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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I've been meaning to write this for a long time now
Blizzard reads TL so I hope they will read this. As a Starcraft fan (both BW and SC2) I would love to see both games succeed. Obviously blizzard won't change anything even if they read my post but I just had to get this out
There are alot of questions on about whether or not the success of SC2 is large in Korea, or whether or not GSL or any other huge Tournament is huge in Korea.
As a TL member living in Korea I want to tell you all the tragic story of SC2 and how Blizzard is losing such a great opportunity.
SC2 in Korea, how big is it?
I'll say it straight up; Korea does not find SC2 interesting or even appealing. To explain how much they don't care, SC2 is losing to a fake ass Counter Strike copy called 'Sudden Attack'. But why? How can the successor to Starcraft Brood War not be hitting #1 charts in Korea? There are a few MANY reasons why SC2 is failing so hard.
Numero Uno” : Blizzard's bad decision
As some of you know SC2 PR in Korea is huge. If you go to central seoul, almost every electronic billboard has their own “SC2” time. There are posters everywhere and every single bus has a huge SC2 logo painted onto it. Blizzard seems like they just flew a plane straight through seoul and bombarded seoul with SC2 Stickers. Blizzard is just all-inning PR in Korea in hopes of getting it through people. I guarantee you if Blizzard did this to any other country in the world, everyone would buy it. But not Korea... Why?
Blizzard does NOT understand how large of an impact Kespa has over the Korean community. Blizzard's split between Kespa was their first biggest mistake. Look I know how we all hate Kespa for being stupid and all, but seriously guys? Starcraft is ONLY 10 years old. For a sport to have such a pillar like Kespa is an amazing feat. Deny all you want, but Kespa knows how to do their job. Every sport has their sacrifices, don't be a 12 year old ragging idiot to not admit to this. Kespa has run the SC scene for 10 years, and yes there were some hiccups, but overall it went smoothly. For a company who made a sprite based RTS into an Esport, you have to give these guys credit.
So Blizzard pisses Kespa off and now they're partnering with GOMTV... Haha...
Hey remember when Atari made the Jaguar to compete with Super Nintendo and the Sega Genesis? GOMTV is the Atari Jaguar of Korea, they suck and I'm sorry if you feel bad about it.
Number Two” : The PR that goes nowhere
As I said in Numero Uno, the PR is huge in Korea. But if it's so large, why isn't it popular? I'll draw a comic for you guys because it's better explained with a picture than words.
Blizzard may have gotten the internet journalists, buildings and even the streets of Korea filled with SC2, but they failed to acquire the most important one of them all; television.
Believe it or not folks, GOMTV is not actually a TV
Number Three” : ”What? I have to buy a goddamn computer?!”
Some of you might not know, Koreans are one of the most computer illiterate people on Earth. One of the other reasons why SC Brood War was able to succeed was because it could literally run on any goddamn computer. Seriously, I ran SC BW on my fucking pentium 2, that's saying something.
Koreans, being asian (hurr hurr) live in a strict and contained environment from their parents (most do, not all). Now imagine you being a 16 year old Korean, you want to play SC2 but your once in a lifetime college exam which will dictate how you will live for the rest of your lives is coming up and you can't asking your mom for money to play 'games' and you can't go out and get a job because you'll fail your tests. All you have is this shitty ass dell clone laptop made in Korea; what can you do?
Okay how about this, you're a College student in Korea, you finally have free time haha wait nevermind you don't have free time either. You're going through rigorous Korean education which seems to go nowhere and in a couple of months you're going to get conscripted to the Army. The money you earn from your 'job' all goes to your College funds and in the end you're living a shittastic life. “Hey Americans get Student Discount? … Wait, what's a student discount?” Shit man Koreans don't even know what that word means. So where can they buy a computer? Oh right their parents can buy him one. Sure some dudes will get money from their parents, but what about the ones who don't?
Starcraft 2 is just not as accessible as it was compared to BW. Let's be honest, who the fuck wants to play games in Low Quality textures? Sure I had to play in Low Quality but that's because my computer sucks and can't even run fucking WoW properly.
I'm not trying to criticize Blizzard for having 'superior' graphics. Blizzard did a great job with graphics, it's just that the majority of Koreans weren't (still aren't) prepared for it.
Number Four” : ”GOMTV > Kespa/OGN/MBC... Seriously Blizzard?”
I'm going to just say this straight up GOMTV sucks. They're bad, they know how to run tourneys just as much as Blizzard knows how to not fuck up.
Some GOMtv Fanboy: BUT MISTERHOON THAT PRIZEPOOL IS $500,000!!!!!!!!!
So more money = better? By that logic GOM Classic would've overthrown OGN and MBCgame long ago.
The only reason why GOM Classic was so good was because Tasteless is a fucking baller who made the whole thing fun. But enough of that, let's talk about why GOMTV sucks.
1) Nobody cares about GOMTV in Korea Gomtv is just as popular as Tom Greens show after he got washed up. I know GOMtv is doing their best to make esports work but nobody can deny that they just suck. But what's so bad about them? What makes them so unappealing to Koreans?
2) The Korean Commentators for GOMTV are terrible. Like, Dane Cook Bad. The Korean Commentators are just brutal to your ears. You guys are fortunate you don't have to listen to that crap but they just made the whole series unbearable.
As most of you know in Korea, Commentators is what saves the game at times. Actually hell man, in every sport commentators is what makes the game so much more bearable. The GOMTV commentators just doesn't cut it. Yes I know some of the Commentators of GOMTV were EX-OGN commentators. But think about it, if they were good, they wouldn't be EX-OGN Commentators would they?
They are bland, they have no character, and the woman commentator has the most nasally voice ever which is a turnoff.
So basically Blizzard partnered with a company who has lots of money but nobody watches...
I know blizzard already is Activision's little bitch but at this point I don't think it would hurt to have another pimp (kespa).
Number Five” : Everyone in Korea are casual gamers.
Most of you new guys come from kotaku, destructoid, gamefaqs, ign, gametrailers, something awful and hell even 4chan. But one of the most common misconceptions foreign gamers have about Korean gamers is that “Koreans are all Hardcore players”
This is false in every way possible. Gaming in Korea is not a hobby, but a culture. People in Korea play games to relieve stress because they already drink and smoke a lot. Many people in Korea play games to enjoy not win. What Blizzard is doing is shoving ESPORTS down Korea (and everywhere else)'s throat not gaming.
The order should not be Esport → Everyone get's all competitive → Even my mom plays SC2!
NO! It should be the other fucking way around
Even my mom plays SC2! → Everyone get's all competitive → ESPORTSSSSSSSSS
When Blizzard said they were aiming for Esports, I knew this game wouldn't do AS well. How can a game be A+++++++ BW quality when they aim for Esports instead of game quality?
When you go to Korea and tell a bunch of casual gamers who played games for fun that 'this is the best new competitive game ever and your blood will boil', who the fuck would buy it?
Number Six” : Lan Cafe
Scenario 1
Friend 1: Hey dude you wanna play SC2? I heard it's pretty sweet Friend 2: Oh cool let's check it out man Friend 1: oh you need a battle.net account to play Friend 2: uhh okay np man Friend 1: Also you need to register using your Korean Social Security Number and your phone to activate your account Friend 2: No worries I have both Friend 1: Yeah and since we can't play on Lan we have to go to battlenet Friend 2: Oh okay it's cool man Friend 3: HEY GUYS I LEFT MY SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER AT HOME Friend 1: Aww really? Oh well let's play some Brood War Friend 2: WOOHOO
This is just 6 of the many failures of Blizzard in Korea. They could've done so so much more but instead they decided to be so 'all knowing' about Korea and fucked up big.
But you know what? Why should Blizzard care about Korea? I know this sounds cold but there isn't any reason blizzard should care about about Korea. Sure Korea made SC awesome and godlike but Blizzard doesn't give a damn since they earn money from WoW anyways.
I'll try doing a better writeup later, but for now I hope these answer most of your questions
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5003 Posts
lol this is so much better than driving the point home than what i have so far
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Cool, I hope Blizzard reads this.
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United States1719 Posts
dont most ppl have their social security number memorized though? I have mine, my sister's, both my parents', my grampas and my friend's mom's who used to pay me to tutor her son english
agree with everything else, it seems not many pc bangs are picking it up either
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Hoon i love your artwork. 10/5 would read again.
In all seriousness though they're all good points. blizzard is a dumb company recently :|
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Ah so that's what is really happening in Korea right now - in other words, just as expected. Good read, good post. (No lie that image is what I felt... for a few minutes then I shifted to the bottom one, minus the tv) (And if I can't take it - I play the beta for a bit then the euphoria/craving dies down)
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Interesting stuff. Anything positive coming out of this debacle?
What are your opinions on the words of Oh Joo Yang in the "The Philosophy of the GSL" article?
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I sincerely approve of this. IMO Blizz doesn't have a marketing pulse about Korea and should listen more to the people on the ground. Almost every gaming company SHOULD, anyway.
Edit: Oh well what would you expect from Hacktivi$ion.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:35 rotinegg wrote: dont most ppl have their social security number memorized though? I have mine, my sister's, both my parents', my grampas and my friend's mom's who used to pay me to tutor her son english
agree with everything else, it seems not many pc bangs are picking it up either it's more 50% coinflip~
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Wow, thanks MrHoon. For the past while all I've heard is "SCII is not good in Korea because people don't want to pay to use PCBangs" to play. This is way, way better.
Luckily I play BW.
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hmmm I'm not sure you got the point across. I think pictures in the same style are in order..
JK interesting read regarding the GOMTV hate.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I've read a few economic/anthro papers on the 'starcraft phenomenon' in Korea and they all point toward BW exploding because it was cheap, and ran on basically anything (which meant it was in every single cafe regardless of quality) so that part makes sense.
One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
Now, thats not necessarily event relevant to your point, because it only targets the competitive gamers who are into the scene anyway. As you said, it needs to be a movement that starts with the casual gamers (I agree). But what it does mean is gamers looking to make a splash are going to choose SC over other games, if you're good at an RTS why would you try to grind into a proteam that pays nothing if GOM has open tournaments that have real checks? Time will tell but I think its much more uncertain than it looks from your perspective.
Awesome writeup, great place to get some discussion!
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StarCraft didn't pick up in Korea immediately, either, it got started in North America first (obviously hardly to the extent that we currently see in Korea). The main mistake Blizzard can make is trying to push it too far, too early, so people dismiss it before letting it develop.
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10387 Posts
Haha looks like Blizzard paid the big bucks to all the wrong people
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your assuming quite a bit. but i think you are right on the kespa dealio.
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I can't help but feel like #2 is one of the biggest reasons. Also, apparently korean commentators for gom are terrible...which is sad for us :[.
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On August 08 2010 15:42 OneFierceZealot wrote: your assuming quite a bit. but i think you are right on the kespa dealio.
Yeah I think they should of kept kespa. Thats a huge back stab to their 10 year old partner.
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I agree with most of your points here, and they are very wellwritten. The only thing I would object is that GOM for us foreigners really isnt all that bad. I remember following proscene for a bit, and I got really psyched when they finally had a tournement with english casters, that was really great, atleast for me personally. Now I hope and believe that GOM will follow in that path, and include English commentary to the matches, something that im not sure that OGN/MSL would do.
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You are the freaking man! Very well put. Unfortunately your totally right, why should blizz care if they have WoW. Oh and awesome pics :D
@heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America.
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is there anythign blizzard can do to fix this? so far it seems like blizzard knows they sold out, and after a few months of selling the game to casuals in north amercia, they are going to get chatrooms and ect rollin
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10387 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:45 Chanted wrote: I agree with most of your points here, and they are very wellwritten. The only thing I would object is that GOM for us foreigners really isnt all that bad. I remember following proscene for a bit, and I got really psyched when they finally had a tournement with english casters, that was really great, atleast for me personally. Now I hope and believe that GOM will follow in that path, and include English commentary to the matches, something that im not sure that OGN/MSL would do. Seems like you need to improve your reading comprehension, since he said GOM sucked for Koreans, while it was awesome for foreigners because of Tasteless. And to be honest, I thought the commentary got worse with every season.
On August 08 2010 15:48 jodogohoo wrote: is there anythign blizzard can do to fix this? so far it seems like blizzard knows they sold out, and after a few months of selling the game to casuals in north amercia, they are going to get chatrooms and ect rollin add LAN and get rid of that stupid subscription fee they charge at PC Bangs. Won't solve the problem completely, but it'll do some good.
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Thanks you, MrHoon, nice write-up
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Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things
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On August 08 2010 15:54 Boonbag wrote: Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things the pictures. You can't bash someone with that much artistic talent
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51138 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
I disagree. The prime example of this theory of pumping money into a sport and hoping it would work is the CGS. Most of us know what happened after that.
I fear this GOM 'rebellion' will see a Korean version of the CGS fiasco all over again.
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The Blizzard from 12 years ago was very different from the one we have today, and the same can be said about BW and SC2. The company that brought us Diablo, SC and the pre-WoW Warcraft is long gone.
I agree, Blizzard should have been focused into making a good game first, instead of all that e-sport crap we have now.
I just hope that Blizzard can make SC2 in something more than a tool to make more money and a tool for people trying to make SC2 a way of living (those aspiring "progamers"). I like SC2, I really do (hell, I even bought the game but my crappy laptop can't even play it without lagging like crazy), but as a BW fan, it's just not the same feeling i get when i watch a SC2 match, i get bored so easily.
All in all, the odds of SC2 becoming a good game, and a worthy succesor to BW seem bad .
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B-b-but I love Dane Cook D:
+ Show Spoiler +pretty solid reasoning though. cant help but agree
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Katowice25012 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:46 Chimpalimp wrote: @heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America.
Can you point out some examples? People have this notion that "outside of capitalist pig america people do things for fun and not money" but I've never seen evidence of it being true. Europe doesn't have good American Football players because they can play soccer and get paid. If you were in Russia in 1980 you played chess because the state gave you money if you became good.
Two baseball players were recently drafted from India. They had never played baseball in their life, they became pitchers because they had spent their lives honing javelin throwing skills and it turns out you can also use that motion to throw a baseball fast enough to get a signing bonus.
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This is a great writeup... I honestly thought the decisions Blizzard made regarding kespa in korea were a mistake, but I had NO IDEA how bad it was. This was really helpful in understanding what's going on there. I think blizzard is putting so much into korea because their culture actually has progaming on a level greater than anywhere else in the world.
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Though I hate to see it not immediately take off in korea, I'm not suprised. Anyone anywhere will resist something so forced I also agree with the sentiments that korea isn't the center of the universe. Furthermore, I support US IP Laws feel kespa has overstepped it's necessity.
I also feel like we have a few years before the official verdict is out. Gom is looking for a TV channel, Blizzard is gonna work on bnet's community features, a couple years of balance and metagame development. It's not close to "over" yet.
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MrHoon, you fucking nailed it. Being a Korean and having the first person view of what's going on in Korea, I can vouch for 99% of this post. But you probably didn't need that because of your name.
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On August 08 2010 15:59 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
I disagree. The prime example of this theory of pumping money into a sport and hoping it would work is the CGS. Most of us know what happened after that. I fear this GOM 'rebellion' will see a Korean version of the CGS fiasco all over again.
Erm...What is CGS?
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Really good read, not partnering up with OGN/MBC was a huge mistake and they seem to have basically thrown away $30 million in advertising. #5 is so true. The vast majority of Koreans are Hunters players and the focus on competition and esports is just the wrong way to go about it.
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Kurucho!!! I think GomTV is more a foreign a-like TV, not a Korean, anyway, if Korea doesn't care about the money, all the Foreigners do, so whats the problem? make korea the host of a world huge price tour.
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Ahh excellent writeup. Thanks for clearing the situation up. Well i'm kinda glad that sc2 is a flop in korea. that means the pro bw scene will be alive and well ^^ . playing sc2 while being able to watch great sc:bw is the best combo ever!
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This will be awkward if SC2 will be as big as it sounds before everyone started reading this blog, but goddamn you have good points here which might be so true in the long run.
