I'm five months unemployed now, and since I graduated last 2008, I have only had nine months worth of work experience. I've been getting a bit desperate and open to most kinds of jobs, despite having graduated with a business degree from one of the top schools here. I've been provided with a couple of offers to essentially sell products and find people who also want to sell those products; i.e. acting as dealer w/ commissions from sub-dealerships I can bring in is the way I understand the business model works.
Now my questions are: Have you had experience being approached and offered these products by people you know?
How do you feel about your friends doing this, if you have any who are in this line of work?
If someone you know or you yourself work in this field, what have been your experiences with the people and company/ies that have handled you? Has it been a positive experience for you as a person and as a career option?
Finally: Do you think investing a month's equivalent worth of salary (for a white-collar worker; around 300+ dollars here in our country) to start out in the job as your "capital" too much of a risk, or is it justifiable (as this is naturally a business)
Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot who fell for it or someone trying to con you. The dudes are always the same: They make tons of money, but you never seem to see that in their clothes, home or lifestyle. Not to mention that any reputable company isn't going to require that you invest in them to work.
Pyramid schemes are annoying as fuck. Typically, it's a very long-term investment for any kind of pay-off, and I can tell you that my respect dwindles immediately for any "friend" who tries to sell me on this shit. Granted, I've never had a close friend do it, but an old room-mate tried, as well as the brother of a friend of mine, who I thought I was starting to get along very well with. Then I realize they just want to sell their shit to me -- which is absolutely not worth it usually, by the by.
This book is one of the definitive takedowns of this kind of business. I highly recommend it. The author was an Amway distributor, and a very successful one, for several years before deciding to quit. He must have lost a court case recently because his book used to be far more accessible. Get it while you can.
As for more personal experience, the owner of a music school where I used to work lost her business largely as a result of putting too much time and money into her Quixtar business, which has never been profitable for her, and not enough into her music school, that could easily have been quite profitable.
The only thing you are likely to gain by this sort of "job" is the ability to approach people you don't know and try to sell them things, which could be a useful skill in the future. Still, there are far better ways to learn that. Instead of (in all probability) spending a great deal of money in MLM, you could do street canvasing for a non-profit and learn many of the same skills while actually getting paid.
If it's a Pyramid scheme, don't do it. It's not going to be worth it, 99.99% of the time you will lose out, it'll be worst if you got your friends/family involved selling under you.
I think this video might also be of interest to you. It's from Penn and Teller's Bullshit series and it's about multi level marketing. The video contains nudity at the very beginning so NSFW (they always randomly throw in nudity for some reason, don't be surprised because I warned you). Vid is in spoiler + Show Spoiler +
Actually, the answer I'll give to how "successful" you can be is...it depends.
If you get in on something new, close to the ground floor, you can make a shitpile of cash off of it, IF you put in some serious time & effort. I have a very good friend who has a sex-toy multi-level-marketing business and she makes more than I do in a year. Now, she does in-home parties almost every night, and has a pile of people under her in the pyramid, and part of the reason she's successful is she has focused more on selling product than getting new pleebs under her.
On the other side, I have a friend who got into Amway thinking it would make him rich. He spent a pile of energy on recruting pleebs, hardly ever sold a fucking product, and of course failed fucking spectacularly with it....I think he lost his house in the process.
Personally, if the idea/company is all but brand new & they have good quality product you can focus on, you can make money, but be prepared to invest probably more time than a full-time job would be to make a solid go at it. Its pure grunt sales work, and is not a fucking pleasant way to make money...I've worked in my life as commissioned sales, and it sucks balls in my opinion.
And unless the $300 is buying sample product, tell them to go fuck themselves. Its one thing to have display product, and I obviously would expect having to pay for that...but if the $300 is a "membership" so you can even sell their overpriced shit, its generally a fucking ripoff & you'll be expected to make your money selling memberships, not product, which gets deeply into Pyramid territory.
samalie raises a good point. Some of these schemes are more focused on a specific product. I believe there is a famous knife company that works this way. In general, the more the company focuses on selling an actual product as opposed to recruiting more members, the more legitimate they are.
The two options I'm looking at right now both have me buying some of their product to demonstrate/sell to other people as the opt-in for them. I've checked out the corporate profiles over the Internet and both companies have shown themselves to be legit; as they sell specific niche products. I could name-drop them if you want; but I'm not yet going to commit in any way to them (and yes, I know how to stall and shrug off these guys if and when I want to).
On August 18 2010 01:22 HCastorp wrote: samalie raises a good point. Some of these schemes are more focused on a specific product. I believe there is a famous knife company that works this way. In general, the more the company focuses on selling an actual product as opposed to recruiting more members, the more legitimate they are.
Yeah, that's a scam. Jesus christ people, common sense and five minutes of searching on the internet is all that you should need to realize this.
On August 18 2010 01:50 Ciryandor wrote: The two options I'm looking at right now both have me buying some of their product to demonstrate/sell to other people as the opt-in for them. I've checked out the corporate profiles over the Internet and both companies have shown themselves to be legit; as they sell specific niche products. I could name-drop them if you want; but I'm not yet going to commit in any way to them (and yes, I know how to stall and shrug off these guys if and when I want to).
If you're just going to ignore every halfway intelligent poster that came in here telling you that these things are always scams, what's the point of the thread??
This book is one of the definitive takedowns of this kind of business. I highly recommend it. The author was an Amway distributor, and a very successful one, for several years before deciding to quit. He must have lost a court case recently because his book used to be far more accessible. Get it while you can.
As for more personal experience, the owner of a music school where I used to work lost her business largely as a result of putting too much time and money into her Quixtar business, which has never been profitable for her, and not enough into her music school, that could easily have been quite profitable.
