit & running and stuff), aside from FFs and maybe some phoenix shit (dunno how much skills it takes though, seems like they attack like that on their own).
What makes BW beautiful imo is the diversity in all kinds of micro. Almost every single unit has its own way of being controlled. Worker sliding, zergling surrounds, M&M vs lurkers, lurkers vs M&M, shuttle/reaver, carriers, goliaths vs carriers, muta vs m&m, mutas vs scourges, hydras vs storm (escaping), defiler micro, wraith vs Z micro, valk micro, spider mines placement micro, etc etc etc. Basically nothing feels the same as anything else, and everything can feel impressive and "wow" in its own unique way.
I don't see such a huge diversity happening in SC2 no matter how skilled the players become in the future. The game just doesn't feel designed in a way that would make it possible. Only time will tell I guess.
Feedback is a beautiful thing in some match ups. Smack a thor with it—it's not easy but the reward is great. And phoenix use definitely isn't easy. If you've got enough to lift and harass, he's probably got AA units. You gotta micro and lift the right stuff while still controlling your main army and macroing, which isn't exactly easy since you've got to warp in units. And sentries are a very strong unit if properly used and that's not easy as people are making it out to be.
Hydras still get hurt by storm. Infestors are the new defiler and they're just as worthless without micro. There's plenty of instances where each unit has a unique way it is microed. You guys aren't realizing it because you're so used to old BW units. Hell, blink stalkers are damn fun. It's so rewarding to see big army charging at you and then blinking to the back to take out some casters.
The point isnt that sc2 has no micro, it's that it pales in comparison to BW micro. Storm in BW = gg. Storm in BW = half hp hydras. And phoenix micro is a joke. Even arbiter micro was harder than that. And much more exciting to watch because each arbiter cost a fortune and took forever to make. Infestor micro... what just pressing 1 then spamming f on the enemy army? You can't honestly tell me that's comparable to cloning darkswarms while having to click drag your entire lurker/ling army in.
sc2 has lots of micro, it's just a joke compared to BW.
The engagements in SC2 just seem too dull and bland compared to the intricate battles of BW.
Maybe one day SC2 will have something as cool as ZvT vessels trying to irradiate defilers before they got too close to swarm while dodging scourge while the scourge are trying not to get too close to marines and sieging tanks and controlling 5 groups of MM dodging lurker spines and focusing fire on lurkers before they burrowed but at the same time swarm is being cast and lurkers are burrowing in slow increments 2 or 3 at a time to try and force T back as much as possible while firebats are being positioned to do max splash damage on lings while lings are trying to spread vs the firebats and planting mines with vultures and lings are running through minefields for a minedrag all at the same time while keeping resources low off 4 base.
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: Have to mostly agree with Hawk here, but also say that I currently do enjoy BW more.
Obviously having Jaedong/Flash/Fantasy/Bisu/whoever else playing BW makes it more exciting. They're freaking monsters. Idra is good, no doubt, and he's been showing us some great gameplay, but he doesn't destroy his competition in the same way, say, Flash does.
SC2 players need to get better, and they are. You can tell the skill gap from even two months ago. New players are arriving all the time, some old players are leaving since they don't want to put in the time or effort, and in general, it's still coming up.
When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
Anyone who's talking about units not being as splashy as in BW, okay, that might be a little true. But it evens out the game too. I personally hate seeing a game won just because of a lucky (or unlucky) scarab or spider mine. There's still some awesome moments in the game, like blue fire hellions attacking a worker line, or banelings dropping into a worker line, or just banelings in general. Especially early on. They hit like a ton of bricks.
This isn't even counting my favorite unit ever, the phoenix, which, in my opinion, looks badass with "moving shot."
As players get better, I think we'll see less of this giant ball vs. giant ball stuff in tournaments, and a more fluid and mobile army that might spread itself out either to contain or defend multiple expansions. The potential of a lot of units are definitely undiscovered. Remember how everyone thought siege tanks sucked? Then a minor change to splash, followed by an HP buff, and they were considered overpowered. Even after a 10 damage nerf. All the match-ups are constantly evolving.