Great read man, great read!
and oh yeah, you are totally right about that commentator chick, horrible voice but god i could watch her instead. :O
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Interesting read, it really was bizzare to me that it was 'failing' (im sure its still doing quite well in reality, just not ridiculously wtf well like we expected) given all the advertising etc blizzard paid for.
Really hoping it increases in popularity soon.
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United States13896 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:57 Qwerty. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:54 Boonbag wrote: Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things Because you don't live in Korea and lack the first-hand experience and knowledge to be a credible source of ESPORTS news. Take a second of your life and read his blog. Educate yourself before making asinine statements like this.
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I don't think Koreans would have trouble remembering their own SSN, but the lack of LAN play definitely takes things for the worse.
Number 5 hits the gold in my opinion.
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On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote:
One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
Comparing SC2/BW to Soccer/other sports in America is a false analogy. The biggest difference is that SC2 is new, and no one knows if people will enjoy watching it. With soccer, there's no money in America because no one watches it. Football pays big because people watch it. The large amount of money being pumped into SC2 is an investment, because if people don't end up watching it, advertisers won't be happy, and there won't be money for it in the future.
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On August 08 2010 16:06 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:46 Chimpalimp wrote: @heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America. Can you point out some examples? People have this notion that "outside of capitalist pig america people do things for fun and not money" but I've never seen evidence of it being true. Europe doesn't have good American Football players because they can play soccer and get paid. If you were in Russia in 1980 you played chess because the state gave you money if you became good. Two baseball players were recently drafted from India. They had never played baseball in their life, they became pitchers because they had spent their lives honing javelin throwing skills and it turns out you can also use that motion to throw a baseball fast enough to get a signing bonus.
Bigger prizes = bigger entertainment? Uh... no? When I'm watching OSL, i'm not thinking about the 1st place prize money at all... I'm just watching an interesting game with interesting commentary and being entertained through that. If money is a great attracting attribute, why not just televise 20 minutes of money flying everywhere?
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On August 08 2010 15:41 ArvickHero wrote: Haha looks like Blizzard paid the big bucks to all the wrong people
other way around blizz sold out for the big bucks coming from the wrong ppl
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:57 Qwerty. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:54 Boonbag wrote: Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things Because you don't live in Korea and lack the first-hand experience and knowledge to be a credible source of ESPORTS news. You need to check yourself, before you wreck yourself.
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10387 Posts
On August 08 2010 16:15 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:59 GTR wrote:On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
I disagree. The prime example of this theory of pumping money into a sport and hoping it would work is the CGS. Most of us know what happened after that. I fear this GOM 'rebellion' will see a Korean version of the CGS fiasco all over again. Erm...What is CGS? I too would like to know what CGS is.. Google isn't that much of a help :s
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On August 08 2010 16:33 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 16:15 Mortician wrote:On August 08 2010 15:59 GTR wrote:On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
I disagree. The prime example of this theory of pumping money into a sport and hoping it would work is the CGS. Most of us know what happened after that. I fear this GOM 'rebellion' will see a Korean version of the CGS fiasco all over again. Erm...What is CGS? I too would like to know what CGS is.. Google isn't that much of a help :s
Im guessing this
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On August 08 2010 16:32 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 16:06 heyoka wrote:On August 08 2010 15:46 Chimpalimp wrote: @heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America. Can you point out some examples? People have this notion that "outside of capitalist pig america people do things for fun and not money" but I've never seen evidence of it being true. Europe doesn't have good American Football players because they can play soccer and get paid. If you were in Russia in 1980 you played chess because the state gave you money if you became good. Two baseball players were recently drafted from India. They had never played baseball in their life, they became pitchers because they had spent their lives honing javelin throwing skills and it turns out you can also use that motion to throw a baseball fast enough to get a signing bonus. Bigger prizes = bigger entertainment? Uh... no? When I'm watching OSL, i'm not thinking about the 1st place prize money at all... I'm just watching an interesting game with interesting commentary and being entertained through that. If money is a great attracting attribute, why not just televise 20 minutes of money flying everywhere?
this isnt even the issue, the money in the prize pool might draw in ppl to compete, but at the end of the day gom isnt tv channel and will not garner the popularity it needs from its limited audience
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On August 08 2010 16:33 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:57 Qwerty. wrote:On August 08 2010 15:54 Boonbag wrote: Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things Because you don't live in Korea and lack the first-hand experience and knowledge to be a credible source of ESPORTS news. You need to check yourself, before you wreck yourself. I wrote this just for u mang JUST FOR U MANG
haha naw I finally got it done after ranting on IRC so much lol
About the KSSN, yes people have it memorized but some dont. Although the KSSN issue isnt as big it sometimes serves as a huge issue during 'lan' games
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On August 08 2010 15:43 darklordjac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:42 OneFierceZealot wrote: your assuming quite a bit. but i think you are right on the kespa dealio. Yeah I think they should of kept kespa. Thats a huge back stab to their 10 year old partner. kespa cooperated with blizzard even once in their 10 years? news to me. only interaction i remember pre-sc2 is GSL4 (or lack therof).On August 08 2010 15:41 Incanus wrote: StarCraft didn't pick up in Korea immediately, either, it got started in North America first (obviously hardly to the extent that we currently see in Korea). The main mistake Blizzard can make is trying to push it too far, too early, so people dismiss it before letting it develop. but sc2 isn't a random game nobody knew about. it's the sequel to korea's flagship ESPORTS game. and most of the points mrhoon made aren't really things that'll be efficiently and effectively be "healed over time".
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I like how you phrased that the new comers here are from general gaming forums.
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Excellent points Mr.Hoon.
...they must explain a big part of the picture....but then again....the major driving force behind a particular game's inherent success or failure is; the Gameplay.
Gameplay is king. Let's face it ....Starcraft 2's actual GAME is just not as fun as its glorious predecessor, and that explains the state of things in Korea right now. If SC2's gameplay was as glorious as SC:BW, believe me, all the reasons you listed would have been insignificant.
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On August 08 2010 15:46 Chimpalimp wrote: @heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America.
Koreans do follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. A recent example would be Saviour and the other Korean progamers caught in the match fixing scandal. They know that match fixing is immoral and illegal, but took the risk regardless to earn a little extra money. With that greed, imagine the mid-tier, underpaid, or ex-Korean progamers who will flock to GOM's bigger prize pool tournaments who cater more to individual gains.
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Thank you for your insight, interesting read.
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after reading your post, op, i decided that as soon as this post i'm writing now is done i will go grab my starcraft cd from 2001 and my brood war cd from 2008 and re-install them.
to be honest i was getting kind of sick of sc2. maybe its just all of the beta stuff and the fact that my map got stolen and made it all the way up to the #2 slot with my name replaced by some jackass who did nothing but make turrets do double the damage to make the game super fucking easy GOD I HATE THAT GUY SOO MUCH
anyway brb installing bw
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Katowice25012 Posts
On August 08 2010 16:32 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 16:06 heyoka wrote:On August 08 2010 15:46 Chimpalimp wrote: @heyoka Your whole argument seems to based solely on the perception that Koreans will follow the capitalistic notion to go where the money is. Which isn't always true, especially in countries that are not America. Can you point out some examples? People have this notion that "outside of capitalist pig america people do things for fun and not money" but I've never seen evidence of it being true. Europe doesn't have good American Football players because they can play soccer and get paid. If you were in Russia in 1980 you played chess because the state gave you money if you became good. Two baseball players were recently drafted from India. They had never played baseball in their life, they became pitchers because they had spent their lives honing javelin throwing skills and it turns out you can also use that motion to throw a baseball fast enough to get a signing bonus. Bigger prizes = bigger entertainment? Uh... no? When I'm watching OSL, i'm not thinking about the 1st place prize money at all... I'm just watching an interesting game with interesting commentary and being entertained through that. If money is a great attracting attribute, why not just televise 20 minutes of money flying everywhere?
Bigger prizes = bigger entertainment, yes. People in America watch World Cup once every 4 years until we are eliminated.
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SC2 in Korea will succeed. Give it time, BW didn't start rolling until a couple of years after. People are used to BW right now, playing BW leaves them in their comfort zone, in time more and more will switch to SC2 especially since GOM/Blizzard sounds willing to invest a shitload of money for tournaments and pull PR.
Once you'll see Boxer playing SC2 in a great tournament (which i believe it will happen) things are going to change. Blizz/GOM needs to pay some great players, legends like GARIMTO, Boxer, Yellow, rA to play SC2 and stream it through GOM or whatever channel they can through, as they may hold a lot of influence power.
Blizzard wasn't the only one to mistake in relation with Kespa. Kepsa fucked up too, practically they both fucked up trying to pull their bigger share.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Good stuff Hoony. Thanks for the reality check on the state of affairs.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:57 Qwerty. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 15:54 Boonbag wrote: Awesome. Also why do I get bashed each time I try to say the exact same things Because you don't live in Korea and lack the first-hand experience and knowledge to be a credible source of ESPORTS news. o.o
Boonbag is pretty legit. Read his blogs, they're great.
EDIT: Ok, I'm slow.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 08 2010 16:43 intrudor wrote: Excellent points Mr.Hoon.
...they must explain a big part of the picture....but then again....the major driving force behind a particular game's inherent success or failure is; the Gameplay.
Gameplay is king. Let's face it ....Starcraft 2's actual GAME is just not as fun as its glorious predecessor, and that explains the state of things in Korea right now. If SC2's gameplay was as glorious as SC:BW, believe me, all the reasons you listed would have been insignificant. False.
Sudden Attack does far better in Korea than 1.6.
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idc if koreans play or not, from what i have seen they have been over hyped. The 'foreign' scene is doing pretty for themselves its not like having 40 more people spending 7+ hours a day is going to make the game better to watch for me
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Good points Mr.Hoon.
However, I think it's to early to tell yet if its a success or not. I'm willing to give GOMTV a chance. And after that we can start bashing the channel. After all, its a whole new game.
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Well, that certainly explains a lot and sheds light on the subject O.O. Awesome article!
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To be honest, this is the work of Activision...
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Blizzard and KESPA have long standing bad blood that couldn't be fixed, Blizzard stayed that they disliked KESPA recieving royalties for televised games while Blizzard did not, this was not a situation that was going to end well for KESPA or Blizzard but was pretty much decided by a few actions in the past.
Starcraft 2 simply isn't demanding on hardware at all and is well within expected hardware of just about any computer made in the last maybe 4 years. If that's how out of date the average Korean's computer is then they can barely run modern operating systems, that can't be faulted by Blizzard at all.
I don't see how 'e-sports' are being put too far ahead of other elements. They have a league system but it obviously varies in skill greatly, custom maps and single player. Only one of those 'segments' of the game could be considered esports and even then only because of a league system that's supposed to match you against your equals.
Also, the argument that somehow driving for an esports following somehow took away from the gameplay isn't supported at all
A lot of the points of this article can easily be viewed as unjustified criticisms of Blizzard, a lot of the arguments can't really be addressed by Blizzard(loyalty to a national organization that has a history of doing things that Blizzard can't accept, computer hardware being out of date, and perceptions of the nature of the game that I'm not sure how many could assume because there's no real basis in fact for the esports over gameplay argument)
The LAN argument is the strongest but Blizzard has still attempted to reach out to the LAN community as much as possible(beta access, etc) but if that one thing could change it all then there would be a flaw in marketing any new game to Korean consumers that had a high production cost in that case
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Numero Uno” : Blizzard's bad decision
As some of you know SC2 PR in Korea is huge. If you go to central seoul, almost every electronic billboard has their own “SC2” time. There are posters everywhere and every single bus has a huge SC2 logo painted onto it. Blizzard seems like they just flew a plane straight through seoul and bombarded seoul with SC2 Stickers. Blizzard is just all-inning PR in Korea in hopes of getting it through people. I guarantee you if Blizzard did this to any other country in the world, everyone would buy it. But not Korea... Why?
Blizzard does NOT understand how large of an impact Kespa has over the Korean community. Blizzard's split between Kespa was their first biggest mistake. Look I know how we all hate Kespa for being stupid and all, but seriously guys? Starcraft is ONLY 10 years old. For a sport to have such a pillar like Kespa is an amazing feat. Deny all you want, but Kespa knows how to do their job. Every sport has their sacrifices, don't be a 12 year old ragging idiot to not admit to this. Kespa has run the SC scene for 10 years, and yes there were some hiccups, but overall it went smoothly. For a company who made a sprite based RTS into an Esport, you have to give these guys credit.
So Blizzard pisses Kespa off and now they're partnering with GOMTV... Haha...
Hey remember when Atari made the Jaguar to compete with Super Nintendo and the Sega Genesis? GOMTV is the Atari Jaguar of Korea, they suck and I'm sorry if you feel bad about it.
To say it like that is simplifying a complicated evolution. Starcraft got big in Korea due to all the hardcore gamers playing SC who then turned into pro-gamers and fans. Kespa as an entity merely were the ones who stepped in and rode the tidal wave into being main stream. To thank KESPA for making pro-gaming is kinda a joke because they were only a small peice of a big puzzle. There had to be someone to do what KESPA did, so yeah they were smart and deserve some credit for taking the scene by the reigns persay, but to say KESPA knows how to do their job is ludacris.
The reality is KESPA is ran by a bunch of stubborn idiots who really have no idea what they are doing. If they knew what they were doing they would have dealt with Blizzard a long time ago and not do stupid things like setup meetings with Blizzard to discuss issues then just completely stand up the CEO when he arrived in Korea, or make absurd demands. There is ALOT more to the backstory of KESPA/Blizzard relations that no one knows about.
None of the casual fans (people who could possibly buy SC2 and who watch/play SC1) care or even know about KESPA much, if at all.
The problem Blizzard has with KESPA is of course OGN/MBC/Pro-teams. If Blizzard had that portal to advertise through at the moment obviously success would be huge. Obviously if Blizzard didn't take the necessary steps to negotiate to KESPA's demands to get these portals there is something much bigger going on than people realize, and Blizzard has their reasons for it.
The order should not be Esport → Everyone get's all competitive → Even my mom plays SC2!
NO! It should be the other fucking way around
Even my mom plays SC2! → Everyone get's all competitive → ESPORTSSSSSSSSS
Yeah, you're kinda right, but I think Blizzard realizes it doesn't really matter. While Blizzard's advertising in Korea seems to suggest they are trying to sell it like a new movie box-office opening weekend, which is dumb, there is more at play.
First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Also, SC2/GOMTV will be huge, whether you like their commentators or not. And most importantly, SC2 Esports will be huge outside of Korea 100%...this is the game that everyone has been waiting for to make an esport. If it becomes huge outside of Korea that means more big korean companies will want to get involved and the game will eventually become mainstream as it creeps into Korea. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2.
The possibilies are endless for Blizzard in the world/korea market of ESPORTS, while for KESPA all they have left are alliances with the current SC1 ESPORTS world which certainly won't last forever.
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Good article, but I gotta say this.
Most koreans I've talked to says the game sucks.
I don't think it gets any more complicated than that.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On August 08 2010 17:19 Rekrul wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Numero Uno” : Blizzard's bad decision
As some of you know SC2 PR in Korea is huge. If you go to central seoul, almost every electronic billboard has their own “SC2” time. There are posters everywhere and every single bus has a huge SC2 logo painted onto it. Blizzard seems like they just flew a plane straight through seoul and bombarded seoul with SC2 Stickers. Blizzard is just all-inning PR in Korea in hopes of getting it through people. I guarantee you if Blizzard did this to any other country in the world, everyone would buy it. But not Korea... Why?
Blizzard does NOT understand how large of an impact Kespa has over the Korean community. Blizzard's split between Kespa was their first biggest mistake. Look I know how we all hate Kespa for being stupid and all, but seriously guys? Starcraft is ONLY 10 years old. For a sport to have such a pillar like Kespa is an amazing feat. Deny all you want, but Kespa knows how to do their job. Every sport has their sacrifices, don't be a 12 year old ragging idiot to not admit to this. Kespa has run the SC scene for 10 years, and yes there were some hiccups, but overall it went smoothly. For a company who made a sprite based RTS into an Esport, you have to give these guys credit.
So Blizzard pisses Kespa off and now they're partnering with GOMTV... Haha...