The only thing you are likely to gain by this sort of "job" is the ability to approach people you don't know and try to sell them things, which could be a useful skill in the future. Still, there are far better ways to learn that. Instead of (in all probability) spending a great deal of money in MLM, you could do street canvasing for a non-profit and learn many of the same skills while actually getting paid.
soooo weird I almost got scammed into that shit just yesterday
they are HIIIIIIIIIIIGHLY convincing people let me tell you!
On August 18 2010 01:50 Ciryandor wrote: The two options I'm looking at right now both have me buying some of their product to demonstrate/sell to other people as the opt-in for them. I've checked out the corporate profiles over the Internet and both companies have shown themselves to be legit; as they sell specific niche products. I could name-drop them if you want; but I'm not yet going to commit in any way to them (and yes, I know how to stall and shrug off these guys if and when I want to).
Yeah, links to their websites would be nice.
But as a rule: ANY company that has you buying their product before paying you is a scam. Probably not in the strict definition, but their business model is certainly morally questionable on their part, and you are virtually guaranteed to either lose money or make much less than what is represented to you.
Seriously, even doing temp work or cashiering at Wal-Mart (swallow your pride!) is more stable and better paying than this job. And you can look for jobs that better suit your education in the meantime.
Seriously, I do know the risks. I'd rather be a pure salesperson and just have a commission-based job than anything like this... and thanks for convincing me I should just keep them hanging a bit more; since I SHOULDN'T be that desperate.
I knew I could count on you guys to knock some sense into me. Not having a job for this long despite graduating from the BEST university in our country with a Business degree isn't exactly good for your self-esteem and morale. Shit sucks, but if I can use this travesty of even thinking of stooping to this level to turn myself around and make a good life out of it, I'd owe it partly to you guys.
Also, if you live in the US/Europe, please DON'T be so ticked off when people call you to offer you stuff especially if it's in the name of a major company, lots of people here in Asia earn their living from it. It's best to just say no politely, and ask the company that did it to opt you out of getting offers from them in the future. I still hate jobs like that, either annoying people by selling additional stuff for say Dell, or having to deal with some twelve year old screaming at you because his X Box doesn't work anymore and he wants his Modern Warfare 2 fix RIGHT NOW. It's a really shitty job, but you have to thank yourselves that it's not you as adults who have degrees manning them, but us here in Asia who've got decent degrees but no other options than to either emigrate (to help fill the skill gaps in the West's workforce) or get shit-tier jobs you'd pay people minimum wage to even consider (like encoding financial information or digitizing medical records)
Edit: For the record, I live in the god-forsaken FAILipines. Graduate of Business Administration from the University of the Philippines (best school in this country, period) So it's not exactly a good option to even cashier or gas boy here (they take HIGH SCHOOL graduates for those for chrissakes)
People here are severely uninformed about this issue here, (both on TL and in the general population). This whole industry is actually great in theory. The only problem is that in practice, it can't work because the general population is not open to it. Meaning; the underlying idea is great. The recruit can make infinitely more money than the recruiter while building a network in order to commercialize a product, or an ever expanding line of products or services. Also, it is based on the power of personal relationships to close a sale. Which, again, sounds great, but only in theory for a variety of reasons. An infinite stream of monthly royalties can result from a few years of hard labor, hence the dream life etc.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDGGuPtakc)
The problem with this whole picture is that the industry has an incredibly bad reputation (undeserved in my opinion, at least the original source of this bad reputation is undeserved). Therefore, this bad reputation about "people losing money" is the very cause and the very reason why most people are actually losing money. Imagine friend A trying to recruit friend B based on some otherwise very legitimate business opportunity which happens to have a bad reputation attached to it. Friend B will tell friend A that this business is bullshit because he heard people were losing money with it. Friend B wont join Friend A's business. Friend A will try with friend C, but the result will be the same. Friend A's business will show net sales of Zero dollars and will eventually quit the business with rage inside him. Afterwards, Friend B and C will ask friend A if he made any money with it. "TOLD you SO" is their answer, mocking him. Acquaintance D who had originally successfully recruited friend A will see that his business is collapsing under him since friend A is quitting the business because he couldnt recruit his friends B and C and therefore is bringing in zero money for himself. Friend A is no longer, or never has been, profitable for acquaintance D. Acquaintance D's business is also suffering because Friend E, who had also joined his business some time ago, is also quitting the business since he couldnt recruit his friends F and G since they told him "people were losing money in this business" because they interviewed friend A and his colleagues B and C about their experience.
I used to do this and i didnt make a dime. (i guess you can see why). Out of those who try, 99.7% wont make enough money to justify the time investment. Meaning its a profitable business for 0.3%. Thats 3 out of 1000 reps. Do i get these numbers out of my ass you may ask? No, for a period of about 2 years, i had access to a VP's online reporting tool. These numbers were based on a sample of roughly 20,000 representatives which was the amount of people he had in his network. 60 individuals made money out of 20,000. The dude in question made ~30,000 on a monthly basis at 25 years of age.
Now, for the record. People who claim that;
"If you get in on something new, close to the ground floor, you can make a shitpile of cash off of it, IF you put in some serious time & effort."
or; "The dudes are always the same: They make tons of money, but you never seem to see that in their clothes, home or lifestyle"
don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Basically, the only way to determine if you will make money with those things are;
1-You need to be an incredible salesman. If you're just an amazing salesman, don't do it. you need more than that, you need to be fucking incredible at convincing people. Both on the phone and face-to-face. 2- you need to dispose of a lot of time (kinda stupid since it so obvious) it serves as a main occupation. most of the time. also you can do it part-time early on, but its still many hours. 3- you need to have the most unshakable patience in the world and be prepared to hear the word pyramid a couple hundred times a day.
