• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:10
CEST 21:10
KST 04:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War565.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202621Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
Fantasy returning? TL Sidebar missing streams Rollback Netcode in Brood War BW General Discussion Repalyzer - replay analysis app for StarCraft: Rem
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9498 users

Circuit Help

Blogs > SilverSkyLark
Post a Reply
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 09:28:40
June 30 2010 09:22 GMT
#1
Ok, this was supposed to be an easy laboratory experiment, which is actually more of a simulation, but I haven't figured it out for some reason.

So we were asked to simulate this circuit over at LT SpiceIV:
[image loading]

Tapping the voltage probe above the capacitor and tapping the current probe on the capacitor will give the following graph:
[image loading]
(V(n003) means the voltage at node 3)

Analysis would be easy as this is a second order circuit, but we (me and my classmates) were rather puzzled as these were the questions that came after the instructed simulation:

1. Generate the 1st order ordinary linear differential equations (ODE) for Fig. 1. Solve for V(n003) the voltage across capacitor.

2. Transform your 1st order system of linear ODEs into Laplace Transform and solve for L{Vn003)}. Then solve for L-1(Vn003) to get V(n003).

3. Compare your results in item 1 with item 2.

4. Derive the current across the capacitor.

5. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot V(n003). Compare your result with Fig 3 V(n003).

6. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot I(C1). Compare your result with Fig 3 I(C1).


You might be surprised as well because we were asked for a first order ODE, when the circuit clearly is a second order ODE. The second order ODE can be obtained by using KVL around the circuit, giving:

4i + Li' + i/C integral(i dt) = 9

and differentiating every term to remove the integral gives:

Li'' + 4i' + i/C = 0

substituting values from the circuit:

i'' + 4i' + 4i = 0

Solving for the natural response and the forced response (which will be useless since r(x) is 0) would then give:

i(t) = Ae^-2t + Bte^-2t

If it was the usual ODE question, values of i(0) and i'(0) would be given in order to solve for constants A and B. But in this setup, you'll only manage to get i(0) and i'(0) will be hard to find. Now you may ask why am I solving for the current when number 1 asks for the voltage across the capacitor - since the current is constant (series circuit), I can solve for it then simply plug the equation of the constant into the voltage equation for a capacitor then there I have it.

I guess what our professor wants is an ODE that would give the curve for the voltage (duh)...

Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).

If anyone has a clue on how I'm supposed to get a first order ODE to get the voltage please do help. I'm feeling really stupid here because I'm starting to get the feeling that this is supposed to be real easy.


P.S. the DC Steady State would also work fine, it will give the voltage across the capacitor at t = 0- and t = 0+ but it won't give the curve we want.

*
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 10:17 GMT
#2
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1354 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 10:32:00
June 30 2010 10:21 GMT
#3
still working on the other parts as i need to refresh my memory of how analogue components work :D but for now:

On June 30 2010 18:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:


Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).



nah on second order laplace transforms

y(t)+ dy(t)/dt + d2y(t)/dt2 = x(t)+ dx(t)/dt + d2x(t)/dt2

just transforms nicely into Y(s) + sY(s) + s2Y(s) = X(s) + sX(s) + s2X(s) without needing all the x' and x'' terms.

edit: actually maybe take that with a grain of salt, i just realised it might be that we implicitly always assume it will be intially 0 in control systems.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 11:51:36
June 30 2010 11:49 GMT
#4
On June 30 2010 19:17 JacobDaKung wrote:
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.

What two different equations?
The Current equation for the Capacitor and the Voltage equation for the Inductor?

Sorry I'm really lost for some reason..:|


and yes the Laplace Transform looks nice...the only problem is that the right side of the transform is zero..
Y(s^2 + 4s + 4) = 0..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 13:06:40
June 30 2010 12:56 GMT
#5
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:01 GMT
#6
On June 30 2010 21:56 15vs1 wrote:
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.

How do I break down the 2nd order ODE into two 1st order ones?

And yes, if i'(0) = 0 (but still the value of i'(0) is not given, though i(0) = 0), it would mean that there was infinite amount of current that passed through the circuit when the switch was turned on - which is a physical impossibility because of the conservation of charge.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
June 30 2010 13:29 GMT
#7
In your case we have equation i'' + 4i' + 4i = 9*delta(t), delta(t)-delta function (your equation with 0 in the right part is viable only for steady case). Lets say y1=i, y2=i' then we have 2 ODE
y2' + 4y2 + 4y1 = n(t)
y1'=y2

and the initial conditions is i(0)=i'(0)=0.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:36 GMT
#8
*mind blown*
I think I just found the reason not to pass the lab report tomorrow.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 16:52 GMT
#9
Back from work, seems like 15vs1 said all before me
GL y0 !
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 01 2010 02:25 GMT
#10
Ok I'm an idiot, you can solve the 2nd order ode without figuring out the value of i'(0) by simple observation..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: Ladder Tournament
04:00
#3 - $100
LiquipediaDiscussion
AI Arena Tournament
02:00
Swiss - Round 5
Laughngamez YouTube
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Liquid`TLO 260
BRAT_OK 104
JuggernautJason89
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 912
Shuttle 636
Zeus 87
soO 43
Hyun 41
ToSsGirL 32
scan(afreeca) 24
ZZZero.O 22
Sacsri 8
Dota 2
qojqva2041
420jenkins622
canceldota31
Counter-Strike
fl0m5396
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby2992
Liquid`Hasu525
Other Games
FrodaN987
KnowMe419
Pyrionflax169
Livibee166
QueenE67
ToD29
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick605
StarCraft 2
angryscii 37
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 86
• 3DClanTV 56
• Adnapsc2 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach107
• 80smullet 21
• niya90s 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Counter-Strike
• C_a_k_e 1868
Other Games
• imaqtpie725
• Shiphtur642
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 50m
Patches Events
19h 50m
BSL Open Qualifier
23h 50m
BSL Open Qualifier
23h 50m
OSC
1d 3h
OSC
1d 16h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.