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What is the real world but what we perceive? - Page 2

Blogs > zhul4nder
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Lexpar
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
1813 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 22:38:31
July 22 2010 21:41 GMT
#21
Dude not to hate but I fucking hate this. By extnesion, I'm starting to hate you. You must be a real deep thinker, a visionary, for only man kinds brightest stars regurgitate other peoples ideas on the internet without any sense of context, solely in the hopes that others will find them smart. It didn't work on me.

Edit:

On July 23 2010 06:27 ella_guru wrote:
I'm going to make an educated guess - you think that talking about this stuff gives a sense of character and style/


Always one step ahead Ela.

User was warned for this post
zhul4nder
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States189 Posts
July 22 2010 22:52 GMT
#22
On July 23 2010 06:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +



How can something such as the concept of a circle be more or less real than what we sense? What is real is real. Child B is not wrong in associating the circle with the ball. A circle is an integral part of a sphere: if one were to take an infinitely small slice of a sphere, what you would have is the circle. In fact, a sphere is made of infinite circles.
Then what about child A? A hula-hoop most certainly does not represent a circle as we image it. It's a doughnut. If you are to go down to the true fundamentals of rationalism, we should not have any idea of what a true circle is at all because nothing we experience is actually a perfect circle.



Having these abstract concepts existing outside of our perception doesn't mean they can't coexist with what we sense. Here's a thought experiment for yourself.
Can you think of the concept of three without associating symbols that represent three? Either you think of "3" as the symbol or three sticks to represent it, rationality is totally dependent on the senses. Only in combination of both rational and empirical knowledge does what's real come to surface.


Semantics about the two items aside, my point is this.

There is a definite reality. That reality is what would exist if we didn't. This is the most basic and concrete reality of our universe.

Humans (and to our knowledge no other creatures) are capable of an incredible thing - creativity. Our mind can mold our perceptions and ideas to mean so many different things. To me, this is a completely separate zone in comparison to reality - what exists outside of us.

The quantity "3" exists outside of us in the universe. Our language and representation of it does not.


How would you prove that reality exists with or without us? Everything you perceive could be nothing but an elaborate dream. There is nothing basic about reality at all. It completely depends on the perceiver. To you, your reality consists of this concrete universe that can exist without your acknowledgment. That's fine. But can you really say that reality is the same for another person without the ability to sense anything around them? What is concreteness? Unchanging? Sensible? Nothing in reality is completely concrete as you may suppose. It's always changing depending on our views and experiences.

*sigh* you're such a socratic. How is what we call creativity truly ours if every abstract concept already exists outside of us? Creativity in your view is simply realizing some formation of what has already been. So in a sense, there is no such thing as creativity.

Regarding the number 3 exercise, it doesn't matter if the concept of 3 exists outside of us. Your realization of the number 3 can only come into existence by acknowledging symbols learned from your sensible world. Reality is not real to you unless you perceive it, through both rational means and through your senses.

Are you trying to argue that reality is the same for everyone in that 'unseen' land where 3 exists?


@ Lexpar
You've got a huge e-penis. You're better than me because you insult me because I'm trying to have some kind of response to my essay. I will promptly drown myself in my filth.
beat me. hard.
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
July 22 2010 23:22 GMT
#23
Well, everything we know is inside our head, we just have to assume that the outside stimuli we are receiving from the world correspond to what we think they are, but that's not such a bad assumption to make in the first place.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
July 23 2010 02:11 GMT
#24


How would you prove that reality exists with or without us? Everything you perceive could be nothing but an elaborate dream. There is nothing basic about reality at all. It completely depends on the perceiver. To you, your reality consists of this concrete universe that can exist without your acknowledgment. That's fine. But can you really say that reality is the same for another person without the ability to sense anything around them? What is concreteness? Unchanging? Sensible? Nothing in reality is completely concrete as you may suppose. It's always changing depending on our views and experiences.

*sigh* you're such a socratic. How is what we call creativity truly ours if every abstract concept already exists outside of us? Creativity in your view is simply realizing some formation of what has already been. So in a sense, there is no such thing as creativity.