If you have these 3 attributes, i honestly suggest you go for it. you'll make loads of cash early in life, and if youre smart enough you won't ever again have to work a day in your life. how young the company is is not an important factor as long as the company is "decent" for a direct selling company. you just gotta be an insane salesman.
On August 18 2010 02:43 Ciryandor wrote: Seriously, I do know the risks. I'd rather be a pure salesperson and just have a commission-based job than anything like this... and thanks for convincing me I should just keep them hanging a bit more; since I SHOULDN'T be that desperate.
I knew I could count on you guys to knock some sense into me. Not having a job for this long despite graduating from the BEST university in our country with a Business degree isn't exactly good for your self-esteem and morale. Shit sucks, but if I can use this travesty of even thinking of stooping to this level to turn myself around and make a good life out of it, I'd owe it partly to you guys.
Also, if you live in the US/Europe, please DON'T be so ticked off when people call you to offer you stuff especially if it's in the name of a major company, lots of people here in Asia earn their living from it. It's best to just say no politely, and ask the company that did it to opt you out of getting offers from them in the future. I still hate jobs like that, either annoying people by selling additional stuff for say Dell, or having to deal with some twelve year old screaming at you because his X Box doesn't work anymore and he wants his Modern Warfare 2 fix RIGHT NOW. It's a really shitty job, but you have to thank yourselves that it's not you as adults who have degrees manning them, but us here in Asia who've got decent degrees but no other options than to either emigrate (to help fill the skill gaps in the West's workforce) or get shit-tier jobs you'd pay people minimum wage to even consider (like encoding financial information or digitizing medical records)
Edit: For the record, I live in the god-forsaken FAILipines. Graduate of Business Administration from the University of the Philippines (best school in this country, period) So it's not exactly a good option to even cashier or gas boy here (they take HIGH SCHOOL graduates for those for chrissakes)
Wait, if you live in the Philippines, then why is your country listed as United States? Everyone in the thread assumed you lived in the U.S.
On August 18 2010 02:51 intrudor wrote: People here are severely uninformed about this issue here, (both on TL and in the general population). This whole industry is actually great in theory. The only problem is that in practice, it can't work because the general population is not open to it. Meaning; the underlying idea is great. The recruit can make infinitely more money than the recruiter while building a network in order to commercialize a product, or an ever expanding line of products or services. Also, it is based on the power of personal relationships to close a sale. Which, again, sounds great, but only in practice for a variety of reasons. An infinite stream of monthly royalties can result from a few years of hard labor, hence the dream life etc.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDGGuPtakc)
The problem with this whole picture is that the industry has an incredibly bad reputation (undeserved in my opinion, at least the original source of this bad reputation is undeserved). Therefore, this bad reputation about "people losing money" is the very cause and the very reason why most people are actually losing money. Imagine friend A trying to recruit friend B based on some otherwise very legitimate business opportunity which happens to have a bad reputation attached to it. Friend B will tell friend A that this business is bullshit because he heard people were losing money with it. Friend B wont join Friend A's business. Friend A will try with friend C, but the result will be the same. Friend A's business will show net sales of Zero dollars and will eventually quit the business with rage inside him. Afterwards, Friend B and C will ask friend A if he made any money with it. "TOLD you SO" is their answer, mocking him. Acquaintance D who had originally successfully recruited friend A will see that his business is collapsing under him since friend A is quitting the business because he couldnt recruit his friends B and C and therefore is bring in zero money for himself. Friend A is no longer, or never has been, profitable for acquaintance D. Acquaintance D's business is also suffering because Friend E, who had also joined his business some time ago, is also quitting the business since he couldnt recruit his friends F and G since they told him "people were losing money in this business" because they interviewed friend A and his colleagues B and C about their experience.
I used to do this and i didnt make a dime. (i guess you can see why). Out of those who try, 99.7% wont make enough money to justify the time investment. Meaning its a profitable business for 0.3%. Thats 3 out of 1000 reps. Do i get these numbers out of my ass you may ask? No, for a period of about 2 years, i had access to a VP's online reporting tool. These numbers were based on a sample of roughly 20,000 representatives which was the amount of people he had in his network. 60 individuals made money out of 20,000. The dude in question made ~30,000 on a monthly basis at 25 years of age.
Now, for the record. People who claim that;
"If you get in on something new, close to the ground floor, you can make a shitpile of cash off of it, IF you put in some serious time & effort."
or; "The dudes are always the same: They make tons of money, but you never seem to see that in their clothes, home or lifestyle"
don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Basically, the only way to determine if you will make money with those things are;
1-You need to be an incredible salesman. If you're just an amazing salesman, don't do it. you need more than that, you need to be fucking incredible at convincing people. Both on the phone and face-to-face. 2- you need to dispose of a lot of time (kinda stupid since it so obvious) it serves as a main occupation. most of the time. also you can do it part-time early on, but its still many hours. 3- you need to have the most unshakable patience in the world and be prepared to hear the word pyramid a couple hundred times a day.
If you have these 3 attributes, i honestly suggest you go for it. you'll make loads of cash early in life, and if youre smart enough you won't ever again have to work a day in your life. how young the company is is not an important factor as long as the company is "decent" for a direct selling company. you just gotta be an insane salesman.
i don't know if great is how i'd describe something that pretty much receives condemnation from anyone from a brain. Great isn't what you call something that only a fraction of a percentage make profit, and that's off the backs of the people the scammed.
