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Circuit Help

Blogs > SilverSkyLark
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SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 09:28:40
June 30 2010 09:22 GMT
#1
Ok, this was supposed to be an easy laboratory experiment, which is actually more of a simulation, but I haven't figured it out for some reason.

So we were asked to simulate this circuit over at LT SpiceIV:
[image loading]

Tapping the voltage probe above the capacitor and tapping the current probe on the capacitor will give the following graph:
[image loading]
(V(n003) means the voltage at node 3)

Analysis would be easy as this is a second order circuit, but we (me and my classmates) were rather puzzled as these were the questions that came after the instructed simulation:

1. Generate the 1st order ordinary linear differential equations (ODE) for Fig. 1. Solve for V(n003) the voltage across capacitor.

2. Transform your 1st order system of linear ODEs into Laplace Transform and solve for L{Vn003)}. Then solve for L-1(Vn003) to get V(n003).

3. Compare your results in item 1 with item 2.

4. Derive the current across the capacitor.

5. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot V(n003). Compare your result with Fig 3 V(n003).

6. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot I(C1). Compare your result with Fig 3 I(C1).


You might be surprised as well because we were asked for a first order ODE, when the circuit clearly is a second order ODE. The second order ODE can be obtained by using KVL around the circuit, giving:

4i + Li' + i/C integral(i dt) = 9

and differentiating every term to remove the integral gives:

Li'' + 4i' + i/C = 0

substituting values from the circuit:

i'' + 4i' + 4i = 0

Solving for the natural response and the forced response (which will be useless since r(x) is 0) would then give:

i(t) = Ae^-2t + Bte^-2t

If it was the usual ODE question, values of i(0) and i'(0) would be given in order to solve for constants A and B. But in this setup, you'll only manage to get i(0) and i'(0) will be hard to find. Now you may ask why am I solving for the current when number 1 asks for the voltage across the capacitor - since the current is constant (series circuit), I can solve for it then simply plug the equation of the constant into the voltage equation for a capacitor then there I have it.

I guess what our professor wants is an ODE that would give the curve for the voltage (duh)...

Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).

If anyone has a clue on how I'm supposed to get a first order ODE to get the voltage please do help. I'm feeling really stupid here because I'm starting to get the feeling that this is supposed to be real easy.


P.S. the DC Steady State would also work fine, it will give the voltage across the capacitor at t = 0- and t = 0+ but it won't give the curve we want.

*
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 10:17 GMT
#2
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1319 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 10:32:00
June 30 2010 10:21 GMT
#3
still working on the other parts as i need to refresh my memory of how analogue components work :D but for now:

On June 30 2010 18:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:


Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).



nah on second order laplace transforms

y(t)+ dy(t)/dt + d2y(t)/dt2 = x(t)+ dx(t)/dt + d2x(t)/dt2

just transforms nicely into Y(s) + sY(s) + s2Y(s) = X(s) + sX(s) + s2X(s) without needing all the x' and x'' terms.

edit: actually maybe take that with a grain of salt, i just realised it might be that we implicitly always assume it will be intially 0 in control systems.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 11:51:36
June 30 2010 11:49 GMT
#4
On June 30 2010 19:17 JacobDaKung wrote:
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.

What two different equations?
The Current equation for the Capacitor and the Voltage equation for the Inductor?

Sorry I'm really lost for some reason..:|


and yes the Laplace Transform looks nice...the only problem is that the right side of the transform is zero..
Y(s^2 + 4s + 4) = 0..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 13:06:40
June 30 2010 12:56 GMT
#5
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:01 GMT
#6
On June 30 2010 21:56 15vs1 wrote:
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.

How do I break down the 2nd order ODE into two 1st order ones?

And yes, if i'(0) = 0 (but still the value of i'(0) is not given, though i(0) = 0), it would mean that there was infinite amount of current that passed through the circuit when the switch was turned on - which is a physical impossibility because of the conservation of charge.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
June 30 2010 13:29 GMT
#7
In your case we have equation i'' + 4i' + 4i = 9*delta(t), delta(t)-delta function (your equation with 0 in the right part is viable only for steady case). Lets say y1=i, y2=i' then we have 2 ODE
y2' + 4y2 + 4y1 = n(t)
y1'=y2

and the initial conditions is i(0)=i'(0)=0.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:36 GMT
#8
*mind blown*
I think I just found the reason not to pass the lab report tomorrow.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 16:52 GMT
#9
Back from work, seems like 15vs1 said all before me
GL y0 !
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 01 2010 02:25 GMT
#10
Ok I'm an idiot, you can solve the 2nd order ode without figuring out the value of i'(0) by simple observation..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
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