• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:12
CEST 23:12
KST 06:12
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies18Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)5Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO4 & Finals Preview5[ASL21] Ro4 Preview: On Course12
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double0Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win1Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !18Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO4 & Finals Preview Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 527 Hell Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 526 Rubber and Glue Mutation # 525 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
25 Years Since Brood War Patch 1.08 (Spoiler) ASL21 Winner's Interview vespene.gg — BW replays in browser [ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies UA StarCraft: Mawin (T) vs hanniGan (P) Showmatch
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software)
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esports Organizations: Raisi…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1350 users

Circuit Help

Blogs > SilverSkyLark
Post a Reply
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 09:28:40
June 30 2010 09:22 GMT
#1
Ok, this was supposed to be an easy laboratory experiment, which is actually more of a simulation, but I haven't figured it out for some reason.

So we were asked to simulate this circuit over at LT SpiceIV:
[image loading]

Tapping the voltage probe above the capacitor and tapping the current probe on the capacitor will give the following graph:
[image loading]
(V(n003) means the voltage at node 3)

Analysis would be easy as this is a second order circuit, but we (me and my classmates) were rather puzzled as these were the questions that came after the instructed simulation:

1. Generate the 1st order ordinary linear differential equations (ODE) for Fig. 1. Solve for V(n003) the voltage across capacitor.

2. Transform your 1st order system of linear ODEs into Laplace Transform and solve for L{Vn003)}. Then solve for L-1(Vn003) to get V(n003).

3. Compare your results in item 1 with item 2.

4. Derive the current across the capacitor.

5. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot V(n003). Compare your result with Fig 3 V(n003).

6. Using Scilab, for t=[0:.5:20], plot I(C1). Compare your result with Fig 3 I(C1).


You might be surprised as well because we were asked for a first order ODE, when the circuit clearly is a second order ODE. The second order ODE can be obtained by using KVL around the circuit, giving:

4i + Li' + i/C integral(i dt) = 9

and differentiating every term to remove the integral gives:

Li'' + 4i' + i/C = 0

substituting values from the circuit:

i'' + 4i' + 4i = 0

Solving for the natural response and the forced response (which will be useless since r(x) is 0) would then give:

i(t) = Ae^-2t + Bte^-2t

If it was the usual ODE question, values of i(0) and i'(0) would be given in order to solve for constants A and B. But in this setup, you'll only manage to get i(0) and i'(0) will be hard to find. Now you may ask why am I solving for the current when number 1 asks for the voltage across the capacitor - since the current is constant (series circuit), I can solve for it then simply plug the equation of the constant into the voltage equation for a capacitor then there I have it.

I guess what our professor wants is an ODE that would give the curve for the voltage (duh)...

Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).

If anyone has a clue on how I'm supposed to get a first order ODE to get the voltage please do help. I'm feeling really stupid here because I'm starting to get the feeling that this is supposed to be real easy.


P.S. the DC Steady State would also work fine, it will give the voltage across the capacitor at t = 0- and t = 0+ but it won't give the curve we want.

*
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 10:17 GMT
#2
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1296 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 10:32:00
June 30 2010 10:21 GMT
#3
still working on the other parts as i need to refresh my memory of how analogue components work :D but for now:

On June 30 2010 18:22 SilverSkyLark wrote:


Or did I get things wrong guys? Because number 2 asks us to solve for the same 1st order ODE using Laplace. If I use Laplace on the second order ODE, I'd have problems right away since the transform of i'' would ask for the value of i'(0).



nah on second order laplace transforms

y(t)+ dy(t)/dt + d2y(t)/dt2 = x(t)+ dx(t)/dt + d2x(t)/dt2

just transforms nicely into Y(s) + sY(s) + s2Y(s) = X(s) + sX(s) + s2X(s) without needing all the x' and x'' terms.

edit: actually maybe take that with a grain of salt, i just realised it might be that we implicitly always assume it will be intially 0 in control systems.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 11:51:36
June 30 2010 11:49 GMT
#4
On June 30 2010 19:17 JacobDaKung wrote:
You are not sopposed to connect the two different equations, thus getting a system of two first order ODE.
I am at work at and will return later in order to be more precise.