Regarding the number 3 exercise, it doesn't matter if the concept of 3 exists outside of us. Your realization of the number 3 can only come into existence by acknowledging symbols learned from your sensible world. Reality is not real to you unless you perceive it, through both rational means and through your senses.

Are you trying to argue that reality is the same for everyone in that 'unseen' land where 3 exists?


@ Lexpar
You've got a huge e-penis. You're better than me because you insult me because I'm trying to have some kind of response to my essay. I will promptly drown myself in my filth.


All I see in this is human arrogance. We aren't the masters of the universe - we're one pathetic pinprick in an absolutely massive place of existence. Existence isn't dictated by what we can see. Just because we aren't intelligent enough to prove some things outside of our perceptions doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This kind of arrogance is why I hate some types of philosophy.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
July 23 2010 02:47 GMT
#25
There was recently a thread within the last month asking us to define reality. Quite a few pages iirc.
Vi)Chris
Profile Joined January 2003
United States700 Posts
July 23 2010 02:48 GMT
#26
I always found that having philosophical discussions online didn't work. The truth of the matter is that most of these discussions have been going on for hundreds of years and are incredibly complex, something that doesn't translate well on a forum where the amount of communication is limited and without context. Extremely educated people with doctorates in philosophy argue these points today, so coming up with an "answer" without strong knowledge about the topics isn't going to happen, I think. Of course, if people just want to exchange opinions in an illuminating way, that is fine, but it seems like most people try to argue how right they are in a analytic sense.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
Scorcher2k
Profile Joined November 2009
United States802 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-23 02:54:27
July 23 2010 02:50 GMT
#27
On July 23 2010 05:58 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 03:43 Scorcher2k wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:31 zhul4nder wrote:
lol, we did actually study Nietzsche...and I don't see how you would be depressed learning his philosophy...

I've read some good quotes of Nietzsche but one that I really remember had to do with him claiming that his own philosophy wasn't good for the pursuit of happiness in life. When you really get into it and understand the total scope of it, it is very very depressing lol.

So you've never actually studied Nietzsche.

I don't understand how what I said would indicate that and really posting that one liner is very condescending. This is the attitude that I would expect when I play LoL, not posting on TL...

Zhul4nder, if your class never made mention of John Searle/chinese room experiment I would recommend checking that out. I would throw out some other things to read surrounding the subject but it's been quite a while so my vocabulary is really lacking.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
July 23 2010 03:00 GMT
#28
This looks like a very standard Intro to Modern Philosophy paper and, to be honest, it's not a great one. :/ Before I go on, can I ask what grade you got on it? D:
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-23 03:13:42
July 23 2010 03:12 GMT
#29
All I see in this is human arrogance. We aren't the masters of the universe - we're one pathetic pinprick in an absolutely massive place of existence. Existence isn't dictated by what we can see. Just because we aren't intelligent enough to prove some things outside of our perceptions doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This kind of arrogance is why I hate some types of philosophy.

But how do you know? Your only evidence comes from your senses. Just because you see something doesn't mean that it's there, and vice versa.
Essentially, it's one of these things that you can never really be sure about. How did time start? No one knows. Is the world you see 'real'? No one knows. There's no way to be sure. Even if God himself appears before you, levitating on a cloud of pure power showing you the majesty of the skies you couldn't be sure. Who's to say that it isn't a dream?
You can't be certain of anything, except for ideas (numbers, etc.). You're right in one sense, though, because speculating about it is pretty pointless. It's less arrogance than a lack of perspective.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-23 04:09:04
July 23 2010 03:58 GMT
#30
On July 23 2010 11:50 Scorcher2k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 05:58 koreasilver wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:43 Scorcher2k wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:31 zhul4nder wrote:
lol, we did actually study Nietzsche...and I don't see how you would be depressed learning his philosophy...

I've read some good quotes of Nietzsche but one that I really remember had to do with him claiming that his own philosophy wasn't good for the pursuit of happiness in life. When you really get into it and understand the total scope of it, it is very very depressing lol.