This typically turns out to not be so much luck as it is skill. And having a bit of luck within a game is what makes it exciting, so it's not a bad thing at all.
On August 19 2010 22:23 Hawk wrote: SC2 looks about 100x nicer if you have a halfway decent computer. It's gorgeous on good one. It also takes every important core element that made BW great and refines it. I loved the original, but it's 2010 and it looks like shit when compared visual with SC2. This is every bit as fluid as the original; the visuals, the game play.... everything.
The fact that all of you would base your opinions on something dumb like the ability to select more than 12 units and friggin automine.... jesus christ people. That's like the biggest hockey fan in the world suddenly hating the game because they ditched dead trees for composite sticks. It's inconsequential in the visual appeal to a spectator.
Sorry Hawk, SC2 looks like any modern RTS game. I can't see wtf is going on beneath the laser beams
If you actually read the thread, you would understand the implications of 12 unit groups and automine. It's not about bringing SC2 down, it's about appreciating the high skill required for BW. And selecting 100 units to 1a attack is consequential, it looks shit.
On August 20 2010 00:37 DeckOneBell wrote: Have to mostly agree with Hawk here, but also say that I currently do enjoy BW more.
Obviously having Jaedong/Flash/Fantasy/Bisu/whoever else playing BW makes it more exciting. They're freaking monsters. Idra is good, no doubt, and he's been showing us some great gameplay, but he doesn't destroy his competition in the same way, say, Flash does.
SC2 players need to get better, and they are. You can tell the skill gap from even two months ago. New players are arriving all the time, some old players are leaving since they don't want to put in the time or effort, and in general, it's still coming up.
When I first thought, damn, SC2 tournaments are going to be AWESOME was when IntoTheRainbow fought Tester on Blistering Sands. Did anyone else see that marauder micro? It was ridiculous the way he saved all his marauders while picking off unit after unit, even against forcefield, taking a split second to even lower a supply depot. And that's probably only the start of the ridiculous micro we're going to see in SC2.
Anyone who's talking about units not being as splashy as in BW, okay, that might be a little true. But it evens out the game too. I personally hate seeing a game won just because of a lucky (or unlucky) scarab or spider mine. There's still some awesome moments in the game, like blue fire hellions attacking a worker line, or banelings dropping into a worker line, or just banelings in general. Especially early on. They hit like a ton of bricks.
This isn't even counting my favorite unit ever, the phoenix, which, in my opinion, looks badass with "moving shot."
As players get better, I think we'll see less of this giant ball vs. giant ball stuff in tournaments, and a more fluid and mobile army that might spread itself out either to contain or defend multiple expansions. The potential of a lot of units are definitely undiscovered. Remember how everyone thought siege tanks sucked? Then a minor change to splash, followed by an HP buff, and they were considered overpowered. Even after a 10 damage nerf. All the match-ups are constantly evolving.
This typically turns out to not be so much luck as it is skill. And having a bit of luck within a game is what makes it exciting, so it's not a bad thing at all.
Just my personal opinion.
I do think a majority of the situations where a scarab pops tons of probes or a spider mine breaks a cluster of hydras tends to be caused by skill, but there's definitely annoying scarab duds or lucky scarab jukes, or even spaz-tastic mines that move for about a minute before they hit something.
remember folks this is also about spectators not just players. Those scarabs and sometimes random mines give the 3 pages in threads about OMG MINE and excitement.
I think the sounds and graphics are a major let down in Starcraft 2. It's mostly fine when you are playing but when spectating more often than not the bigger battles turn into an absolute mess and all the sounds blend together. You just can't tell what is going on. WC3 suffers from the same problem.
When spectating, being able to tell what is going on is the most important thing. Even more important than exciting micro and interesting units. Both of which SC2 is also lacking.
EPT