Hey remember when Atari made the Jaguar to compete with Super Nintendo and the Sega Genesis? GOMTV is the Atari Jaguar of Korea, they suck and I'm sorry if you feel bad about it. To say it like that is simplifying a complicated evolution. Starcraft got big in Korea due to all the hardcore gamers playing SC who then turned into pro-gamers and fans. Kespa as an entity merely were the ones who stepped in and rode the tidal wave into being main stream. To thank KESPA for making pro-gaming is kinda a joke because they were only a small peice of a big puzzle. There had to be someone to do what KESPA did, so yeah they were smart and deserve some credit for taking the scene by the reigns persay, but to say KESPA knows how to do their job is ludacris. The reality is KESPA is ran by a bunch of stubborn idiots who really have no idea what they are doing. If they knew what they were doing they would have dealt with Blizzard a long time ago and not do stupid things like setup meetings with Blizzard to discuss issues then just completely stand up the CEO when he arrived in Korea, or make absurd demands. There is ALOT more to the backstory of KESPA/Blizzard relations that no one knows about. None of the casual fans (people who could possibly buy SC2 and who watch/play SC1) care or even know about KESPA much, if at all. The problem Blizzard has with KESPA is of course OGN/MBC/Pro-teams. If Blizzard had that portal to advertise through at the moment obviously success would be huge. Obviously if Blizzard didn't take the necessary steps to negotiate to KESPA's demands to get these portals there is something much bigger going on than people realize, and Blizzard has their reasons for it. The order should not be Esport → Everyone get's all competitive → Even my mom plays SC2!
NO! It should be the other fucking way around
Even my mom plays SC2! → Everyone get's all competitive → ESPORTSSSSSSSSS Yeah, you're kinda right, but I think Blizzard realizes it doesn't really matter. While Blizzard's advertising in Korea seems to suggest they are trying to sell it like a new movie box-office opening weekend, which is dumb, there is more at play. First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Also, SC2/GOMTV will be huge, whether you like their commentators or not. And most importantly, SC2 Esports will be huge outside of Korea 100%...this is the game that everyone has been waiting for to make an esport. If it becomes huge outside of Korea that means more big korean companies will want to get involved and the game will eventually become mainstream as it creeps into Korea. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. The possibilies are endless for Blizzard in the world/korea market of ESPORTS, while for KESPA all they have left are alliances with the current SC1 ESPORTS world which certainly won't last forever.
thanks for your input to my discussion rekrul, was hoping for someone like you and honesttea to write something in my blog
now, about that backstory... hohoho
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Thanks for summing it up, was entertaining. I've agreed for a while now.
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couldn't have said it better hahaha.
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Thanks MrHoon!
If you don't mind me asking, what is the sense in Korea about the future of BW right now? For instance, the PL finals had a "this could be the last one" feel to it on TL, but mainly because none of us knows what's going on there. Is it one of those things where no one in Korea is worried and we'll definitely another year of Proleague (and a few more OSL/MSL)? Or too early to tell?
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Blizzard drifted from what they originally stood for long ago, they used to be a company of gamers making games for gamers. Now they are a company of profiteers making games to line their wallets. Yes every company wants to turn a profit, but blizzard has really changed their gaming philosophy ever since wow became their primary project.
They want sc2 hyped up and for it to replace BW, because they make royalties on every sc2 tourney if that is the case. Despite the fact that at the very top level I think many neutral parties would agree BW deserves to be a professional esport more than SC2.
SC2 was designed for mass appeal, it is very casual friendly, so if the majority of koreans aren't hardcore at all that would actually be a good selling point for them, however, there is the graphics issue that mrhoon brings up.
I don't mind blizzard monopolizing esports with their titles, as long as they actually put effort into making those titles legitimate esport games.
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very good blog with a sad story.
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Good to hear more about this, thanks.
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Blizzard should have invested that PR in the Western countries. With what you said, it feels that there's more chances of SC2 becoming an esport here than over there. So why bother?
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rekrul saved the thread imo. And wheres artosis when u need him.
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That asian section might be the most blatantly racist thing I have read on TL outside of General Forum.
Seriously?
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I agree with what Rekrul said above.
Besides, I agree with some valid points in the OP, but GSL's bad commentary? That's a very trivial problem that I don't know why MrHoon even listed it there cos it made the entire post weaker. GSL was GOM's first starleagues, and now with much more money and experience, commentary is like the easiest thing to fix, seriously.
I don't really get the second point "PR that goes nowhere" too. Mainstream marketing has always been more about building brand recognizability than making direct sales. Putting up a big billboard at a public place won't make everyone seeing it go buy the product instantly, but I think we all understand (and experienced it first hand) the powerful effect of mainstream marketing overtime.
Third point is also not convincing either. Starcraft 2 is more friendly to the hardwares that most blockbuster games releases this year and last. Of course it won't be smooth on every computer now (just like how Starcraft 1 demanded very decent hardwares in 1997), but if you're aiming to make a game that lasts 10 years, what an average computer has in Korea in 2010 probably should not stand in your way. Also the game needs to look pretty to attract the casuals, "the dads and moms" too. So there are win and loss here, and I actually think Blizzard balanced out this hardware-vs-beauty aspect quite well.
Still, much thanks to MrHoon for sharing your 'insider' thought to the matter that I have been curious about, and lol at the drawing haha ^^
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SC2 is not a success in KR? How bad is it? how many copy have they sold?
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I don't really get the point of this thread... How is it helping blizzard? TO my eyes it's just huge complaint.
1. You say Blizzard should not have abandoned Kespa, there is no way Blizzard is going back to them.
2. You say Blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea and I say there is no way Blizzard is breaking up the partnership.
3. You say system requirements are high for Sc2. Actually it's pretty dam low for 2010 game. Deal with it. If it was possible to make sc2 system requirements lower I'M PRETTY DAM SURE THEY WOULD DO IT.
4. Once again you say that blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea... which is number one, number two reason all over.
5. I don't get your number 5 point. If I look from casual gamer perspective Blizzard did pretty god dam good job finding balance for pros and casuals. Tell me what do you mean SC2 is not a casual game? In my eyes it's just about right - not to hard to learn, difficult to master.
6. They've said about thousands of times LAN is not coming back and therefore this point is not helping solve the problem.
Overall if I was a Blizzard reading this thread I would find god dam no suggestion of making sc2 better in Korea. It's just one huge complain.
Edit: My personal thoughts (I'm not Korean)
It's god dam fun game. System requirements are pretty god dam low for a game in 2010. Partnership with Gom can go long way for blizzard because GOM are prepared to do anything for them. It was said that Gom is looking for partner to broadcast tournaments on TV. Gom getting better commentators isn't impossible.
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On August 08 2010 18:57 pedduck wrote: SC2 is not a success in KR? How bad is it? how many copy have they sold?
I don't think Blizzard made a report about it.
Thank you MrHoon and Rekrul
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I reall dont care what you all say.
The world is based on $$.
More $ = Better.
Yes thats true in life and thats true in eSports too.
The larger the prize pool the better, the bigger the event will be.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I've never said this was a suggestion thread, if I did I would've wrote suggestions Yes it is a complaint thread, a complaint thread blizzard probably read by some other Korean member who wrote a personal mail to them.
1. You say Blizzard should not have abandoned Kespa, there is no way Blizzard is going back to them. They won't obviously. Although it would be nicer than what's happening now
2. You say Blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea and I say there is no way Blizzard is breaking up the partnership. More like they have no other choice
3. You say system requirements are high for Sc2. Actually it's pretty dam low for 2010 game. Deal with it. If it was possible to make sc2 system requirements lower I'M PRETTY DAM SURE THEY WOULD DO IT. Never said it was Blizzard's fault Jeezes I've been getting this comment like 3 times now when did I say it was blizzard's fault my computer sucks? I just said it wasn't accessible as BW
4. Once again you say that blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea... which is number one, number two reason all over. Unnecessary Step, should be merged with number one and two
5. I don't get your number 5 point. If I look from casual gamer perspective Blizzard did pretty god dam good job finding balance for pros and casuals. Tell me what do you mean SC2 is not a casual game? In my eyes it's just about right - not to hard to learn, difficult to master. Because casual gamers are all the same around the world
6. They've said about thousands of times LAN is not coming back and therefore this point is not helping solve the problem. Okay.
Overall if I was a Blizzard reading this thread I would find god dam no suggestion of making sc2 better in Korea. It's just one huge complain. I wanna see that suggestion thread
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blizzard/gom's prize pool is an example of an attempt to artificially boost demand in their product. What they don't seem to realize though is that the current starleague prize pool reflects the market price established by the demand of the spectators, not the players. The players do matter, but only on the supply side, as in how much scarcity is there of great starcraft players? But it's always easy to get great players, every game has relatively great players -- what's difficult is to get spectator demand.
Why is it the spectators's demand curve that matters and not the players? Because the revenue model of starcraft in Korea is based around television advertising dollars. This means it's the spectators who create the $$$ for Kespa/OGN/MBC, and not the players buying the game. When viewed in this light, it's easy to have doubts about Blizzard/GOM's strategy of paying big bucks for monthly tournaments. Such a strategy might create a lot of CD buyers but will have little effect on actual viewing preferences of the spectators. You're not going to suddenly watch sc2 just cuz someone's making big bucks from it, not if you don't understand the game and not when you have an immensely more accessible game with far more personable stars competing in a more compelling system of teams and leagues. The only way their strategy would work is if the prize spurred enough CD buyers to create a profitable spectator-base just from them. But as Mr. Hoon pointed out, this is unlikely because of the high barriers of price and inconvenience.
For Blizzard and GOM to win in Korea, they need to appeal to the spectators. And yeah, a significant percentage of spectators are those who buy the game. But the vast majority of spectators here do not play the game at all, or do so at a very casual level. This is especially pertinent to the women who make up such a strong proportion of the current BW fanbase, and as every marketer knows, it's your ability to attract females that ultimately determines your ability to persist in the market.
But given the circumstances of Blizzard/Activision, I think they're at least making a good effort in trying to win over Korea. They made the open beta to try and attract casual gamers. They created high prize pools to attract serious players. But though each individual strategy sounds good on paper, the overall strategy is a motley patchwork with no real synergy between its parts. It would have been much simpler if they had acknowledged Kespa's influence and ability to attract the casual or nongamer. But since they took this more difficult route, they're just going to have to keep throwing money at the problem and hope something changes.
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Reason why sc2 isnt gonna fail hard:
On August 08 2010 18:58 AyJay wrote: I don't really get the point of this thread... How is it helping blizzard? TO my eyes it's just huge complaint.
1. You say Blizzard should not have abandoned Kespa, there is no way Blizzard is going back to them.
2. You say Blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea and I say there is no way Blizzard is breaking up the partnership.
3. You say system requirements are high for Sc2. Actually it's pretty dam low for 2010 game. Deal with it. If it was possible to make sc2 system requirements lower I'M PRETTY DAM SURE THEY WOULD DO IT.
4. Once again you say that blizzard decision to partner with GomTV was a bad idea... which is number one, number two reason all over.
5. I don't get your number 5 point. If I look from casual gamer perspective Blizzard did pretty god dam good job finding balance for pros and casuals. Tell me what do you mean SC2 is not a casual game? In my eyes it's just about right - not to hard to learn, difficult to master.
6. They've said about thousands of times LAN is not coming back and therefore this point is not helping solve the problem.
Overall if I was a Blizzard reading this thread I would find god dam no suggestion of making sc2 better in Korea. It's just one huge complain.
Edit: My personal thoughts (I'm not Korean)
It's god dam fun game. System requirements are pretty god dam low for a game in 2010. Partnership with Gom can go long way for blizzard because GOM are prepared to do anything for them. It was said that Gom is looking for partner to broadcast tournaments on TV. Gom getting better commentators isn't impossible.
I think sc2 is not going far as SCBW did in SK, but the rest of the World will be happy with this game.
I cant imagine what happend if Blizzard and Kespa made a deal. SCBW will be on air as usual, but what's about SC2? i mean, SPL is 5days / week, where should sc2 broadcast placed? How would the league system look like?
So in general, it isnt so bad that Blizzard agreed with GomTV. OGN + MBC do SCBW; GomTV does SC2 in 2 languages; in Korean and English for global broadcast;
btw, GomTV has good infrastucture for Internet broadcasting which is utile for fans outside SK
In other hand, OGN + MBC have experience for big events. So there is also a possiblitiy that they pull a synergy of both when there is a huge event like WCG.
btw: my 100th post!!!! I recognized it after i posted it
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I'm sorry but I think you left out the most important reason, so let me give you number seven:
7. You have to PAY to PLAY it at a PC bang.
Now I'm not suggesting here Koreans are poor or anything but there are so many decent FREE online games that can be accessed easily from PC bangs that it's going to be very hard to suddenly force people to pay for what they're used to having for free. This is especially the case with kids and teenagers who don't have much money- remember they are already having to pay for the use of the PC bang. Adults are a bit more used to paying for games like WOW and Lineage so they'll come around easier but many kids will probably NEVER want to pay for an online game. And without kids you're never going to have a strong scene.
BTW- I've been to several PC bangs where they hadn't even bothered adding a short cut to the SC2 homepage to the list of game short cuts on the PC bang computers. This more than two weeks after release shows how badly it's failing here.
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Thanks a lot for this post MrHoon! It's really great to get some South Korean insight! A very enjoyable read!
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nice polemic. blizzard is obviously out of touch .
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Thanks for the post it really was intresting
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I am over the moon about the best case scenario actually happening, with SC2 failing in Korea and the superior game staying dominant.
Let's hope things work out between OGN/MBC and GomTV and we can all go on with our lives and watch a real esport instead of having this casually fun but competitively shitty game shoved down our throats.
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On August 08 2010 20:04 tomatriedes wrote: I'm sorry but I think you left out the most important reason, so let me give you number seven:
7. You have to PAY to PLAY it at a PC bang.
Now I'm not suggesting here Koreans are poor or anything but there are so many decent FREE online games that can be accessed easily from PC bangs that it's going to be very hard to suddenly force people to pay for what they're used to having for free. This is especially the case with kids and teenagers who don't have much money- remember they are already having to pay for the use of the PC bang. Adults are a bit more used to paying for games like WOW and Lineage so they'll come around easier but many kids will probably NEVER want to pay for an online game. And without kids you're never going to have a strong scene.
BTW- I've been to several PC bangs where they hadn't even bothered adding a short cut to the SC2 homepage to the list of game short cuts on the PC bang computers. This more than two weeks after release shows how badly it's failing here.
i go to pc bangs a lot here in seoul, and many of them do have the shortcut. no one plays it though
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i though the real reason was that sc2 is still in beta down there why would any 1 buy a game if the beta is still out ?
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The OP is a good writeup and succinctly summarizes the situation. What Activision wants is a complete top-down vertically integrated structure where they're in control of every aspect of the game. I think Activision's inspiration comes from the Olympics or the World Cup where complete control means even the atheletes are not allowed to blog without permission, but they fail to realize that this is only possible because they are in control of the venue. What Activision is demanding is more like car manufacturers demanding a royalty from race organizers, or more relevantly, Valve taking a cut from every CS tournament. This is insanity and puts the cart before the horse in so many ways it's not even funny. If a race or tournament decides to run cars or a game, the manufacturers/developers should feel honoured, not to mention the advertisement effect this has for them. I don't understand the people who hope for its success as the sheer arrogance and hubris displayed by Activision should not be rewarded with anything but contempt.
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I hope Korea will eventually pick it up.
I'm just worried how the game will do, and if it can be successful as an ESPORT three years from now without South Korea.
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On August 08 2010 18:58 AyJay wrote: 3. You say system requirements are high for Sc2. Actually it's pretty dam low for 2010 game. Deal with it. If it was possible to make sc2 system requirements lower I'M PRETTY DAM SURE THEY WOULD DO IT.
They had total control over the engine. Therefore they had total control of the system requirements. It was clearly possible to reduce the requirements because there are literally thousands of games out there with lower requirements.
So despite it being possible and despite Blizzard having total control they decided to go for the current requirements. You are wrong.
The point was that BW was incredibly accessible and SC2 is not.