@ Empyrean It's because I never bothered changing it to my home country; helps in some argumentation in the General section too (people tend to look down on anyone posting in the different discussions there who don't place USA on their name/s unless they're well known). Also, I know the rep with which these companies have (damn it I majored marketing!!!) so..
I know and fully realize that you either have to be an INSANELY GOOD salesman to eke out a profit from selling products alone, or that you have a network of people who you know know the right people who will buy products. Being a salesperson is nice and all, but blah, I'd rather be sitting down in a BPO than doing it on legwork.
(Damn, do I have to turn this into a "Give me some encouragement to get myself a job blog"... [and holy crap it's nearly 2:30 AM here; was invited to a career day gig later at 9AM X_X])
People here are severely uninformed about this issue here, (both on TL and in the general population). This whole industry is actually great in theory. The only problem is that in practice, it can't work because the general population is not open to it. Meaning; the underlying idea is great. The recruit can make infinitely more money than the recruiter while building a network in order to commercialize a product, or an ever expanding line of products or services. Also, it is based on the power of personal relationships to close a sale. Which, again, sounds great, but only in practice for a variety of reasons. An infinite stream of monthly royalties can result from a few years of hard labor, hence the dream life etc.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDGGuPtakc)
The problem with this whole picture is that the industry has an incredibly bad reputation (undeserved in my opinion, at least the original source of this bad reputation is undeserved). Therefore, this bad reputation about "people losing money" is the very cause and the very reason why most people are actually losing money. Imagine friend A trying to recruit friend B based on some otherwise very legitimate business opportunity which happens to have a bad reputation attached to it. Friend B will tell friend A that this business is bullshit because he heard people were losing money with it. Friend B wont join Friend A's business. Friend A will try with friend C, but the result will be the same. Friend A's business will show net sales of Zero dollars and will eventually quit the business with rage inside him. Afterwards, Friend B and C will ask friend A if he made any money with it. "TOLD you SO" is their answer, mocking him. Acquaintance D who had originally successfully recruited friend A will see that his business is collapsing under him since friend A is quitting the business because he couldnt recruit his friends B and C and therefore is bring in zero money for himself. Friend A is no longer, or never has been, profitable for acquaintance D. Acquaintance D's business is also suffering because Friend E, who had also joined his business some time ago, is also quitting the business since he couldnt recruit his friends F and G since they told him "people were losing money in this business" because they interviewed friend A and his colleagues B and C about their experience.
I used to do this and i didnt make a dime. (i guess you can see why). Out of those who try, 99.7% wont make enough money to justify the time investment. Meaning its a profitable business for 0.3%. Thats 3 out of 1000 reps. Do i get these numbers out of my ass you may ask? No, for a period of about 2 years, i had access to a VP's online reporting tool. These numbers were based on a sample of roughly 20,000 representatives which was the amount of people he had in his network. 60 individuals made money out of 20,000. The dude in question made ~30,000 on a monthly basis at 25 years of age.
Now, for the record. People who claim that;
"If you get in on something new, close to the ground floor, you can make a shitpile of cash off of it, IF you put in some serious time & effort."
or; "The dudes are always the same: They make tons of money, but you never seem to see that in their clothes, home or lifestyle"
don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Basically, the only way to determine if you will make money with those things are;
1-You need to be an incredible salesman. If you're just an amazing salesman, don't do it. you need more than that, you need to be fucking incredible at convincing people. Both on the phone and face-to-face. 2- you need to dispose of a lot of time (kinda stupid since it so obvious) it serves as a main occupation. most of the time. also you can do it part-time early on, but its still many hours. 3- you need to have the most unshakable patience in the world and be prepared to hear the word pyramid a couple hundred times a day.
If you have these 3 attributes, i honestly suggest you go for it. you'll make loads of cash early in life, and if youre smart enough you won't ever again have to work a day in your life. how young the company is is not an important factor as long as the company is "decent" for a direct selling company. you just gotta be an insane salesman.
I'm sorry but Pyramid schemes are a scam, pure and simple. In any decent country the "successful" people end up in jail where they belong. The general population is not open to it because thankfully most people aren't braindead.
Of course the people trying to sell you on the idea will claim they are super successful. The problem is these people are scam artists, they make money by lying to enough people that eventually you come across people that fall for it.
Don't be one of those people.
A popular scam a few years ago was the "stock market genius". A person would mail out 10,000 letters in one month. Half of the letters would say stock in XXX is going to fall, the other half would say it is going to rise. Once that month is over, the stock in XXX ends up falling. The scam artist crosses the people off the list that he had sent letters to saying the stock would rise.
Month 2. The "genius" sends out another batch, this time 5,000. Half saying stock would rise, half saying stock would fall. Again he crosses out the ones that were wrong.
He keeps continuing this for several months before offering the remaining people that have been send correct information the whole time financial services. Those people fall for it, believing he really is a genius and sign up.
This is not the same as a Pyramid scheme but this is how those people think. When you see one of those "I make $30,000 a month for doing nothing" just think it through, it is just not sustainable. My advice is to just get a real job that deals with something tangible.
i don't know if great is how i'd describe something that pretty much receives condemnation from anyone from a brain. Great isn't what you call something that only a fraction of a percentage make profit, and that's off the backs of the people the scammed.
It's total bullshit.
actually bullshit is what it is...but only in reality. In theory, if the general population's brains were better adapted to analyze a business based only on its merits, and not based on rumors, this type of business would actually work very well. it would be easier to build a network, less people would drop out, more actual products would be sold etc, more people would make money, the success rate would be higher...etc...
unfortunately, this won't ever happen. (even with the recent crazy reputable endorsements, those business still carry a gigantically bad reputation.)
so OP, my advice to you is; join the business only if you wanna know how good a salesman you really are lol....