So you've never actually studied Nietzsche.

I don't understand how what I said would indicate that

"I've read some good quotes of Nietzsche"

Iif you really look into Nietzsche it isn't depressing at all. It is extremely joyous. Also, talking about really understanding the total scope of anything off of "reading some good quotes" is pretty preposterous, even with Nietzsche who loved aphorisms.
Scorcher2k
Profile Joined November 2009
United States802 Posts
July 23 2010 04:28 GMT
#31
On July 23 2010 12:58 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 11:50 Scorcher2k wrote:
On July 23 2010 05:58 koreasilver wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:43 Scorcher2k wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:31 zhul4nder wrote:
lol, we did actually study Nietzsche...and I don't see how you would be depressed learning his philosophy...

I've read some good quotes of Nietzsche but one that I really remember had to do with him claiming that his own philosophy wasn't good for the pursuit of happiness in life. When you really get into it and understand the total scope of it, it is very very depressing lol.

So you've never actually studied Nietzsche.

I don't understand how what I said would indicate that

"I've read some good quotes of Nietzsche"

Iif you really look into Nietzsche it isn't depressing at all. It is extremely joyous. Also, talking about really understanding the total scope of anything off of "reading some good quotes" is pretty preposterous, even with Nietzsche who loved aphorisms.

Yes, meaning that besides just reading his philosophy that I've also seen some good quotes... Many MANY people find Nietzsche to be extremely depressing (the majority of people I have talked to and read from). Twisting my words to try to make it sound as if I somehow equate quotes to an entirety or fundamentality of something is kind of rediculous. It should be very obvious that I did not mean that "reading some good quotes" is the same as understanding Nietzsche so I'm left again just thinking that you are attempting to be as condescending as possible.
zhul4nder
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States189 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-23 06:58:57
July 23 2010 06:52 GMT
#32
On July 23 2010 12:00 Jibba wrote:
This looks like a very standard Intro to Modern Philosophy paper and, to be honest, it's not a great one. :/ Before I go on, can I ask what grade you got on it? D:


what makes it a bad one? D: I dunno what I will get on it because it's the last paper.
beat me. hard.
IronMonocle
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada142 Posts
July 23 2010 07:34 GMT
#33
Existentialism might possibly be the most onerous imposition of life. The need to ask why, to find some explanation. An insect lacks knowledge of the world around him in the same way as a human being lacks the understanding of his universe. Mankind simply does not have the intelligence to make certain deductions on the matter. Man has even attempted to bridge this cleft of knowledge through the idea of greater beings or all knowing "god(s)". This is clearly evidence of mans desperate need of explanation.
Can a being who exists solely in a second dimensional world even begin to grasp the concept of a third? Is nothing something? Who is to say what is and what is not? As such, debating existentialism accomplishes little.
My armor is contempt. My shield is disgust. My sword is hatred.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
July 24 2010 09:33 GMT
#34
On July 23 2010 15:52 zhul4nder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 12:00 Jibba wrote:
This looks like a very standard Intro to Modern Philosophy paper and, to be honest, it's not a great one. :/ Before I go on, can I ask what grade you got on it? D:


what makes it a bad one? D: I dunno what I will get on it because it's the last paper.

I guess I have to ask what the prompt was first.

I think the interpretations of rationalism vs. empiricism are short and not fully explained. Maybe I just have issue with some of the writing too. You made some of the points you needed to make, I just thought the stuff around them comes off as assumptions or blanket statements. Like, on the practical level I have to agree with you about requiring both, but without really explaining why, you're actually not giving credit to Descartes' foundationalism. I think you believe your statements are true based on your own empiricism, and you're writing about it as if they're unquestionably true, while at the same time trying to support rationalism.

To put it briefly, you're inferring that inferences and deductions are both necessary (for what?).
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17731 Posts
July 24 2010 11:35 GMT
#35
A bit nitpicky, but I think a lot more people would read your post op if you spaced your paragraphs. Or maybe its just me...
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
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