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I think like anything else, it was a risk for blizzard to do what they did in SK. I think if you look at the big picture, and that means the world, that it will be the right choice. Remember that they are creating a product with an expected life cycle of 10+ years.
While SK has infrastructure in place for pro gaming, why limit the worldwide scene by structuring it after the SK model. I don't think that most foreigners would EVER want to live in a house to be forced to practice 10+hours a day for minimal pay unless you are a superstar.
GomTV has the distinct advantage over OGN/MBC because they can really broadcast to the entire world not just SK. If they can get the infrastructure in place for high quality streams like the Help for haiti concert and the E3 2010 coverage, I see no reason why you would want to go back to a cable tv model. Too many contracts to make, too much money to be lost in translation. Internet streaming and on demand is not as popular yet, but when the technology of the general public catches up to the service, it will be huge. Maybe the proleague finals gets a 1.6 rating on OGN, but on the internet gets 50Million hits. In the long run i think that's the way to go globally. Hopefully in local markets, cable TV contracts will follow the success, but i think Blizzard and Gom are thinking way further out of the box.
Furthermore, as an anecdote, i'm korean, and i know that koreans are reaaaaaaaaly stubborn. It will be hard for them to give up what they know or learn something new. As a fireman, it's hard enough to convince old timers that the new trucks with better horsepower, mileage, pump capacity, ease of use, turning radius, maneuverability, clearance, maintenance costs, etc are actually better than their beat up has been rigs. Much more is it difficult to convince an entire culture to learn something new.
Superdanielman had some interesting views on the subject on his twitter, and i tend to agree with him as to how they could be doing it better. Overall though, it will take time. Commentating is the easiest and fastest thing that can change. The gobal model though, is not.
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Damn thats not good... although, attitudes can change, and GOM can improve etc. Good to hear some Korean perspective though. While realistically Blizzard has developed enough reputation and money to mitigate the consequences of making mistakes, I dont like seeing it happen nonetheless.
I'm no business expert, but I had a bad feeling seeing the size of the prizes. Its great money is being put into eSports, but I dont see how they can get a reasonable return on that. Big money, without proper business execution will still fail (eg XFL, Affliction in mma etc)
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Really good writeup for the Korean situation.
Very sad that its not hitting off in Korea, but at least BW is still on the TV!
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there was a promotional starcraft 2 setup in COEX and there were a bunch of computers where people could play SC2 and it was packed.
then i went to a PC bang nearby and there were more people playing SC2 than BW (i saw literally one screen that had BW on). The couple beside me were yelling and screaming and the girl was like, "this is sooo fun!!!" and i look at their screens and it's SC2.
for what it's worth, a bunch of people in the world (even in Korea, folks) like SC2 and to compare it to a failed video game console seems a tad unfair.
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Is this a huge deal?
StarCraft 2 is picking up hugely in the west, do we want another game where we have to watch VODs in Korean? Maybe StarCraft 2 will pick up in the west much like BW picked up in Korea and we'll have a flip situation this time.
I don't think how well SC2 does Korea is any worry on how well it will do as an esport, BW did amazingly as an esport in Korea, but terribly in the west.
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I don't know how accurate a lot of your stuff is and how much it just boils down to personal ranting
"no one wants to play on low textures" is one reason why koreans don't want to play SC2, but BW looks like shit. It is ancient, people aren't playing it because of the graphics. So why would having to play on low settings on their home pc be such a huge turn off? It doesn't really make sense to me. SC2 isn't the most graphically demanding pc game that is popular in Korea, speaking of which:
Another complaint, about KSSNs and whatnot, the most popular games in pcbangs are all MMOs, which require KSSN registration just like SC2. It hasn't stopped those games from being the most played, why would it stop SC2? Think of Battle.net as a new Nexon or something. It is no way fundamentally different than how you'd play any other recent game in Korea.
Stuff about GOM sucking. They tried to break into a particularly uncompetitive market (either you are part of KESPA or you aren't) you can't bash them for sucking when the cards are stacked against them and the esports powers pretty much align to halt their progress. Let's see what happens first.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was go to war with Kespa, it was retardedly stupid and we see where the hearts of Koreans lie, not with the foreign entity but with the organization that pretty much fostered ESPORTS and made it what it is today. They should have tried harder to play ball with Kespa. But in the end we don't know how it will turn out. It definitely didn't endear blizzard to Korean fans
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On August 08 2010 21:37 dasanivan wrote: there was a promotional starcraft 2 setup in COEX and there were a bunch of computers where people could play SC2 and it was packed.
then i went to a PC bang nearby and there were more people playing SC2 than BW (i saw literally one screen that had BW on). The couple beside me were yelling and screaming and the girl was like, "this is sooo fun!!!" and i look at their screens and it's SC2.
for what it's worth, a bunch of people in the world (even in Korea, folks) like SC2 and to compare it to a failed video game console seems a tad unfair.
So one korean says its actually popular while the OP says the koreans are completely not interested at all.. hmm, hard to really get a fair picture of how the situation actually is. It feels like personal bias is making the posts a bit skewed. Can't you try to look at the situation more objectively?
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MrHoon, do you think that if SC2 becomes big as an esport in the western world (or I guess just non-korean world generally) that Korea would then follow?
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On August 08 2010 21:40 Nyx wrote: Is this a huge deal?
StarCraft 2 is picking up hugely in the west, do we want another game where we have to watch VODs in Korean? Maybe StarCraft 2 will pick up in the west much like BW picked up in Korea and we'll have a flip situation this time.
I don't think how well SC2 does Korea is any worry on how well it will do as an esport, BW did amazingly as an esport in Korea, but terribly in the west.
True that, but the chances of SC2 even establishing itself as an esport are iffy at best. I don't need to go through all the reasons again, we all know of the calls that Activision made.
All I hope is that this stops any more noobs from thinking Brood War is going to die out.
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On August 08 2010 21:44 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 21:37 dasanivan wrote: there was a promotional starcraft 2 setup in COEX and there were a bunch of computers where people could play SC2 and it was packed.
then i went to a PC bang nearby and there were more people playing SC2 than BW (i saw literally one screen that had BW on). The couple beside me were yelling and screaming and the girl was like, "this is sooo fun!!!" and i look at their screens and it's SC2.
for what it's worth, a bunch of people in the world (even in Korea, folks) like SC2 and to compare it to a failed video game console seems a tad unfair. So one korean says its actually popular while the OP says the koreans are completely not interested at all.. hmm, hard to really get a fair picture of how the situation actually is. It feels like personal bias is making the posts a bit skewed. Can't you try to look at the situation more objectively?
If it helps, you could find some numbers, define the threshold for "fail" for yourself and go from there.
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great blog, frontpage this please oh shit I checked, this already is on frontpage ^^
hadnt looked at it this way, I was sure that SC2 would be a huge hit, especially when I read about the huge gomTV tourney. Sad that I was wrong, although if SC2 meant death of BW then I'm glad about it not being that successful. Also this means that europeans and americans will have more of a chance to compete with asians in SC2.
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Awesome insight into the korean sc2 scene/market. Thanks a bunch.
Sadly, if everything you wrote is right, I can't see sc2 becomming big in korea in the next year at least, who knows what will happen after that.
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United States32523 Posts
To be honest, one, two and four are only reasons for hardcore BW fans to feel negatively towards Blizzard. While they are still a sizeable group of people, as we can see from the 30,000 that showed up to the PL final on a sweltering Korean summer day, they're not the people that are going to make SC II sell two million copies in Korea like BW.
Reasons three, five and six (six is flimsy, your SS number is required for so many things everyone knows it by memory), and others you did not cover are why SC II is starting slowly. Not doing badly as you are implying, but starting slowly. It's still in free trial period in Korea right now (which means all bets are off), and it's quite possible it could continue this trend of slow and steady growth. That said, early signs seem to indicate that it won't be as popular as BW, but it's for reasons related to the casual gamers who are every Korean male between 12 and 30.
Anyway, why do I think it's starting poorly amongst the general Korean audience? Well, SC1 was a ridiculous anomaly. SC came at the exact right time during the PC Bang/IT boom, and it happened to be the best competitive game that had a good Korean distributer at the time. You can't expect a ton of brand loyalty from casual gamers, and I think Blizzard realized this when they spent so much on their advertising campaign. Most people who played BW during its prime are over 20 now, and the younger generation of gamers have grown up in a much different environment where they were spoiled for variety in terms of games.
If SC II does end up doing poorly in Korea, it's going to be for a simple reason that's not related to any corporate machinations and plotting: Because it wasn't fun enough.
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very interesting article/readup
it really did seem GOM was trying to go really hardcore in "shoving it down people's throats" as u mentioned
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On August 08 2010 21:43 floor exercise wrote: I don't know how accurate a lot of your stuff is and how much it just boils down to personal ranting
"no one wants to play on low textures" is one reason why koreans don't want to play SC2, but BW looks like shit. It is ancient, people aren't playing it because of the graphics. So why would having to play on low settings on their home pc be such a huge turn off? It doesn't really make sense to me. SC2 isn't the most graphically demanding pc game that is popular in Korea, speaking of which:
Another complaint, about KSSNs and whatnot, the most popular games in pcbangs are all MMOs, which require KSSN registration just like SC2. It hasn't stopped those games from being the most played, why would it stop SC2? Think of Battle.net as a new Nexon or something. It is no way fundamentally different than how you'd play any other recent game in Korea.
Stuff about GOM sucking. They tried to break into a particularly uncompetitive market (either you are part of KESPA or you aren't) you can't bash them for sucking when the cards are stacked against them and the esports powers pretty much align to halt their progress. Let's see what happens first.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was go to war with Kespa, it was retardedly stupid and we see where the hearts of Koreans lie, not with the foreign entity but with the organization that pretty much fostered ESPORTS and made it what it is today. They should have tried harder to play ball with Kespa. But in the end we don't know how it will turn out. It definitely didn't endear blizzard to Korean fans
First of all, there are couple things off with your post #1, You believe Starcraft has shit graphics (seriously, what?) I'm not going to be a retro gamer and respect your decision of not liking beautiful sprite art, but Starcraft is appealing because it's easy on the eyes.
#2, KSSN is not a problem, it's an inconvenience. Do you think Koreans who get introduced to SC2 will think "oh boy i gotta pop dat KSSN out to register" when every other game except WoW didn't require that?
#3, I admire the fact that they tried but at the same time you can't say "Because they're new it's okay." There was a reason why Gom Starcraft Invitational worked so well yet Gom Classic did not work out well.
On August 08 2010 21:44 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 21:37 dasanivan wrote: there was a promotional starcraft 2 setup in COEX and there were a bunch of computers where people could play SC2 and it was packed.
then i went to a PC bang nearby and there were more people playing SC2 than BW (i saw literally one screen that had BW on). The couple beside me were yelling and screaming and the girl was like, "this is sooo fun!!!" and i look at their screens and it's SC2.
for what it's worth, a bunch of people in the world (even in Korea, folks) like SC2 and to compare it to a failed video game console seems a tad unfair. So one korean says its actually popular while the OP says the koreans are completely not interested at all.. hmm, hard to really get a fair picture of how the situation actually is. It feels like personal bias is making the posts a bit skewed. Can't you try to look at the situation more objectively?
You went to COEX in the Samsung District, one of the most populated places inside Seoul, a place where if you go to the weekends you literally choke to death and a place where you have to reserve movie tickets 4 days before or you sit in the front, has a huge clothing mall shop and 2 hotels connected to it, tens of grand halls for weddings/conventions/art galleries, and found that alot of people are playing starcraft? Call me crazy but if I slap 20 computers with SC2 installed in the middle of manhattan I bet I can get twice the numbers.
Also dasanivan, did you know SC2 can't even hit top 10 games in PCbangs in Korea?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:21 MrHoon wrote:
You went to COEX in the Samsung District, one of the most populated places inside Seoul, a place where if you go to the weekends you literally choke to death and a place where you have to reserve movie tickets 4 days before or you sit in the front, has a huge clothing mall shop and 2 hotels connected to it, tens of grand halls for weddings/conventions/art galleries, and found that alot of people are playing starcraft? Call me crazy but if I slap 20 computers with SC2 installed in the middle of manhattan I bet I can get twice the numbers.
Also dasanivan, did you know SC2 can't even hit top 10 games in PCbangs in Korea?
oh u so cute actually replying to these kinda ppl
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I'm not saying starcraft 2 sucks, I actually enjoy the game although I would like to play on my computer time to time
It's just so frustrating to see such a good game not doing as well as I (and many others) expected
Yes it's a bit early to tell, and yes the original starcraft took years even with the golden age boom
It's just that compared to SC1, the whole thing is moving so slowly and in the other direction.
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On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. The formats that are competitive in magic the gathering are the ones that have big money tournaments, the guys who play more casual formats are much worse players.
IMO, tournaments in (korean) esports is almost not at all for money but for the fame and name value they bring. Most of the money is from the salary you get from the team, which you increase by winning these tournaments. GOM does not have the prestige associated with MSL/OSL. Haven't some teams even boycotted their tournaments in the past? And as MrHoon pointed out, you can watch OSL/MSL on your TV with your friends sitting in your couch in a comfortable manner, whereas you must huddle in front of a small computer screen to watch GOM stuff - not as fun.
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On August 08 2010 22:07 Waxangel wrote: To be honest, one, two and four are only reasons for hardcore BW fans to feel negatively towards Blizzard. While they are still a sizeable group of people, as we can see from the 30,000 that showed up to the PL final on a sweltering Korean summer day, they're not the people that are going to make SC II sell two million copies in Korea like BW.
Reasons three, five and six (six is flimsy, your SS number is required for so many things everyone knows it by memory), and others you did not cover are why SC II is starting slowly. Not doing badly as you are implying, but starting slowly. It's still in free trial period in Korea right now (which means all bets are off), and it's quite possible it could continue this trend of slow and steady growth. That said, early signs seem to indicate that it won't be as popular as BW, but it's for reasons related to the casual gamers who are every Korean male between 12 and 30.
Anyway, why do I think it's starting poorly amongst the general Korean audience? Well, SC1 was a ridiculous anomaly. SC came at the exact right time during the PC Bang/IT boom, and it happened to be the best competitive game that had a good Korean distributer at the time. You can't expect a ton of brand loyalty from casual gamers, and I think Blizzard realized this when they spent so much on their advertising campaign. Most people who played BW during its prime are over 20 now, and the younger generation of gamers have grown up in a much different environment where they were spoiled for variety in terms of games.
If SC II does end up doing poorly in Korea, it's going to be for a simple reason that's not related to any corporate machinations and plotting: Because it wasn't fun enough.
And because FIFA online, Dungeon and Fighter, Maple Story, Kart Rider, Gunz and countless FPSes are free not to mention BW and DOTA. I just don't think Korean kids and teenagers are going to like having to cough up money to play SC2.
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On August 08 2010 21:44 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 21:37 dasanivan wrote: there was a promotional starcraft 2 setup in COEX and there were a bunch of computers where people could play SC2 and it was packed.
then i went to a PC bang nearby and there were more people playing SC2 than BW (i saw literally one screen that had BW on). The couple beside me were yelling and screaming and the girl was like, "this is sooo fun!!!" and i look at their screens and it's SC2.
for what it's worth, a bunch of people in the world (even in Korea, folks) like SC2 and to compare it to a failed video game console seems a tad unfair. So one korean says its actually popular while the OP says the koreans are completely not interested at all.. hmm, hard to really get a fair picture of how the situation actually is. It feels like personal bias is making the posts a bit skewed. Can't you try to look at the situation more objectively?
Totally different from my experience-
Last Friday at the pc bang I went to there were two adults playing SC2, about 5 high school kids playing DOTA and the rest of the middle and elementary kids were playing FIFA online and Maple Story. Every other time I've been SC2 players have been non-existent or less than five.
Of course some are getting into it but it is really not making the big impact here that some are trying to claim.
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Dane cook bad? Dane cook is funny :< Love the art work, but yeah. Blizzard is kinda stabbing themselves in Korea :< I follow superdanielman on twitter and he says the same stuff you do.