People here are severely uninformed about this issue here, (both on TL and in the general population). This whole industry is actually great in theory. The only problem is that in practice, it can't work because the general population is not open to it. Meaning; the underlying idea is great. The recruit can make infinitely more money than the recruiter while building a network in order to commercialize a product, or an ever expanding line of products or services. Also, it is based on the power of personal relationships to close a sale. Which, again, sounds great, but only in practice for a variety of reasons. An infinite stream of monthly royalties can result from a few years of hard labor, hence the dream life etc.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDGGuPtakc)
The problem with this whole picture is that the industry has an incredibly bad reputation (undeserved in my opinion, at least the original source of this bad reputation is undeserved). Therefore, this bad reputation about "people losing money" is the very cause and the very reason why most people are actually losing money. Imagine friend A trying to recruit friend B based on some otherwise very legitimate business opportunity which happens to have a bad reputation attached to it. Friend B will tell friend A that this business is bullshit because he heard people were losing money with it. Friend B wont join Friend A's business. Friend A will try with friend C, but the result will be the same. Friend A's business will show net sales of Zero dollars and will eventually quit the business with rage inside him. Afterwards, Friend B and C will ask friend A if he made any money with it. "TOLD you SO" is their answer, mocking him. Acquaintance D who had originally successfully recruited friend A will see that his business is collapsing under him since friend A is quitting the business because he couldnt recruit his friends B and C and therefore is bring in zero money for himself. Friend A is no longer, or never has been, profitable for acquaintance D. Acquaintance D's business is also suffering because Friend E, who had also joined his business some time ago, is also quitting the business since he couldnt recruit his friends F and G since they told him "people were losing money in this business" because they interviewed friend A and his colleagues B and C about their experience.
I used to do this and i didnt make a dime. (i guess you can see why). Out of those who try, 99.7% wont make enough money to justify the time investment. Meaning its a profitable business for 0.3%. Thats 3 out of 1000 reps. Do i get these numbers out of my ass you may ask? No, for a period of about 2 years, i had access to a VP's online reporting tool. These numbers were based on a sample of roughly 20,000 representatives which was the amount of people he had in his network. 60 individuals made money out of 20,000. The dude in question made ~30,000 on a monthly basis at 25 years of age.
Now, for the record. People who claim that;
"If you get in on something new, close to the ground floor, you can make a shitpile of cash off of it, IF you put in some serious time & effort."
or; "The dudes are always the same: They make tons of money, but you never seem to see that in their clothes, home or lifestyle"
don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Basically, the only way to determine if you will make money with those things are;
1-You need to be an incredible salesman. If you're just an amazing salesman, don't do it. you need more than that, you need to be fucking incredible at convincing people. Both on the phone and face-to-face. 2- you need to dispose of a lot of time (kinda stupid since it so obvious) it serves as a main occupation. most of the time. also you can do it part-time early on, but its still many hours. 3- you need to have the most unshakable patience in the world and be prepared to hear the word pyramid a couple hundred times a day.
If you have these 3 attributes, i honestly suggest you go for it. you'll make loads of cash early in life, and if youre smart enough you won't ever again have to work a day in your life. how young the company is is not an important factor as long as the company is "decent" for a direct selling company. you just gotta be an insane salesman.
OK, I misspoke slightly.
There are two ways to make money in a MLM company. You either work your fucking balls off, and sell an asspile of product(s) to everyone you can, and/or you work your fucking balls off recruiting people to join the company under you, whereby you get a % of their sales, and their recruit's sales, etc.
Unless you can get a huge number of people that are buying product from you (and I mean HUGE, depending on the "scam" sometimes your comission can be as low as 1-5% of gross) you won't make shit all in profit. The "real" money is in the residuals - building a giant fucking network of people working their balls off selling product(s) to everyone they know, and you get 1-5% of THEIR sales.
Of course, as intrudor said, there are VERY few people that make money - and yes, a huge reason for that is that almost everyone universally despises MLM. So not only do you need to build a giant pool of people under you, but you have to help them out, and constantly recruit people to replace the people you lose.
The problem is, you run out of people FAST. Most "successful" MLM people suggest that it takes a fairly constant stream of at LEAST 5 people under you, who have 5 people under them, etc...all selling a "reasonable amount" of product every month.
Imagine for a second San Diego. Current population: 1,359,132 (January 2010)
Lets say you're fucking brilliant, and you're the first person in SD that is in ACN (a telecommunications MLM). Now, lets make an assumption, and we'll say that ACN has a potential market share of 5%. That allows for ~68,000 potential customers in San Diego TOTAL that will sign up to ACN. Now, lets say that the average phone bill is $75 a month (for a landline I think that's high, but hey, lets be generous here). That's $5.1 Million a month in revenue. ACN pays at the top tier a max of 10%. So thats $510,000/month in "profit" available in San Diego, total.
Now, if you're the only ACN guy in SD AND you've gone through and actually signed up all 68,000 potential customers...GREAT. You're raking in $6M a year. Congratulations.
Except you're not. Because you're not in at the ground floor...you've just joined because your friend in SD convinced you to. And he has a recruiter, and his recruiter might even have a recruiter. And you're obviously not your friend's only recruit, nor are you his recruiter's only recruit.
So now you're target market is getting REALLY fragmented. And a huge number of the 68,000 people there that buy ACN's product have signed up as a reseller too, because they're promised money if they do it. So now, here we stand, 10 years after ACN hit San Diego, and there are 3 customers left for you, and nobody left for you to con into joining under you.