What two different equations?
The Current equation for the Capacitor and the Voltage equation for the Inductor?

Sorry I'm really lost for some reason..:|


and yes the Laplace Transform looks nice...the only problem is that the right side of the transform is zero..
Y(s^2 + 4s + 4) = 0..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-30 13:06:40
June 30 2010 12:56 GMT
#5
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:01 GMT
#6
On June 30 2010 21:56 15vs1 wrote:
You should represent your 2nd order ODE as a system of two first order ODEs (take note of the plural form of equation in your questions). You will need i'(0) anyway and it equals 0 because i'(t) cant have discontinuity if circuit have a reel.

How do I break down the 2nd order ODE into two 1st order ones?

And yes, if i'(0) = 0 (but still the value of i'(0) is not given, though i(0) = 0), it would mean that there was infinite amount of current that passed through the circuit when the switch was turned on - which is a physical impossibility because of the conservation of charge.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
June 30 2010 13:29 GMT
#7
In your case we have equation i'' + 4i' + 4i = 9*delta(t), delta(t)-delta function (your equation with 0 in the right part is viable only for steady case). Lets say y1=i, y2=i' then we have 2 ODE
y2' + 4y2 + 4y1 = n(t)
y1'=y2

and the initial conditions is i(0)=i'(0)=0.
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 30 2010 13:36 GMT
#8
*mind blown*
I think I just found the reason not to pass the lab report tomorrow.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
JacobDaKung
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Sweden132 Posts
June 30 2010 16:52 GMT
#9
Back from work, seems like 15vs1 said all before me
GL y0 !
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 01 2010 02:25 GMT
#10
Ok I'm an idiot, you can solve the 2nd order ode without figuring out the value of i'(0) by simple observation..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
19:30
Patches' Patch Clash #7
RotterdaM427
Liquipedia
BSL
19:00
RO8 - Day 4
DragOn vs Dewalt
TerrOr vs OyAji
ZZZero.O342
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 427
JuggernautJason105
ProTech85
EmSc Tv 20
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24825
ZZZero.O 342
Dewaltoss 71
Zeus 59
NaDa 18
League of Legends
JimRising 478
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu397
Other Games
summit1g7871
tarik_tv6860
gofns6551
FrodaN4778
Grubby3855
Liquid`RaSZi2381
shahzam417
KnowMe350
QueenE85
kaitlyn34
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1021
BasetradeTV82
StarCraft 2
angryscii 36
EmSc Tv 20
EmSc2Tv 20
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 50
• Reevou 9
• musti20045 4
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1804
Other Games
• imaqtpie1091
• WagamamaTV409
• Shiphtur238
• tFFMrPink 15
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 48m
Universe Titan Cup
13h 48m
Rogue vs Percival
Wardi Open
14h 48m
Monday Night Weeklies
18h 48m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 13h
GSL
2 days
herO vs Classic
Cure vs Clem
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL
3 days
Maru vs SHIN
Zoun vs Rogue
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Spring Champion…
3 days
SKillous vs Strange
Lambo vs Strange
Ryung vs Strange
Lambo vs Ryung
Ryung vs SKillous
Lambo vs SKillous
Replay Cast
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
TBD vs SHIN
TBD vs Rogue
IPSL
5 days
ZZZero vs WorsT
Julia vs eOnzErG
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Dragon vs Artosis
dxtr13 vs Hawk
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W8
2026 GSL S1
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

2026 KK StarCraft Pro League
BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
KK 2v2 League Season 1
YSL S3
Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals

Upcoming

CSCL: Masked Kings S4
Escore Tournament S2: King of Kings
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
Bounty Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.