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Yeah I totally agree with u. Especially what Blizzard did to Kespa. After that, I was just so pissed at Blizzard. Kespa had done so many great things to Esports, they're what held things together. And then I heard they were going to eliminate the SC1 pro scene, and I just went livid. Watching SC1 was what got me into Brood War again in the first place. If it wasn't for that I would not have given a damn about Starcraft. I really like watching SC1 pro vods and i love reading about them here on TL, if Blizzard destroys it, TL should not stand still brainwashed with SC2, but stand up to Blizzard and say this is untolerable. I havn't been here long, but SC1 is what started the whole thing, remember.
Also, Blizzard screwed up royally with their timing. They announced it in 2007, and many people were eager then. Up until about 2009, people were still eager, but after, people were just like fuck it, its never going to come out, im not gonna give a damn about it.
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My friends also tell me no one plays SC2 at pcbang... I couldn't believe them after seeing all the hype and publicity on Korean gaming sites, but it's true.
Here are the latest rankings from 2010 August 7th
1. Aion / 아이온 13.92% 2. Sudden Attack / 서든어택 8.39% 3. FIFA Online 2 / 피파온라인2 7.96% 4. Warcraft 3 / 워크래프트 3 6.47% 5. Starcraft / 스타크래프트 6.31% 6. Maple Story / 메이플 스토리 5.68% 7. Lineage 2 / 리니지 2 4.11% 8. Dungeon and Fighter / 던전앤파이터 3.9% 9. Lineage / 리니지 3.71% 10. World of Warcraft / 월드 오브 워크래프트 3.68%
edit: I think the only way GOM can succeed with SC2 is getting some star players from SC1. It would have been controversial but they could have recruited Savior Upmagic Hwasin? It's too bad they've already decided to ban all players involved with the scandal.
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Great read. Blizzard needs to hire you to be the regional director for Korea.
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excellent writeup, very interesting read
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This really needs to be on the front page.
I never considered the "it needs to be everywhere first for the competitive scene to form" but upon reflection I can't imagine what else I could have thought. Of course Blizzard will just say to give it time...
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On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote: I think the only way GOM can succeed with SC2 is getting some star players from SC1. It would have been controversial but they could have recruited Savior Upmagic Hwasin? It's too bad they've already decided to ban all players involved with the scandal.
I think bringing those players involved with the scandal would be detrimental for them. Maybe players like Boxer will do.
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I always figured SC2 would do poorly because Koreans would confuse it with SC. StarCraftu <-> StarCraft 2
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Seems reasonable to me, blizzard just seem so ignorant to everything around them, they try to listen and come up with a poor solution far too late, most of the time.
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The same can be said about Counter-Strike:Source vs Counter-Strike1.6.
Which game has more players? CS1.6 (200k) vs CSS (50k) -- including pirated versions
Which game has the more prestigious competitions? CS1.6
"The game isnt even out for 2 weeks" argument holds no water. It's not like they have to build up brand recognition. Industry experts in Korea have already stated the first week pretty much decides a game's fate and that they are dissappointed with SC2's performance.
Besides, if Activision sees that their plan is working, they'll pull the same shit they did for MW2 and WoW. You may think it's ok if SC2 only fails in Korea and the rest of the world sees SC2 e-sports taking off but given the track record of Activision, SC2 needs to fail for the sake of gamers everywhere.
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On August 08 2010 23:07 BertSC2 wrote: You, my dear people, are truly fools. Now ur wondering: "what makes us fools?" It's my pleasure to answer u this question... you, dear people, are fools for even creating this thread (MrHoon), worrying about such stuff, discussing, blaming blizzard and all this.
The game isnt even out for 2 weeks and based on the LITTLE information that you pple have, u start making assumptions on how this game is going to fail in SK.
In case you didn't know, people love to analyze, talk and make predictions, even with lack of data.
On August 08 2010 23:07 BertSC2 wrote: blizzards influence is way bigger on the people (on the pple in SK as well, yes) than kespa's.
errr...really? We all know this is not the Blizzard of old but Activision-Blizzard.
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5003 Posts
First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later.
1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later?
Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later.
Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them.
If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2.
Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was.
Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2.
Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen.
You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_-
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On August 08 2010 23:23 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote: I think the only way GOM can succeed with SC2 is getting some star players from SC1. It would have been controversial but they could have recruited Savior Upmagic Hwasin? It's too bad they've already decided to ban all players involved with the scandal. I think bringing those players involved with the scandal would be detrimental for them. Maybe players like Boxer will do. Too bad that players like Boxer all have a place as leader figures within their own teams, or if not that, as commentators. Oldschool players with a good degree of success aren't going to SC2. Neither is anyone with a decent salary. I don't think anyone wants to try to live off of prize money.
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That's what people said about CSS once they realized it wouldn't take over the mantle of CS1.6 -- that CSS and CS1.6 are different games and comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.
It's funny how you are making the exact same argument. Seems like people are already making excuses for SC2 failure.
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On August 08 2010 22:21 MrHoon wrote:
You went to COEX in the Samsung District, one of the most populated places inside Seoul, a place where if you go to the weekends you literally choke to death and a place where you have to reserve movie tickets 4 days before or you sit in the front, has a huge clothing mall shop and 2 hotels connected to it, tens of grand halls for weddings/conventions/art galleries, and found that alot of people are playing starcraft? Call me crazy but if I slap 20 computers with SC2 installed in the middle of manhattan I bet I can get twice the numbers.
Also dasanivan, did you know SC2 can't even hit top 10 games in PCbangs in Korea?
i never argued that SC2 is a mega hit, I just said people are enjoying it, which is a lot more accurate than saying than nobody cares or is interested in the game at all.
i understand you want to drive in the point that SC2 hasn't made some sort of explosion into the scene, but your claims are misleading a lot of people.
also, check your top 10 stats again. sure it's not number one but at least it's steadily gone up since first entering PC bangs and stands at 9 right now.
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5003 Posts
On August 08 2010 23:40 dasanivan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 22:21 MrHoon wrote:
You went to COEX in the Samsung District, one of the most populated places inside Seoul, a place where if you go to the weekends you literally choke to death and a place where you have to reserve movie tickets 4 days before or you sit in the front, has a huge clothing mall shop and 2 hotels connected to it, tens of grand halls for weddings/conventions/art galleries, and found that alot of people are playing starcraft? Call me crazy but if I slap 20 computers with SC2 installed in the middle of manhattan I bet I can get twice the numbers.
Also dasanivan, did you know SC2 can't even hit top 10 games in PCbangs in Korea? i never argued that SC2 is a mega hit, I just said people are enjoying it, which is a lot more accurate than saying than nobody cares or is interested in the game at all. i understand you want to drive in the point that SC2 hasn't made some sort of explosion into the scene, but your claims are misleading a lot of people. also, check your top 10 stats again. sure it's not number one but at least it's steadily gone up since first entering PC bangs and stands at 9 right now.
http://gametrics.com/
it does not stand in 9th, it's still not top 10 haha
Also it hasn't steadily gone up. It has more to do with more computers installing SC2. When it first came out only like half of korean pc bangs had sc2 installed, i'm pretty sure it's close to 100% now.
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1. On the Blizz/KeSPA split:
I love how some of the last Brood War stragglers are hoping and praying that SC2 fails in South Korea. I hope you guys know that your only hope for the continuation of BW as an esport there is if SC2 sees some amount of success. Blizzard and their partner GOMTV basically have KeSPA by the balls right now. KeSPA isn't legally allowed to broadcast anything Starcraft and the OSL/MSL/Starleague basically run right now because Blizzard's lawyers are choosing to ignore it.
What do you think will happen if SC2 doesn't catch on like Blizzard wants it to? Like the OP has mentioned, Blizzard has sank a huuge investment into SC2 for Korea (giant Raynors on frickin' airplanes and everything) and my guess is if SC2 doesn't perform as expected Blizzard will take drastic measures to help it out, even if it means gutting the SCBW scene there.
2. On SC2's success in Korea I never understood why we were so concerned with SC2's success in Korea in the first place, seeing as most of the users on this site are from North/South America and Europe. Yes, I understand and respect Korea as the granddaddy of the SC esports scene, but we have already seen that a game's success as an esport in Korea has no effect whatsoever on the western esports scene (e.g. SCBW). Add that to the fact that KeSPA et al. have been historically xenophobic and have no intentions of bringing esports to the west; they are perfectly content with their little empire in Korea.
Now, if SC2 becomes wildly popular (which sales figures suggest) and becomes a major esport in the west (which I am hopeful for), I could care less about the SC2 scene in Korea. I'll be watching SC2 played by western gamers on channels/sites that speak my language. The Koreans could be burning their SC2 copies on the street for all I care.
*edited for clarity
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This thread is like reading World Cup predictions all over again. I'm definitely curious about what future holds though. I hope SC2 succeeds, but Activision-Blizzard needs to change as well.
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5003 Posts
Only if we can get actual numbers off of it to compare how different it is
I was honestly checking gametrics daily for the last 3 days to see if GSL will finally allow it jump up in ranking, so I'm actually glad to see SC2 break top 10 in some chart somewhere. However, every news site I've seen used gametrics data so far.
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Belongs in an actual section and not just blog IMO. It's a great write-up followed by some terrible replies.
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I really agree with the whole GOMTV sucking part.
I love Tasteless and all, but imo GOMTV+Blizzard will never become what OGN+MBC+Kespa did. Blizzard basically sat out of Korea for the past 10 years and did shit-all while Kespa developed the scene, and now Blizzards basically try to kick in the door, barge in, and scream "ITS OUR HOUSE NOW!!".
Maybe it's the fact that it's Activision-Blizzard now and we all know how that company loves to make money but..
:/
5/5 blog though
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A very interesting read, this should be in the SC2 general instead of the "SC2 fails in PC bangs" in my opinion. I'm hoping you aren't right though, or that things change in time.
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absolutely amazing, hitting all points and left me laughing, just felt the need to say thank you for typing all this up, this is honestly exactly what i was feeling about the whole situation in korea... lol.
Blizzard read this carefully and post it in all your cubicles. This should be a list of shit YOU SHOULD NOT DO WITH AN E-SPORTS ORIENTATED RELEASE.
p.s stop melting graphics cards.
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I love the way this was written wtb more!
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I'm very surprised at that chart. Aion ftw! If only I had $15 a month to dish out for that game.
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http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2010304&page=2 "I thought sc2 would fail but the popularity is incredible"
"i was a little disappointed when beta first came out, that regardless of all the publicity reaction seemed kind of dull...
but when i went to a pc bang where sc2 hadn't been installed a bunch of people were playing sc2."
he goes onto say he thinks its especially cause of UMS maps that itll have to succeed.
basically this means that in some cases people have actually played sc2 by installing sc2 themselves, without it being an official pc bang game at that location.
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A korean games company should make a proper RTS without the bullshit baggage from Activision and retarded designs from Dustin Browden. Aion is already way better than WoW and the same could be done with SC.
and LOL @ bertsc2 has nothing to say so he reverts to ad hominem. yeah i really am not at your level.
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i think you are whole bunches of wrong. it doesn't really matter if all or any of your opinion is quite as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
and why do you think the results need be mutually exclusive? can not sc2 be this huge competitive thing for international e-athletes with super computers while at the same time PL and the starleagues keep doing there thing as they've always done? cuz you know what, i'm pretty sure that is what has been happening - and will continue so.
seriously, stop feeling like the sc1 phenomenon is being abandoned. instead, think of it as sc2 is your little brother who is smarter and stronger because you taught him and trained him yourself.
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excelent read big thank you from me but what does PR mean ?
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Getting stars from scbw would seem to be a really good way to promote sc2, that and perhaps having teams that play both sc2 and scbw. bo5 set 1 sc2, set 2 bw, set 3 sc2, set 4 bw, ace sc2
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On August 09 2010 00:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote: i think you are whole bunches of wrong. it doesn't really matter if all or any of your opinion is quite as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
and why do you think the results need be mutually exclusive? can not sc2 be this huge competitive thing for international e-athletes with super computers while at the same time PL and the starleagues keep doing there thing as they've always done? cuz you know what, i'm pretty sure that is what has been happening - and will continue so.
seriously, stop feeling like the sc1 phenomenon is being abandoned. instead, think of it as sc2 is your little brother who is smarter and stronger because you taught him and trained him yourself.
What position are you in to tell him he's wrong?
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On August 09 2010 00:23 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 00:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote: i think you are whole bunches of wrong. it doesn't really matter if all or any of your opinion is quite as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
and why do you think the results need be mutually exclusive? can not sc2 be this huge competitive thing for international e-athletes with super computers while at the same time PL and the starleagues keep doing there thing as they've always done? cuz you know what, i'm pretty sure that is what has been happening - and will continue so.
seriously, stop feeling like the sc1 phenomenon is being abandoned. instead, think of it as sc2 is your little brother who is smarter and stronger because you taught him and trained him yourself. What position are you in to tell him he's wrong?
Frankly, there are few in a position to tell him that he's right.
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On August 09 2010 00:18 NIIINO wrote: excelent read big thank you from me but what does PR mean ?
Public relations
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How can you forget your social security number? :D
And boy does whoever created junkacc (who is obviously a mod, since thats the only reason it would still not be banned as having multiple accs isnt allowed by us regular mortal) have it in for SC2, he hates it with his entire being.
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On August 09 2010 00:23 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 00:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote: i think you are whole bunches of wrong. it doesn't really matter if all or any of your opinion is quite as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
and why do you think the results need be mutually exclusive? can not sc2 be this huge competitive thing for international e-athletes with super computers while at the same time PL and the starleagues keep doing there thing as they've always done? cuz you know what, i'm pretty sure that is what has been happening - and will continue so.
seriously, stop feeling like the sc1 phenomenon is being abandoned. instead, think of it as sc2 is your little brother who is smarter and stronger because you taught him and trained him yourself. What position are you in to tell him he's wrong?
modern objectivity. if that does not suffice, then my position is 'troll'
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5003 Posts
On August 09 2010 00:46 JustAnotherKnave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 00:23 infinity2k9 wrote:On August 09 2010 00:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote: i think you are whole bunches of wrong. it doesn't really matter if all or any of your opinion is quite as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
and why do you think the results need be mutually exclusive? can not sc2 be this huge competitive thing for international e-athletes with super computers while at the same time PL and the starleagues keep doing there thing as they've always done? cuz you know what, i'm pretty sure that is what has been happening - and will continue so.
seriously, stop feeling like the sc1 phenomenon is being abandoned. instead, think of it as sc2 is your little brother who is smarter and stronger because you taught him and trained him yourself. What position are you in to tell him he's wrong? modern objectivity. if that does not suffice, then my position is 'troll'
the truth is that korea WILL rally around this game because they are THE e-sports permanent SC host nation. why would they delibiretly snub this opportunity to take to the next level what they themselves started? should adaptation, evolution, and progress fail to conservatism?
Modern Objectivity at its best, yo
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oh god, this sucks. i really hope blizz reads this.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Thanks for this. Hopefully BW doesn't become another casualty to Blizzard's ham-handedness.
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It's doing great everywhere else.
This obsession with Korea is silly.
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It was prolly activisions fault. forcing producers to pump out a new CoD game yearly, they are just wanting more and more money. So they spend big bucks in korea, with little profit.
Man i hate activision >_>
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On August 08 2010 23:41 Jefferino wrote: 1. On the Blizz/KeSPA split: I love how some of the last Brood War stragglers are hoping and praying that SC2 fails in South Korea. I hope you guys know that your only hope for the continuation of BW as an esport there is if SC2 sees some amount of success. Blizzard and their partner GOMTV basically have KeSPA by the balls right now. KeSPA isn't legally allowed to broadcast anything Starcraft and the OSL/MSL/Starleague basically run right now because Blizzard's lawyers are choosing to ignore it.
What do you think will happen if SC2 doesn't catch on like Blizzard wants it to? Like the OP has mentioned, Blizzard has sank a huuge investment into SC2 for Korea (giant Raynors on frickin' airplanes and everything) and my guess is if SC2 doesn't perform as expected Blizzard will take drastic measures to help it out, even if it means gutting the SCBW scene there.