Now, if you are a sales GOD, you MIGHT be able to work your balls off, gain some market share, and make some money for yourself. Mabye. If you REALLY fucking work hard for it.
Or you could be the "lucky" bitch that comes in as the 2nd or 3rd guy in an area, work hard, and make a nice share of that $510,000 pool in SD.
And yeah buddy...tell me that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Please.
But bottom line...unless you're the best of the best, or unless you're almost the best of the best getting in at the beginning, you won't make shit all in relation to the effort required.
Samalie, you either have a distorted view of reality or you have a distorted way of explaining a simple concept by using examples.
Primo - an MLM company wouldn't focus only on one city or sell only 1 product or service. an MLM company company can have operations in a shitload of countries and offering a shitload of products or services. You describe a 5% potential market share as the upper limit but you took it out of your ass.
Secondo - "Getting in Early" is absolutely not a guarantee of success, and in most case, it will work against you because 1.nobody gives a fuck about new young companies or what they have to offer, and 2. there is zero infrastructure in place, meaning, there are no VP's around to give presentations for your potential recruits. Its better to get into an established company.
Terzo - It all comes down to how good of a salesman you are. period.
not that it matters, because we both agree that MLM sucks...so ...yeah..
i don't know if great is how i'd describe something that pretty much receives condemnation from anyone from a brain. Great isn't what you call something that only a fraction of a percentage make profit, and that's off the backs of the people the scammed.
It's total bullshit.
actually bullshit is what it is...but only in reality. In theory, if the general population's brains were better adapted to analyze a business based only on its merits, and not based on rumors, this type of business would actually work very well. it would be easier to build a network, less people would drop out, more actual products would be sold etc, more people would make money, the success rate would be higher...etc...
unfortunately, this won't ever happen. (even with the recent crazy reputable endorsements, those business still carry a gigantically bad reputation.)
so OP, my advice to you is; join the business only if you wanna know how good a salesman you really are lol....
you might hit a wall.... just sayin' GG! Owned.
If a theory doesn't work in practice, then it's a failed theory. The whole point of a theory is that it is meant to work in reality - otherwise, what's the point? Imagine saying "Darwin's ideas on evolution are fine in theory, but they don't work in reality..." Doesn't really scan, right?
I think a better way of phrasing what you are saying is: 'if we lived in magical land, and everyone had perfect information about business profits, while simultaneously forgetting that most pyramid schemes are scams, then pyramid schemes would be good" (though if people had that kind of information, I imagine most other businesses would also be much better and you'd be back to square one).
Profits aside, anything which encourages you to exploit your friends and family is something I think you should steer clear of.
If a theory doesn't work in practice, then it's a failed theory. The whole point of a theory is that it is meant to work in reality - otherwise, what's the point? Imagine saying "Darwin's ideas on evolution are fine in theory, but they don't work in reality..." Doesn't really scan, right?
I think a better way of phrasing what you are saying is: 'if we lived in magical land, and everyone had perfect information about business profits, while simultaneously forgetting that most pyramid schemes are scams, then pyramid schemes would be good" (though if people had that kind of information, I imagine most other businesses would also be much better and you'd be back to square one).
Profits aside, anything which encourages you to exploit your friends and family is something I think you should steer clear of.
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you're completely missing the point. You're starting with the idea that network marketing is a failed concept, even in its underlying theory. You seem to think that if the business and the overall industry is successful, (in the Utopian world that im describing), then the concept would still be about exploiting people. if people's minds are open enough to give direct marketing a legitimate chance, the success rate would be much higher, and it would rival those of other types of business such as restaurants and other small start-ups.
There's a fine line between those two processes;
New Concept A; Basic underlying logic is wrong. Therefore wrong in theory. Population rejects it. Result = Failure.
New Concept B; Basic underlying logic is correct. its underlying theory is correct but it requires the acceptance of an X-amount of people to support its sustainability. Population rejects it. Result = Failure.
"If a theory doesn't work in practice, then it's a failed theory." Okay so, in theory, uneducated people should'nt have bought indulgences during the 16th century. In practice, that didn't work. They bought shitloads of that worthless crap. Therefore it's a failed theory since it doesn't work in practice. We should dismiss the idea that "buying indulgences is wrong" since in practice, we observe the failure of this idea.
Can i just make a prediction? Whoever is trying to recruit the OP won't exactly be able to recruit him because i suppose OP has read this thread. and the would-be recruiter's business will soon collapse. hehe..tragic...but that's what will happen.
I think you're missing my point, and putting forward a theory with no evidence - which as far as I'm concerned, is not a theory. You should not need to divorce yourself from reality to make a theory.
Your 16th century example could be (probably) supported by the evidence that the uneducated people who didn't buy indulgences lived happier lives.
I don't see how you can establish that your basic underlying logic is correct. Furthermore, it seems to me that there would always be a problem with mixing commercialism with those closest to you. Even when lending money (interest free with no conditions of course) to my best friends, I've found things get unpleasant surprisingly fast.
So, your current idea isn't a theory...I guess it's a hypothesis or something.
On August 18 2010 13:42 intrudor wrote: Can i just make a prediction? Whoever is trying to recruit the OP won't exactly be able to recruit him because i suppose OP has read this thread. and the would-be recruiter's business will soon collapse. hehe..tragic...but that's what will happen.
No, it's not tragic. What would be tragic is if he was stupid enough to fall for it.
In a "utopian world" there would be no need for money and everyone would have what they want. There is no "utopian world" that will ever exist for "network marketing" (aka pyramid schemes).
