• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 07:27
CET 13:27
KST 21:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC28[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
Greetings.. No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery BW General Discussion Recommended BW Settings for Mouse and Video Starcraft:Brood War Discord Servers [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League Bisu's Team vs Shuttle's Team 2026-11-14 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [BSL23] Ro16 Group C - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Simple Questions, Simple Answers Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Can Game Data Analytics Help Players Improvements
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9891 users

Circuit Help

Blogs > SilverSkyLark
Post a Reply
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 09:28:40
June 30 2010 09:22 GMT
#1
Ok, this was supposed to be an easy laboratory experiment, which is actually more of a simulation, but I haven't figured it out for some reason.

So we were asked to simulate this circuit over at LT SpiceIV:
[image loading]

Tapping the voltage probe above the capacitor and tapping the current probe on the capacitor will give the following graph:
[image loading]
(V(n003) means the voltage at node 3)

Analysis would be easy as this is a second order circuit, but we (me and my classmates) were rather puzzled as these were the questions that came after the instructed simulation:

1. Generate the 1st order ordinary linear differential equations (ODE) for Fig. 1. Solve for V(n003) the voltage across capacitor.

2. Transform your 1st order system of linear ODEs into Laplace Transform and solve for L{Vn003)}. Then solve for L-1(Vn003) to get V(n003).

3. Compare your results in item 1 with item 2.

4. Derive the current across the capacitor.

5. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot V(n003). Compare your result with Fig 3 V(n003).

6. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot I(C1). Compare your result with Fig 3 I(C1).


You might be surprised as well because we were asked for a first order ODE, when the circuit clearly is a second order ODE. The second order ODE can be obtained by using KVL around the circuit, giving:

4i + Li' + i/C integral(i dt) = 9

and differentiating every term to remove the integral gives:

Li'' + 4i' + i/C = 0

substituting values from the circuit:

i'' + 4i' + 4i = 0

Solving for the natural response and the forced response (which will be useless since r(x) is 0) would then give:

i(t) = Ae^-2t + Bte^-2t

If it was the usual ODE question, values of i(0) and i'(0) would be given in order to solve for constants A and B. But in this setup, you'll only manage to get i(0) and i'(0) will be hard to find. Now you may ask why am I solving for the current when number 1 asks for the voltage across the capacitor - since the current is constant (series circuit), I can solve for it then simply plug the equation of the constant into the voltage equation for a capacitor then there I have it.

I guess what our professor wants is an ODE that would give the curve for the voltage (duh)...

Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).

If anyone has a clue on how I'm supposed to get a first order ODE to get the voltage please do help. I'm feeling really stupid here because I'm starting to get the feeling that this is supposed to be real easy.


P.S. the DC Steady State would also work fine, it will give the voltage across the capacitor at t = 0- and t = 0+ but it won't give the curve we want.

*
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 10:17 GMT
#2
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 10:32:00
June 30 2010 10:21 GMT
#3
still working on the other parts as i need to refresh my memory of how analogue components work :D but for now:

On June 30 2010 18:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:


Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).



nah on second order laplace transforms

y(t)+ dy(t)/dt + d2y(t)/dt2 = x(t)+ dx(t)/dt + d2x(t)/dt2

just transforms nicely into Y(s) + sY(s) + s2Y(s) = X(s) + sX(s) + s2X(s) without needing all the x' and x'' terms.

edit: actually maybe take that with a grain of salt, i just realised it might be that we implicitly always assume it will be intially 0 in control systems.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 11:51:36
June 30 2010 11:49 GMT
#4
On June 30 2010 19:17 JacobDaKung wrote:
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.

What two different equations?
The Current equation for the Capacitor and the Voltage equation for the Inductor?

Sorry I'm really lost for some reason..:|


and yes the Laplace Transform looks nice...the only problem is that the right side of the transform is zero..
Y(s^2 + 4s + 4) = 0..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 13:06:40
June 30 2010 12:56 GMT
#5
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:01 GMT
#6
On June 30 2010 21:56 15vs1 wrote:
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.

How do I break down the 2nd order ODE into two 1st order ones?

And yes, if i'(0) = 0 (but still the value of i'(0) is not given, though i(0) = 0), it would mean that there was infinite amount of current that passed through the circuit when the switch was turned on - which is a physical impossibility because of the conservation of charge.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
June 30 2010 13:29 GMT
#7
In your case we have equation i'' + 4i' + 4i = 9*delta(t), delta(t)-delta function (your equation with 0 in the right part is viable only for steady case). Lets say y1=i, y2=i' then we have 2 ODE
y2' + 4y2 + 4y1 = n(t)
y1'=y2

and the initial conditions is i(0)=i'(0)=0.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:36 GMT
#8
*mind blown*
I think I just found the reason not to pass the lab report tomorrow.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 16:52 GMT
#9
Back from work, seems like 15vs1 said all before me
GL y0 !
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 01 2010 02:25 GMT
#10
Ok I'm an idiot, you can solve the 2nd order ode without figuring out the value of i'(0) by simple observation..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
21:00
WardiTV Not-Summer Championshi
ByuN vs SHIN
MaxPax vs Solar
Clem vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
Rogue vs TBD
IntoTheiNu 626
WardiTV414
ComeBackTV 348
TaKeTV 181
IndyStarCraft 101
Rex79
Liquipedia
CranKy Ducklings
19:00
Sea Duckling Open #151
CranKy Ducklings86
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech154
IndyStarCraft 101
Rex 79
Codebar 63
MindelVK 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 57736
Calm 6566
Rain 1852
Free 1131
Jaedong 719
BeSt 592
FanTaSy 324
Larva 304
Hyuk 255
Rush 229
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 165
Last 143
Zeus 141
actioN 128
Mind 116
ZerO 95
Pusan 88
Mong 86
Soulkey 68
Sharp 45
Bale 44
Sea.KH 44
ToSsGirL 40
JYJ 34
sSak 32
Killer 30
Yoon 26
Shine 22
Hm[arnc] 19
Aegong 16
sorry 16
sOs 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 14
Sacsri 14
Movie 12
Dota 2
Dendi809
XcaliburYe300
Counter-Strike
fl0m4307
kennyS621
byalli529
SPUNJ346
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor62
Other Games
summit1g10385
FrodaN1986
singsing1785
B2W.Neo657
Lowko321
KnowMe122
ViBE71
ZerO(Twitch)11
CosmosSc2 7
Railgan7
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• ChaeLyn 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2314
Upcoming Events
IPSL
4h 33m
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
BSL
7h 33m
TerrOr vs OyAji
UltrA vs Gosudark
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 33m
WardiTV Invitational
23h 33m
IPSL
1d 4h
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
1d 7h
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
1d 21h
WardiTV Weekly
1d 23h
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-12
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
IEM Kraków 2027
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.