2. On SC2's success in Korea I never understood why we were so concerned with SC2's success in Korea in the first place, seeing as most of the users on this site are from North/South America and Europe. Yes, I understand and respect Korea as the granddaddy of the SC esports scene, but we have already seen that a game's success as an esport in Korea has no effect whatsoever on the western esports scene (e.g. SCBW). Add that to the fact that KeSPA et al. have been historically xenophobic and have no intentions of bringing esports to the west; they are perfectly content with their little empire in Korea.
Now, if SC2 becomes wildly popular (which sales figures suggest) and becomes a major esport in the west (which I am hopeful for), I could care less about the SC2 scene in Korea. I'll be watching SC2 played by western gamers on channels/sites that speak my language. The Koreans could be burning their SC2 copies on the street for all I care.
Such ignorance. Of course Kespa is going to focus on Korean Esports, they are the Korean e-Sports Players Association. To call them xenophobic is absurd, it's not their business to bring Esports to the west. I guess you haven't heard of WCG?
It is ultimately up to other nations to cultivate their own brand of Esports. CGS was the closest the west got to making Esports mainstream. It's really up to MLG now for Esports and SC2 to go big in America.
And how could you think anyone here is "hoping and praying for SC2 to fail in Korea"? The entire point of MrHoon's blog is a wakeup call for Blizzard in order so that SC2 may succeed. I'm glad you care so much for Korea's SC2 scene.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Show nested quote +Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. Show nested quote + If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_-
You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right
<--- Me.
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5003 Posts
On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me.
Right in terms of what?
Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see
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Blizzard goal is to sell SC2 copies and not developing ESPORT scene. Its a preety good advertisment with huge tourney prizes for ppl to get interested but I cant see developing in the long term mostly because of Blizzard control mechanisams that put into SC2.
There is a small possibilty that SC2 can become popular just like BW but i doubt it because SC2 is extremly boring ( and alot more reasons ) to watch which means no watching on TV and just going back to the western style of ESPORT for SC2 instead of taking over BW.
Anyways good post MrHoon
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On August 08 2010 21:20 SCC-Faust wrote: 'm just worried how the game will do, and if it can be successful as an ESPORT three years from now without South Korea. No need to worry. The Esport: SC2 will be huge (not saying it will be the single largest one ever) regardless of Korea's general acceptance or rejection of the game.
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Awesome writeup Mr. Hoon. Once more, you have proven to the world the alpha and omega. Totally agree with all points and levels here. Congrats and thanks for the read! 10/5
P.S. When are you coming back to US????????
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote: ... 4. Warcraft 3 / 워크래프트 3 6.47% 5. Starcraft / 스타크래프트 6.31% ...
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost. But apparently it is less popular than even Warcraft 3 which makes me question the actual popularity of BW these days.
Also, somebody mentioned that SC2 was at about 3% and slowly rising. This means there are about half as many people playing it as those who play BW/War3. This is not bad at all for a purportedly inertial culture, is it?
This and the $500k tourney happening that is bound to attract more players make it rather hard to believe in SC2 being a total failure. It's not doing extraordinary well, but not doing that bad either.
And finally the number of players is not as relevant to this community as the amount of viewers, and how high this is going to be still remains to be seen.
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lol Starcraft 2 "Esports" ROFLOLOLOL
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On August 09 2010 01:39 Random() wrote:
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost. You have to look for the number of TV viewers which is only interesting thing. Great read MrHoon
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 09 2010 00:56 Ndugu wrote: It's doing great everywhere else.
This obsession with Korea is silly. The obsession with Korean is not silly, it's more than justified. Korea is the only country that has been able to make a computer game into a mainstream sport, with regular events on television, and extremely well attended live games.
We know how esports works in the west; fragmented teams and tournaments across a bunch of different websites, with spotty prize money, and only the occasional niche events. That's how Sc2 is going to end up (and that's not terrible) if it doesn't take hold in Korea. The Korean model of esports is how we'd all love for it to be for Sc2, and if Korea isn't onboard, then it's to our detriment.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 09 2010 01:16 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me. Right in terms of what? Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see
korean nationalism was only one example cited in a short post
(i'm saying sc2 will be huge in korea within 1 year)
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LOL AION.
I lost all hope for Korea.
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On August 09 2010 02:13 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 01:16 Milkis wrote:On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me. Right in terms of what? Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see korean nationalism was only one example cited in a short post (i'm saying sc2 will be huge in korea within 1 year) I doubt it. I wouldn't suggest betting $15.9k on it this time around.
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Braavos36362 Posts
I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
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Croatia9363 Posts
Man I really wish teamliquid starts "Nuking" posts again like they did in the old days. Some of the posts here are really a sore to the eyes.
And surprisingly enough, most of them come from people defending SC2 with uneducated opinions (okay, not that surprising).
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On August 09 2010 01:39 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 22:58 san-tokie wrote: ... 4. Warcraft 3 / 워크래프트 3 6.47% 5. Starcraft / 스타크래프트 6.31% ...
I found these numbers surprising. BW is thought by many foreigners to be the ultimate game in Korea, a national sport almost. But apparently it is less popular than even Warcraft 3 which makes me question the actual popularity of BW these days. Bw isn't an ultimate game in korea but that doesn't mean its less popular than Warcraft 3 or the other games that are higher on the list. A lot of people in Korea are actually more casual watchers of the game than casual players. Warcraft 3 is more popular for playing than bw right now because of Chaos which is like the Korean version of Dota but bw is definitely more popular for watching. The thing with bw is that its more like a culture of watching than actually playing. I know people who can't even think of a single warcraft pro but they know pros like jaedong, flash, bisu, boxer and nada.
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United States32523 Posts
On August 09 2010 02:45 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
One doesn't necessarily cause the other, and in this case I don't think SC II has the kind of following yet where one big superstar could be the catalyst ala Boxer.
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The game was meant to be played differently in the US and Korea... all of my friends who have never played RTS before or only played RTS casually, bought SC2 "for the story". When I hear conversations about SC2 it's always about the campaign...and when I ask someone what league he/she is on BNET, he/she usually says "I don't play multiplayer". I think Koreans couldn't care less about Single player and unless multiplayer is going to be just as fun as BW from the start, there won't be a MASS switchover.
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On August 09 2010 02:45 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it.
have koreans seen TLO's games?
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I think Rekrul is right.
Also, its too soon to get all upset over how things are going in S. Korea with SC2. To be honest, i dont see how it could be going any better considering the situation. SC2 "replacing" SC1 in Korea is a unique situation that will take a little longer than 2 weeks to resolve.
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For the people saying that SC2 will be big for esports globally regardless of what korea does, you need to understand that the esports scene anywhere outside of korea has never been consistent.
CS1.6 was probably the most consistent game outside of korea and even that is dying off.
E-sports outside of korea has always been about short term hype and trying to make a quick buck. Whether it be some random lan boasting big prize pools, or leagues like CGS who try to bombard you with hype but have nothing of substance to actually offer. You could say MLG is still going strong, but that's because of it's console game section and sadly console games tend to require less skill than pc games due to the lack of precision needed when using a console controller compared to a keyboard and mouse.
Esports still has a long way to go for development, but if korea isn't on board at this point, all you are going to see is a couple years of forced attempts at perpetuating the notion that sc2 is an esport, and then it will eventually dwindle.
In BW you never see foreign players threaten a top korean pro because they are so dedicated to mastering the game. Even if someone outside of korea spends 12hours a day trying to master SC2 the conditions still won't be the same, so you aren't going to see that kind of mastery or evolution in SC2 unless it becomes a korean esport.
I mean people can throw themselves at a game for hours, but look at how the koreans do it. They have practice partners from every race, they are sitting there lanned with a coach analyzing their games and giving them feedback, they are in an environment that encourages, so not only are they playing a lot but they have all these tools that maximize their learning.
Where are you going to consistently get that in the US or europe?
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I lold so hard at the "shit i left my social security # at home" everyone in my house gave me a look. Nice write up I hope blizz tries to make the game more accessable
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On August 08 2010 15:40 heyoka wrote: One thing I don't necessarily agree with though is GOM's money. I don't care if GOM is the bastard stepchild of e-sports, they are willing to pump ~5 times as much money into this tournament as an OSL. History will show you that people go to the money regardless of event. The popular sports in America are the ones where the money is, we don't have good soccer players because it pays jack shit, if you're an athlete you choose the sport that gives bling. First, the prize pool is not the only expense for a tournament. Production values and cost of distribution often greatly exceeds the cost of the prizes being offered, and GomTV is clearly spent less on both with the past BW tournaments.
And I think you are drastically oversimplifying things with the statement "history will show you that people go to the money regardless of event". Unless someone is taking a loss leader to finance something they hope will succeed and make money later, the amount of money available for salaries, production, and more depends on the amount of sponsorship money available, which depends on the quality and quantity of the audience. The audience really comes first. For your soccer example, for whatever reason (culture, I would say), soccer is far less popular than many other sports in the States, which leads to less money available to pay players, etc. It's not the other way around - all sports started off with low paid players, it's only as the sports became popular that enabled the athletes involved to start getting paid well.
Also, I completely agree with Rekrul that if it becomes a successful spectator sport outside of South Korea then interest in South Korea will pick up as there's a strong competitive scene already. But I don't think it'll be easy to make it successful outside of South Korea.
Another point is that Blizzard's PC bang fee for SC2, if I'm not mistaken, was very hefty per-hour charge unlike most other games - so it's a tremendous disincentive for PC bang owners and managers to encourage players at the PC bang to play SC2.
I do think Korean Air is one of the sponsors who are trying to make SC2 successful though.
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you know what they should have done? they should have given away the game for free, then take a hefty cut from the TV advertising dollars. It would only work in Korea cuz they're the only ones that have TV advertising dollars to give. I'm willing to bet this sort of revenue model would have been more profitable if you factor in money saved from not having to do PR. Of course, such a model would have required a partnership with Kespa, but that was not meant to be.
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Can someone tell me what exactly is the sales number of SC2 in Skorea? How are some people determining that SC2 is failing in Skorea? Do you have numbers?
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On August 09 2010 08:09 kaisen wrote: Can someone tell me what exactly is the sales number of SC2 in Skorea? How are some people determining that SC2 is failing in Skorea? Do you have numbers?
From what I remember, there is an open beta going on right now in Korea. Also, Koreans who have an active WoW subscription are getting the game for free. I don't think sale numbers right now don't mean a whole lot.
On the other hand, great write up btw. I'm not surprised that it turned out this way since it's still early. I like to think optimistically that SC2 will grow over time to where BW is.
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It's a different game, not BW. Maybe Korea just isn't digging the new design in general. I think SC2 is great, but if you look at it objectively it's a fairly anti-climatic sequel.
Give it time though, when people make SC2 look exciting, korea may follow.
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wtf
mrhoon's artworks are what should be discussed not sc2 or blizzard ...
seriously ...
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Hate on Sudden Attack, its a awesome game. All the hate should be directed on Special Force.
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rekrul u know korea much better than most dumb expats living in korea do but u still dont know jack about it compared to the natives
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i know korea far better than all the natives
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On August 09 2010 07:54 d_so wrote: you know what they should have done? they should have given away the game for free, then take a hefty cut from the TV advertising dollars. It would only work in Korea cuz they're the only ones that have TV advertising dollars to give. I'm willing to bet this sort of revenue model would have been more profitable if you factor in money saved from not having to do PR. Of course, such a model would have required a partnership with Kespa, but that was not meant to be.
Acitivision-Blizzard and FREE doesn't go well with each other. Blizzard would be a different story though.
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How in the world do people not memorize their SSN? That's a bit strange...
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Hopefully Blizzard will get its act together in time, we just probably need to make our collective voices even louder than what they already are.
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On August 09 2010 14:02 Rekrul wrote: i know korea far better than all the natives
Just like how some foreigners know more about america than most americans. But that's besides the point. If I'm not mistaken, original starcraft didn't make an impact; it was the expansion, Broodwar. So who knows? Maybe by the time the Protoss one comes out, koreans would be playing sc2.
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On August 09 2010 12:24 eMbrace wrote: It's a different game, not BW. Maybe Korea just isn't digging the new design in general. I think SC2 is great, but if you look at it objectively it's a fairly anti-climatic sequel.
Love it when people use the word "objectively" to follow it up with the most subjective thing you can say.
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On August 09 2010 19:24 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 14:02 Rekrul wrote: i know korea far better than all the natives Just like how some foreigners know more about america than most americans. But that's besides the point. If I'm not mistaken, original starcraft didn't make an impact; it was the expansion, Broodwar. So who knows? Maybe by the time the Protoss one comes out, koreans would be playing sc2. Original Starcraft didn't make a huge impact, yes, but it was the game that my friends preferred to play when I was back in Kindergarden/1st Grade before BroodWar.
And yes, I lived in South Korea if you want to question on that matter.
(Sidenote: When my friend first got Starcraft, I was amazed by the idea of battlenet. I tried going online, but his internet connection was bad. At least PC Bangs had something called a LAN where we could play each other ^^* (although I was more of Rainbow Six fanatic back then))
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This was a really good read, thanks hoon.
how come it got un-featured from the main page? everyone should read this.
Also I want to know more about how well pcbang-ratings represent the success of a game on Korea. Do most koreans games still go to pcbangs for most of their gaming, or only once in a while to meet friends there or something? By 2010, don't most Korean gamers have their own computer that can run BW?
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Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been.
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On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been.
kart rider is awesome!!!
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On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been. Korean MMORPGs are pretty amazing ... Sure Blizzard might steal the spotlight with WoW but overall, Lineage 2, AION, Guild Wars are pretty common amongst gamers as well.
Though made-in-Korea FPS do suck
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On August 10 2010 12:38 nayumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been. Korean MMORPGs are pretty amazing ... Sure Blizzard might steal the spotlight with WoW but overall, Lineage 2, AION, Guild Wars are pretty common amongst gamers as well. Though made-in-Korea FPS do suck
Lineage 2 was good, Aion kind of flopped imo =/
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i was always with KESPA during the war between 2 side. glad to read this =)
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Great OP in that it presents a strong opinionated position.
Just a few points though. 1. My wife is the best, she allowed me to buy a desktop pc with a sick video card (G) just for SC2, I told her it was for research (lol, she knows I was lying but anyway...) and she even set it up for me lol. (in Korea, the wives take care of the family banking, etc, trust me, I tried to buck the tradition, but no luck).
2. Give GomTV some time, they'll get it right.
3. KESPA..I have some personal thoughts on them, but I agree with Rek, they just rode the wave and Rek being in the position that he is (meaning exposed to the inside of e-sports as well as living in Korea in a great deal of independance and range of exposure to wide spectrum of Korean life makes him quite insightful, and the fact that he is insightful already). My personal thoughts are a lot more negative that Rek's but whatever.
4. I think GomTV by opening it all up, it was the best way to go, because the pro teams are all locked up anyways and its not like GomTV can't partner up with SBS or anything (3rd largest main broadcaster of the 3 in Korea). Let things get resolved with KESPA and Blizzard/GomTV first, then lets see what happens, right now, the behind the scene, I'm sure it's coming to a resolution, BUT there are really big things happening on the GomTV side right now according to some of the Korean SC2 groups.
5. ok.. me being the casual korean gamer, and now playing for the last week hardcore (I played the beta as well) I love to play the custom money maps to relax, no stress, just play right before bed or right before I go out. And, I have to admit, its not that much fun as SCBW for the casual player,( for 1v1, fun), but I don't dream of playing it like I did with SCBW, where I'd play and play and then I'd dream about selecting mass units and having hydralisks attack me in my sleep. BUT, I think with the expansion, things will be better, I have faith in that, or maybe I should just stay away from the 4v4 maps keke.
6. SC2 will not fail in Korea, I won't let it. I'll personally arrange an huge PR event with Elky and Giyom and make a press release 'Foreign legends of SC play SC2 and where is Korea!?' It will start a national movement! In fact, i'm going to email gom to let them know I'll do that right now!
I'm just saying, I'm committed to being supportive of SC2, I just really want it to succeed in Korea and the world ^^
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On August 10 2010 15:48 MightyAtom wrote:
6. SC2 will not fail in Korea, I won't let it.
lol. I'm glad someones committed.