I find it scary that you find pyramid schemes failing "tragic" yet you acknowledge the reason they fail is most people are at least smart enough to see they can't work.
i didnt tell you but im the dude who recruited the OP's would-be recruiter's recruiter. So im like 4 levels above him but my business stands to suffer if OP doesnt join the business
On August 18 2010 14:15 intrudor wrote: i didnt tell you but im the dude who recruited the OP's would-be recruiter's recruiter. So im like 4 levels above him but my business stands to suffer if OP doesnt join the business
Pulling the guilt card? Classy.
If you are telling the truth then you should be in jail.
Generally speaking, pyramid schemes don't actually sell anything except an idea. They want you to pay a sum of money to get involved, and then they encourage you to sell this same package to other people, and you will make a commission of the sales. So basically the people in the top prosper and make a healthy profit while the people in the bottom will find it hard to find enough people to sell to make back a profit and will usually end up losing money.
If you were really serious about going into this terrible type of business, you would start your own company. That way you are at the top and you will make a commission out of every single person who signs onto the company. But it's still such a sleazy was of making money, I don't think anyone with a bit of self respect goes into this industry. When I think of pyramid schemes I think of unsuccessful people with horrible personalities who can only see past their noses and dream of becoming rich quickly. They are usually also gamble.
My advice is to not even consider it. Go into a real industry or get an education that can actually land you a real job, not just a arts or business degree.
On August 18 2010 08:17 intrudor wrote: Samalie, you either have a distorted view of reality or you have a distorted way of explaining a simple concept by using examples.
Primo - an MLM company wouldn't focus only on one city or sell only 1 product or service. an MLM company company can have operations in a shitload of countries and offering a shitload of products or services. You describe a 5% potential market share as the upper limit but you took it out of your ass.
Secondo - "Getting in Early" is absolutely not a guarantee of success, and in most case, it will work against you because 1.nobody gives a fuck about new young companies or what they have to offer, and 2. there is zero infrastructure in place, meaning, there are no VP's around to give presentations for your potential recruits. Its better to get into an established company.
Terzo - It all comes down to how good of a salesman you are. period.
not that it matters, because we both agree that MLM sucks...so ...yeah..
intrudor:
Primo - A MLM company wouldn't focus on one city....but the average schmuck who thinks he's going to make money off it will exploit the relationships he has with people...which for MOST people will be within their general area. The example given was to show that in one city there is very little profit/year to go around to a large pool of people wanting to claim it. I could give a similar example using all the USA, or even the world, but I chose to look at just one city. The 5% market share...find me an example where any MLM product has more than a 5% market share compared against all of the same/similar product and I'll retract my statement, but I could find no example of a MLM company that has more than 5% market share. ACN was my example, and they are definetely below 5% market share vs the other telecommunication providers.
Secondo - I never suggested that "getting in early" meant guaranteed success. But if you are fucking brilliant at sales & amazing at recruting, the earlier you get in the "business" the more likely it is that the available pool of recruits and buyers isn't already diluted to the point that you can't make any "real" money anymore. If you're getting into a company that's too "established" (see Amway), your odds of success are dramatically lower because most of your theoretical market share already have reps that sell to them, and the pool of people to bring in under you can be all but exausted.
Bottom line...the world isn't a utopia, and as we seem to agree 99.99% of the people that get involved don't make a fucking dime off it...the few that get rich are the few that came up with the "scam" in the first place & ride the top of the pyramid.
And you're right - part of the reason that MLM is a fucking failure is the public perception of it. The problem is, the perception is right...MLM is usually worse than a traditional job. Sure, in both cases, you're working your fucking balls off to make someone else rich. The only difference between MLM & my 9-5 is at least at my job I'm guaranteed my salary at the end of the day...in MLM you'll be lucky if you can regain your initial "investment".
But keep the reality distortion field going...shit man, you could work for Apple
i don't know if great is how i'd describe something that pretty much receives condemnation from anyone from a brain. Great isn't what you call something that only a fraction of a percentage make profit, and that's off the backs of the people the scammed.
It's total bullshit.
actually bullshit is what it is...but only in reality. In theory, if the general population's brains were better adapted to analyze a business based only on its merits, and not based on rumors, this type of business would actually work very well. it would be easier to build a network, less people would drop out, more actual products would be sold etc, more people would make money, the success rate would be higher...etc...
unfortunately, this won't ever happen. (even with the recent crazy reputable endorsements, those business still carry a gigantically bad reputation.)
so OP, my advice to you is; join the business only if you wanna know how good a salesman you really are lol....
you might hit a wall.... just sayin' GG! Owned.
Yeah. Theory also means dick if it doesn't work in real life. Which it doesn't. And it's not that 'people don't understand the business'
it's because the system is designed to rape the people lower on the pyramid for the benefit of those up top.
If they had a valid investment with a really good innovative idea, they would be looking for a big Venture Capitalist, not for random misinformed people. Venture Capitalists are huge firms specialized in investing in new ideas, often investing billions of dollars on fresh start ups. If they had a good idea they would look for them, not for you.
Why are they looking for you instead of billionaire investors? Because Venture Capitalists are actually well informed and do a complete check on where they're putting they're money on. So they know that experienced investors wouldn't invest on them, so they look for random inexperienced citizens, like yourself.
Short version: only ever invest your money on credible companies with a long and safe history. Which should be true for any capital investment you ever make in your whole life.
On August 18 2010 21:19 Lucid90 wrote: My advice is to not even consider it. Go into a real industry or get an education that can actually land you a real job, not just a arts or business degree.
I'm already a graduate from one of the best (if not the best) schools here in the Philippines; so having an education isn't a problem for me. Also, I have already said that I'll just keep on playing them with a string then cut loose (tell them I'm not interested anymore) because I've found a different opportunity.