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
totally agreed, wub hoon <3
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been. lol no way, have you even played the games
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Can you point out some examples? People have this notion that "outside of capitalist pig america people do things for fun and not money" but I've never seen evidence of it being true. Europe doesn't have good American Football players because they can play soccer and get paid. If you were in Russia in 1980 you played chess because the state gave you money if you became good.
Two baseball players were recently drafted from India. They had never played baseball in their life, they became pitchers because they had spent their lives honing javelin throwing skills and it turns out you can also use that motion to throw a baseball fast enough to get a signing bonus.
May Indianapolis 500 race before 1995 and now.
Tony George threw a tonne of cash at the race after splitting from CART. but, it was just never the same....
racing only on ovals simply was not a complete test of the driver or the car.
Another example, is Hockey in teh Winter Olympics. the players play for no money and watch the celebration when they win. and the players adjust every aspect of their life schedules to participate...
probably the most notable example was Mario Lemieux in 1998 and 2002.
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On August 10 2010 19:13 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been. lol no way, have you even played the games
Are you saying the billion wemade ripoffs and clones are good?
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Couldn't have been said any better in plain english, damnnnnn
+ Show Spoiler +LJY sux
Spotlight this blog plz
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lol you know this is the present state right... XD? maybe you need to put a bit more dynamic thoughts in your post next time than direct logic.
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[B] 5. ok.. me being the casual korean gamer, and now playing for the last week hardcore (I played the beta as well) I love to play the custom money maps to relax, no stress, just play right before bed or right before I go out.
Unrelated, but i play money maps on BW for fun.. is there much point on SC2? MBS and mass select removed the only skill needed in the maps :p
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Great read! 5/5, would definitely read again.
I feel even more hatred towards Blizzard now. -_-x
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I don't know if I was just provoked here a lot, but you sir seem to know your sh*t. You'd think blizzard had proper understanding of what made SC1 work to do use the advertising bucks in more effective ways.
I guess computer related problems are the worst though. If it's not easily accessible in netcafes and everyone actually have to own their copies it might not look something worth looking into. Why not just skip the hassle and play good old BW? That's something they may have not been able to fix even if they made proper deals with KESPA. And it surely didn't sound like KESPA deal was even close. There are multiple problems and it's probably not possible to fix them anymore. Likely the game will be a bit of failure in Korea like WC3 was. I can't imagine SC2 having taken over SC1 in Korea in 2015 if OP's info was correct about everything.
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The fact that Aion is #1 at PC bangs from the list early in the thread only makes me feel Koreans have terrible taste in Games and liking SC:BW is merely a coincidence.
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I read the first 2 pages of this thread, and have no clue about the Korean SC scene.
But I gotta ask.
Why do you people from places like Australia, Bulgaria and the US care about how well SCII has fared in Korea?
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On August 10 2010 06:25 Ideas wrote: how come it got un-featured from the main page? everyone should read this.
TBH I've noticed TL doing everything they can to advertise SC2 (even having chill talk in a phony car salesman voice), could we be possibly seeing some censorship here?
JK
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 12 2010 15:22 nemanja1503 wrote: I read the first 2 pages of this thread, and have no clue about the Korean SC scene.
But I gotta ask.
Why do you people from places like Australia, Bulgaria and the US care about how well SCII has fared in Korea?
probably because korea has the strongest and best esports scene in the world. korean SC scene is like 1000x better than all other esports put together.
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 12 2010 16:43 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 15:22 nemanja1503 wrote: I read the first 2 pages of this thread, and have no clue about the Korean SC scene.
But I gotta ask.
Why do you people from places like Australia, Bulgaria and the US care about how well SCII has fared in Korea? probably because korea has the strongest and best esports scene in the world. korean SC scene is like 1000x better than all other esports put together.
E-sports SHALL NOT LIVE without korea
I think mister hoon is right about the fact that Blizz is trying to pass SC2 as an E-sport down our throats instead of having it be popular first
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Ah, no wonder why most korean sc2 players play cheese or 1 base builds. Their computers can't handle past midgame.
But seriously, all my rich korean friends who recently moved to the US have those mini desktops which can't be upgradeable. I'm not sure if that's the reason why - that they can't even run sc2 - but damn do they like to ignore sc2. They can afford a new computer and everything, but they're not going to do that just for sc2 if they have broodwar.
I feel that korea's been used as a pure marketing scheme to raise hype for sc2. All korea has to do now is make a starcraft ripoff, but better. Just like they did to sudden attack.
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OMG I don't know if I am happy or sad this is happening T___T
Very well written points though, and I disagree with the arguments about Korean Games sucking. Some do some dont =/ Lots of US games suck too.
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On August 12 2010 16:34 shadesofkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 06:25 Ideas wrote: how come it got un-featured from the main page? everyone should read this.
TBH I've noticed TL doing everything they can to advertise SC2 (even having chill talk in a phony car salesman voice), could we be possibly seeing some censorship here? JK + Show Spoiler + Sadly, this is probably true. Sure looks like it.
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On August 08 2010 23:26 junkacc wrote:You may think it's ok if SC2 only fails in Korea and the rest of the world sees SC2 e-sports taking off but given the track record of Activision, SC2 needs to fail for the sake of gamers everywhere.
I think this is a really important point that doesn't get brought up enough. Gamers have been getting screwed over so much with the current generation but people just keep buying what they are fed. Even I bought Starcraft 2 (though I regret it) so I am just as guilty as anyone else.
All I can say is thank god Korea is treating Starcraft 2 the way it deserves. If Starcraft 2 was called Battlespace 2 and was missing things like lan, chat, awful ladder system, had a horrible multiplayer interface and the gameplay was average you would not even hear about it.
Just like Modern Warfare 2 the game is currently selling on hype and riding the success of the name it carries and not on the gameplay and features it has which is just so sad...
Now off to play some Space Channel 5 to make myself feel better
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we shall wait 1 year and look back and see if rek is right.
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On August 09 2010 03:34 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:45 Hot_Bid wrote: I think the largest problem right now is that there are no "stars" in Korea for SC2 yet. They're all relatively unknown, and BW needed a guy like Boxer to jump start the whole thing. I feel the one thing the Korean scene does better than anyone else is establishing a connection between viewers and fans, something that is extremely difficult to do given that they're playing a computer game. It's much harder to show "personality" in esports than in regular sports.
Once SC2 gains some notable faces, or even some big BW names switch over, then the fans will follow. We don't know who SC2's "Boxer" will be -- we may not have even met him yet. But he's out there, and SC2 certainly has the foundation to succeed with someone like that promoting it. One doesn't necessarily cause the other, and in this case I don't think SC II has the kind of following yet where one big superstar could be the catalyst ala Boxer.
Julyzerg has been playing Starcraft 2 :o His alias is Fanta Prime, I dont think he is boxer material though as for as popularizing a game.
I think you guys are right though^^ Starcraft 2 has what it takes, it just needs to be promoted, more korean tournaments, etc. As far as advertising.. I am not sure if I like how they did it.
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On August 12 2010 18:12 shawster wrote: we shall wait 1 year and look back and see if rek is right.
Yeah thats what we need to do. So many of the posters in this blog sound exactly like the diehard bw fans who want nothing more than to see sc2 fail. Give it time, the game just came out, of course it wont be hugely popular right off the bat.
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On August 12 2010 21:49 Helios.Star wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 18:12 shawster wrote: we shall wait 1 year and look back and see if rek is right.
Yeah thats what we need to do. So many of the posters in this blog sound exactly like the diehard bw fans who want nothing more than to see sc2 fail. Give it time, the game just came out, of course it wont be hugely popular right off the bat. And you sound exactly like the horde of diesoft Sc2 new players who don't even know what they are talking about. Do you even read before labeling people ?
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On August 12 2010 17:15 kodancer wrote: I feel that korea's been used as a pure marketing scheme to raise hype for sc2. All korea has to do now is make a starcraft ripoff, but better. Just like they did to sudden attack. There has been one, I liked it a little, but most people were able to access Starcraft without any trouble.
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On August 12 2010 22:29 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 17:15 kodancer wrote: I feel that korea's been used as a pure marketing scheme to raise hype for sc2. All korea has to do now is make a starcraft ripoff, but better. Just like they did to sudden attack. There has been one, I liked it a little, but most people were able to access Starcraft without any trouble. Name ?
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On August 10 2010 10:20 setzer wrote: Most Korean games absolutely suck, so it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the game quality when you have such games like Kart Racer or whatever an "e-sport." Not being Korean, I don't have as much understanding as MrHoon about cultural things, but it seems to me that when Blizzard decided to fuck all the PC Bangs over, that really set a lot of Korean's off and delayed SC2 from being as popular as it could have been. Have you even played KartRider? The skill ceiling is huge in that game, and it's fun to play as a casual gamer too.
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Kart Racer > Need for Speed lol
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On August 12 2010 22:32 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 22:29 supernovamaniac wrote:On August 12 2010 17:15 kodancer wrote: I feel that korea's been used as a pure marketing scheme to raise hype for sc2. All korea has to do now is make a starcraft ripoff, but better. Just like they did to sudden attack. There has been one, I liked it a little, but most people were able to access Starcraft without any trouble. Name ? I think it was called Nova 1942 or something. Little different gameplay, but no micro/macro dependent afaik.
You really can't copy all aspects of SC. Sure, imitate it, but face huge failure.
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korea matters b/c if it weren't for korea, SC would be just like WC3 is now. small foreigner scenes in america and europe.
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On August 13 2010 07:28 ToFu. wrote: korea matters b/c if it weren't for korea, SC would be just like WC3 is now. small foreigner scenes in america and europe.
?
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United States10328 Posts
thanks for the posts mrhoon and rekrul--I'd like to see what happens in a year or two.
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It's a shame that SC2 is so intangible in Korea. Good post A+
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It'll be fine man. The two games may be able to coexist.
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Koreans have ABSOLUTELY SICK Skill Peaks for many of their games as long as they don't screw up the game play in their patches.
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Koreans are one of the most computer illiterate people on Earth Agreed... just watched an Oldboy episode where go.go. couldn't even figure out how to turn on a computer or plug his keyboard in
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i donno about koreans but personally i dont enjoy SC2 as much as SC1. my primary reasons were...
1. SC2 is too restrictive in how we can play the game 2. Custom games blow 3. No chat. Seriously, how the hell am i suppose to arrange a game with ppl I met from last game.....
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I can only speak for myself, but the reason I have SC2(gift) and don't play it is because it can't run on my computer even on the lowest settings. I don't play any other computer games besides Brood War so I can't see myself buying a new computer just for a game that I'm not in love with.
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Why isn't it on TV? They can get Jim Raynor on a jet, but they can't get some television play?
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On September 15 2010 09:15 Quasi.In.Rem wrote: Why isn't it on TV? They can get Jim Raynor on a jet, but they can't get some television play? Qook TV started streaming GSL.
But before that... GSL and OnGameNet had a contract. But due to some reasons, OGN decided NOT to broadcast GSL on TV.
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How large is Qook TV's reach? I did a little searching and it seems that last year it had around 800k subscribers, how accurate is that? Are there different packages containing a different group of channels? If so, on which channel is GSL airing?
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On September 15 2010 09:41 Zona wrote: How large is Qook TV's reach? I did a little searching and it seems that last year it had around 800k subscribers, how accurate is that? Are there different packages containing a different group of channels? If so, on which channel is GSL airing? All I know is that GSL is airing on Channel 1. I don't know the specs, pricing, etc because I have no interest in Qook TV whatsoever
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The reason Blizzard kicked out Kespa is because Kespa didn't pay shit to Blizzard even though they were making so much profit out of the game Blizzard made. Blizzard try to negotiate and gave Kespa several chances, but Kespa was so cocky and didn't even make a proposal to Blizzard(Not even meeting the president of Blizzard who came all the way from the States and telling the pro-gamers "If you meet with him we will eat you"). Gom was the only company taking the appropriate business procedures and actually paying Blizzard since SC1. Also GSL is on TV in Korea. Do you not own one???? Kespa's just spending all the money they robbed to promote to Koreans how bad SC2 is. Give SC2 and Gom some time. It's just the beginning. I surely can understand why Blizzard was so pissed off and just grabed Kespa by their neck.
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On September 16 2010 16:15 redestiny wrote: The reason Blizzard kicked out Kespa is because Kespa didn't pay shit to Blizzard even though they were making so much profit out of the game Blizzard made. Blizzard try to negotiate and gave Kespa several chances, but Kespa was so cocky and didn't even make a proposal to Blizzard(Not even meeting the president of Blizzard who came all the way from the States and telling the pro-gamers "If you meet with him we will eat you"). Gom was the only company taking the appropriate business procedures and actually paying Blizzard since SC1. Also GSL is on TV in Korea. Do you not own one???? Kespa's just spending all the money they robbed to promote to Koreans how bad SC2 is. Give SC2 and Gom some time. It's just the beginning. I surely can understand why Blizzard was so pissed off and just grabed Kespa by their neck.
I thought people posting random crap about things they don't know were getting banned now ?
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On September 16 2010 16:15 redestiny wrote: The reason Blizzard kicked out Kespa is because Kespa didn't pay shit to Blizzard even though they were making so much profit out of the game Blizzard made. Blizzard try to negotiate and gave Kespa several chances, but Kespa was so cocky and didn't even make a proposal to Blizzard(Not even meeting the president of Blizzard who came all the way from the States and telling the pro-gamers "If you meet with him we will eat you"). Gom was the only company taking the appropriate business procedures and actually paying Blizzard since SC1. Also GSL is on TV in Korea. Do you not own one???? Kespa's just spending all the money they robbed to promote to Koreans how bad SC2 is. Give SC2 and Gom some time. It's just the beginning. I surely can understand why Blizzard was so pissed off and just grabed Kespa by their neck.
Did you just create an account to write that terrible post ? Please read this thread first : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150858 Milkis made a great job, we should not have to read posts like yours anymore.
edit : boonbag is faster
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Enough about SC2 in Korea. Even w/o Korea SC2 can be success as a e-sport game. We have another country in Asia with great potential of big e-sport scene. Well, you are thinking it right. China may become a big part of the world e-sport in the next few years. I live with alot of Koreans, and all I can tell is, just like Rekrul said. Koreans can suddenly turn around and love somethings that they previously know nothing about. Thats maybe the chance for SC2 to success in Korea. Blizzard needs to make big names in BW turns to SC2 and then bang, things will settle itself down. We have July, Nada already join force into SC2. The problem is lie within SC2. From what I can see at this moment, its not as good as BW, not as fun to watch, the game somehow feel too"automatic" so little cute micro tricks are non-existence..etc. Blizzard may fail in Korea just because SC2 sucks compare to SC1 and nothing else
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At least where I'm living, I've noticed a huge increase in the number of people playing SC2 over the past month. Almost every day I go to PC bang, I'll hear a group of friends playing somewhere behind me and one guy teaching his friends what each unit does and what it counters. I've asked friends who live in other areas and they've said the same thing.
I think it's slowly catching on.
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No Korean would ever fail to remember his/her resident registration number(social security #). It would be like forgetting his own phone number. You use that number on a daily basis.
Add:
It's quite baffling to see so many of you take KESPA's side. Over here they're almost universally despised. Blizzard gets their share of criticism but not over this particular matter.
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On September 17 2010 23:35 Caphe wrote: Enough about SC2 in Korea. Even w/o Korea SC2 can be success as a e-sport game. Because there are organized e-sports infrastructure outside of Korea right?
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On September 19 2010 03:57 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 23:35 Caphe wrote: Enough about SC2 in Korea. Even w/o Korea SC2 can be success as a e-sport game. Because there are organized e-sports infrastructure outside of Korea right?
Because there was one before BW, in Korea, right?
SC2 has potential, nobody can deny that.
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United States7481 Posts
On September 18 2010 00:44 Heen wrote: At least where I'm living, I've noticed a huge increase in the number of people playing SC2 over the past month. Almost every day I go to PC bang, I'll hear a group of friends playing somewhere behind me and one guy teaching his friends what each unit does and what it counters. I've asked friends who live in other areas and they've said the same thing.