But what I now want to ask you about are companies that do use direct-sales systems as their distribution method i.e. no recruiting; they're open to anyone who wants to re-sell their product/s as a sales agent... now what do you think of those? Best examples I can think of right now is Tupperware and Avon.
I think if the products were that great they'd send them to you free (with return mailing free) and subtract your sales from your commissions. Why not just go to walmart or the Filipino equivalent, buy some water bottles and sell them? Or whatever.
A real company will provide its salesmen with the tools to make sales free of charge, that policy benefits everyone. Can you imagine a car salesman having to buy their cars before selling them? How about appliance salesmen? TV salesmen? etc.
Do you think medical device salesmen go to hospitals and doctor's conferences with pacemakers they bought? Do real estate agents buy the houses before they sell them (this is actually illegal in a lot of places)? Even alcohol salesmen don't have to buy their own liquor. That wouldn't make any sense at all.
What is this product that its so special and irreplaceable that you need to pay for the privelege of making someone else money? Why isn't their business model commission based?
I'm not about to have this agrument again on TL. PM me if you want my direct marketing experiences, but it was a definite success for me. If you think the product is sellable go for it. Just stay away from the stuff like what was on the "easy money" episode of this season of Penn & Teller Bullshit! (go look for it)
On August 19 2010 14:08 mikeymoo wrote: I'm not about to have this agrument again on TL. PM me if you want my direct marketing experiences, but it was a definite success for me. If you think the product is sellable go for it. Just stay away from the stuff like what was on the "easy money" episode of this season of Penn & Teller Bullshit! (go look for it)
Already watched that episode of Penn & Teller. Also, I'm already saying no to this one. Would like the PM too mikey, if you read this. :p
On August 18 2010 21:19 Lucid90 wrote: My advice is to not even consider it. Go into a real industry or get an education that can actually land you a real job, not just a arts or business degree.
I'm already a graduate from one of the best (if not the best) schools here in the Philippines; so having an education isn't a problem for me. Also, I have already said that I'll just keep on playing them with a string then cut loose (tell them I'm not interested anymore) because I've found a different opportunity.
If you're paying up front you're not winning by quitting a few weeks in...
On August 18 2010 21:19 Lucid90 wrote: My advice is to not even consider it. Go into a real industry or get an education that can actually land you a real job, not just a arts or business degree.
I'm already a graduate from one of the best (if not the best) schools here in the Philippines; so having an education isn't a problem for me. Also, I have already said that I'll just keep on playing them with a string then cut loose (tell them I'm not interested anymore) because I've found a different opportunity.
If you're paying up front you're not winning by quitting a few weeks in...
I'm just toying with their offers, being non-committal about even going into it. I've decided that focusing my energies on getting overwhelmed with interviews and whatnot is a better way to spend my time.
*disclaimer: I could ask for a tempban on my account to make sure I focus on that alone*
just get a white collar office job to start. pay doesnt have to be good, internship even. got to get your foot in the door, get more work experience on your resume, and hope for the best.
It IS possible to make money in these sort of schemes, but isn't fast, it isn't easy, and it isn't worth it. The only way to do it is to put tons of time and effort into it (like any job I guess) and you are starting out with a debt basically.
If you have Showtime (or want to rent/buy a DVD I guess) there is a decent episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit show that goes into this. I forget what season/episode though.
like all things in life. you gotta get down to the nitty gritty and sell your ass off. recruit and sell, recruit and sell. thats the only way to make it. if you like to sit in front of the pc and fuck around, then direct marketing is not for you. find a good product to pitch and go SELL IT!
Or you could join a legit company and become a salesman without having to cough up nearly a week's paycheck for shit that any legit place would give you...
On August 21 2010 02:54 itzme_petey wrote: like all things in life. you gotta get down to the nitty gritty and sell your ass off. recruit and sell, recruit and sell. thats the only way to make it. if you like to sit in front of the pc and fuck around, then direct marketing is not for you. find a good product to pitch and go SELL IT!
Dude, the odds of making any decent money in direct marketing are about 0.3% Even if you "get off your PC, and try to recruit and sell the best product in the world in the best direct marketing company in the world", the odds are just against you. its NOT a realistic career. People will give you just about any goddamn reason why they DONT wanna be recruited in your business, and potential customers will be almost as hard to get. it just doesnt make any sense to invest even just 1 hour in direct marketing unless youre genetically amongst the top 1% salesmen in your country. it just doesnt work. The second you get on the phone with a friend or someone you barely know, and you try to invite them to a meeting to get them in the business, the conversation turns negative and sour after about 3.5 seconds. People are just against the idea. Whatever you say, you dont stand a fuckin' chance. GG
On top of that, you gotta lie on a daily basis. Lying to people about how they have a chance at making it and how they're as good salesmen as you are, and lying about how they best thing for them is to continue trying to recruit and sell. i had 65 reps under me and they all quit because i wasn't making any money and they weren't making any money. Nobody had more than 10 personal customers, and pretty much none of my friends and none of their friends wanted to do it. it was like each rep had 1 friend out of 35 who said yes about joining. but nobody had more than 2 personal recruits. . nobody makes money unless your rep count is in the thousands. and thats beyond impossible for 99.7% of would-be salespeople in this world.
IT DOES NOT WORK.
Doesnt Dont Not Working Failure. Never will Never did.
EPT
So it's not exactly a good option to even cashier or gas boy here (they take HIGH SCHOOL graduates for those for chrissakes)
GG! Owned.![[image loading]](http://personal.maths.surrey.ac.uk/st/H.Bruin/image/pyramid.jpg)