I think it's slowly catching on. do you think it's related to GSL at all?
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On August 08 2010 15:45 Waffles wrote: mrhoon is a art prodigy. this. mrhoon have my babies!!!
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
i think you forgot to address one issue though.
Blizzard's trying to push forward this game as an ESPORTS material right from the start. that's where they've gone wrong. they're rushing too fast, shoving it in people's face and going "PLAY THIS OR DIE". i can't think of a single game where the game was created to be "competitive ESPORTS-rank" game right from the start.
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100% Agreed. What's sad is, if you mentioned this on the battle.net forums, everyone would be
"LOLNOSC2ISASPORTLOLNOOBGTFOGTFO"
But you make a very very solid point. Blizzard is fucking up with SC2. That much is a fact.
See, Brood war was a product. Brood war was something that if you bought, you knew you OWNED that product (well not the rights to the distributation and sales of the product but you get my gist). Everything about BW was, "I'm accessible. You paid money for me, and you get to keep me". That's what it should be. However, SC2 is, "You paid money for me. Even then, blizz owns your copy of this product, not you. If they want, they can stop you from ever setting foot in multiplayer. No, you cannot give your copy to your friends. No, you cannot play with your friends."
It's sorta sickening. D:
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Is it just me, or are numbers 1, 2, and 4 all basically the same thing? Pretty sure 3 and 5 could easily be wrapped into one as well.
Overall I found this article non-compelling. It seems more like a pro-kespa rant than anything else... meanwhile pros are announcing their transition to SC2 and the game is actually taking off relatively quickly. I don't think it's realistic to have expected BW to insta-disappear. Considering the long history of the game, the transition is actually happening very quickly. Remember, we are only TWO MONTHS in.
Do you know how long it takes people to change almost anything? Transitioning from mail to e-mail, banking to online banking, standard TV to HD TV, DVD to BlueRay... and we're talking about an entire audience changing games. That just won't happen overnight...
The writer states that he hopes to impact Blizzard, but offers up no viable suggestions. You can't realistically change the fact that SC2 requires better computers, that people are slow to transition to new games, or that it takes a while for people to jump from one gaming career to the next. All of the points in the article are after-the-fact observations/complaints that don't actually help much.
In a year or two from now, this post is going to look silly (more so than it already does).
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I agree with most of the claims and assumptions made in the OP. No, I don't live in Korea, but I am Korean (duh) and have Korean friends (also duh) and that's generally the impression I get, the game (SC2) is pretty good but it's so damn inaccessible.
A lot of people are discarding one of the major driving point of this blog: Korean culture and how you're brought up. Now, I know if you're Asian you'd half-understand, but unless you grew up under traditional Korean household, you do not fully understand. Just because e-sports is prominent in Korea does not make your parents flexible and understanding. Still a majority of Korean parents think gaming is the root of all evil in this world and will prevent their children from playing it.
Reinforcing what the OP said, even the majority of gamer-friends of mine do NOT know how to build a computer from scratch. They're great at gaming, sure, but once it comes to specs and whatnot, their idea is to "buy a computer with the graphic card of higher number" (which I guess sort of works, lol). The point is, at this point, although my friends are interested in playing SC2 (and watch some of it through GSL and whatnot), once it comes down to just gaming with friends, SCBW is so much more accessible since 1) it runs virtually on any computer now and 2) there is LAN.
*edit: 5/5. Great job OP. Also, the last skit ending in WOOHOO made me want to make babies in sims 2... lolol
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Really informative. I use my computer mostly for word processing, so I don't need/can't justify a big powerful computer... I can't buy a $2000 computer just because Blizzard thinks their new game is awesome. I think on that level, it affects all people who are not hardcore gamers (for whatever reason).
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On September 22 2010 02:10 rick-dmg wrote:
Do you know how long it takes people to change almost anything? Transitioning from mail to e-mail, banking to online banking, standard TV to HD TV, DVD to BlueRay... and we're talking about an entire audience changing games. That just won't happen overnight...
In a year or two from now, this post is going to look silly (more so than it already does).
Yea but going from Broodwar to SC2 is like lowering the nets in professional basketball and making the rims wider. Sure it's change but.. why? It's not like Broodwar was getting old or losing popularity. (Although I'm getting sick of Flashimba)
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The n°1 problem of SC pro gaming in Korea atm is that Flash happens to have .000 charisma !
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On September 22 2010 17:25 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Yea but going from Broodwar to SC2 is like lowering the nets in professional basketball and making the rims wider. Sure it's change but.. why? It's not like Broodwar was getting old or losing popularity. (Although I'm getting sick of Flashimba)
Change is good. Just because something isn't "losing popularity" doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. The typewriter wasn't loosing popularity, but whoever thought to innovate and create computers made a good decision. The horse and buggy wasn't loosing popularity, but I'm glad we have cars today. Same can be said for most other important innovations.
Point is, with modern graphics, added features for commentating, and a refreshed experience - SC2 is far more likely to make the game even MORE popular. Not just in Korea, but in the entire worldwide eSports scene. As popular as it may be in Korea, there are huge un-tapped areas for growth - and BW hasn't been able to make any significant progress there.
People holding onto SC:BW remind me of old people that refuse to learn how to use a computer, get a cellphone, or take advantage of any other recent innovation. They are stuck in the past and don't want to learn a new game because of the "sunk costs" invested in the outdated game.
Get over it, all those hours you spent learning BW are pointless if you can't apply that skill set to something more modern. More and more pros are realizing the transition isn't that bad, but others just want to hold on to an old game - like it's some investment that will cash out in the future . It's won't... time to move on and keep up with the times.
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United States7481 Posts
On September 22 2010 13:40 Chef wrote: Really informative. I use my computer mostly for word processing, so I don't need/can't justify a big powerful computer... I can't buy a $2000 computer just because Blizzard thinks their new game is awesome. I think on that level, it affects all people who are not hardcore gamers (for whatever reason). you can run sc2 on a computer that costs $400 monitor included
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On September 25 2010 07:54 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 13:40 Chef wrote: Really informative. I use my computer mostly for word processing, so I don't need/can't justify a big powerful computer... I can't buy a $2000 computer just because Blizzard thinks their new game is awesome. I think on that level, it affects all people who are not hardcore gamers (for whatever reason). you can run sc2 on a computer that costs $400 monitor included
Agreed, and for just $1000 you can run it at max settings with decent FPS.
But that aside, great post by OP, very interesting for a non-Korean who had no idea what was going on there.
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"Koreans are one of the most computer illiterate people on Earth"
This post is so money because it's so freaking true.
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thread will turn around since boxers going to play SC2 competitively.
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On September 29 2010 11:49 Licmyobelisk wrote: thread will turn around since boxers going to play SC2 competitively. just a rumor
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Baltimore, USA22222 Posts
MrHoon -
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Good read ... now everything started to make sense to me ...
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On September 29 2010 12:10 Terrakin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 11:49 Licmyobelisk wrote: thread will turn around since boxers going to play SC2 competitively. just a rumor what word is the opposite of clairvoyance?
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Has the SC2 scene significantly changed since you 1st posted this?
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On October 22 2010 10:16 Aegeis wrote: Has the SC2 scene significantly changed since you 1st posted this?
Yes, just read it and saw that you actually wrote it some months before. I'm really curious if the situation changed, and if Nadas and Boxers switch had an impact on the popularity of sc2?
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Sorry for the bump. It's almost a year ago since the OP wrote this, and I think it's a really interesting question that I just stumbled upon randomly. I really hope you mods agree that bumping is better than starting a new thread How much has the situation changed this past year? Has SC2s popularity increased as much in Korea as in the western world? How are the Korean commentators? Are they still objectively bad, or is the general opinion something else? How's the SC2 scene going compared to brood war? Is people who started playing SC2 at release starting to go back to BW? Has the e-sports approach actually hurt the game? I know it's one of the things that drew me personally to it. Maybe BW and SC2 are complimenting eachother, rather than sharing and competing over the same audience. Would be really nice with answeres, especially from Koreans or people who knows something about the situation. Thanks in advance and much love to you all ♥
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No LAN support is the worse decision blizzard made for sc2. it made the game so unaccessible
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On July 03 2011 09:41 KingofHearts wrote: No LAN support is the worse decision blizzard made for sc2. it made the game so unaccessible
No future games will have LAN implement due to piracy.
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On July 04 2011 04:07 s.a.y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 09:41 KingofHearts wrote: No LAN support is the worse decision blizzard made for sc2. it made the game so unaccessible No future games will have LAN implement due to piracy.
Are you referring to Blizzard games or otherwise? Because plenty of games being released today have LAN...
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I would just like to say one thing....GOM is bad and it makes me sad. The new show with hong jin ho "project A" sounds awesome to me (KTF!!! HONG JIN HO!!! WOOOO!!) i even stayed up till 6am to watch it. But the comic book like summations were lack luster to say the least and the translations were pitiful. When will GOMTV get a translator who can translate everything effectively and account for nuance in korean speech and translate it effectively to english. IF foreigners are the majority of the fanbase for GSL and sc2 then why not get a proper translator for everything. -_- holy check.
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3861 Posts
On August 13 2011 09:13 GreenTae wrote: I would just like to say one thing....GOM is bad and it makes me sad. The new show with hong jin ho "project A" sounds awesome to me (KTF!!! HONG JIN HO!!! WOOOO!!) i even stayed up till 6am to watch it. But the comic book like summations were lack luster to say the least and the translations were pitiful. When will GOMTV get a translator who can translate everything effectively and account for nuance in korean speech and translate it effectively to english. IF foreigners are the majority of the fanbase for GSL and sc2 then why not get a proper translator for everything. -_- holy check.
They won't hire a fluent English/Korean speaker just for the purpose of translating. They will have them have more responsibilities to get their money's worth. They want the most amount of work/service/slavery on the least amount of money so obviously it will be hard to get a bilingual person who would be willing to do it for less than they can make than, say, teaching English in Korea.
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Although nobody will read this, the bigger prize pool would be pretty important to me if I was competing. I would like to see the prize pool there, and get some new people in the mix to fix the problems that Gom has. Great read, and hopefully people with power read it too and agree and make some changes.
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It's too bad, because of the money being injected into SC2, SC2 will generate aspiring gamers who aim to play on a professional level, but they don't have enough casuals interested without television. SC2 will have the players but not the audience. With time though, that will may change.
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On August 09 2010 01:16 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 01:07 Rekrul wrote:On August 08 2010 23:29 Milkis wrote:First of all, even if they don't sell everyone copies of their new game right away, one thing they do is plant it in their memories for later. 1) Like Starcraft 2 won't be in their memories even without all the advertisment? 2) That's all well said if the memories are good or even neutral. Where's the guarantee that it'll be actually a positive memory? 3) If they're not going to pay for it when it's free right now, why do you think they may pay for it later? Secondly Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Again, why would there be a "fad" for SC2? Is there any reason other than "Nationalism" or the unlikely scenario of Boxer swapping to promote SC2? There's a lot of variables that needs to be there for a fad to start and SC2 does not meet many of them. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before (this has been demonstrated time and time again with olympics and yes I realize you can't really compare gaming to olympics realistically but it does show the Koreans' incliations). Imagine a Korean team winning the first worldwide tournament. Blizzard will be saying 'Gg KESPA' as shelves at gamestores are emptied. Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2. Doesn't mean Koreans can't recognize trash. Yeah, D-War sold well, but.... I'm sure every Korean knows how trashy it was. Yeah, we all know how Kim Yu-na singlehandedly saved Figure Skating in Korea. But remember, she's a special exception. There's a lot of events Korea has been constantly winning in Olympics and there isn't much interest in them. There wasn't a sudden boom of Handball after the Women's team won back then. Kim Yu-na is literally called "Korea's national daughter". No one is going to be saying anything remotely to that for Starcraft 2. Yeah, Koreans in Starcraft 2 can win as many events as they want. But I honestly doubt anyone is going to start picking it up just cause Korea won some tournament. What actually matters is people putting together quality content for Starcraft 2, to have casuals watch it and go "Hey this is kinda fun to watch". GomTV is the worst candidate in the world to make that happen. You're also wrong about sponsors. The reason why people sponsor Starcraft is that it connects them with the younger generations that actually watch Starcraft. Corporations have to be absolute fools to advertise aiming only at the small minority who would play Starcraft 2, no matter how big it gets in the foreign world. Do you really think casuals will play and watch Starcraft 2 a year down the line? Doubtful. There's very little reasons why there'll be sponsors even if it becomes big outside Korea. Why would that mean KOREAN COMPANIES sponsor them just because it's popular out of Korea? Why does that mean it "crawls" back into the mainstream? It just means that a few highly competitive players will be keep playing the game, it doesnt mean that casuals will watch it and enjoy it -_- You underestimate many things. Look back at this thread in a year and we'll see whos right <--- Me. Right in terms of what? Either way, anything I say will "change" based on new Blizzard/Gretech Policies so it'll be hard to tell. If we're simply going to see who's right on "Korean Nationalism" saving SC2, then.... yeah, we'll see
Who's right?
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5003 Posts
I am
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I am interested in how this turned out. If MrHoon or Rekrul or Milki's can give an indication? From what I understand, BW contracts have expired now, and so far I have yet to see any BW names I recognize (I know none besides the occasional power ranking i read) switching over. I also hear the Korean GM are like 100 ppl, with the remaining hundred accounts being about one of 7 different ppl's smurfs (MKP has 5 or sumthing I heard once :D ).
So yeah, how is the Korean situation now?
Also, where is the promised follow up by MrHoon? :D Love reading scandal ^^
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5003 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:40 TheEconomist wrote: I am interested in how this turned out. If MrHoon or Rekrul or Milki's can give an indication? From what I understand, BW contracts have expired now, and so far I have yet to see any BW names I recognize (I know none besides the occasional power ranking i read) switching over. I also hear the Korean GM are like 100 ppl, with the remaining hundred accounts being about one of 7 different ppl's smurfs (MKP has 5 or sumthing I heard once :D ).
So yeah, how is the Korean situation now?
Also, where is the promised follow up by MrHoon? :D Love reading scandal ^^
Around last October/nov, Fomos/DES started dropping heavy hints about how Proleague could pick up StarCraft 2. Since then, popularity of the games started to increase a bit. Still nothing compared to BW though.
Gom said that "there are no negotiations" around back then but they shut up about that since then, implying there has been a negotiation process. If KeSPA gets it, the entire scene will swap over. They set up PL for exactly that purpose. KeSPA players are practicing SC2 on the side atm to prepare for the switch, some more than the others.
So KeSPA is preparing 100% switch to SC2. They can't get anymore sponsors with BW, since it's gotten miles harder since the IP rights scandal Blizzard pulled. Sponsors also started pulling out sending negative signals, so it's harder at this point to keep a BW league going. They need something new. That something new will be LoL, unless Gom/KeSPA negotiates successfully. If Gom's the only person running SC2 then SC2 in Korea *will* fail within this year.
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Thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.
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Canada7115 Posts
The problem is that KeSPA and OGN are planning to switch to LoL instead. LoL is free, Riot isn't extorting tournament organizers for money like Blizzard, and Riot actually has one-click tournament stream links with their online UI unlike Battle.net.
I really want SC2 to succeed and become huge, but Blizzard seems to just not care and are sabotaging it instead of doing what Riot is doing to promote LoL.
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I never knew that koreans were computer illiterate. Today I learned :O
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So how will starcraft 2 be with the Kespa players switching to SC2 ? Will it become huge like broodwar ? It may take time, but I believe it will become more popular in Korea.
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huh...I was told that GOMTV was televised on some unpopular TV channel that everybody hates.
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On July 20 2012 06:06 Cinquedea wrote: huh...I was told that GOMTV was televised on some unpopular TV channel that everybody hates.
Anibox, iirc.
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Wonder if the situation is improving now with the osl including sc2 games.
Would like to see blizzard change their business model, stop charging per copy of sc2 and make it free to play. Shifting to in game advertising or something instead. Also blizzard charging kespa money for kespa helping making blizzard games popular is just not right.
Either that or for another company to make a sc2 like game. Blizzard needs to get a clue or they are history. Just my 2 cents.
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